IRA - Can we forgive and forget?

[jayteeto]

I recently moved to Warrington, the scene of a horrific IRA bombing nearly 30 yrs ago. Just around the corner from our house is the Peace Centre, dedicated to the 2 young children killed by the bombs. Today, the (ex) IRA Chief, Martin McGuinness has been invited to make a speech there. I am not happy that he is here, in fact every shocking moment, including the funerals of my friends, has flashed back this morning.
I know that I should forgive, but I feel that McGuinness is pure evil, right to the core. I want to protest today, but does that make me as bad as the Belfast bigots?

[ShyTorque]

I know that I should forgive, but I feel that McGuinness is pure evil, right to the core. I want to protest today, but does that make me as bad as the Belfast bigots?

You may be correct, but unless you can think of a viable alternative (which still maintains the peace of course), the only way forward is to accept it. As military/ex military personnel, it can be very hard to come to terms with things like this, but really, we have to do it.

[Courtney Mil]

“To err is human, to forgive is divine.”

It's relatively easy to forgive someone that errs, but there is a big difference between an error and multiple, deliberate, diabolical atrocities. Your feelings are probably perfectly understandable. I'm sure the debate here could get quite heated and I'm sure we'll see some pretty interesting views.

You are certainly not alone in your outlook and it's easy to see why.

[Ivor Fynn]

No JT, it doesn't. I heard this on the news this morning and was completely disgusted. I hope Warrington give him a very frosty reception. A lecture on peace from McGuinness is a joke.

Ivor

[TheWizard]

Not making light of any of the above but at least someone across the way is trying to redress the balance! Taken in Strabane
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BUbg-orIMAA_dA6.jpg:large

[jayteeto]

Difficult call, my beef is with the man, not the organisation. Even at the time, I sort of accepted why they were doing it. A couple of the main players had so little respect for life, they were in the Robert Mugabe/Saddam mould.

[Pontius Navigator]

And if he had been in the German Army 70 years ago?

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

Not quite that simple, though, as yer man McGuinness wasn't just Other Ranks or Junior Officer. He's in the Hitler, Goering, Himmler category.

[clicker]

Jayteeto

For someone like me who only saw the conflict in the papers and on TV it's a very hard question to answer so for anyone directly involved then it must be a nightmare to figure out.

I don't think there's ever going to be a real answer, for every yes there will be a no.

I agree with you in that the man should not be allowed to speak at such an event where his "side" was responsible for deaths of innocent people. Even more so when these included children.

But in order to move on then there has to be some form of forgiveness otherwise we end up going around in circles. I certainly would not want to return to the bloody mess of years ago.

Regarding PN's question I would have hoped he ended up on trial in Nuremburg and sentenced in accordance with any verdict. I have always regretted that in some cases HMG have not pursued anyone for criminal acts in order to secure a brownie point or two.

[SOSL]

If a person chooses to kill children, with a bomb (however long ago it was), he is in the same category as Bashar Al-Assad (the useless and short sighted ophthalmologist!), the Al-Qaida morons and the idiots who are slaughtering innocent families in the so called "Democratic Republic of Congo".

He is a murderer!

We would be better off listening to peace speeches from someone who hasn't killed innocent children!

Rgds SOS

[Chugalug2]

PN:-
And if he had been in the German Army 70 years ago?
Or the Imperial Japanese Army? At least the German Nation has disowned the crimes committed under the Nazi regime. Japan never has, and the crimes committed in the 30s and 40s were done with relish right down to Pte. Forgiveness starts with remorse.

[air pig]

My other half has been in the presence of Adams, she said he just radiated pure evil, I suspect McGuiness is the same. Maybe one day they will meet their day of judgement, any files that could be released 'accidentley' showing the were 'agent steakeknife's' handlers for the RUC Special Branch MI5/6 and the 'det'.

[glojo]

Certainly a thought provoking question and some excellent answers. My sister has just returned from a cruise aboard the Queen Mary which visited the port of Hamburg. Every-time this ship visits that port the local people turn out in their thousands to greet the ship. What an amazing gesture and how nice to see how we can so readily forgive and forget. BUT.....

Your query bought a lump to my throat and as has been said by a number of contributors, this person is evil, he is most certainly not a gentleman and how can any reasonably minded person look that evil thing in the eye and shake its hand!! To condone the deliberate and yes I mean deliberate bombing of an area where innocent women and children will be killed is an act which surely cannot be forgiven? To condone and probably authorise this deed is deserving of the severest punishment this nation can award but instead we honour this despicable person.

I have tried my hardest not to be too inflammatory and I just hope that one day justice will be done and when those ashes to ashes are cast over the graves, those ashes are just the beginning of a very hot reception.

are you better off boycotting this embarrassing fiasco?

[cokecan]

conversely, i know people who deal with McGuinness on a fairly regular basis, and i also know PIRA people from the 1980's - their view of McGuinness is certainly one of ruthlessness, but not of casual cruelty or indifference to violence.

its interesting that its the father of one of the children murdered in Warrington who invited McGuinness - having met him on several occasions previously - one would have thought that he had a greater right to forgive or forget than many others, though of course he has said explicitly that he isn't within a thousand miles of forgiving PIRA for the death of his son...

[Airborne Aircrew]

Just trust me on this...

The military had all the intelligence/evidence it needed to clearly demonstrate that both Adams and McGuinness were active members of the Provisional IRA Council in the early 1980's when they were professing to be "political". They were directing PIRA policy so the blood is on their hands just the same as it is on those who committed the actual acts. The problem was that arresting them would have been politically "awkward" because we couldn't be seen to be arresting political "leaders".

[cokecan]

Glojo,

look at what you've written, and ask yourself if the RAF has not dropped a bomb in the last 20 years into an area it knows there are likely to be innocents, but where the military need to engage a particular target over-rode the potential collateral damage.

if you can't think of a single one, then you're not trying hard enough.

[SOSL]

conversely, i know people who deal with McGuinness on a fairly regular basis, and i also know PIRA people from the 1980's - their view of McGuinness is certainly one of ruthlessness, but not of casual cruelty or indifference to violence

So are you saying he didn't order the killing of those innocent children?

Rgds SOS

[glojo]

Glojo,

look at what you've written, and ask yourself if the RAF has not dropped a bomb in the last 20 years into an area it knows there are likely to be innocents, but where the military need to engage a particular target over-rode the potential collateral damage.

if you can't think of a single one, then you're not trying hard enough.
I am sorry but I cannot see your point.

