Is it time we had a union?

[Night Rider]

Hi all,

Have you ever stopped to think why flying instructors are so badly paid? Well really, we've only got ourselves to blame. We're the ones that have been working hard for very little over the years. The flying schools have been getting away with murder!

A few years ago people did it to build their hours (old CPL route) but i'm glad to say times are changing. Its a difficult situation. Schools are reluctant to put prices up for fear of losing customers - thats understandable and I don't blame them for that.

What needs to happen is for instructors to stand together on this recurring issue of wages. Nothing is going to get better until we do!

If one school put its prices up by £20 per hour overnight they will probably lose customers but if if ALL schools increased there prices by £20 per hour it would make no difference!

What we need in the flying instructor world is a union.
Any other thoughts and comments appreciated.;) ;)

[BEagle]

But if all those schools put their prices up by £20 per hour, eevne more people would go to the US for training.

Then there would be even fewer work opportunities for Flight Instructors as more UK schools would fold.

Then some other hours-building wannabe with fluff on his chin would want the prices to go up by another £20.

The spiral would then continue until there was one school with one FI making £100K per annum training one millionaire per annum!

Get real - it's the harsh fact of market forces and the nonsense of 'hours building' by so-called instructors which causes this situation. Until the airlines face up to investing in their future aircrew properly, there'll never be a healthy state in the industry. There is a need for pilots to be professionally trained for jet/advanced turboprop first officer airline posts rather than for an endless stream of desperate people trying to find 'hours building' postions at small flying clubs in return for passing on their meagre skills and non-existent expereince to unfortunate students - and then expecting to be paid well for the privilege.....

[Night Rider]

Hi BEagle,

Be careful not to over generalise. I am an flying instructor and former airline pilot. I hold an ATPL/IR AND PPL EXAMINER authority - I do not consider myself to have "meagre" flying skills and experience. I take flying instruction seriously and do my best to deliver a good service.

To some extent I agree with you. I do know some instructors with a 200 hour CPL/IR and frankly, some of them don't know one end of the aeroplane from the other! Clearly they are only instructing to stay current - they have no real interest in teaching people to fly - therein lies the problem.

A possible way of addressing this issue is to make people wishing to be instructors seek approval first possibly from someone in authority like a CFI. They should then have a formal interview with the CAA. Obviously, this would not clear out all of the time wasting hours builders but it might help.

I think your prediction of a few FI's earing £100k a year is somewhat of an exaggeration.

If we had a government that knew what they were doing rules would be in place to restrict (or even better prevent) the amount of JAA (or CAA) training done abroad, particularly in the US. The yanks have massive advantages over us in terms of operating costs as I'm sure you are aware.

Regards,

[BEagle]

Sorry - I didn't intend to accuse you of being one of those hours-building 'instructor' wannabes one comes across in this game!

One of the simplest ways of making ourselves competitive in this country would be for the government to eliminate VAT on flying training and to cut Avgas duty and VAT to more reasonable levels. But can you see the current lot ever doing that?

At least overseas flying training in non-JAA member states now has to be 'approved'......

[Say again s l o w l y]

It is about time something was done.
I was once one of those 200 Hr instructors and yes I did know bu**er all, but over time I learnt, gained experience and competance in the same way that any person starting any new job would do.

It does annoy me that there is this attitude that all low time guys are useless, they may not be as good as very experienced people, but tell me in which job anyone is. The only pre-requisite to being a professional is a willingness to learn, as we all do all the time.

Should flying instructors be paid more?? Of course. I earn more as sailing instructor and I have friends who are fitness instructors and they get more than any flying instructor I have met.

The main problem in the U.K is shown in BEagle's post. We are always trying to compete with the US. Why?? Everything is different here from fuel costs, maintainance, insurance, landing fees etc. etc...
So if we can't compete on equal terms of cost, then we need to change how we ALL do business.

How is it that on Helicopters, most instructors earn around £30-60 an Hr. An R22 costs around £210/Hr and people are willing to pay it.
In most cases at the school I instruct at an extra £20/hr wouldn't be noticed by most people. They Know flying is expensive and that's that. Of course it would send a few off to the states, but in reality that number would be very few. Not many of the people I've met can afford the time (not the money) to go off and do a full time course in the US.
Unfortunately in the U.K there is an attitude that you can't make money from flying (ex. How do you make a small fortune from aviation?- Start with a big one.) Things like this hold an industry back.

