Head in the Clouds - Eventually

[flytheskies]

I am writing on here, as many do, seeking your wisdom and clarity on life as a commercial airline pilot in the UK.

A bit of background on me:

I’m 26 and will be 27 in December.

I come from a family of lawyers. My father is a lawyer, my uncles are all lawyers and my grandfather was a lawyer. Hence, at the tender age of 19 I decided to get a law degree and pursue the family ‘dream’. I successfully completed my degree and finished with a 2:1. I then went on to achieve a 73% average in my Bar finals and am now a barrister.

The only problem, is that I know – deep down – it isn’t what I want to do. I dislike it so much. The pressure from my family was immense and when I suggested (at 19) to my dad that I wanted to fly he asked me why I wanted to be a ‘glorified bus driver’. That, as well as the prospect of not having a degree, was enough to put me off at 19.

I was in the CCF RAF for a number of years and had the opportunity to fly almost once a month during my time there. It was here that I got the bug for flying and it hasn’t left me.

I am now in the process of gathering as much information as possible in order to decide what the best course of action in my life is going to be. That’s where you come in.

I have read a few posts on here and am overwhelmed by the vast, differing opinions of the industry. Hence why I have set this thread up.

I need some clear advice on everything - from medicals to where to train and how to fund it. I am sure there are a number of options but honestly, I dont know where to start.

Initially, I have a friend finishing a degree at Kingston University at the following link: Aviation Studies for Commercial Pilot Training Foundation Degree FdEng and top-up year BSc(Hons) - Clearing 2013 entry course - London undergraduate courses - Kingston University London (http://www.kingston.ac.uk/undergraduate-course/aviation-studies-2013/)

She speaks very highly of it. What do you, the experts, think?

The other options are as follows:

1. Find a loan and fund flying school (Oxford, CTC etc.) myself. This will be very difficult financially.

2. Go to Florida and qualify there. Does anyone know what the implications are of qualifying in the States and returning to pursue a career in the UK? Is this possible? I've heard it's cheaper - but if so, why doesnt everyone do it? I was thinking of this place as another one of my friends is there now: Flight School, Airline Pilot Training in Florida, USA - Phoenix East Aviation (http://www.pea.com)

3. Do a PPL and build my license on a modular basis over the next few years.

I am sure I have missed options. Any advice would be much appreciated.

Thank you in advance.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Why do you want to be a commercial pilot? There was a time when it was an aspirational career in terms of status, pay, and perks, but it's no longer the job it was except for some who are well established in their careers, and they are the last generation who will enjoy the job as it used to be.

Indeed, it has never been particularly intellectually demanding to fly an airliner. Your dad's 'bus driver' comment was incorrect as airline flying is much more demanding than bus driving in its complexity, descision-making requirements, and leadership demands. But it's a job you leave behind at the end of each flight. Just like a bus driver, train driver, or post man. It's demanding of course, and not everyone could do it, but intellectual it ain't.

Why not stay with Law, earn a shedload of dosh, and enjoy flying as a hobby, on your terms rather than some 'Michael O'Leary's' terms?

[flytheskies]

Thanks for your views Shaggy Sheep Driver.

What is changing so much in the industry to make it different to the previous generations?

My dads comments were to try and put me off and unfortunately it worked when I was younger. I need to make sure this is the right decision and get as much information as possible in order to make that decision. I want to make sure I dont have a 'sexed-up' delusion of life as a pilot in my head.

I'd love to hear from pilots that love the job and equally plots that hate it and want out. I want to know their reasoning for both.

Do you know of any forum or thread I can get that type of information if it's not going to come to me on this particular thread?

(p.s. Have I posted it in the right place?)

[flyinkiwi]

(p.s. Have I posted it in the right place?)

Probably not, here (http://www.pprune.org/professional-pilot-training-includes-ground-studies-14/) is where you should ask. As a private pilot I endorse ShaggySheepDriver's view. Stay with a decent earning profession and enjoy flying on your terms instead of someone elses.

