APS Is it worth the money?

[rutan around]

This question has been posed by a few people who knew that I had attended the Caboolture Engine Management Seminar earlier this year. My short answer was 'Yes - in spades'
These Advanced Pilots Seminars are put on by General Aviation Modifications Inc. the mob that make GAMI injectors. The quantity and quality of the information presented was astounding. With too many hours behind big bore Continentals I thought there wouldn't be much extra I could learn. I was very wrong and had a number of old wives tales ( OWT's ) well and truly discredited.
Any pilot who wants to know how mixture affects timing and peak internal cylinder pressure and how these are related to engine power, economy and longevity should consider catching one of these seminars.
Anyone who believes lead is needed to lubricate and cushion valves should attend.
Anyone who believes the that everything in the owners manual is good for your engine should attend.
And so on and so forth .....
What I found best about it was that all the information was backed up with modern data, not passed-down information from dubious sources.
Apart from anything else, the information learned can lead to great savings in the operation of an engine. Knowledge on interpretation of what the gauges are telling you in abnormal situations could save not only the engine but also your life. At the very least proper interpretation of the instruments can quickly point your LAME to a problem area, saving many $$$$$.
Just my 2 bob's worth. Cheers, RA

[Jack Ranga]

Yes, all it takes is an open mind. It's all in the data :ok:

[Wally Mk2]

Interesting how these infernal combustion engines even lasted this long b4 these seminars came to light with the fancy new stuff they have invented.
Am sure there's lots of extra info about these days regarding operating the infernal combustion donk but I think they have done a pretty good job (&still are) up 'till now where such info was simply learning by experience & OWT's which I wouldn't discount them all verbatim. There's always someone out there trying to invent a better 'mousetrap':)
I did a few 1000 hrs in recip donks without any of this 'updated' knowledge & I'm still here with no busted engines under my belt & I probably 'invented' some of my own way of doing things way back then but wouldn't remember any of it now & would be lucky to know how to start a C150:):)

It was & still is a widely known belief that lead was for lubrication within an engine hence the liquid lead additive they brought out (for cars & promoted it )when the octane rating of fuel dropped some years ago, if it also makes a diff to timing them no argument there as often an 'invention' also has other side effects for want of a better word.
Just some more thinking here not meant to be an answer:)

Wmk2

[peterc005]

I'm sure the seminar is good, but $995 seems over-priced.

In my profession I usually just buy the text book or use online references rather than seminars. Despite the sales pitch, expensive seminars are rarely a good "investment".

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

Nothing I would enjoy more than the opportunity to dump a bit of **** on my mate Jaba ............... but in this case I just can't!

Like many, I have spent more than a couple of hrs behind big bangers - operated them as I was told, or by-the-book, or by some combination of Forkintuition and common sense. Never had a problem and have seen a number of engines through to full time without a hitch.

And I have even operated them the APS way!

I too paid my money and fronted the Caboolture course - learnt heaps!

I highly recommend the program!

Dr :8

PS: I wonder if anyone has ever attended an APS course, either in the US or Oz, and come away feeling that they had wasted their money? I doubt it!

[rutan around]

I'm sure the seminar is good, but $995 seems over-priced.

In my profession I usually just buy the text book or use online references rather than seminars. Despite the sales pitch, expensive seminars are rarely a good "investment". 26th Sep 2013 10:36
Peter,
I've always been careful with my money to the extent some of my less kind friends accuse me of still having my lunch money from my first day at school. I would normally agree with your entire post.
However I took a punt and attended the APS mainly because the weren't selling anything. It was the best organized, information rich and professionally researched seminar I've ever attended and I've been to a few.
To answer FTDKs question I personally do not know of anyone who thinks they wasted their money.I know a few who reckoned they had to work too hard including me.

Never had a problem and have seen a number of engines through to full time without a hitch.

I guess if the manufacturer sets the TBO low enough most engines will make it.http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/badteeth.gif

R3350 engines as used on Connies eventually had TBOs around 3,500 hrs once they were operated how APS are advocating. At first the R3350s were only achieving 200 - 600 hr TBOs
Why not our IO 520s with 3,500 hr TBOs ? Was 1950s metallurgy superior to that of today or were their operating methods superior ?
Cheers RA

[haydnc]

In my profession I usually just buy the text book or use online references rather than seminars. Despite the sales pitch, expensive seminars are rarely a good "investment".