If you are asking me to think of an occassion where a military pilot of any service was asked to bomb an area which they knew to be only occupied by innocent women and children going about their daily chores then I would like to think you know the answer.

Respect to anyone that can forgive those that commit the ultimate crime against their family and I am not going to reply to that point as it is so emotive and of course personal.

[Yozzer]

To achieve his objectives nowadays, he requires an audience, whether interested onlookers or protesters is not relevent.

Mindfull of this, the best thing that everybody could dois stay away.

Few people have been directly affected by the IRA in the big scheme of things and therefore nonchallence by the majority is the inevitable order of the day. One day people die and when that day comes, the living have the choice of which lavatory they choose to use. :E

[cokecan]

more complicted than that.

he, or at least AC PIRA, ordered bombs to be detonated in English towns to 'spread the pain' outside London. the concept of operations was to have warning phone calls to reduce collateral damage, but not to give the police too much time so that there was no real fear. the ideal result being lots of economic damage, quite a bit of fear/panic/close shaves and the police being run off their feet - but if no one was killed, or very few people were killed (in these attacks on economic targets rather than the intentionally lethal attacks on military/political targets), then PIRA wouldn't lose any sleep.

the trick was to give warnings that would be resonably effective, but not so generous so that there was no panic in the effort to clear the area. sometimes they got that right, sometimes they did not. it is however fundamental to understanding PIRA bombing campaigns to grsp that PIRA was targetting a concept - the carefree saturday afternoon at the shops - far more than it targetted individuals.

anyone who disputes that mass casualties were not PIRA's intention in every attack they made ought to ask themselves why PIRA gave warnings in the first place.

[ralphmalph]

I bet if you asked a Pro government soldier, a Talib and a Rebel fighter the rights and wrongs of their ROE......they will probably all think they are right naturally.

If you have every been asked to take a life, or try to kill someone...you will realise its a turbo **** conundrum. No right or wrong ultimately.....that is unless you take a black or white robot approach.

I'm sure there will be people lining to kill/denigrate me in the future because I served in Afghanistan.....

My mate John who is related to Ian Paisleys mothers milkman reckons he is a nasty piece of work....

The point has been raised above....if he has been invited.....then the point has been made. Forgiven.

[ralphmalph]

SOSL,

If you want to talk about killing innocents.....we as UK plc are not innocent.

[Airborne Aircrew]

Cokecan:

anyone who disputes that mass casualties were not PIRA's intention in every attack they made ought to ask themselves why PIRA gave warnings in the first place.

PIRA's penchant for "warnings" is not the magnanimous deed you seem to think. The purpose of the warnings was to allow the PIRA to further spread terror and stretch resources without any effort on their part. For every real warning there were several fake warnings where they are safe in the knowledge that once the warning has been given it cannot be ignored and once the authorities pay attention to the warning they must deploy all assets.

You also forget the many occasions where no warning was given.

[Roadster280]

A similar question was asked on ARRSE a while back. I posted this:

Maybe it's a generational thing. My Grandad couldn't stand Japs or Germans. To the day he died, he was convinced the reason we and the Americans had huge standing armies in Germany was to stop them from doing it again. Sod all to do with the commie hordes.

Whereas I, living in the freedom that his generation had afforded me, didn't mind the Germans one bit. They made great cars (a 1970s Audi vs a 1970s Austin Maxi was a joke!), and when I got posted there, I found I actually liked them, great work ethic, knew how to have fun, not much unruly youth crime, high standard of living.

So I can't stand anything to do with the Emerald toilet. The bastards were trying to kill me. Some of the outrages were unforgivable, and remain so to this day for me. Contrast with say Cork; I can't equate the savages of the North with Cork. Or Temple Bar (or whatever it's called) in Dublin. A good night out. Belfast? Londonderry? Not for me, thanks. So I'm like my Grandad. I'm sure my kids won't see it that way. But I lived through those times.

[SOSL]

No it's not really complicated. That bomb killed those children! Simple! If he ordered it, he's a murderer.

How evil and murderous other people are doesn't reduce his culpability for his actions (your point Ralph).

I agree that over the years, many PIRA, so called warnings, were actually designed to maximise civilian casualties. cf Omagh (I know that wasn't PIRA but some other group of nutters).

There is no excuse for murder - whoever does it (including our own government) and for whatever reason.

Rgds SOS

[jayteeto]

Oh if it were so simple. He was the boss, he ordered beatings, kneecapping, under car bombs and so much more. Even against his own people, lawyers who criticised him, journalists who wrote against him. Don't ever compare him with our military

[SOSL]

I couldn't agree more.

Rgds SOS

[Lightning Mate]

JUST A THUG !

[SASless]

Such a simple topic......Not!

Forgive.....possibly. Forget.....not possible.

The Hate on both sides is too deep....to strong....and too long lived to disappear in a single generation.

Civil Wars are like that aren't they?

What does one accomplish by continuing to carry that hatred around inside One's Heart year after year? All it does is eat at your own heart and happiness.

As long as Peace continues.....try to forgive.

[Navaleye]

Perhaps its just time to move on. The past cannot be undone. We have peace in NI. I remember the Warrington event and the dignity of the father of those kids and nothing excuses what happened. But nothing can change it.

[Cows getting bigger]

Navaleye, we most certainly do not have peace in Northern Ireland, we have relative peace.

For sure, there are 'politicians' on all sides of Stormont who have rather distasteful pasts and I wouldn't share a pint with any of them. Equally, to see multiple murderers released from The Maze as part of Good Friday was a very, very bitter pill to swallow. However, McGuinness, Adams etc are the same people who used their leadership and positions of authority to help create the relative peace. One could question the motives behind signing-up to the peace process but the reality is that the province is in a far better place than it was 15 years ago.

[skua]

Re Yozzer's comment, We (British taxpayers) all suffered, albeit indirectly. We will never know the true extent to which the rest of the UK has funded Ulster over the years, a large proportion of the budget being spent on security directly related to the activities of McG and his henchmen.

Apart from having blood on his hands, let us not forget the criminal side of the PIRA. It is said by those who know that A and McG harvested a not inconsiderable personal fortune. Indeed only there connections will ensure they sleep when the likes of the US are levering open the details of Swiss bank accounts.

