The latest one...

[Cecco]

A (so far at least) reputable operator in southern Germany now obliges its new freelance pilots to pay the overnights themselves and...the yearly checkride has to be done in the simulator and paid by...you guessed it...the pilots.

Makes me wonder if we end up paying the fuel as well...???

Cecco

[Anthony Supplebottom]

Ah yes, I heard that Michael O'Leary was going to do something in Germany!

[FLEXJET]

Let me guess: FAI?
Do you mean reputable as per German standards?

[CaptainProp]

Is there not a note somewhere in OM A Chapter 7 "Definitions" along the lines of "Home base - Company needs to assign each crew member a home base..."? Further down under "Rest", "when away from home base.....company will provide suitable accommodation for ALL crew members..."

On the other hand, what to expect from companies hiring pilots with ratings they never completed proper training for. Not only that, also heard that one of the companies mentioned in the fake typerating rumours over past couple of months actually sent a post holder for "training" on the Gobal with one of "those" TRTOs.

Companies and managers setting the standard right?

CP

[Cecco]

Reputable by anybody's Standard. It's not FAI but you were close...

Of course, sim Training is a huge asset for safety improvement but if you have to pay it yourself each year...???

Cecco

[CaptainProp]

If you are paying for the training then that should be reflected in your hourly freelance rate.

CP

[epsum]

Its NOT only the managers .. sadly. I have done a small bit of contract work by myself. Usually our normal rate for short term contract is about 800 euros per day (plus per diems, accom and flight tickets in business). But last time I have had couple of refusals, because couple older TRI/TREs in midsize bizjet have did exactly the same work for 500 euros per day! Outrageous... I'm absolutely sure, that they KNEW the current market rate, but due their personal abilities they only can find lousy contract job and their only sale argument is cheap price.. And thats the point, whats actually worriyng me.
If managers find that it's ok to go for the cheapest, then I think, that it's more correct to blame our colleagues, who do whatever it takes, to get the position.

And I'm quite happy, that in current economic climate, I have generous permanent contract which allowes me to do occassional contract work.. And I dont have to sell myself cheap to get food on my table

[BizJetJock]

I'm a bit confused here. Training should always be paid for by your employer - but if you're freelance then you are the employer, therefore you pay for it yourself. As others have said, this should then be reflected in the rate you charge.
Similarly, as a freelance I don't have a company credit card so have often paid for overnights myself - but again this is added to the invoice so there is no problem in the long term.
And since the advent of EASA Part-FCL, all training must be done in a sim if it is available. AFAIK all the NAA's are interpreting "available" as meaning existing anywhere in the world, regardless of cost. So it's hardly fair to blame the company for that one!
All in all, someone complaining about a non existent problem.
People undercutting the market with unrealistic rates, on the other hand, is a major issue :mad:

[CaptainProp]

And since the advent of EASA Part-FCL, all training must be done in a sim if it is available. AFAIK all the NAA's are interpreting "available" as meaning existing anywhere in the world, regardless of cost. So it's hardly fair to blame the company for that one!

Of course you can, and should, blame companies/managers AND local authorities!! They are ALL responsible for making sure that regulations are followed and that companies provide their crew with the necessary training to maintain a safe operation. "Training" in aircraft to replace simulator training is neither safe nor in line with current regulations.

CP

[BizJetJock]

I agree simulator training done properly is superior to training in the aircraft; however, training in the aircraft done properly is superior to simulator training done poorly.
Training in the aircraft is in no way "unsafe" (again with the caveat of being done properly), but it is now against the regulations.
The implication of the OP was that having to do training in the sim was a requirement of the company. I was just pointing out that this is not the case.

[Energetic Pilot]

Aerodienst is next door...

[Cecco]

They pay for the overnights themselves and don´t get it back, that´s the point...

Cecco

[Trim Stab]

They pay for the overnights themselves and don´t get it back, that´s the point...

Cecco

What happens if they turn down the flight, on the grounds that it is not worth undertaking if they have to pay their own accommodation? They are freelance, after all. Does the company have other pilots they can call up?

I previously worked for a company like that. They tore up my contract and put me on "freelance", with abysmal rates. I didn't have much choice at first but to accept the rates and carry on, but then one day the Chief Pilot rang me to tell me that there was a flight booked for the next day, and that I should report at 6am to the airfield. I told him - "sorry, I am flying for another company tomorrow - can't make it!". He had to cancel the flight - which was with a regular client. He soon realised that you can't actually run a reliable operation using freelance pilots.

