Flying a Piper Archer into Clacton

[hegemon88]

Hello everyone,

I thought I'd turn here for some advice. I am planning a trip to Clacton in a few days time in a much-below-MTOW Archer II. During my training (on a Warrior) I heard in my club legendary stories about "people having problems landing" at Clacton due to a short-ish runway, which is making me a bit apprehensive. On one hand it is simple - do W&B and performance calcs before setting off, if LDA < landing distance required, abort the plan. LDA seems to be sufficient, but due to the said legends I decided to ask here: is there anything special about Clacton that makes it a difficult place to land a PA28? Any advice gratefully received.

Thanks,


H88

[piperboy84]

How long is the field ?

[Fly-by-Wife]

TORA 600m +/- 10, LDA 500m / 540m

Not a problem to get a PA28-161 Warrior in and out, 2-up, > 1/2 tanks. I know 'cos I have done so a few times!

How much more runway does the Archer II need?

Things to note are the displaced thresholds, and the public footpath right-of-way across the middle of the runway (pedestrians have priority, btw). Oh, and it's a grass runway.

FBW

[Jetblu]

If I can get a C310 and PA31 in, you can do a PA28. ;)

[EDMJ]

I fly from an airfield with a 400m paved runway and the local flying school has an Archer.

[dublinpilot]

It's all about using the correct technique and speed.

Rather than try a short runway, why not try landing using short field technique and speeds on a long runway and making sure that you are happy that you do land (and take off) consistently in the distance that will be available to you?

You'll also have to factor in any obstructions that might be at the shorter destination.

[jollyrog]

You can follow advice from a forum, much of which is probably quite sound.

Or, you can do your calcs as per the POH and apply the CAA safety margins, as recommended.

If it all goes wrong on the day and you end up in discussion with your insurance company, one of the above will assist your claim.

[piperboy84]

Here ya go,


http://www.glasscockpitaviation.com/MainPages/documents/PA-28-181-POH.pdf

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/20130121SSL07.pdf

Bear in mind the POH is for a new aircraft, I would assume there is a bit degradation in performance of a club/rental machine with mid-time engine and prop with a few dings on it.

[thing]

Look at your POH and apply the safety factors as Jolly rog said. I often visit an airfield with a similar length runway and get a PA28-161 off in about half the length. Getting it in is easy (obviously given the right techniques), it's getting it out where you need to sweat the numbers.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Getting it in is easy (obviously given the right techniques), it's getting it out where you need to sweat the numbers.
Really?

My assumption is that it's the other way round - start from the end of the runway and the aircraft will take off within book plus fudge factors, no problem. Because starting (a) at the end of the runway (b) at zero height (c) at zero speed is easy to organise.

Landing, on the other hand, you're going to touch down somewhere or other, at some speed or other, given that in the real world one can only do one's best at approximating "the right techniques".

[BackPacker]

Gertrude, that's why the CAA safety factor for take-off is only 25%, while the factor for landing is 43%. The approach introduces some additional variability which you don't have on take-off: Taking off from the precise start of the runway is much easier than landing exactly on the threshold.

[piperarcher]

No problem, I have been there in a Piper Archer a few times with 2 of us and full tanks - 1 hour of fuel. The only issue I had was literally getting the wheels stuck in the mud. However we were advised it was soggy and offered parking the other side of the airfield, and we foolishly declined. I started up, programmed up the GPS's and all the rest, tried to move away and nothing. We shut down, and somehow rocked the aircraft out of it's little trenches we had just made. If you're concerned about the take off, do a short / soft field take-off to give you a bit more clearance.

Nice airfield. Sometimes not all that easy to find, but if you cut through the housing estate, its only 5 mins walk to the beach.

[thing]

Gertrude, that's why the CAA safety factor for take-off is only 25%, while the factor for landing is 43%. The approach introduces some additional variability which you don't have on take-off: Taking off from the precise start of the runway is much easier than landing exactly on the threshold.

Bet me to it. but thank you anyway.

[hegemon88]

My assumption is that it's the other way round - start from the end of the runway and the aircraft will take off within book plus fudge factors, no problem. Because starting (a) at the end of the runway (b) at zero height (c) at zero speed is easy to organise.

I couldn't agree more with the above. Landing is my main concern. Taking off using the STOL technique, in this dry weather and 200lbs short of MTOW should go OK I think if I'm briefed and prepared.

You can follow advice from a forum, much of which is probably quite sound.
Or, you can do your calcs as per the POH and apply the CAA safety margins, as recommended.