Peterc you CAN just buy the books, go forth and read. Have a look in the APS store, there is the online edition, a fraction of the price. I did last year with they offered $100 cash back. Good exchange rate also helped at the time. There is also a sneak peak that you can have a look at. No further excuses required!

[LeadSled]

Interesting how these infernal combustion engines even lasted this long b4 these seminars came to light with the fancy new stuff they have invented.

Wally Mk2,
As another poster says, there is nothing new here, we operated 0-540s etc LOP, low rpm, high boost ( as per the manufacturer's then data) in the '60s, as did the operators of the big radials actually since the 1940s --- think the Qantas "double daylight" services in the Catalinas.

It just that this knowledge seemed to have been mislaid in Australia for a generation or two, as the ignoratii have gradually taken over pilot training and CASA.

Tootle pip!!

PS: We did operate O/IO-540 well over 3000 hours TBO, the best I remember was 3600 and still going. Having warm air filters as well as cold air was a small factor, but "biggi" was LOP ---- even without the saving on fuel consumed ---- which is rather significant at European prices.

[Wally Mk2]

'Leady' I agree with you 100%, that's what I am trying to convey here also (nothing new here). Many an engine has been run quite successfully too well b4 these idea's came to light:-)

Am sure the modern day info will help & change the way some might operate those infernal engines but compared to the zillions of them out there turning over as we speak compared to these that attended & or read this material it will make very little difference in the grand scheme of things I believe other than for peace of mind.:)

Eg: You buy a S/H machine that has had a 1000+hrs or so on it run as per the OWT's & then someone now 'educated' comes along & runs it as a new owner as per the new world thinking does that mean it will run longer/better?
We'll never know as no two engines are exactly the same in the time they are expected to last with & without the new thinking!:)

Welcome to the revolution:)

Wmk2

[Jabawocky]

There is plenty of evidence to suggest that the better run an engine the better it has a chance of serving longer.

The biggest gains from an APS course are two fold. The first being operating either ROP or LOP at the appropriate settings that will give maximum life expectancy. this alone has massive financial implications in fuel burn and longevity.

The second and most important is the use of an engine monitor. these devices have the potential to unlock many opportunities to make a difference between the uninformed Vs. the informed.

Have a read of this article. Page 16 http://www.abs.org.au/uploads/March%202013%20Web.pdf

ROI is the key.:ok:

8-10 November in Camden.:ok:

[Jack Ranga]

Wal-sta, they're not new ideas mate. It's going beyond OWT's & marketing & legal department bull****, operating machinery the way engineers meant them to be operated.

[jdeakin]

I'm sure the seminar is good, but $995 seems over-priced.

In my profession I usually just buy the text book or use online references rather than seminars. Despite the sales pitch, expensive seminars are rarely a good "investment". We've been doing the APS seminar for about 12 years now, with thousands of graduates. During all that time, we've had an unconditional money-back guarantee. No one has ever asked for it. Not one. In fact, we've had about 10 people stand up and say, "You guys are not charging enough for this!"
John Deakin (APS)

[jdeakin]

Interesting how these infernal combustion engines even lasted this long b4 these seminars came to light
I'd call your attention to the price of engines, the cost of fuel, and what it costs to maintain them. We've limped along for years, with the odd cylinder pooping out, engines running rough, and other assorted maladies, and shrugged our shoulders at all of it, saying "Just the cost of doing business." How may times have you looked at a piston with a hole in it, with the pilot saying, "I wasn't doing anything different, it just started running rough!"
With a modern EMS (and knowledge to use it), we can now EXPECT our engines to run to TBO and well beyond, without cylinder changes, without valve problems (except those caused by improper installation). We're seeing 2500 and 3000 hours like this, on 1700 hour TBO engines.

The same techniques made the magnificent R-3350 on the Connies and DC-7s run to TBOs of 3600 hours (up from 300 on the B-29). I see no reason the IO-550 won't do that and more. Time will tell.

It was & still is a widely known belief that lead was for lubrication within an engine hence the liquid lead additiveThat is an OWT (Old Wives Tale), and one of the most pernicious. Lead and the by-products formed by lead as found in AVGAS are abrasive, with absolutely no redeeming factors whatsoever, other than the amazing capability to increase the "latency period," that time it takes the air/fuel charge to get organized after the spark event and before TDC. There are other ways to do that, now.
John Deakin, APS

[Jabawocky]

Ranga is correct. :D

Wally, the course content is actually based around things that were known in the days of BW (before Wally).