[jayteeto]

I passed the centre this afternoon. All was quiet and I had calmed down. NI is not at peace, but it is a better place than in the 80s I suppose. Shy gets today's prize, sometimes you do have to accept things................ even if you can't forgive.

[dhorgan]

Never met a pilot yet who checked and confirmed that all innocent folk had cleared the target area before bomb/ammo release. Doesn't justify Warrington, London, New York, Omagh, Dresden, Hiroshima etc. I know but we're all guilty. Doesn't it say somewhere 'forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us'?
Can't forget what they/we did but will do my best to forgive. Isn't easy.

[RUCAWO]

What peace . 700 police officers injured in the last year, 700 POLICE OFFICERS INJURED IN PUBLIC DISORDER | Belfast Daily (http://www.belfastdaily.co.uk/2013/09/05/700-police-officers-injured-in-public-disorder/)

[Bastardeux]

I think I'm going out on a limb here, but as a proud British citizen, I think it's time we put our hatred and our differences to rest. I personally think we take an unjustified moral high ground; Northern Ireland's Catholic population was treated in a manner akin to black people in the southern US for much of the mid-20th century.

I am in no way condoning the abhorrent way that the IRA acted throughout the entirety of the troubles, but let's not forget the acts that were committed in Ireland in the name of the British people. Frankly, our treatment of the Irish from the beginning of our occupation right up to their independence was nothing less than a disgrace. I'm sure there are many people in Dublin that can still vividly remember the army firing into innocent men, women and children in croke park. I know that there are certainly people in Derry who still reel from the fact that their unarmed friends and family were shot (some of them in the back).

Again, I'm not condoning how the IRA ever operated, but the resentment of many republicans towards the British is justifiable given our own history towards them, yet despite all this, the Queen was welcomed into Dublin on her tour of Ireland and I'm sure it was a bitter pill for some staunch republicans to swallow, but they accepted it and all that she represents to them.

I think it would be best for all parties involved to accept that terrible things have have been committed by both sides, but it is what it is and the past, regrettably, cannot be changed. We can, however, secure a better and more stable future if we allow history to remain in the past rather than the present.

Just my two cents

[BBK]

Bastardeaux

Excellent post.

BBK

[SOSL]

Well said, Bastardeux,

Rgds SOS

[Two's in]

And the winning entry in the overall comprehension section goes to Bastardeux...

I think it would be best for all parties involved to accept that terrible things have have been committed by both sides, but it is what it is and the past, regrettably, cannot be changed. We can, however, secure a better and more stable future if we allow history to remain in the past rather than the present.

Just my two cents

[charliegolf]

The OP displays his by challenging himself over his feelings. McGuinness may or may not have done the same. If he has, he perhaps deserves forgiveness; otherwise he does not.

CG

[charliegolf]

What peace . 700 police officers injured in the last year, 700 POLICE OFFICERS INJURED IN PUBLIC DISORDER | Belfast Daily

Imeasurably better. That's how my Catholic 'six counties' friends view the situation at the moment. They are absolutely certain.

CG

[Laarbruch72]

If there's absolutely no chance of forgiveness then none of us ever move forward and the world remains doomed to be a nasty and bitter place forever, constantly festering over old wounds. At some point, at least one party has to move on and accept that what has gone before cannot be changed by further aggression, protest or quarrel.

Time is certainly a big factor in the healing after every incident / atrocity and the OP may feel that insufficient time has passed since Warrington bomb, but at some juncture there has to be progress from either, or all aggrieved parties. I can understand the feelings from the OP but he'd be the bigger man to stay away, maybe not yet forgiving, but at least accepting of some form of progress. Continued hate doesn't bring people back.

[OutlawPete]

A very well written post Bastadeux.

I find it incredibly unpalatable the McG is be allowed this public forum, like many maybe because I was young in the mob when the horrors of the 80s unfolded.

How we all behave now, though, lays the foundations for future generations and we all want the best for our kids.

[Churchills Ghost]

jayteeto - Well done on your frankness in sharing such a sensitive topic.

I believe that a continued awareness of past failings combined with an ongoing commitment to build a future in which understanding and cooperation are dominant goals, will help steer the challenge of unity in the right direction.

Being realistic, and presuming that there is no slippage into the former ways, I see this flourishing in the generation which follows ours, where the pain of the atrocities committed will hopefully have been blunted.

However, we should aim to heal those pains even now and which requires those involved being genuinely regretful for their acts of savagery while determined to discover non-aggressive means through which to resolve ongoing differences.

* *

On a separate note, I am relieved to see that you have been spared the nugatory comments of Fg Off Bloggs who some weeks ago felt that any thread not related to either 'military aircrew' or 'aviation' be relegated to Jet Blast! :mad:

Another of CG's threads that has nothing to do with 'Military Aircrew or Aviation'!


Let us continue to pray that NI will know lasting peace and stability.

[The Old Fat One]

A good thread, many views, some predictable, some a little more...educated??

I find myself thinking of the words of an inspirational man. I don't know the exact quote, but it goes something like this....

Question...do you still feel anger towards your jailors?

None whatsoever

Why is that?

because to feel anger, is to surrender control to them

The interviewee was Nelson Mandela

Peace and conciliation means exactly that.

[Basil]

Well, as a Clydeside Prod who was born and raised amidst imported Irish politics I would not welcome Adams or McGuinness. HMTQ was welcomed to The Republic of Ireland but those two are hardly heads of state. I think I can safely say that I'm not mad about Paisley either.*
Does McG think he's going to get some sort of absolution out of it?

Good post by Bastardeux.

*Once, about 1958, took a Catholic friend to an Orange Walk (he insisted - I said "They say terrible things about The Pope!" He still insisted.) Heard this guy going on about the imminent invasion of our lands by Papist hordes (placed hands over friend's ears). Years later heard the same voice - must have been a young IP.

[Lima Juliet]

I think we should follow Her Majesty's example. She lost her dearest Cousin but still managed to lift herself above it all and move forward with the other side.

BBC News - Queen and Martin McGuinness shake hands (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-18607911)

Surely the ultimate example of what we should do?

LJ

[Courtney Mil]

Good point and well made, LJ. There is one other thing. For me, forgiveness only comes when the wrong-doer shows remorse for what they did. It doesn't come for me when they try to ignore what they have done and carry on regardless.

[Speedywheels]

Do you know who invited McGuiness to talk at the Peace Centre?