Yes, I did the latter before posting here ;) With the CAA safety margin it is marginally OK, i.e. the result will depend on temperature and headwind on the day. What I thought of getting out from here was any additional risk factors specific to Clacton - which I now know to be the path in the middle and obstacles around.

Thank you all,



/h88

[Jetblu]

The footpath is a non event. Pedestrians will usually see/hear you coming and usually standby to watch the movements, so do not worry about running anybody over. You can see the footpath in the middle of the runway here.

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=clacton%20airfield%20runway%20length&source=web&cd=5&cad=rja&ved=0CEQQFjAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.clactonaeroclub.co.uk%2Findex.php%3Fpag eid%3D15&ei=cSMjUpnvD8iThQe7koFA&usg=AFQjCNE4ArVFlFmERjCTNxgpJY7QP-ywQQ

You cannot afford for any floaters into Clacton or any short strip for that matter. The art here is to come in with bags of power just behind the drag curve, so when you pull the throttle over the numbers, a nice positive touchdown is near immediate.

Another tip, obviously dependent on winds/runway in use. If using 18. At the top is the engine runup area. Along the boundary is a hedge. From the runup area I taxi hard up alongside the hedge and as I turn onto runway heading immediately open the throttles without stopping. 3 or 4 knots start is better than a standing start.

[foxmoth]

Some years ago I acted as safety pilot for a member from a certain club in Blackpool with his Seneca, got into Clacton no prob with me giving him a few hints - I then left and then the "Boss" went down with him, apparently got high (as happened with me, but I talked him down OK), "Boss" took over and had to ground loop at the end to avoid the hedge - very satisfying as he had been boasting in the bar about how much better HE was at short field landings!
The lesson here is that, if the figures are OK and you use the correct technique, it should be no problem. Get either wrong and it can be a problem?:hmm:

[englishal]

I'd normally be more concerned about getting out of a short field than into one.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Taking off from the precise start of the runway is much easier than landing exactly on the threshold.
Today I was able to land and stop reliably in 360m, book figure plus fudge factors is 374. Which I suppose gives me some confidence that the sums give plausible answers.

Twice of the four attempts I'd stopped by 250m, the other twice I needed the 360m. But I knew early on that those two were lousy and could have gone around if I'd needed to.

On take-off I was well into the air by 250m.

Clacton next I think!

[Johnm]

As a simple rule of thumb, if a Warrior will do it an Archer will do it with ease. An Archer is basically a Warrior with more horsepower.

[Halfbaked_Boy]

I'm with englishal on this one...

Regardless of the why's and how's of the CAA 'safety margins', generally TODR is greater than LDR. And in a balked landing situation, you have a bit of kinetic energy/altitude/no rolling friction to help you out with full power. Whereas the decision to reject a takeoff from a shortish grass strip must be taken at a point that becomes an exponentially increasing fine line in a very short space of time.

I've landed within 200m. in strips that, on the same day, in the same aircraft, require nearly 500m to 50 ft!

[Jetblu]

Who remembers bouncing the old PA28 140's out of short strips by pulling 2 stages of flap at the end of the t/o roll ? :}

[fireflybob]

Re landing - pick a point to land on - if the wheels are not on ground by said point then Go Around!

It all starts with deciding where you want to touchdown.

After Go Around when at circuit height do some fault analysis as to why it didn't work before.

Happy Landings!

[Fly-by-Wife]

As a simple rule of thumb, if a Warrior will do it an Archer will do it with ease. An Archer is basically a Warrior with more horsepower.
I wouldn't bet on it - I'm pretty sure that the Archer is heavier and that the POH states both a longer landing distance and take-off run than a Warrior.

FBW

[mary meagher]

It wasn't an Archer, and it wasn't Clacton. And the engine wasn't a Lycoming, which is what I was used to.

Private grass strip, rather short. Tall trees at each end. The grass strip, dry enough, and recently cut. But surrounded by turnips.

I am being coached by the co-owner of the Raleigh Minerva, who is sitting in the right hand seat. Made an acceptable takeoff and landing into the 5 knot headwind. So he suggested I try it the opposite direction, just to see how it felt.

With that slight tailwind, I was NOT a happy bunny that I could stop in the grass strip, so decided to go around. And shoved in the throttle.
The Franklin engine stopped immediately. We didn't. We trickled off of the remaining runway into the turnips, which were a bit soggy, so the Minerva, estimated speed, 5 mph, nosed down.

Why is it in one's most embarrassing moments that spectators appear out of nowhere? They did help us push the Minerva out of the turnips, and after washing the mud off the prop and other parts, the old Franklin decided to run. We couldn't find any damage whatsoever.