There is nothing new other than the method of collecting the data on the Engine Dyno. The method of operation that is taught is basically how the airlines ran their big piston airliner engines except those guys did not have EGT to use as a reference they used BMEP and a flight engineer along with a flight engineers station that weighed about the same as your average bonanza!

In fact the course really should be called "Flight Enginners 101 for modern piston pilots" or something like that.

Leadsled might be one of the few that frequents these boards along with Centauraus that knows about those days. The pilot training even back then did not cover all the science because they had a flight engineer. When the flight engineer disappeared.....or never was in a light GA aircraft.....all that stuff was ignored, and hence the OWT's were born.

For you, just keep that "Burner Le Kerosene" working by the computer and you will be fine ;)

[Aussie Bob]

Well we could look at it this way:

1K for the course
5K for Gami injectors
3K for a good engine monitor

Struth, we are past 25% of an overhaul ....

But all that said, I am thinking very hard about going, it is more the time issue than the money.

[Jack Ranga]

Dood, I bought GAMI injectors for a bit over a grand.

3 grand for a monitor? Cheap at twice the price :ok:

But even at 5 grand for course, injectors & monitor, cheap. Once you understand what you are doing your 100 hourly's will drop & your unscheduled maintenance costs will plummet.

If you are an aircraft owner the course is essential, if you control the maintenance in your organisation, show your boss, it's essential.

P.S. You may not need GAMI's, and they will tell you if you don't. They are principled doods. The after sales service if you do get them is worth 5 times the price, ask anybody who's bought them :ok:

[Jabawocky]

Bob,

Anyone can rationalise anything, but these courses are not on every other week. So book in and make the time. It will be the best money you have ever spent in aviation.

Engine monitors for something decent start with about $2500 plus installation.

I do not care what anyone without one says, they are in the dark, but spend wisely and the ROI is worth it in spades. And those who prefer being ROP pilots, they actually need them more than the LOP pilots. That usually confuses most folk who believe the opposite.

[Wally Mk2]

Okay guys 'nothing new' I hear you guys say hey?............well someone is a clever marketing guru & making money out of A/C owners who already know this stuff but they obviously don't know they know........clever!:ok::E



Wmk2

[Aussie Bob]

Anyone can rationalise anything

Its alright Jabba, I am only stirring the pot. I have bitten the bullet and brought a monitor but it is still in its box, not much time for fitting that at the minute either, but in all likelihood, Mrs Bob and I will lob into Camden in the Scout and attend, or at least I will attend while she goes and spends more again.

[Jack Ranga]

Wal-sta, they (pilots) don't know this stuff mate. And they don't market. And I seriously doubt any money is made from the people who run this course.

[Jabawocky]

In addition to the "why should I pull apart my perfect engine" just to see why it works so perfectly????? :ugh:

[Andy_RR]

One day, all the information from an APS course and more will be stuffed into a little electronic box and left to do its own thing. The pilot will then have more time to look out the window at the scenery and oncoming aircraft - that is if he isn't already sitting next to the ATC guy in some dark room somewhere else entirely...

[rutan around]

Leadie

PS: We did operate O/IO-540 well over 3000 hours TBO, the best I remember was 3600 and still going. Was this in the days before uninformed butt-covering cowards captured control of aviation?
Was this back in the days when the authority realized that all engines run on condition from day one?
Was this back in the days when authority knew you had a far greater chance of a catastrophic engine failure in the first 100 hrs than at any other time in the engines life?
Was this back in the days when people with real engine experience were making the decisions? People who knew that high hour engines rarely fail catastrophically and normally give tens if not hundreds of hours of warning that they are nearing the end of their life.
Today how many hours can a charter organization run a IO-540 before they have to rip it out and junk it?
Is it time we started operating on proven data and not on uninformed whims thrust upon us by unqualified pen ushers more interested in self-promotion than safely?

[Andy_RR]

Andy_RR said:When:

- the engine has been set up properly, and
- you know how to run the engine properly, and
- you know what the monitor is telling you, and
- you've set up the monitor correctly,

you don't spend any more time looking at the monitor than you otherwise would have looking at the standard gauges. :ok:

I imagine you'd have spent quite a while looking at the monitor to get to this stage...