Personally I never really wanted to be an instructor, it was just a way of hour building until I got a "proper" job. Now 18 months on I would love to stay as an instructor, but I can't afford to. So I got a proper job and have left the instructing on the back burner. So into my place comes another 200 Hr bloke and the cycle starts again. Very sad as my experience has been lost and my students will have to put up with a "sub-standard" (for want of a better phrase) until he gains in experience and confidence.

If anyone is thinking of starting a trade union or association then e-mail me as I'm interested and so should everybody else be.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

So as not to get all you Brits pi..ed off at me I will give my opinion on why flight instruction is getting less affordable and of a lower quality here in Canada.

The high cost:: .....

( 1 ) To many high taxes and user fees, ( government speak for more tax. )

( 2 ) To many Employees in Government making more and more stupid paper work and stupid requriements.

( 3 ) Another reason is that Canada has become the human garbage collection point of the world, due to our stupid refugee claim system. Hence more and more money required to support the garbage we cannot get rid of. Therefore less money available for the taxpayer to receive the services we are paying taxes for.

Quality of instruction:

The quality of instruction will be in direct porportion to the experience and skills level of the flight instructors available.

Should there be a higher level of experience required for the issuance of an instructors rating?

Hey... I realize the foregoing is a very simplistic overview, but has merit if you examine it.

Cat Driver:

......................
:D The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no.:D

[DFC]

Unions are organisations that make lots of money blowing hot air.

Why waste what little money an instructor may have on union fees.

Having a union will not change attitudes.

DFC

[Ludwig]

BEagle's right, it's all down to supply and demand. I am not a FI and so have no axe to grind on this, but I do use the services of FI from time to time and know a lot of FI's.

It is a sad fact of UK PPL training that the current pricing structure does not allow FI to be highly paid. Anyone who thinks a PPL training organisiation is making a mint is not living in the real world. It would I am sure be nice to have a FTO and pay all your instructors £25K a year and have a dedicated pool of motivated professional instructors, but like so much in the UK, the majority of PPL trainees buy down to a price and not up to quality. I have said elsewhere on pprune before that as long as this keeps happeneing with people shifting to cheaper organisations , no one can afford to pay decent wages, especially when there are so many hours builders, waiting for their airline break, who are willing to work for very little. It's a cut throat world out there. The best hope would be to force all the tiny mariginal operations out of business so the strong survivers could afford to pay good wages and make a good profit.

Don't forget that an FTO is a business, it's not a charity employing wannabes. The only reason they employ anyone is not make a profit. You might be a bit pissed off because of your low wages in a job you have chosen to take, but how much more pissed off would you be if you had hundred's of thousands of pounds invested in your FTO business and and making less return on capital than leaving the dosh in the bank.

All Unions will do is remove your abilty to do the work you do in many cases as the FTO owners will be unable to meet their Demands. If you think you are worth more than you currently earn, go and set up you own operation or get a better paid job. Don't whinge about the current position. If you cannot get a better paid job doing what you do, then you have found the market rate for your skills. :D

[Say again s l o w l y]

Ludwig, I can understand why somone in your position may find it frustrating if prices were to go up. It would cost more for revals, check outs etc..

But what we all seem to forget is the skill level needed to be a decent instructor, not to mention the qualifications. These are all very expensive to obtain, so an FI earning £8-10K is not really a feasible career choice.

The whole reason for this scenario is that it IS a cut-throat world, if somone is prepared to do a job for nothing, then no self-respecting business is going to turn them down. Unfortunately with PPL's allowed to instruct, but not allowed to be paid, this seriously devalues the profession, as by nature most people teaching on a PPL are doing it as a hobby and see it as "free flying" once or twice a week. For that amount of work it is fun, but try doing it 6-7 days a week, every week, it soon becomes a job like anyother. (maybe with a nicer office tho'!)

A Union could help as it would bring together all instructors who could then speak with one voice. It's the old "Together we stand, Divided we fall." If FTO's have to put their prices up, then so be it. Flying instructors have been expoited for a long time and unless there is a strong national voice then it will never change.

Of course there are ways to earn more money as an instructor, become an examiner, an IRI or a multi instructor for example. Unfortunately again this is all added expense and often hard to justify when you are at a lower level, for instance to become an IRI you must have at least 800Hrs IFR. Not easy to get teaching PPL's.

Ludwig, as for your comment as to finding your market rate etc, this maybe true, therefore the market itself needs to change.
Instructors alone cannot achieve this, it would obviously need the FTO's to help aswell and I cannot see many companies turning down higher turnover, aslong as all training organisations do this, then it won't be a problem.