I never did become comfortable with the variable prop, or the Franklin, and so ended up with dearly beloved and reliable 150 Cub, G-OFER. From 1987 until 2012 we were very happy together. She now can be flown at White Waltham with the West London Aero Club. These days I am sticking to gliders, with a safety pilot. Anno dominos.

[hegemon88]

As a simple rule of thumb, if a Warrior will do it an Archer will do it with ease. An Archer is basically a Warrior with more horsepower.
I wouldn't bet on it - I'm pretty sure that the Archer is heavier and that the POH states both a longer landing distance and take-off run than a Warrior.

Beat me to it!

Anyway, forecast says 10kt wind precisely across the runway at Clacton, so it looks like I'm taking my wife and kids somewhere else tomorrow. One of these days I'll go to EGSQ in a spamcan on my own first and check the lie of the land.

Thanks again for all the advice.


/h88

[Ebbie 2003]

I have an Archer II

Think you will get out OK using the POH short field technique - been a decade since I was last there and there were/are no obstacles.

Would be a little concerned about getting in and stopping if grass wet and there is a cross wind needing a few extra knots on the airspeed - so short field technique (be ready to go around) and when you do get down raise the flaps immediately - it has a huge effect on the braking on mine, really plants it on the ground.

[Piper.Classique]

Would you care to explain why a crosswind needs extra airspeed? I understand that without a headwind component you will have a higher groundspeed than if you had a headwind, but I don't understand why a cosswind should influence your CAS.

[Johnm]

The Archer 2 is about 70 pounds heavier than a Warrior which is accounted for by the bigger engine. So loaded weight is all that is significant and an Archer will lift more for similar landing and take off performance, or get better landing and take off performance for a reduced load.

Extra knots for a crosswind makes no sense unless it's gusting then a few extra knots is wise as it would be for a gusting headwind.

[PENNINE BOY]

Have been in many times in a PA-28-180 (SLAB WING)

No problems at all, just check that your POH, not sure about the the Archer but the earlier PA28 POH only give performance figures for flaps up take off and no figures for any other flap config for a short field T/O.

P.B.

[thing]

Would you care to explain why a crosswind needs extra airspeed?

I tend to fly a heavy crosswind at a slower speed. Get the thing plonked on the deck and there's a good chance it will stay there, flapless as well if the runway length allows.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

and when you do get down raise the flaps immediately - it has a huge effect on the braking on mine, really plants it on the ground
Yep, that doesn't half help you stop ... but it throws away the go-around possibility, and we're always told that the landing isn't over until it's over.

[thing]

Yep, that doesn't half help you stop ... but it throws away the go-around possibility

Que? It won't be a go round for a start it will be a touch and go, touch and goes require that landing flap (if you have it set) be dumped, otherwise your touch and go will be missing the 'go' bit...:)

[Ebbie 2003]

Higher Speed

On the higher approach speed - you will see from my previous comment I am a great believer in following the POH - in my Archer's POH Section 4.29 6th para "In high wind conditions especially, particularly in strong crosswinds, it may be desirable to approach ...... at higher than normal speed..."

No one is going to be worried about the 3mph crosswind - if it's a concern it is going to be windy, blustery and have some speed to it.

I have found this to be useful normally I approach at 86mph and aim for 75mph over the fence - with a crosswind I keep to the 86 approach but keep it all the way to the power to idle and flare transition; it just seems less "wobbly" and the rudder seems more effective (I am a crab and kick rather than a slip person).

My experience is of a very long runway and with winds typically 20/24kts landing on a 09 with winds out of 120 to 140; oddly, for the first time since I've had my plane last Wednesday I got "...clear to land 09, winds calm" - it was horrible felt really peculiar.

Dumping Flap

As soon as you're on the ground you should be in a full stall (this is a short field landing we're talking about here) - you're not on the ground until you will not be going around and you have decided to brake - a crucial parts of the short field braking procedure is to be folding the nose wheel off and dropping the flaps (the nose thing helps on bumpy runways and should always be done).

Dumping flap is more important in low wing airplanes than high wing due to the ground effect being more pronounced but the principle holds good anyway. Assuming you have dome your great greaser landing - at that point your airplane weighs next to nothing since a lot of the weight is being counteracted by the lift acting on the wings and the brakes are not that effective (I will not bother to explain the difference between weight and mass) - take the flaps up and the lift reduced and the weight of the airplane increases increasing the braking effect; holding the nose up helps braking by adding drag as compared to a nose down pitch.

The effects are not that great in absolute terms but that extra five or ten seconds of efficient braking makes all the difference - if you ever see an airplane run off the end of a runway is usually would have "...been OK if only the runway was another 50ft longer...".