[AdamFrisch]

I had the same thoughts when I was 19. I wanted to fly for a living. But I was foreseeing enough to realise that one day even that would become boring. Plus I was also equally into film and thought that would be a fun career. I'm so glad I made that choice. Yes, it took many years of struggle and poverty to become successful within my profession, but today I enjoy the best job in the world that takes me to all corners of this earth, where no day is like the other and where I can afford to sustain a pretty expensive hobby: to fly and be an aircraft owner.

I never try to discourage people from following their dreams, because if you're interested in something, you automatically become good at it. However, in aviation, I'm inclined to say is the sole exception. It doesn't matter how good you are as a pilot there, all that matters is how much that piece of paper says. There is no reward for excellence in aviation, unlike all other businesses. I think, if you at all can find something within law interesting, it will be a much more rewarding life. One can even specialise in air law etc. And still full of flying. I know a lot very successful lawyers who fly very, very nice planes - and they fly a lot. Planes I could never afford. And they don't have to get up at 4am, or sleep in a pilots lounge, eat bad food, get paid peanuts, fly crappy low cost carriers and not see their family for fortnights. Be that lawyer that flies his own TBM850 to meetings in Europe. The one we all hate, but secretly envy..;)

[AberdeenAngus]

You have done the right thing. You now have a 'trade' to fall back on and have met the expectations of your family.
Now, while you are still young and without commitments, is the time for you to go for your dream.
The worst that can happen is that it doent work out - and you can go back to doing something more mundane.
But at least, in the wee hours, you will never kick yourself for not giving it a go.
Many jobs like pilot (or in my case, policeman) are very very different from the inside and, after a couple of years, you might decide its not for you and go back to your trade.
It happened to me. I never regretted giving it a go. Never regretted going back to my 'day-job' when it didnt work out.
One thing I will absolutely guarantee - your time doing something else will give you valuable insight and skills which will help you in whatever you do.

[abgd]

Is law a well paying profession these days? I hear things can be very hard still when you're starting out.

A few years ago I... didn't really consider flying as an option, but would have done so if I had the funds. Like Adam Frisch, I suspect that I might have ended up being bored. On the other hand, I work in a profession (Medicine) that doesn't give you much personal time. One of the things I really liked about the idea of piloting, was that it seems to be the only profession left where your hours are reasonably well controlled and where you might have the option of feeling fulfilled outside of your profession.

If you were to change your mind and come back to law later, would you be able to? Certainly from medicine it's pretty much a one-way move, partly because you lose skills quickly, and partly for bureaucratic reasons. For law, I don't know.

When I was working near London I was continually exhausted. Everyone was working 80 hours a week and being paid for 45, and it didn't seem to get better as your career progressed. Out in the provinces where life is less competitive, people seem to manage better. I know of a local GP who has a working fishing boat, and a number have smallholdings working reduced hours.

Something I have considered in the future, when I have more time, is instructing - I enjoy teaching in a medical setting, and suspect that I would enjoy instructing more than most other forms of paid flying anyway. I've met people with other demanding careers who seem to fit it in part-time. Personally, of your options, I'd think about going a modular route. You're not burning your bridges that way and you're less likely to get yourself into a financially tricky situation.

[Contacttower]

I have to say you have made a good choice by coming to the Private Flying section, you are much more likely to get a balanced and reasoned set of opinions here...

It is true that being a regular line pilot would not be particularly intellectually challenging for obvious reasons and short of pulling off some amazing emergency landing the work of pilots goes unnoticed most of the time unless you screw up big time. That said in many airlines time to command for example can depend on aptitude and potential so there is in the possibility of demonstrating personal merit.

However if you are a more intellectual type then the prospect later on of getting into management and training might appeal and that would bring some intellect into the role. At the higher echelons of aviation there is intellect involved in designing procedures, safety philosophy, better understanding of the human/machine interface and a lot of other issues. That would be a long way off though and I have no idea whether you would be interested in that sort of thing.

Finally as far as simply becoming a pilot as quickly and efficiently as possible if you want to end up with a UK short haul airline you can do no worse than CTC Wings. Many will disagree with that but in my view if you can finance it (normally with a BBVA loan) it is a proven route to the RHS that many have taken.