The answer might surprise you and demonstrates that some people have recognised we need to move forwards and talking is a far better alternative to fighting. Im sure Colin Parry has no forgiveness for McGuiness or any of his fellow IRA members but I salute his continued pursuit of finding peace and reconciliation :D

[Canadian Break]

Jayteeto. Forgive if you can, in the name of moving us all forward, but never, ever forget. CB

[Burritto]

The original thread was can we forgive or forget? I am afraid I can do neither. I grew up in Northern Ireland until I joined the RAF in '89 and there were atrocities on both sides. Their activities were called terrorism for a reason - they were designed to terrorise the civilian population into giving in to a bigoted narrow-minded view of what the perp felt was correct or justified.
I am however willing to accept what went on. I am willing to accept that these brutes will not be prosecuted. I am willing to accept that these w**kers will appear on the TV smiling and hand-shaking. I would happily see the terrorists from both sides hung from the nearest lamppost, but that would not help.
This acceptance is the price that peace-craving people must pay to move forward. Forgive and forget? No. Accept and try to move forward? Yes.

[jayteeto]

There was an organised protest. Peaceful of course. They quoted "asking him to lecture on peace is like asking Myra hindley to lecture on child protection".

[Deepest Norfolk]

I will never forgive or forget that for most of my service I was, along with my wife and two children, considered a "legitimate target" by those who sought to force their will upon the majority by the bomb and by the bullet. I can never forgive those cowardly b'stards who skulked around putting bombs under cars and in waste bins, blowing up people who couldn't alter things even if they wanted to. In my (probably tarnished) opinion the Gibraltar victory should have happened time after time after time.

However, and that's a big however, we must move on and if the only way to ensure that we don't return to those days is to pretend that McGuinness and Adams et al are honorable politicians (now there's an oxymoron if ever there was one), then so be it, after all we did so with the Israeli terrorists.

DN

[Shack37]

Posted by cokecan.

the trick was to give warnings that would be resonably effective, but not so generous so that there was no panic in the effort to clear the area. sometimes they got that right, sometimes they did not. it is however fundamental to understanding PIRA bombing campaigns to grsp that PIRA was targetting a concept
- the carefree saturday afternoon at the shops - far more than it targetted
individuals.
anyone who disputes that mass casualties were not PIRA's
intention in every attack they made ought to ask themselves why PIRA gave warnings in the first place.


This has to be the greatest load of ira propaganda ever posted. Martin and Gerry would be proud of you. As someone born and raised in Belfast and who served in N.I. between 1968 and 1971 I think I can comment on your post.
1. How many of those "warnings" were deliberately inaccurate as to the bomb location causing innocent "carefree shoppers" to be evacuated to where the bomb actually was sited?
2. Ask your friend Gerry about his time as commander of the "unknowns" who kidnapped, tortured and murdered alleged traitors including the disgusting treatment of the mother of a large family whose body has still not been recovered because the heroes who did it won't say where they dumped her.

You have the gall to imply that the ira tried to avoid casualties in their attacks. Ask the families of those killed and maimed in pubs, clubs and restaurants.

Forgive? Never. Forget? Never.

[racedo]

Should a family who have had most of the members of their family killed while attending a wedding in Afghanistan forgive ?
Should a family who were killed by weapons sold by UK to a despot in Africa or wherever forgive ?
Should Bloody Sunday victims in Northern Ireland forgive ?
What about if your family died in a bombing because M15 / Police knew something was going to occur but decided not to intervene because it gave them a better position in an organisation ?
Is a pilot who launches a missile 60 miles away from a target a hero or a terrorist if the missile destroys a terrorist camp but what about if it destroys a school where a wedding was taking place ?

People make up their own mind but the moralising of what is correct or incorrect will depend on where you sit.....................there isn't a right or wrong answer but you don't make peace with your friends you make it with your enemies.

[DADDY-OH!]

No. We can neither forgive nor forget. Because to quote Gerry Adam's after the Enniskillen bomb he said about the IRA... "They haven't gone away, you know..."

Neither forgive nor forget not trust nor appease. Just kill the bastards.

[ralphmalph]

Racedo,

You and I are on the same page. Lots of outrage here.

Not much navel gazing.

Ralph

[The Oberon]

Isn't it always the same ? After the conflict you always have to co-exist with the main offenders. Palestine and the subsequent Jewish leadership, Kenya and the Mau Mau in the form of Jomo Kenyatta, and as for Mandella, probably one of the most brutal terrorists that ever walked on the planet. I am aware that the S.A. regime was dreadful and he had a lot to rebel against.

I think that people struggle more with Adams and McG. because it was closer to home but it has always happened.

Not saying that it is right though.

[Shack37]

Racedo,
You and I are on the same page. Lots of outrage here.
Not much navel gazing.
Ralph


Ralph, you must have a very interesting navel. For me navel gazing means a way of accepting atrocities and excusing the perpetrators. For me, all of them were cowardly murdering thugs and that goes for all of them on both sides. It matters not what patriotic name they gave themselves, they were all murderers without conscience.

[SASless]

there isn't a right or wrong answer but you don't make peace with your friends you make it with your enemies.


You have to make Peace with yourself....first....then perhaps you can move on to others.

One of the Oriental religions.....Shintoists I believe....have a saying...."To love others, one must first love oneself!".

I think there is some wisdom there.

[Hangar6]

We will never forget , it's impossible to erase some of the images we
all have of wars battles bomb attacks , forgetting is probably not within
Our remit. Forgiving on the other hand is something in our own control,
The recent troubles were very dirty, all sides , more than two sides for sure
out of the dirty mess came some very decent people who somehow got
Most of the guns silenced , thank god for that.
Forgiving will take two or three generations , too early to forgive the
level all sides stooped to in this conflict civilian , military , paramilitary, judiciary.
media , religious orders even politicians, a terrible insight on us humans they way
we can do this to each other, and for what purpose?

[racedo]

Ralph, you must have a very interesting navel. For me navel gazing means a way of accepting atrocities and excusing the perpetrators. For me, all of them were cowardly murdering thugs and that goes for all of them on both sides. It matters not what patriotic name they gave themselves, they were all murderers without conscience.

So you accept Bloody Sunday and the coverup that occured in th 1970's and excuse the perpetrators ? or because it was done by men in uniform it can be brushed aside ?