Read the POH

The take off at sea level (it is Clacton!), short field (i.e. 25 degrees/two clicks of flap) 75F, no wind take of at around 2000lb (the max in mine is 2550lbs - so as you describe it I am thinking 2000/2100 lbs - is under 1,000 for a 50ft obstacle. Of course this is for a hard surface - grass that needs cutting and some undulations and it will add to the roll - but if you can get in you should be able to get out.

Landing same conditions about 1300ft (longer) - factor in some wet grass, a bit of a float past the threshold and things could get interesting.

Personally, as part of my "personal minimums" I do not attempt to land mine on less than 2000ft asphalt runways at present but in 1.6hrs time I will have passed my milestone at which I will review and then Montserrat and Mustique (see a special endorsement/training to land there) here I come:)

[betterfromabove]

Hi,

Just to supply some specifics on Clacton, where I learnt at a few years ago (and don't think much has changed since).

It's relatively short for normal GA types (C152/172/PA28) at 600m, but it's the environment of the airfield that creates the challenges:

1. It's a few hundred metres back from the shore, so has an onshore sea-breeze blowing most days. Trouble is, due to the curved coastline, this comes in as an easterly, but the runway is N-S.
2. In the evening, this situation might reverse or give more runway-orientated wind, but not guaranteed. Expect a crosswind of 5-15kt most flyable days.
3. Whatever the conditions, be ready for different winds at circuit height: Commonly a westerly drift of 10-20kt. This makes planning the descent onto finals worth thinking through. For many visitors, they only realise how this has caught them out when they end up high/low on finals or over-cooking a base leg.
4. There's no OHJ, so need to try and read windsock while on D/W or finals
5. Arrival on 18 is over several streets of houses. People usually come in directly on normal trajectory, but if I was coming in these days I might do a curved approach or deliberately slightly high until I was over the field on the undershoot. I once saw a display pilot arrive using falling-leaf approach on this runway, which is probably the way to really solve the worry! 18 runs slightly upslope and good surface (slight bumps once off runway) and drier than 36 end in the winter.
6. Arrival on 36 is over the sea. 'Nuff said. Engine out options on undershoot however, since there is a beach and golf course (which have been used for this purpose). Watch out for high-sided vehicles and the lamp-posts on very short finals. Have seen a biplane nearly come a cropper on a vehicle on 3rd approach to that runway. There is a slight hump at the 36 end.
7. They say you should go around if not down by half-way on either runway. I think if two wheels weren't firmly down by just before the footpath I would be going around.
8. Departure on 36 is toward those houses. The locally based pilots do an immediate left turn over the far field and head toward the sports centre in the distance. There are fields underneath you there in case of EFATO. When at holding point, you can't see much of the runway. Be prepared to stop before half-way point / footpath for any reason.
9. Departure from 18 is toward sea. On hazy day, may be no horizon. Is the preferred departure direction however due to better EFATO options.
10. There's a public footpath across middle of runway (which you can't see while at 36 start of T/O roll). This is used by the local oiks to play chicken with arriving/departing aircraft. Sometimes they just lay down in middle of it (clever people, you'd have to agree....)
11. In winter, it gets muddy, especially at 36 end, so be prepared to do run-up checks elsewhere on field and do rolling departure, not stopping once moved away from run-up area.
12. There are more benign dog-walkers around the field who may stand and gawp on the 18 undershoot, although they generally freeze and stand still but may be right in your round out area and may have to go-around because of it....

I saw several PA28's going in to Clacton without too many worries and there's even been twins, although I hear PA34's are not advised there, due to prop clearance concerns while taxying.

Yes, a right long list, but many people would say it is more tricky than some farm strips and I think the info in the flight guides doesn't cover some of the important things to know. It's a great destination, but it does bite (I saw two minor accidents and one possible bad one in a couple of months), so there's a reason many flying clubs won't allow you to go in there solo with their aircraft.

Think of it as a farm strip and do your precautions accordingly.

Great Oakley is another option nearby and much easier to operate in and out of and still near-ish the coastline.

Hope that helps
BFA

[JAKL]

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/20130121SSL07.pdf

Recommended safety factors 1.33 take off and 1.43 for landing.

[foxmoth]

I once saw a display pilot arrive using falling-leaf approach

Never seen that - suspect you mean a side slipping approach - falling leaf goes from one side to another and cannot think of any reason anyone would use it for approach.:}

[thing]

They would certainly be on permanent finals with a falling leaf approach...:)

[hegemon88]

Clacton finally conquered - with 2 up and in a PA-28-...


...236 :cool:



/h88