A320 DC ESS BUS FAULT after takeoff, would you return?

[IFLY_INDIGO]

In case of DC ESS BUS FAULT after takeoff in clear weather, would you turn back to the airport?

It hits the communication very badly. RMP 1, ACP 1 and ACP 2 are lost. only one pilot can use ACP 3 at a time.

Blue hydraulic system and ATHR is also lost.

flight interphone is also lost.

[IFixPlanes]

ESS = essential = question answered :E

[cosmick251]

if I my memory serves me correctly are even more systems affected.
But besides that, just loosing almost the entire com constitutes a high-risk scenario. Why would you consider to continue the flight?? :eek:

[mikedreamer787]

Depends on what airport you're departing from. All things
being equal, if its some 1500m craphole out in the middle
of nowhere and all you've lost is DC ESS, I suggest one
would land at the next suitable airport where there's some
engineering facilities and a longer runway available. Course
this relies on the circumstances and situation at the time.

If its departing major base then the question is moot.

[Natstrackalpha]

We`ve had this before. You still have comms with DC Essential. Find it in search, on here - you`ll appreciate it more then. I`ve posted to this question at least four million times - well, twice.

[Cough]

NatstrackA

Did anyone say you have lost total comms? Its not nice, but comms are still there in limited form - particularly for the PIC.

However, would you continue?

I'm in the MD787 camp....

[CptSilva]

Look below, do you really want to continue with the flight?

http://img854.imageshack.us/img854/1898/861m.jpg

http://img580.imageshack.us/img580/2161/n4m8.jpg


Safe to get back on the ground, even if you are overweight you still can arrange same time to burn some fuel, but at least you'll be overhead the airfield.

My two cents

[latetonite]

I do not fly Modern Airbus equipment, but having a look at the above QRH snippet, and knowing you are talking about an essential bus, I hope it is not a captain who poses the question.

[NigelOnDraft]

Not mentioned above is the significance of the various LAND ASAP messages (or their absence). Nor the difference between a "stable" situation and a "dynamic" one.

Once you have worked out how to fly the aircraft, it is pretty easy to fly. You then need to work out how (and where) to land it.

The fact it is called an "Essential Bus" is the root cause of the problem - too much wired through one place.

So to me, I would not want to return ASAP to field of departure. I would want to fly for as long as needed to understand what I really do have / not have (see Note 2), and land only after that period of time, and at a suitable airfield with a good plan of how to do the approach/landing. That might be the point of departure, it might be destination, it might be somewhere else. I would not unnecessarily delay a landing, since a lot of redundancy has been lost, and a further failure, whilst not life threatening, might make life more difficult.

IIRC from the Sim, there is nothing "urgent" about getting back on the ground. Once you have worked how "how" to fly/manage it is quite easy. It is a great training exercise in CRM. I suspect in the air it is even easier...

Current A319/320/3212 P1

[Max Angle]

Good plan, gets my vote.

[mikedreamer787]

I hope it is not a captain who poses the question.

I've seen the OP's other posts in the past and I think
he's merely a cadet or junior FO on transition.

[mcdhu]

Not mentioned so far - auto drop of pax 02 masks is inop - DC ESS SHED.
Mask Man On should work - AC ESS SHED.
Land!!

[Natstrackalpha]

Well, back to the drawing board!!

No, I would not continue - not with all this stuff inop. I would be happy to get it back on the ground a.s.p.

Thank you also ECAM surprise.

Actually, who gives a :mad:! Let us pick the bones out of this one.

Blast me, if you must - am, going for the big one!

Fly the aircraft, manual thrust and handling. Ap gone. and a/t too. Speed?

1/. don`t climb above 10,000 or 14,000 depending on which regs you are using. subject, some might say, to MSA - oooooh, bad.

Fly the aircraft.

Having got yourself a nice piece of airspace to hang around in try not to a get a fire or b pick up ice. Its a lodda fun! Needless to say, avoid high ground.

Fly the aircraft

Establish alt/level on baro when check and confirmed , wonder if we have rad alt . . ?

2/. just reading the QRH . . . .

Fly the aircraft - at least make sure somebody is.

Nice! No blue elec pump and no blue system, therefore do we have a RAT? Well, lets drop the RAT and maybe go for RAT MAN on.

Fly the aircaft.

Hyd Firel valves engine 1 +2 would be really interesting up here and may be funny down on the ground trying to shutdown the engines too.

Fly the aircraft - we got any nav? Maps?

fly the aircraft - find the suitable airport close by . . .

fly the aircraft - check for ice.

Acutally, panic over.