You see in the eyes of the minority population the Army were on a side and used the law to coverup what ever they did.Where as if the state had acted correctly we wouldn't have had another 30 years of war.

[Hangar6]

Yes , agreed but on all sides some even were honoured in buck house, young innocent 18 year olds from England sent to defend the indefensible and forced to
Lie to protect the sandhurst junta who were cowards and panicked when faced with an unarmed civil rights march ! But all sides were equally guilty , only time will heel.
I remember my grandfather telling me of high nelly bike rides with a 303 on his back hiding in bushes waiting for a foreign army to show its face in a rolls
Royce armoured car so he could fire off a few rounds and plug a few of them before they burnt his farmhouse down, every war is the same , evil and inexcusable, we are free now , but we cannot forget, just forgive.

[Shack37]

So you accept Bloody Sunday and the coverup that occured in th 1970's and excuse the perpetrators ? or because it was done by men in uniform it can be brushed aside ?
You see in the eyes of the minority population the Army were on a side and used the law to coverup what ever they did.Where as if the state had acted correctly we wouldn't have had another 30 years of war.


OK, let me change the phrase in my last post from "both sides" to "all sides". No I do not accept Bloody Sunday and I abhor the cover up.
I was there when the Army arrived and their role was to assist the overstretched police in protecting the minority population against protestant militant attacks on the marches in favour of more equality.

It was not long before the "freedom fighters" decided to start attacking the army, first with bricks and petrol bombs and later with firearms. I saw them come back from patrols to their base at BK with ever more serious injuries.

Try not to be confused about who started what and against whom.

[Hangar6]

Yes this is important all sides were evil equally, but maybe one side , perhaps the official representatives of the people should have been well trained and
Disciplined enough with strong leaders to hold the moral high ground and act accordingly but alas they were poorly led, scared cowards from a disunited British army who acted like terrorists , they sunk to the level of their
aversory as always happens in war, Bloody Sunday brought the British army
Down to the level of the IRA , evil cowards intent on mayhem
And destruction and the army caused many years of innocent bloodshed
By their actions, not for the first time did a colonial power
Prolong a pointless conflict ?

[Shack37]

I remember my grandfather telling me of high nelly bike rides with a 303 on his back hiding in bushes waiting for a foreign army to show its face in a rolls Royce armoured car so he could fire off a few rounds and plug a few of them before they burnt his farmhouse down, every war is the same , evil and inexcusable, we are free now , but we cannot forget, just forgive.


Hanger6
Your age is 53 so your grandfather, if alive, would be somewhere in the region of 115 years old. In 1916 he would have been about 18 and in that case he would have been fighting an entirely different war to justifiably become an independent Ireland.
Forgive me saying I find your post a little reminiscent of the old songs about those days, I know the words to most of them.

[Hangar6]

He is dead now of course !! Do the math

[Hangar6]

You can read about him, pm me and I will fax te book pages or enlighten yourself and buy the book, a good read , he was in prison with Eamon Dev, went on hunger strike , escaped by bribing the Scottish army guards and lived to a ripe old age,
Oddly enuf my father was RAMC LT COl and served in NI
So I have a rounded perspective on the evils that all sides were party to.

[Shack37]

He is dead now of course !! Do the math


Try reading my post. If you really concentrate hard you'll realise I already did the maths!

[Airborne Aircrew]

Shack37:

I spent a couple or three years serving with a man who was there. Sober as a judge and so rat-faced he was incapable of lying his story never changed. The crowd escalated and escalated until they came under fire. He claims he never fired but only because he couldn't identify a target in the crowd. He was always adamant that the first shots came from his front. He was a Scouse, and I trust him... :eek:

[Shack37]

You can read about him, pm me and I will fax te book pages or enlighten
yourself and buy the book, a good read , he was in prison with Eamon Dev, went on hunger strike , escaped by bribing the Scottish army guards and lived to a ripe old age, Oddly enuf my father was RAMC LT COl and served in NI So I have a rounded perspective on the evils that all sides were party to.


Yeah and you're a brain surgeon at Dublin General. Thanks for the book offer but no thanks. I've written a book myself but I don't expect anyone to believe the half of it.

[Hangar6]

Shack , all I am saying is it was a black evil time, anyone who was involved at that time on the ground who claims the morale high ground is on a sticky wicket as they say! Lets not forget but aye forgive,,,,,in time , give it 50 years,

[Hangar6]

No such place but I take your point you are happy to believe and accept your view of events that's fine , no harm in that , I have enjoyed your comments, pm me if you want the book.

[Airborne Aircrew]

Shack:

Well... That was a well educated and balanced response...

Silly boy... :rolleyes:

[Shack37]

Dublin general
No such place but I take your point you are happy to believe and accept your view of events that's fine , no harm in that , I have enjoyed your comments, pm me if you want the book.

Hangar6
Thanks for taking my comments in the spirit intended. PM me the book title or you're grandad's name and I'll do some googalong.

[Shack37]

Shack:
Well... That was a well educated and balanced
response...

Silly boy... :rolleyes:


AA
I think we probably agree on more subjects than not.

[Airborne Aircrew]

AA
I think we probably agree on more subjects than not.

Perhaps... But the way we manage to disagree makes me lean towards you being a troll or an idiot... Which is it?

[Hangar6]

Banner being the name for a county in ROI , Co Clare,
mercer press , William McNamara being my grandfather on the bike against
The rolls Royce in a wee place called Cratloe , he won that one but lost the next
One c'est le Guerre !

[Shack37]

Perhaps... But the way we manage to disagree makes me lean towards you being a troll or an idiot... Which is it?


You don't give me a lot to choose from.
My personal opinion is hardly likely to put me in either category. To make you're own decision you would need to know me personally or talk to people who do.
As this is unlikely to happen since visits to the US is no longer on my agenda I can only say that I have always tried to treat others as I hope they would treat me. Maybe a little naïve but has worked for me to date.

I am not against personal self defence and have no problem in supporting anyone who has need to use it, up to and including the use of firearms.

What I find objectionable is that someone/anyone can derive pleasure from killing another animate being, however necessary it may be. For me this applies as much to vermin as it does to the assholes who are happy to kill a beautiful stag just to hang it's head on a wall.

It is necessary to keep vermin, rats etc under control but to get pleasure from the act of killing is, for me, a big no no.

Idiot or Troll? Make your own assessment.