[Jack Ranga]

Yes, you may have. Same as doing your CIR for the first time I guess? When you know what all that information is telling you your scan becomes more efficient. I am frothing at the mouth (;)) to get at my monitor, set it up & start using the information it provides. I've got the good fortune of running an IO540 from 0 hours. I'll get back to you when I'm at 3000 hours or so with a progress report :ok:

[Walter Atkinson]

Gentlemen:

A couple of things:

1) The APS class is not put on by GAMI. The three APS principles are John Deakin, George Braly, and myself. Only George has any relationship with GAMI. We are not in any way related to GAMI in a business sense. We are, however, good friends. We recently added David Brown and Andrew Denyer as presenters in Australia.

2) The only detractors have been those who have not attended and generally don't know what they don't know.

3) While the vast bulk of the material presented is not new, very few participants know the material--even though they *think* they do. These are the pilots and LAMEs who generally make a very low score <50% on the pre-test. They spend a weekend experiencing a series of "Ah-ha" moments.

4) Engine monitors save you huge sums of money and in many cases, your engine, airplane, and your life. (if only the Wayalla Chieftan had had one, eight souls would likely be alive today) It does little to have a monitor unless one has the knowledge to interpret what it is telling you. There is simply no other course offered anywhere where this training and knowledge is available.

As John Deakin pointed out earlier in the thread, we have been offering a 100% money-back guarantee since day ONE. In over 13 years and many thousands of pilots, mechanics, OEM representatives, combustion engineers, FAA and CASA representatives, and engine builders having participated, not once has anyone asked for a refund or offered ANY rebutting data to what is presented. This course has dramatically changed the way GA aircraft are operated by a large number of pilots in the US and a growing number down under.

Yes, it is possible to garner this information on your own. It took us five years and a million dollar engine test facility to gather the information we present. Or, one can send a weekend and get it all at once. (to each, his own) Some of the material is 60 years old and forgotten. Some of it is new, and frankly, not widely known.

In this short thread alone, the APS grads are very positive about the value and the naysayers have not been--and might make as low as 40% on the pre-test.

"It' not what you know that hurts you; it's what you know that isn't so..."
Boswell

Walter Atkinson
Advanced Pilot Seminars
ATP, CFII, MEI, A&P

[Agrajag]

Folks,

I am a little incredulous that we are even having this discussion!

At no stage during my time in aviation have I ever thought, "That'll do; I know as much as I need to."

IMHO:

If you own a piston engine..

If you operate a piston engine..

If you have even an academic interest in what's going on inside a piston engine..

..then the course will vastly expand your knowledge of the most expensive and vital component in your aircraft.

Being guilty on all 3 counts, my attendance at the first Oz course was a foregone conclusion. And lo, it was good.

By the time the course was over, I'd been given a vast amount of info to make sense of what the engine monitor was telling me. The occasional ongoing query is easily dealt with by the excellent "after-sales" support from the gentlemen running it.

There is a perception that it's simply about running LOP. That is but one of the many topics discussed, though it's an important one, and we were given the knowledge to conduct such operation with confidence. The crucial yardstick for me was that even the most sceptical attendees had accepted the message by the time we were done.

It's all about knowing as much as you can. Surely, in our business, that has to be a good thing.

[T28D]

Agrajag, I am with you, why is this even a discussion, knowledge costs nothing to carry, uses a little memory, and potentially either saves your butt, or improves the state of your wallet over time.

Sure the course costs, you are paying for another persons knowledge and reputation as the transfer of knowledge occurs, it has a value.

From my reading the value is high, the cost is reasonable and the outcome is beneficial.

See all that and I didn't get to LOP !!!!!!!!!!!

[Jack Ranga]

You should :ok: it was a bloody good course :D

[Trent 972]

As Walter Atkinson has postedWe recently added David Brown and Andrew Denyer as presenters in Australia.
Wouldn't it now be right and proper that Jaba, as a passionate advocate of APS, post under his real name, as do Atkinson, Braly and Deakin, when discussing the virtues of attending this seminar?

[Jabawocky]

Right and Proper.....who cares here on pprune?. I dont care because many people know who I am anyway.

But when you try to register my name, and I did years ago, it was already in use. But just for you Trent, I have registered a new one, see if you can guess it :}.

If I keep this up I will end up like Forkie, :E and never remember them all.


You will have to wait a while for posts to appear though.........Edit 1-10-13 Seems you have to wait a LONG while :sad:

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

But when you try to register my name, and I did years ago, it was already in use. But just for you Trent, I have registered a new one, see if you can guess it http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/badteeth.gif.