Happy so far. Vectors for a CATII light on remaining RMPs/ACPs may may not light up . . .

fly the aircraft, managed to rig up some form of comms. If not squwk 7600 or even 77 due to the urgency of me wanting to get in . . .

Hmm, might try dishing out blankets and sw off HOT Air Valve, don`t want Mr. Avionics to get too hot under the collar . . . If is winter - then might get a tad chilly for a bit

fly the aircraft. check for ice?

Might have a fun time trying to look at an SD page . . .

fly the aircraft - check for ice?

OK, get Nelly into the flightdeck and tell her we are going back due to a technical problem and to dish out blankets if it gets cold.

Figure out the landg dist from the QRH. Figure from WAT.

Happy, nice big fat juicy runway, long enough? - yea, excellent,

Fly the aircraft -

brief the approach or get thus briefed by those who flyeth not.

As this is not a dual hyd failure there is not real attitude discussion here - but as we have one reverser then assymetric reverser would not be the best policy - though not impossible, with the brakes debate-able we don`t want to be fighting an assymetric thrust reverser - p.s. if it rains, just use the wipers - . . . .may give auto brake a chance but if not prepare and brief for alternate braking subject to landin runway perf.

Prepared as always to deal with windsheer, ice and I think we`ll call to start the approach as briefed,

fly the aircraft. check for ice.

Not a really bad sit. We`ve got the other fac, we`ve got the secs, double check Cabin press, may have to manually selct A/D elev - lest we send the doors blasting through the terminal (only kidding)

Am happy this will be a pretty good landing. Looking for a long approach or a long final depnding on location and ground etc.

So, I`ll call vectors if not map or gwet somebody to navigate - fly the aircraft.

Approach land. Inform Ground, we may, may, be taxying in with engines running same for disembark - so no ground personnel on the ramp near the aircraft, until we have figured out how to shut down the engines . . .

There it is.

Get pax off while sorting out a shutdown.

Incoming?

[NigelOnDraft]

1/. don`t climb above 10,000 or 14,000 depending on which regs you are usingWhy..... ?

[Yancey Slide]

"Why?"

Pressurization inop?

[mikedreamer787]

Why this apparent "**** we're all f**ked!" attitude with
some posters about a loss of DC ESS? If that were so
then Airbus wouldn't have gained certification of their
fancy-gadgeted buses.

Its a busy time with a loss of an essential lecky bus but
it isn't the end of the world - even in an Airbus.

Perhaps its because its got the scary word 'Essential' in
it. Maybe the manufacturer should substitute that word
with 'Priority' - eg ELEC DC PRIORITY BUS FAULT.

Natstrack I'll have whatever it is you're smokin'. ;)

[Craggenmore]

Depends how long the flight is.........

Do the loos flush with a DC ESS Bus fail.

[mikedreamer787]

Ecam S try a combined AC and DC ESS fault next time you're
in the box. This exercise truly sorts out the men from the boys
with a fervent hope by all participants afterwards it'll never ever
happen in real life...... :bored:

[WhyByFlier]

I posted it last time but this video is quite nice if you're flying an MSN that doesn't lose all ACPs:

A320 DC ESS BUS fault - YouTube

For the MSNs that have all ACPs connected to the AMU see the following report from one our aircraft:

http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cfm?file=/4-2009_G-EZAC.pdf

You don't need to have had a heads up so much on a failure like this. You need to strictly follow AVIATE (try both APs, try the ATHR, clear THR LOCK), Navigate (continue on the flight planned route), Communicate (Try all headsets, speakers, ACPs, PTTs, Switching and boxes) - if the comms are giving you hassle and distracting too much give it 7600 and forget for a while, ECAM - Work through it. The engines are still turning, the wings are still attached - take 'er easy. DODAR it, Assign tasks, NITS it, set up, brief, land. Be like the I.T. guy off the office in his go karting story...... 'What were you worried about?'

BBC Office UK I.T GUY Simon | BRUCE LEE | GO KARTING - YouTube

[mikedreamer787]

It's amazing how a combination of failures can lead to one big problem.

One thing I learned very early in the training peace on
Airbuses - write down the original failure somewhere
handy or you might get so caught up in sub-failures
that you will probably forget what the hell it was that
failed to begin with!

[Natstrackalpha]

ECAM surprise - you are my hero.

787 you are naturally horrid! Referring of course to your comments about me smoking fish over a camp fire, thats silly.

whybe . . there talks a true pilot . . .


Quote:
Ecam S try a combined AC and DC ESS fault next time you're
in the box. This exercise truly sorts out the men from the boys
with a fervent hope by all participants afterwards it'll never ever
happen in real life...... http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/wbored.gifIs that the one where there is no solution but you still go through all the hoops? - and land of course.