[Airborne Aircrew]

Shack:

For me this applies as much to vermin as it does to the assholes who are happy to kill a beautiful stag just to hang it's head on a wall.We agree here... I wouldn't kill an animal to put it's head on a wall.. There are those that do "trophies"... That's fine if the meat is properly used. To kill an animal for sport without a proper use of the animal after it's death, to me, is an utter waste..

I will hunt soon... I will use the entire animal...

The head has two possible outcomes... If I shoot the head it's not going to be acceptable hanging on the wall.... If I take the center body shot the wife won't want the bloody head hanging in the house anyway... I lose both ways...

When I decide to hunt, bearing in mind I have numerous grocery stores within a mile or so of my house so food isn't hard to come by, I'll hunt to make my own food... Because it's fun to do so...

Ever made you own sausage, bacon, ham?

[SASless]

He was always adamant that the first shots came from his front. He was a Scouse, and I trust him...

Which way was he facing?:uhoh:

I can imagine it was a very tense and confusing situation that sad day.

That discipline broke down is without a doubt.

I don't hold with flock shooting ducks much less unarmed people.

[Shack37]

An Apology to Airborne Aircrew

He was a Scouse, and I trust him... http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/eek.gif

I totally misinterpreted the quoted part of your post as a little irony to lighten an otherwise serious post and attempted mistakenly to respond in a similar vein. As a result I posted a comment that was uncalled for, offensive and tasteless.
I hope you can accept my apology, it is humbly made. Naturally it also goes to Scouses everywhere.
I will now remove the post.

S37

[dubbleyew eight]

could we have the braille translation.

what is a scouse???????

[Tiger_mate]

what is a scouse???????

Half a Pound of Stewing Steak
Half a Pound of Lambs Breast
A Large Onion
1lb of Carrots
5lb of Potatoes
2 Oxo Cubes
2 Teaspoons of Vegatable Oil
Worcester Sauce
Salt and Pepper
Water

All lobbed in a pot and boiled for an afternoon!!

[Shack37]

could we have the braille translation.

what is a scouse???????


A person of Liverpool.

[jayteeto]

Whatever happened on Bloody Sunday does not justify the years of trouble. I know an ex-para who said 'whatever the enquiry said, we had incoming fire from the crowd'. He couldnt identify a target in the crowd, so anyone who did shoot was most likely wrong.
Back on thread, McGuinness didn't just attack British soldiers, he cold bloodedly targetted women and children, off duty police, journalists whose articles he didnt like, TV crews who made him look bad. Not a stray missile or a mistake in sight. You cannot compare chalk with cheese. I never had a problem with the 'average' IRA volunteer, they fought for what they believed in. My problem is old Marty boy. Callous Bastard.

[dubbleyew eight]

have you guys ever realised that you are close to understanding why the shia and sunnis have been at each others throats for centuries.

[Heathrow Harry]

History shows that sending heavily armed military who are hyped up into contact with civilians is a recipe for total disaster

I doubt there is a country in the world that doesn't have a tragedy like Bloody Sunday on its books somewhere

As for the IRA - they couldn't win so they reformed (like so many"liberation" movements) - we don't forget but we should put it where it belongs - in the past

[ricardian]

Have just seen this (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-24186099) on the BBC news website A plumber has found 140,000 euros (£118,000) under a bath inside a house that was repossessed from a former IRA hunger striker, it has been reported.

[irishmusico]

Forgive for yourself and let it go. Holding onto resentment and anger only does damage to you. All the feelings you feel are totally justified,but letting go of the anger by forgiving will be good for you. I can't speak for Martin Mc Guinness but maybe he is trying. A lot evil was done by all sides and conflicts carry on to a new generation because parents influence their kids and the cycle continues on and on,on both sides. To break the cycle somone has to forgive.

The queen shook his hand,they did not hug,but it is a step in the right direction.
When/if you let it go,you will feel the anger physically leave your body.

[racedo]

Have just seen this (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-24186099) on the BBC news website Quote:
A plumber has found 140,000 euros (£118,000) under a bath inside a house that was repossessed from a former IRA hunger striker, it has been reported.

You missed posting that he was a builder and property developer...........anybody who has ever dealt with a builder (and alledgedly) doing a cash job will know it never gets declared.

[barnstormer1968]

I have just skimmed through this whole thread, and so have probably missed a lot of good points.

The thread is about whether we can forgive and forget.
If that is relating to us as individual people then yes we should forgive, and no we should never forget.

To forget is to not learn from the past, and allows us to make the same mistakes again.

Gerry, Martin and the gang were not nice folks IMHO, and I cannot understand how they can look into a camera lens or face a conference and lie through their teeth, and still sleep soundly at night. I do however know they couldn't care less if I forgive them or not, so if I don't then I'm THE ONLY PERSON suffering pain and anger! Why should these nasty buggers have any hold over my emotions or feelings?

I could be wound up to boiling point and it would make no difference to them, only me.

To forgive can be very difficult at first, but it allows one to carry on in life and progress. The alternative is to have part of your brain and emotions stuck in an everlasting time warp.

[Romeo Oscar Golf]

A lot of articulate well discussed and meaningful comment .....however: That evil mound of vile ****e, McG, will die some day and then I wont have to worry about forgiveness. I'll certainly never forget.
Mind you at my age I'll probably go first, so I still wont have the forgive or not forgive dilema.

[ShyTorque]

Forgive for yourself and let it go. Holding onto resentment and anger only does damage to you.

Totally agree. Been there, done that, hit rock bottom and thankfully bounced. One day I realised there was nothing I could do (sensibly, without going to jail, that is) to change the situation I was put in by others who didn't give a damn about me, so I had to leave it behind me.

Until you do you remain a victim of yourself.

[Romeo Oscar Golf]

Forgive for yourself and let it go. Holding onto resentment and anger only does damage to you.
I have to disagree....It does not "do damage" for me, I'm far stronger than that. Tree hugging forgiveness would leave me in a pitiful state of nothingness. A vaste bog to be violated by the evil minded and intentioned of this world. That will not happen, I will hate, oppose and definately not forgive "evilness". Clearly I am not the fictional Jesus of the Scriptures. I can still drink, eat well, play golf, enjoy good music and admire pretty women, drive a fast car and enjoy life......I feel no overwhelming desire to forgive the likes of McG!