"Andrew Denyer" !!!!! :E:E:E

Dr :8

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

"David Browneye" !!! ??? :ok:

[Aussie Bob]

Looks like I have committed to this course, look forward to meeting a few fellow Prunes there ...

[LeadSled]

Walter,
What some posters on this thread illustrate is just how dumb a percentage of aviators in Australia really are ---- their prejudices are made up, don't confuse them with the facts.

[Walter Atkinson]

That's not limited to Australia. The whining and complaining in the US 13 years ago about the APS class was vocal and constant... that is, until we made the transition from being renegades to being mainstream. How did we make the transition, you might ask? With DATA.

What's really funny is how we coined a few terms during the creation of the seminar and we now hear others quoting them without knowing their origin. My favorite was when one guy on an internet forum was trying to explain the Red Box to me and he had it screwed up. The silence was golden when I pointed out that *I* invented the Red Box (with John and George's input) and that since I invented it, I got to define it. The thread died suddenly.

The engine management things we teach along with the interpretation of engine monitors has become "common knowledge" among large segments of the pilot population in the States. Many people are teaching others without knowing where the material originated. THAT is acceptance and success. Much of what Mike Busch teaches, he learned during the three times he took the APS class. Mike does a good job with the majority of it and does give us attribution when he writes.

My favorite statistic is the Pre-test scores. The average pilot who considers himself knowledgeable makes about 60%; the average LAME will score in the 40% range; and the average IA lower than that. That's when we get the doubter's attention! Few actually score a passing grade, but most all make 95-100% on the Post-test 2 1/2 days later.

It's satisfying.

[outnabout]

Attended this course earlier this year (and got the T shirt to prove it).

Thoroughly recommend it, learned a heap, and am now putting it into practice. Can already point to $$ in my pocket rather than the LAME's.

Thank you, Walter, for the assumption that we are gentlemen on here when, on occasion, evidence has shown otherwise (some of us can be right stubborn bastards, at times).

[Jabawocky]

Thank you, Walter, for the assumption that we are gentlemen on here when, on occasion, evidence has shown otherwise (some of us can be right stubborn bastards, at times).
:}

And I reckon I can guess who this is, so just for Walters benefit, and some of you ladies can drink the men folk under the table.

Leisa is still scared of going near you and a bottle of red wine! :E

I would reply with my personal username but it seems that my posts are not being released :sad:

And people wonder why I post as Jaba!

[Jabawocky]

The APS Course Just Saved Me a Ton of Money

And, more importantly, frustration!

Here's the story... names redacted to protect the guilty. Any likeness to persons living or otherwise is purely intentional.

My newly-overhauled Continental IO-550 has been purring along very nicely for 100ish hours now. It is equipped with GAMI injectors, and almost exactly a year ago I performed a GAMI lean test and determined my fuel spread to be in the 0.2 gph range. That's an excellent spread, and my engine has always run very smoothly leak-of-peak (LOP), even as far down as 50-100F LOP.

That said, I normally run around in the 7-10k altitude range, and typically I'm at 15-20F LOP, and again, always smooth.

So last weekend, while flying with fellow BT Admin, Jeff Snyder, on a cross country, we leveled off at 7,000 feet, and set everything up for cruise at about 20F LOP. After a few minutes, it became obvious that the engine wasn't running particularly smoothly, although not what I would categorize as "rough" either. It felt as though it were running about 120-150F LOP, and we could feel it "miss" every now and again, but we confirmed multiple times to be only 20F LOP.

As we started looking around the airplane for gremlins which might cause such a phenomenon, we found the following.

Hrm, that's odd. Attention, Cylinder #5! Care to explain to the class why you're running 47 degrees cooler, as measured by cylinder head temperature (CHT), than the next coolest cylinder?

Now, Jeff and I are both Advanced Pilot Seminars (APS) course grads, and right away we were conjecturing, based on what we learned in the course, as to what would cause both the CHT and EGT to be significantly lower than normal. We came up with a working theory, but we needed more evidence to support it.

Let's try running rich-of-peak (ROP) for a moment then.

The rest of the article and lots of colourful pictures are found here BeechTalk - BT - The APS Course Just Saved Me a Ton of Money (http://www.beechtalk.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=83386)

[Jabawocky]

There are a few positions available for the class in Camden (Sydney) on the 8-10th of November. Bookings online at the APS website are essential. PM me if you need assistance.

The next course will be a year away and might not be anywhere near you!