[ianwild]

I've flown in Florida. It didn't seem that much cheaper, although I was certainly able to rent nicer aircraft for the same money.

It's pretty obvious speaking to some professional pilots that it's possible to love flying commercially and not get bored, but it seems there's a lot of competition for the jobs and many people prepared to work for little money after funding their own training. That's what you're competing against and unless there is a sudden surge in demand for pilots I don't see it changing.

My chosen route is to keep my options open while working on a career in IT. Having come to it late I've learnt to fly via a PPL, IMC etc. With some careful budgeting and liberal use of a Visa card while the weather was good and the opportunity was there I've learnt a lot and nearly logged enough hours to begin thinking about the CPL as a real possibility. I just want to keep learning and will see what happens. So long as I enjoy the journey then finding something income generating that ticks my boxes at the end would be a bonus.

My biggest fear about relying on flying for a living is the need for a class 1 medical, which as far as I can tell means any crappy little life event or illness can remove your options for good. I know a couple of somewhat decrepit legal bods who practice very successfully in their senior years...

But hey, don't let anyone here put you off - if you want it enough it's a much more achievable goal than it looks at the start of a PPL course.

Ian

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Thanks for your views Shaggy Sheep Driver.

What is changing so much in the industry to make it different to the previous generations?

Back in the day, airline flying was for the wealthy. Air crew were well paid with a strong union, and the high cost of pilot wages wasn't too much of an issue in the light of high fares and high overheads generally.

Today, it's a completely different industry. The old order was challenged by the likes of Freddie Laker, and conquered by Virgin, then the low costs. They saw that the secret was 'cost reduction' and low fares.

Reduce the fares, and you increase your market share. With the privatisation of state airlines, and the failure of those who could not change (Pan Am, TWA, and countless more) the 'new, meaner' industry emerged.

An obvious casualty was the high pay and superb conditions enjoyed by air crew. With countless individuals willing to take on £100k debts to train themselves, paying for type ratings, and willing to work for burger bar wages, why should airlines pay £100k pa and a super pension, easy rotas, and 5 star hotel layovers for aircrew?

It's not the industry it was 20 years ago. And actually, it almost certainly shouldn't be. Market forces now apply in the flight deck as they do almost everywhere else, which is no bad thing for the rest of us.

As long as the regulators ensure safety standards are maintained. Despite a few high profile accidents (AF447, Colgan dash 8), airline flying seems no less safe for these changes. And AF are probaly one airline that hasn't yet felt the full impact of market forces on the flight deck despite featuring in one of the most bizarre accidents of all time (447 - and AF Concorde at Paris did them no favours, either)!

[gasax]

I think Shaggy has pretty well encapsulated why a career in aviation may not be what it once was.

I have a couple of firends of a 'certain age' who work for the LOCOs, their 'disadvantage' is that they have worked for whay they call 'proper airlines' and the changes in their circumstances have been painful.

My approach to flying has been to treat it as a leisure pastime, even when I had the opportunity to treat it as a professsion over 20 years ago I was advised that it would probably kill the pleasure I still get from it. Much wiser words than I ever appreciated, when I listen to my mates complaining about manager who communicate with them by text and email and where rotas are 'very fluid'.

But you have to want to get up in the morning and go to work. So if you hate what you are doing it can be very difficult. However you are now in a place where there are some rewards for working. Do you want to go and compete with people who will literally 'fly for food' being supported by either large loans or indulgent parents? The archtypical comment of 'how do you make a small fortune in aviation? - Start with a large one!' has always held true. I know a guy who has spent most of his life instructing and loved it - but as he freely admits it has left him with little in the way of money and the change in the rules for ATOs has caught him just as he was retiring so he is now making a living doing odd jobs as he cannot set up for himself.....

So my advice is take option 3 and see if you can find any redeeming features of your current career.