[mikedreamer787]

Is that the one where there is no solution but you
still go through all the hoops? - and land of course.

Do it yourself in the box Natstrack and see for yourself.
Lose AC ESS first then have DC ESS die after clearing
up ECAM Status. Hint - have a very cluey FO sitting in
the right seat too. Believe me you'll really need one!

And afterwards you'll pray that it never happens for real! :\

[Natstrackalpha]

I hear ya 787 and I will do so, not bin there yet!

We have got the bat and rat though . . . ?
would this little ex be akin to dual genny fail? Nope, because the AC ESS and DC Ess would be powered by the RAT through the EMRG . . . .generator(the blu hyd one)

[mikedreamer787]

Yep you've got your bat, rat and 3 AC gennys.
Got all your buses except AC ESS, DC ESS
and the sheds.

Have fun! ;)

[Natstrackalpha]

787

Hi, so far, I`ve got no:-
pax oxy
F/O PFD
Capt PFD
Capt ND
>
DC out
FCU 1
Wing AI
SFFc 1
FD
AP
A/T
Terrain
GPWS
Transponder? . . Here`s a thing, if we have no AC Essential do we have sidestick . . ? If not then are we landing Mech back up? If things don`t switch, then, we have to gravity lower the gear as that won`t work either, nor will we get it back up again once down.
>This is different to a dual genny fail or dual engine fail as at least in these two failures the busses are there for when you get the RAT and/or APU fired up (the latter assuming fuel).
No Rev, in fact, no anything that needs a switch on the AC system.
>
Would the pumps work . . ? Tanks, gravity feed the fuel then . . .
No RAD Alt . . .?

Is there a book somewhere listing all the services which are provided by the AC Essential?
DC Essential too.
>
however, depite the Essential being fried, I notice there are still one or two things which ar AC powered that can work - if they do not go through the AC Essential Bus. for example you have bat (for a small time) which through TRs can give you AC. I MEAN THROUGH THE STATIC INVERTOR CAN GIVE YOU AC (picky City)
>
Also if you still have fuel in the Centre Tank, I assume it stays there?
Realizing I will get all the books in class - I am still a bit sad that I did not pick up fried AC Essentail + DC Essential on the bukshi CBT.

"Good evening - can I help you"
`Yes, I`ll have the Fried Essentail` ` . . . and I`ll have the DC Essentail Bus, does that come with rat, bats and hydraulics . . .?`:uhoh:

[mikedreamer787]

Your research in fairly close to the money Natstrack but I
again recommend this particular form of self abuse in the
sim. You can live without FD A/T EGPWS etc - its that
ECAM (and trying to read it) that's gonna cause all your
hair to fall out. Keeping the sky above and ground below
is the easy part - you still got your SBY ADI/full ISIS.....

Or have you? :suspect:
.
.
.
.
Sorry - just messin' with yer head! :}

No point in pulling out the RAT - what the hell is it gonna
do except supply live electrons to dead buses...or does it
also supply something else?
.
.
.
.
Nah...just messin' with your head again!

Point is you still have all services off your other buses and
that's what you'll be using to the fullest. Do not forget the
new QRH format for runway length etc does not take into
account multiple failures anymore (remember the asterisk
and non-asterisk combos?) so its an arm-wrestling match
with the books and why I recommended you have a very
cluey FO. You'll be too busy flying the thing and trying to
work out how you'll get back down through the murk to
terra firma in one piece.

Is there a book somewhere listing all the services which
is provded by the AC Essential? DC Essential too.

Not that I know of. I went through the back of each system
chapter in Vol 1 for its Essential source and wrote them all
down (I had done this for each aircraft type since my DC9
days). After losing both ESS buses what you're left with is
split into 3 categories - not much, very little, bugger all.

Good luck. Let me know how it goes. :ok:

[Natstrackalpha]

Thank you so much!

I will!

And, thank you for your time and input/ hopefully its on the FCOM when I get it - (I lost the :mad: AOM! can you believe that . . ?)

Thanks again.

[Natstrackalpha]

Thanks 787
and thanks ECAM.

[compressor stall]

that's what you'll be using to the fullest. Do not forget the
new QRH format for runway length etc does not take into
account multiple failures anymore

Why does your landing distance increase with an AC ESS failure?

[Natstrackalpha]

Well, it could be that we have no
anti-skid,
no autobrake,



still learning . . not sure about spoilers, unless. . . no, maybe no spoilers . . . either . . .