Is any of this feasible?? Maybe. Over time and with a lot of pushing. As BEagle said, the Government could help by reducing tax and duty of costs .If they do that, then that could help alot. BUT has anyone actually aked them to do that. This is an example of where a trade union could be useful.

[Ludwig]

Say again S l ow l y, I don't disagree that the market should change. I am fortunate in that it makes little difference to me if the price is higher, but I know an aweful lot (or is that a lot of aweful:p ) PPL's and low hours Professiosals who will fly any ole heap of junk based entirely on the price. While we have this situation the position will not improve as there will always be someone selling the product, whether it's just a/c rental or instruction, cheaper than someone else. It is not helped by the high cost of AVGAS etc, but we all pay that so it's not a price differenciator.

Look at it this way. If you are a top quality FTO with good a/c well paid motivated instructors and nice coffee, your own well paid team of licenced engineers to maintain everything to top spec, with perhaps a spare a/c to cope with the inevitable tech problems, charging say £200 an hour for a C152, the vast majority of recreational "I can only afford a few hours a month " PPL (which is most of them) will go to the bloke next door who owns no a/c but operates them for impoverished owners to a lower spec, serves poor coffee and employs bored airline pilots and ATPL wannabes who either do it for a bit of weekend fun or to get those hours in.

Turnover is all very well, and yes I know cash is the life blood of a business, but profit is king.

How about this for a blue print for the FTO for the 21st Century:

Quality aircraft - no riped seats no missing dials or nav boxes;

Full time dedicated instructors paid a good wage whether they fly of not and not some kid with a couple of hundred Warrior hours who has yet to develope either maturity of personality;

Full time always available engineering department with spares in stock;

Nice comfortable club/ training facilities with the latest a/v aids;

This is all do-able but not if FTO are doing low cost hire to meet the low cost needs of the vast number of student and private hirers, whether PPL's CPL or ATPL's. Get rid of the shell suit brigade, cater only to those people who can afford to fly and are not price sensative, and people who recognise that you get what you pay for and are prepared to buy quality.

Aviation is full of people whose aspirations exceed their ability to pay for it. Get rid of them and there will be fewer struggling FTO, marginal operations, bored wannebes waiting for the right job, and more demand, and therefore earning capabilty, for those of you left to fill the professional instructor role.

[Say again s l o w l y]

I agree with your point completely. Most people who self hire are really on the look out for price, and why not. But to be honest the self fly hire cost doesn't really mean much to instructors. There are some places that do mostly training and very little Hire and there are places that are mostly about hire and a small amount of teaching. The two businesses are quite different and it does seem to be very hard to combine both a flying club and a professional school.
Personally I was taught to fly initially by BAe on a fantastic fleet of identical TB-10's, so maybe my judgement of what training a/c should be like is a bit skewed compared to reality.
This is why at some schools and airfields I've been to, I wouldn't even taxi some of the a/c, let alone fly them.
At the school I teach at we have a mixture of new planes and older machines, but all the older planes are in excellent nick.

I think that there does need to be a shake-up in the industry, but don't think that instructors are out to totally destroy it as it is. What really is needed is a change of attitude on the instructors part. If we had a union then there might be some feeling of solidarity, which could eventually lead to change. Nobody is demanding that all instructors should get £100/hr and £50K basic, because it's not feasible. (would be nice though!)
What we should do is to start a gradual change, starting with reducing the Government taxation. An extra £5-10 per Hr for most FI's would make a massive difference. I don't think this would be asking too much. Does anyone else agree??

[Night Rider]

Say again s l o w l y,

The last paragraph in your previous posts says it all - you hit the nail on the head.

I am a realist. I'm not trying to pretend I'm going to get £50,000 p.a. for doing what I do but I do think my job should pay £15K-£20K p.a. at least.

We instructors (particularly those experienced among us with Examiner ratings etc..) are not being unreasonable in what we are asking for. We shouldn't be expected to do the job for nothing just because its someone elses hobby!!!

[BEagle]

One point to NB is that when the rich pay for something, they expect to get it. If you charged £200 per hour to fly a C152 and after the flight you told the rich-bloke student that he needed to fly the trip again, you might well get the "But I paid, didn't I?" response......

[Flyingspaniard]

I think the rich folk you all talk about already have their expensive FTOs and they already have their cheap FTOs. If they want to pay extra they go to scabair and if they want cheap they go to the club next door.

It doesn't matter how you look at it the wage of an instructor is never going to go up unless there is a shortage and we all know there isn't much chance of that either presently or in the near future.