[Pace]

I like you went into a family business (not as a lawyer) where it was an expectation that you could do what you wanted as long as it was the family business ; )
As with anything in life if you do not have a passion for what you do you will never be any good at it /
You will end up as an ok lawyer who cannot wait to get away at the end of the day and do things which do interest you !
I have a friend who chucked in a well paid law job in the city to fly for crumbs in corporate aviation!
At your age and the law qualification already under your belt you have time to take 5 years out chasing your aviation dream and see where it takes you ?
Who knows you may go back to law with a fresh view?
As others have said the other option is to be an ok lawyer nothing great but making enough to fly your own aircraft

Pace

[Hyph]

Something that nobody else has mentioned, but what is it that you like about flying?


Just being up in the air on a nice day?
Going to far off places?
Spending time down-route with fit and healthy members of the opposite sex?
Making something complex bend to your will? (no I don't mean the member of the opposite sex above)
Managing a team?
Or any of a whole host of other aspects?

Ask yourself what is it exactly that excites you?

Now... if can answer that, decide which type of flying would give you that. Maybe you can do that in private flying, or maybe a career in aviation is the only way to achieve it.

Don't set off down the road unless you know the intended destination.

[Dave Gittins]

SSD has it right.

The great difference between the old days; when legacy BA long haul captains earned well over £100 K and Colgan, where the right hand seater at Buffalo was apparently criss crossing the US in her own time and maybe sleeping in crew rooms to earn (according to one report LESS than in McDs) peanuts is one of the things that changed the appeal for ever.

The other (for me) is the hours, the early starts, the late finishes, the lost weekends, Christmases and Bank Holidays I've seen my airline friends suffer (and curse).

I prefer a well paid job and to fly for fun whenever I want.

[Pace]

I fly corporate jets. The smaller ones and you will never make a fortune!Yes you will have long days mostly spent in cars. Trains and positioning back in planes!
Hanging around, weekends lost. Hotel rooms !
Airline pilots have it Easy, no having to flight plan fill in Gendex, sort Pax hotels taxis arrange maintenance and all the other 100 things the corporate pilot does!
They just turn up and fly!
I was on a recurrent in the USA and a 35 year old businessman was doing his in a Citation jet he flew single pilot!
He had businesses in different states in the USA and a weekend villa in the Bahamas.
Flew a Cirrus 22 for two years and then bought a five year old CJ1!
He had it right but how many can afford that lifestyle unless a quarter share in a PA28 lights your fire ; )
This poster does not like being a lawyer like his father and grandfather!
I identify with that!
He will never be a successful lawyer unless he loves his work so either get to live the work or do something else!
It's a short life and I don't regret a thing in my flying even if it can be **** or badly paid

Pace

[xrayalpha]

It is a changing world, so let's look at some changing things.

First: anyone, even a doctor, now has to spend 100k of family money to "follow the dream". Just look at university fees, accommodation, living expenses etc for a five year degree! Even at three years for an ordinary degree plus a year in teacher training means a lot of debt or help.

So paying for airline training is now just like acquiring skills for any other occupation.

Might be difficult financially for the OP if there are still student loans etc outstanding from legal training.

Eric Newby (famous wartime escaper) wrote a preface to a collection of escape stories which always had a great impression on me.

He pointed out, some people work as faceless bureaucrats in a dull government office from 9am Monday to 5pm Friday so they have the money to done their hiking boots and "escape" for the weekends and holidays.

Other people go and live on a isolated island with no healthcare and poor diet just to escape from the 9-5!

And, of course, Lawrence of Arabia famously "escaped" to the RAF! He was said to have pointed out that the life of a junior serviceman was relaxing because you ate when you were told to eat and slept when you were told to sleep, and if you overslept and missed morning parade it wasn't your fault.... it was the corporal's for not waking you up!

So, only you can tell what will tick your boxes. What you will put up with to achieve what you want to achieve.

In aviation, as in life, every coin has two sides. Big complex aircraft long-haul, but lots of time away from family. Little aircraft flying around the Shetlands, but home every night for dinner. Big aircraft, bigger money, little aircraft, littler money!

And so on.

It is a big decision, and may take up a lot of resources that could otherwise have been spent on other things that might improve your life. ie nicer house, stuff for kids etc.

So you are right to ask lots of questions.

Good luck!