[Bill4a]

I was brought up to forgive where you can but never to forget! I think Shys remark re 'people who didn't give a damn about me' hits the nail on the head, for me at least, and many others I'm sure.
But for the IRA and its ilk I will neither forgive nor forget. :mad:

[barnstormer1968]

ROG

I don't agree with idea that forgiveness has anything to do with tree hugging in any way, but do think it has something to do with strength. I think it takes a MUCH stronger person to forgive.
Out of interest, do you think the likes of McG even has the slightest idea who you are, or could care less if you forgive or not?
This leaves us with the only person spending time thinking about this being you.
The opposite of hate is not love its indifference............ Once you forgive it means you can settle to indifference, but don't think for one second it means the person should not be punished, that's where not forgetting comes in. Punishment needs to reflect justice for a wrong doing, and not a personal vendetta.

I've met quite a few people who think to forgive is a sign of weakness. I ask them to think about something:
Have they ever dropped a cup or plate
Ever cheated on a partner
Ever lied or cheated
Ever crashed a car
Ever forgotten a birthday etc etc

All of them have, and all managed to forgive themselves.
Have you ever done any of the above and then not spent the rest of your life resenting yourself..............using your own rule maybe you are a tree hugger
:)

[ShyTorque]

This leaves us with the only person spending time thinking about this being you.

Precisely my point. Unless you can actually do something about the situation or person(s) causing you grief, you may as well just let it go. If you don't, I'm sure it can gnaw years off your life.

[Romeo Oscar Golf]

I can only repeat
I can still drink, eat well, play golf, enjoy good music and admire pretty women, drive a fast car and enjoy life......I feel no overwhelming desire to forgive the likes of McG!
I do not get hung up with hate and I don't give them a second of my time, it matters not that the evil barstewards do not know me and,consequently, my forgiveness (or not) would also be unknown to them.However I'm not trying to appease, change or in any way engage with them.
I've met quite a few people who think to forgive is a sign of weakness. I ask them to think about something:
Have they ever dropped a cup or plate
Ever cheated on a partner
Ever lied or cheated
Ever crashed a car
Ever forgotten a birthday etc etc

All of them have, and all managed to forgive themselves.
Have you ever done any of the above and then not spent the rest of your life resenting yourself..............using your own rule maybe you are a tree hugger
http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/smile.gif
Please barnstormer.....that hardly does you justice. Forgetting a birthday or committing mass murder probably lie in different camps when it comes to forgiveness!
Please be assured that I am completely "ohne angst" with regard these evil people, my time is fully accounted for looking after a very sick wife 24hrs a day for ever. The question was ....... IRA can we forgive and forget? The answer from me is no.

[jayteeto]

I'm going with 'No' as well. It doesn't eat me up or adversely affect my life, I just can't.

[Parson]

No and no.

We will never forget. To forgive requires some contrition to be shown starting with regret, apology, admitance of wrong doing. Gerry Adams won't even admit he was in the IRA.

[Deepest Norfolk]

I think much of the point here has been argued without being seen by some.
The fact that these people neither know me or care about me and whether I forgive them or not is the crux of the whole matter. These cowardly b'stards targeted, indiscriminately, people who they neither knew or (patently) cared about. They knew not if people the were targeting were sympathetic to their cause or just plain innocent children walking by. They just planted bombs and skulked away.

Forgive, never. Find them and drop them in a bog after torturing them , every time.

DN

[Lancman]

Forgive, no. Forget, never. Revenge, no.

[moggiee]

I can't forgive or forget. However, that does not mean that I don't appreciate that things are now better than they were and that this has been achieved by a degree of appeasment. I also retain the hope that Adams and McGuinness will get their just desserts some day.

John Major is to be applauded for having the balls to start the"peace process" rolling, even if Blair claimed the credit( as usual). Negotiating with the IRA must have left a nasty taste in his mouth but he knew that it was necessary for the greater good.

[Chugalug2]

Unless I have missed a post to the contrary, and forgive me please if that is the case, it would appear that those prepared to forgive, if not forget, are those who have little or nothing to forgive from a personal viewpoint. Unless one has personally suffered at the hands of these people, other than in the very general sense of being HM Forces, or merely "Brits", might I suggest that forgiveness is easier than if you had.
I met a group once of ex-POWs who had somehow survived being the guests of the Emperor of Japan (my Dad didn't). They had little to say (that generation never did), but there was nothing good in what they did have to say about the Japanese. Should I have told them that they should forgive? Rightly or wrongly I didn't.
I don't feel that personal animosity myself and like many others have embraced Japanese consumer goods, including cars, over the years. I still recognise the right of the members of that group to feel how they did though, just as I do for those who suffered at the hands of terrorist organisations of whatever hue.

[ShyTorque]

Unless I have missed a post to the contrary, and forgive me please if that is the case, it would appear that those prepared to forgive, if not forget, are those who have little or nothing to forgive from a personal viewpoint. Unless one has personally suffered at the hands of these people, other than in the very general sense of being HM Forces, or merely "Brits", might I suggest that forgiveness is easier than if you had.

Chugalug, some of us were closer to this than you could know, the OP being one, I'm another. I probably do know a little more than a lot of military folk of the time, or now, about what went on during "the troubles". I'm not sure if Jayteeto fulfilled exactly the same role as myself, but in general we come from the same background. I was personally quite badly affected by my personal experiences of those dark days. I'm not prepared to say exactly how in public but it had a severe knock-on effect on my family, which lasted years. Suffice it to say that I found turning up for duty thinking every day might very easily be my last then to be directly involved in the aftermath of events making it so for others, is a very sobering experience. Thankfully, I'm over all of that but it took a long time and part of that process was deciding not to be a victim of the past. Having said that, I still hold absolutely no sympathy whatsoever for the IRA or any other any terrorist organisation and individuals like the one mentioned in particular. I totally agree with the sentiments expressed here about he and Adams.

This possibly isn't the same sense as "forgive/forget" as some might see it. For myself it had to be about letting the past go and getting on with the rest of my life.

[AR1]

I never went to NI whilst in the mob, but they sure as hell came over here/Europe. For me the 'general sense of being in HM armed forces' meant issued with a mirror to check under my car, and walking my child to school with armed guards stood outside. So to say we weren't affected is pure hogwash.

Try turning the key with your family sat in the car then at that moment realising you forgot to check underneath.