BEagle, I disagree with your comments about low houred instructors. Yes it's true that there is a lot for them to learn, but what they lack in experience, they have in enthusiasm. I have to say that with the amount of long faces I have seen in flying clubs lately I don't think I would want to be tought by a mature instructor, constantly wingeing about how much money he's on.

If it bothers you that much go work as a rubbish man or a train driver. They earn plenty of dosh. Furthermore when you say these instructor don't know what they're talking about, I would say that they probably picked up a book a lot more recently than you and probably understand the theory alot better than someone who hasn't studied in ten years or indeed got a BCPL and didn't do any theory at all!

Furthermore, it doesn't matter who I speak to at the airfield I teach at, there isn't an instructor there with or without vast numbers of hours who wouldn't take an air transport job if offered. So I guess that makes them all wannabes.

[Night Rider]

BEagle,

Robinson R22's are over 200 quid per hour and they havn't exactly got crystal chandeliers in them!!!

If the student didn't fly the sortie well its tuff s**t, he/she will have to do it again until they get it right. We don't make exeptions just because somebody we teach never wears the same pair of socks twice (so to speak).

Heli instructors average £40 - £60 per hour - whats going on in the fixed wing world???

[BEagle]

I certainly agree that many new FIs have considerable enthusiasm and I'm very glad that they do.

£30-£40 per hour to fly a R22? That would be a rate which most fixed wing FIs would dearly love to make. At the JAR maximum rate they'd be making £48K per annum. But which school would be the first to put its prices up by over £25 per hour? And would it price itself out of the market? Perhaps it would need a firm contract with the FI as well?

The current FI rating revalidation process does at least mean that 'theory' is revised not less than 3-yearly!

[Balance!]

I'm not sure that you can compare FI (H) rates with FI (A). It's certainly not that one FI is better than the other. It might be more to do with the fact that to become an FI(H) most will have spent around £45-60k (having to pay extra for the conversation to each machine they want to fly). Perhaps historically, helicopter schools have realised this and priced their rates accordingly. Of course, it could also be that FI(H)'s have all informally agreed not to undersell their services once they get there and thus hold the bargaining aces. So you could say that there is an informal 'union' of sorts I suppose.

I chose the helicopter instructor route maybe because I saw a better return on the investment (nothing to do with the fact that after rotary flying, fixed wing is just pants.... sorry, sorry uncalled for :D :D)
Interesting about the £30-£60per hour bit. I only know of £35 for FI(R) and £40 for FI. I'd best get out and check my contacts.

Balance!

[bladeslapper]

May I humbly suggest that the problem you all encounter is more than just a simple 'supply and demand' problem' It is perhaps arguable that there are too many instructors chasing the limited number of customers (many of whom are the wannabes) however the industry is a little like the foolishness of farming.
The farmer goes out and ploughs his fields, sows the corn and then watches it grow through the vagaries of unpredictable winter spring & summer in the hope that it will yield well at a price unknown till he comes to sell. (ok , so there are forward contracts)

Basically, loads of people hanker to fly, so they go and spend their hard earned or borrowed cash to pursue a dream, but without any guarantee of the rewards they aspire to at the end of the day. We all love to fly and will (or almost) prostitute ourselves to follow the vocation. Consequently, those following the instructional route to hour building etc are victims of their own weakness. A union might sound like a good idea, but with such a fragmented industry I don't believe it would work, because too many will continue to follow self interest to reach their goal, particularly as a considerable sum will have already been invested in the dream.

I am fortunate that I do not have to be a paid pilot to fly, but I sincerely wish you all good fortune in attaining the honey pot !

[Tiger_ Moth]

I think something should be done about instructors pay and maybe a union would be a good idea. I dont think £110/ hr is that much worse than say £95 or £100/hr. An increase like that certainly wouldnt stop me flying and im probably one of the more financially challenged students. You'd still get about the same number of students.

I am one of the seemingly small number of people who actually wants to be a flying instructor and to not move onto airlines but if I really couldnt make a living out of it then theres not much point in me saving up £25,000 to become something I wont even make a living out of.

If they did pay instructors better then you'd have more experienced instructors because they all wouldnt leave when they got however many hours it is they need to move on. Surely this would be better for the students as well.

[EddyCurrents]

Dear All

The topic seems to be about unions, with a hidden theme of low pay for instructors.

Unions for pilots/instructors in uk: IPA
BALPA
PFIA (Oxford only)

Short of a strike, resultant closure of lots of schools, increase in demand - pay won't go up. Unless the supply of new instructors slows down. PPL instructing is fun, it won't ever make you rich.

[t'aint natural]

Too many instructors.
Too few students.
Get real.