[Cecco]

The freelance aircrew being offered the "new" contract have the pay-it-yourself clause in their contract. Freelance people, who have been longer with this company get their overnights paid/reimbursed. However, I imagine that their contract is subject to change for the worse soon. People who have a fix job there get their overnights/flight training paid.

Cecco

[No RYR for me]

I thought Aerodienst too... Correct? :hmm:

[Trim Stab]

From the Aero-Dienst website:

Our highly trained and highly motivated employees are the core of our success.

Can't possibly be them then....

Jobs (http://www.aero-dienst.de/en/unternehmen/jobs.html)

[CaptainProp]

The freelance aircrew being offered the "new" contract have the pay-it-yourself clause in their contract.

So the new freelance rate equals old rate and per diem + €250 per day.

How do these companies get around ESET, CRM and other company linked training requirements when using freelancers? Fake training documents here as well?

CP

[what next]

How do these companies get around ESET, CRM and other company linked training requirements when using freelancers? Fake training documents here as well?

Why cheat? Freelancers can participate in these courses just like the employed pilots. Only that some companies charge them for the course, I am told.

And regarding the self-paid overnights: When I was freelancing back then I actually preferred to pay for my own hotel (of my own choice) and claim the official per-diem allowance. Because I could deduct the hotel cost from my taxes and the per-diem is tax-free, so overall it was better. As long as we don't know the exact contract terms of these guys it is a bit difficult to judge what's going on. Too much hearsay and twittering as far as I am concerned.

[CaptainProp]

So as a freelance pilot, on top of paying for hotels and simulator training, which is ok as long as the daily rate reflects that, you also fly around to perhaps 3-4 companies every year doing company training, all out of your own pocket? Right.

My guess is that the majority of freelance pilots out there are not completing the required training. Even if they wanted to, these companies would just tell them to wind their neck in and take the job or they'll get other pilots to do the job. For less money. Lets not even get started on insurance coverage when doing freelance jobs...... This is a can of worms that has been discussed here before. In my opinion proper insurance coverage can be ensured, the problem is that many pilots forget to check this, not with the operator, but directly with the insurance company.

CP

[Trim Stab]

I think it is about time that EASA made it a requirement for AOC flying that all crew have permanent contracts, with their rosta declared in the contract.

I know from my own brief and unpleasant experience when I was forced by my employer to go freelance that it is detrimental to safety. The financial insecurity added to my personal stress before I even got to the aircraft. I had absolutely no rosta and was on call 24/7 which basically ruled out any social life. Then, as I had to take another non-flying job to make ends meet, I found myself reporting for duty on occasions not properly rested (maybe 2 hours sleep on one occasion). It was also very divisive amongst crews because some remained on fixed contracts, and others not.

If EASA made freelance flying illegal on AOCs it would put most of the cowboy operators out of business too.

[His dudeness]

t was also very divisive amongst crews because some remained on fixed contracts, and others not.

In an operation I flew on a fixed contract, we were working our butts off before and after flights with additional duties, the freelancers would come, fly and go.

Thus we didn´t like them too much.

My best guess is it that there is no chance to forbid freelancing. Operators could be obligied to provide training and ratings.

Won´t happen, cause there is no lobby....

[Trim Stab]

Won´t happen, cause there is no lobby....


Yep, it'll probably take a crash before EASA does anything. Just like FAA waited until the Colgan crash before taking steps to correct some of the abusive practices in the US.

[what next]

... the freelancers would come, fly and go. ... Thus we didn´t like them too much.

Yes, unfortunately this kind still exists. Sometimes I put a couple of Jeppesen revision envelopes in their post boxes. On or two have understood the message...

My best guess is it that there is no chance to forbid freelancing.

And why? I have been freelancing in different professions most of my life and out of my own will, because in my country you are far better off financially and tax-wise. And if you want to have two professions in parallel then freelancing may be the only way to go as part-time employment is rather difficult to find. (It took me twenty years to find a decent part-time job in business aviation, that's why I now am employed). With all the companies I flew before as freelancer, I always participated in all required training courses. Always at the expense of the company. It is possible.

[Trim Stab]

Yes, unfortunately this kind still exists. Sometimes I put a couple of Jeppesen revision envelopes in their post boxes. On or two have understood the message...

Just what sort of company relies on freelancers to do a tedious but safety critical task such as updating Jepps? Astonishing...

You confirm my opinion that operators who employ freelancers are short on safety.