But moving on.... I spent some time over there recently and I still struggle to reconcile the positive time I had whilst there with the negative images in my mind. If ever we get to ending the immediate violence in any situation be it Ireland or Syria, then both sides have got to deal with each other. It takes that generation to pass to fully move on. It's not ours to forgive or to forget, but to make it work so that others have that opportunity.

[Chugalug2]

Shytorque,
You have said enough for me to realise that you personally suffered as a result of the actions of these terrorists, and that you were not alone among those who have posted here. That you and they can move on is a tribute to you all and, as I said in my post, please forgive me if I grouped you in with others, like myself, who did not personally suffer.
I remember flying some of the first troops into Belfast to be feted by the locals, and then spat at, and then stoned, and then shot at, and then mined and mortared. If they can now forgive, they have my respect. If they cannot, they still have my respect. Either way their feelings, like yours, are of far more significance than mine, a mere onlooker in this great suffering of all sides.
AR1,
I like you was "in the general sense in the armed forces". I didn't say we weren't affected, of course all of us were. I merely said that most of us, unlike the OP and ST, didn't suffer. If some of us are/are not forgiving simply for being affected, so be it.

[barnstormer1968]

Chugalug2

I don't think you missed anything, but some posters here were involved in the thick of things as far as I know..

I for one was not able to forgive anyone for over ten years, but once I learned to forgive (anyone) it made life a lot easier, so I suppose I'm looking from both points of view.

ROG
I'm sorry if my post to you was a bit snappy, but I didn't like being lumped in with tree hungers :)

[Romeo Oscar Golf]

Thanks Barnstormer, no offence taken and I know none was intended.:ok:

[ShyTorque]

Chugalug2, Thanks. I sent you a PM.

[langleybaston]

I was at JHQ Rheindahlen during the worst of the exported terrorism. On the night of our arrival we were housed as a family in Cassels House, opposite the NAAFI car park. A very large car bomb was in that car park but failed to explode. I was told subsequently by an officer who most certainly knew what he was talking about that, had it gone off, Mr and Mrs LB and four children would have been wiped out.

So my answer is NO and NO.

Every own goal thereafter was greeted by applause in our house.

[Shack37]

As I said in an earlier post I was born and bred in Belfast (Prod persuasion). I lived in a street in East Belfast of mixed Prod/Catholic population roughly between two opposing strongholds/ghettoes. After attending our corresponding separate schools all us kids gathered on the street to play football and all of us had best mates on the "other side". There was no them and us in our street.

On a personal note.
After serving my last three years at RAF Ballykelly I lived there again for some years between trips away in my new civvy job. One night I went to a pub a bit up the road in a strongly protestant area. The bar staff consisted of two catholic sisters (no not nuns;)) from a strongly nationalist area just a few hundred yards away.
A loudmouth bigot began giving the girls a hard time, accusing them of reporting his mate to the police for some loutish behaviour in the bar. I knew the real story and told the guy it was not the girls who reported his mate. I also told him that both girls, wanting to avoid problems, had told police they did not want the matter to go any further, only to be informed that the police were proceeding on their own.

As a result of my silly intervention the loudmouth followed me out as I left, pushed me down the stairs and legged it.

After a clean up I was again about to leave when said hero was spotted outside the bar with five mates waiting for me.

I have no room for forgiveness for any of them and I don't lose any sleep over it.

[racedo]

John Major is to be applauded for having the balls to start the"peace process" rolling, even if Blair claimed the credit( as usual).

At least give the credit where it is due............John Hume started the talking and was roundly abused by London media and the Govt for doing so.

[satsuma]

Father Alec Reid.

[RUCAWO]

Can I forget Stewart Montgomery, 18 yrs old on his first hour of duty in Pomeroy , blown up by a culvert bomb on his way to a call, before he went to the Depot he was a cadet who worked with my section, as he couldn't drive we helped transport him to Pomeroy. Can I forget my cousin Chris Angus who should have been in the car with Stewart but had to remain in the station to take a statement, due to feelings of guilt he shot himself a year later.
Can I forget Brian Quinn , shot dead by the IRA carrying out that great act of war ,robbing a post office.
Can I forget Derek Breen.
Can I forget Malcolm White , blown up by a landmine outside Omagh on his first day after promotion to Sgt and transfer to the DMSU, he lived for two days after the explosion.
Can I forget crawling through the ruins of the living accommodation in Carrickmore looking for what was left of Paul Clark following a mortar attack.
Can I forget the phone call from SB telling me I was under direct threat and needed to move house.
Never and I never will forgive the scum involved.

[Shack37]

Never and I never will forgive the scum involved.


RUCAWO
And many, many more. To use your format:
How can I forget Winston (Doc) Finlay?
Doc was a friend at Ballykelly who joined the RUC after leaving the RAF. Murdered by IRA gunmen on his own doorstep.

[Courtney Mil]

Goodness, I hardly know what to say in reply, RUCAWO. Except to say that I think your post throws many of the statements here into stark contrast. Easy to say that everyone must forgive. But easy to see how difficult it must be for many that were so deeply involved and on the receiving end.

As I said before, before forgiveness there needs to be remorse.

[OutlawPete]

Although I didn't know him, the one name that sticks in my mind is Mick Islania, shot in Germany by an IRA unit whilst out with his family. His 6 month old daughter was killed too (this was claimed to be collateral). Its understandable when some say they could never forgive or forget.

Personally, I think the fundraisers who piped cash across to the IRA were just as bad as those pulling the trigger.

[RUCAWO]

Just a point Brian and Paul were both Roman Catholic ,not that it makes any difference.
Derek was returning home from visiting his ill father, he stopped at a local pub for a pint and was on the phone to his wife, he saw the gunmen entering ,shouted a warning and was immediately shot down, the barman was also killed and the terrorists then planted a bomb that exploded later destroying the pub.
Malcolms brother in law was killed by the IRA in a similar attack in 1986. Malcolm had been a guest at my wedding a month before he was murdered.

[teeteringhead]

For obvious (to those who know me) reasons, I remember Edward Wilson, a 16 year old Air Training Corps cadet who was killed in January 1975 by an IRA booby trap bomb targetting the Air Training Corps Squadron building. FFS!

How brave an attack that was ..........

[Edited to add wrt the next post - No 1919 was the ATC Sqn concerned.......]

[RUCAWO]

1919 still have the Phoenix as their crest and the Edward Wilson trophy is still presented at the Wing athletics,