- anyway,
no reverse thrust, that`ll do it too
. . . .oooh, no nz wheel steering, (so forget turning off before the end . . . ) - plop.


The fact we came gently in on the approach with no sidestick, possibly no FCU - that makes any sense, or does anything will have FMA though if you have PFD that is.
pitch with Man Trim
L&R with rudder.
manual thrust. . . . . who needs a long runway anyway? . . . http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/smile.gif and really good batteries. . . .http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/badteeth.gif We might have manual braking . . . , yes, I`ll go for Manual braking at 1,000 psi so watch it especially with no anti-skid.
Just fly it like a normal aeroplane with the rudder and the trim wheel and the manual thrust, maybe - I can`t wait - it`ll be my Christmas present, beats Lego!

[compressor stall]

There's nothing in an AC ESS BUS FAULT (or SHED) that will increase your landing distance.

PS. I got lost in your desultory ramblings after line 3.

[Natstrackalpha]

So buy yourself a map then!

[compressor stall]

So the skipper loses his screens and the ecam screens too.

CM2 flies, manual thrust. Can still shoot ILS with FD.

Audio switching to 3. Run the ecam on the CM2 ND when he doesn't need the map.

Direct law when gear down.

Not a nice day, but was expecting worse?

[sonicbum]

So the skipper loses his screens and the ecam screens too.

CM2 flies, manual thrust. Can still shoot ILS with FD.

Audio switching to 3. Run the ecam on the CM2 ND when he doesn't need the map.

Direct law when gear down.

Not a nice day, but was expecting worse?

DC ESS BUS FAULT

[compressor stall]

Yes.. It was. And the AC ESS. :confused:

[Citation2]

You are going too far , there is no "IF" scenarios , otherwise you will never take off. What if you loose both engines on take off ? Or both sidesticks and both engines?

DC ESS BUS is clear and straightforward and does not need to be over excited.
The aircraft is perfectly flyable , you still have power on both engines , automation is available (except A/TH who cares ?)

You are still RVSM capable and can communicate . No Alternate no direct law.
You can still still enjoy your meal on your your tray table once ecam is completed .

Why would you like to aggravate the situation when the manufacturer/ Airbus does not say Land as soon as possible?

If I took off from home base , I would consider a come back , consulting MCC as not to ground an aircraft at destination .
In-flight coming back to destination ? There is a fuel penalty factor to consider , Weather checked? ( cat 2 in DC Ess) and landing distance permitting I would continue the flight , unless you are based in Skiathos.

No there is no what if AC ESS fails next , and then I have a depressurisation with Cabin oxygen mask not working along with DC ESS. IF and IF and IF ... If you stayed at home or came late at work maybe they would change the aircraft and you would not have a DC ESS.

[Metro man]

The FBW Airbus is heavily dependent on electrics and hydraulics. A steam driven airliner can continue to fly with control cables, the Bus can't that's why there is a high level of redundancy built in.

Once things are degraded to that extent I'd be using the remaining capability to get back on the ground as soon as practical, not necessarily back to my point of departure if the conditions were marginal, continuing to destination in good weather with maintenance available on arrival is a suitable option. I wouldn't be overflying too many major airports on my way to a small outstation though.

[FlightDetent]

FLY_INDIGO asked if we would return. One of the problems with answering is, that indeed there are airports to which we would not return even being on fire. :E The decision process is somewhat complex and give widely varied results.

The core question seems to be, how do we perceive the urgency of DC ESS fault. As a qualified pilot with experience
- I have no idea what really happened in the E&E bay
- I have insufficient information and no skills to run technical risk assesment of the power grid's state
- I have no idea what is the next weakest link keeping me airborne in a controlled manner

People who built the aircraft and actually do understand the three items above, decided it is good to fly with no time constraints. But they are not sitting in it, true. :sad:

For me:
1. Aviate, navigate, communicate, and manage systems, in that order.
2. Involve other people (resouces), carefully listen to what challenges the situation brings to them.
3. Take the action with most margins which satisfies most of their concerns.

Having said all that, I personally would really like to be at gate within 60 minutes. Fortunately my area of OPS provides plenty options to do so.

regards,
FD.

[PENKO]

Metroman, I'll leave the decision to divert or not to you. But the plane is perfectly flyable. There is no need to get panicky re 'The FBW Airbus is heavily dependent on electrics and hydraulics. A steam driven airliner can continue to fly with control cables, the Bus can't that's why there is a high level of redundancy built in.'

Flight controlwhise you still have three (yes, three) hydraulic systems, four sets of spoilers, elevators, stabilizers, rudders, ailerons...all with full redundancy.
There is nothing in the list of inop systems that raises my heartbeat.