Is there a better aircraft than the 109AII for the price ?

[nigelh]

I spent over 20 years flying but never felt inclined to have an A 109 . I was under the impression they were fast but expensive and unreliable . Since then the price of a good , mid hour example has come down to sub $750,000 ( sub £500,000 ). Having bought one a couple of years ago I cannot understand why more companies / people do not use them !!! Single pilot IFR Twin Engine 145 knot cruise ( easily ), 2hr 40 min to dry and so many cheap spares around . It has worked out at around 50% of the cost of running my AS350
and hasn't missed a beat in the last 400 Hrs :D
So for that sort of money what can compare ...ie 6 pax , speed and endurance , ifr and price ????? It is the same money as a mid 80,s MD500 ( great machine but no comparison on pax, speed ,comfort etc ) and a mid 90 JetRanger .....

[Anthony Supplebottom]

Agree with some of your points but 6 pax is not realistic (at least not with any comfortable margins). But, if full pax isn't the primary concern then for a reliable light twin I would agree that on the surface, the Mk II appears to be a good value aircraft - not sure what kind of costs you're looking at for major overhauls mind you.

A strong plus, despite the lack of power compared to newer models, are the Allison donks. They (generally) just keep going and are not guzzlers.

Try giving this a read: http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/435896-agusta-109a-mkii.html

[B1-3]

Interesting post, the very short answer is yes....

Things to look for if we haven’t turned you away from this Italianmama are Main Blade life’s, the boys and girls in Italy make the ‘old’ metal ones every blue moon so when you want a new set you will pay top dollar and that’s if they make it to full life as you still have an AD for blade cracks. Even a second hand set will set you back above pro rata prices.

The airframe, by default, is old, corroded and cracked cos the little bugger shakes like a fat girl on a washing machine. Your head pots only stop leaking when they have no oil in. The Allison C20B is old and puffed out with the AII+ being slightly better but not much. If you go for a C well there is no hope for you. The C was the test bed for the 109E M/R Blades and troublesome tail, need I say anymore????

Look at what toys have been added as that’s your fuel being drained away, toys mean weight and weight is an issue.

A109 Engineers all know each other and I can’t think of anyone in your area so be prepared to travel for experienced engineers, any Tom, Dickor H can tinker with this a/c but to keep it in the air when you pull pitch requires a chap/s on the ground who will nurse the old girl.:}

The two big checks are 2400hr (leave your wallet at the door) and the 3600Hr. Parts are cheap but when they are gone then they are gone ask any A109A operator/owner. :{

Other wise she's a real gem:ok:

[John Eacott]

Having bought one a couple of years ago

so many cheap spares around . It has worked out at around 50% of the cost of running my AS350 and hasn't missed a beat in the last 400 Hr

I suspect that nigelh may have a fair idea of what is needed to run an AII, don't you think?

I ran one for many years in Melbourne but it was expensive and the only 145kias that I saw was empty going downhill ;) Lots of stories to tell, but as a cheap option to an AS350 I'm not sure that would hold up in Oz.

[John R81]

I was tempted, but having researched the maintenance requirements / cost I was put-off.

My research indicates that the "bargain" twin is the AS355

Just as well that I am happy with singles, then.:O

[The Night Owl]

500k, you could get a brand spanking new R66 for that money :}

[cockney steve]

500k, you could get a brand spanking new R66 for that money
13th Jul 2013 12:44

But would you have the requisite £3 1/2 K left over for a funeral? :p

[John R81]

Gosh! Didn't realise the R66 was a twin. :}

[Ascend Charlie]

Yeah, full fuel and pilot plus 1 you get those endurance times.

Put 6 pax in the back and you are down to 45 mins.

And in Oz, that severely limits where you can go. Might be different where you are.

[nigelh]

Some good replies !!
Ref spares .....I have a complete bitser machine with good blades , XMSN etc etc bought for next to nothing ....so no big parts bills coming .
145 knots is actually when at max weight ....150 Knot when just me and one other .
Corrosion ....well no sign of any so far but it is going in for full back to metal respray next month so I will let you know !!
I can guarantee that if you know what you are doing it will be a lot cheaper than a 355 and a hell of a lot faster ...trust me !!!
I would buy one for £400 k odd and buy one for spares for £100k odd .....sell 50 hours to people for £50k and fly for nothing !!!!!!
Still no takers for a better machine . 355 I don't think so but maybe the very next best thing .

[timprice]

The old one's are the best keep away from anything that will require major expense, such main rotor gearbox, main blades or engine work (but not always expensive if you have C20's).
Nice stable single pilot IFR platform.
Also keep inside not good if damp, Italian electrics, work very well if looked after.:D

[Anthony Supplebottom]

Still no takers for a better machine?

Okay, I'll have a go!

1 x Bell 222 @ £200k + 1 spares ship @ £100k but with the best part of the deal being that you get that classic Bell blade slap for free! :E

[nigelh]

Ok ...... But how many are out there cheap and grounded but otherwise good comp times ? There are loads of 109,s grounded now due to the 250 containment rings ... They are trickling onto the market for pennies providing a massive inventory of cheap parts for the ones remaining. .
Also the 109 is quicker and uses far far less fuel .
Lastly I believe there are places where the 222 is either banned or unwelcome due to noise .

Good try :D

Ps. I think training and check rides will get more difficult as well due to a lack of rated pilots ..?

[Anthony Supplebottom]

Ah well, I said I'd have a go!

Nigel, you seem totally convinced with the Mk II - and I'm sure Castle Air wouldn't disagree with you given their experience with the type.

Seeing as you're so certain of this heli's continuing viability, why not buy 4 or 5 airframes, keep a couple for spares and do up 2 or 3 for sale. Given your belief in them I am sure you would be able to shift them! :ok:

[nigelh]

What a jolly good idea .... I hadn't thought of that. !!!!!!
Castle Air do a very good job with their 109,s ...... I was just genuinely interested how and why someone with £4 -500k to spend would buy anything else . It seems the next best thing would be a big jump in purchase price and operating cost of a Power ? And for the extra £1m you get very very little extra performance . I think the Mk 11 could well appreciate in value over the next 2-5 years ....just as the MD500 D has done .
So ... Who wants to buy one ???!!!!!

[nellycopter]

When you looking at getting airborne with it Nigel

[nomorehelosforme]

With the greatest of respect I don't know anything that flys, floats or f**ks that appreciates, any clarication on this would be marvellous!

Regards

[nigelh]

Well I am afraid I would have to disagree !!! I have owned 8 helicopters over the last 25yrs and I have only lost money on 1 , my AS350BA which I actually sold for £75k more than I paid ... But sadly had to spend £150k on Engine FOD damage first !! Recently I made a profit on my Enstrom 480B . A profit on a MD 500C. ( if I had bought the D I would have made twice the profit ) .
I bought my first 109 about 4 years ago when they were £500. - 600k for a mid 1980,s with good times . I have now bought another really nice machine and flown it for around 500 hours over the last couple of years . It is in paint at present and will look beautiful when it comes out and I am sure will be worth around £450 - 470k .....if I get an offer I may take it but I firmly believe they will go up by 20% over the next 3-5 years . Just look at the cost of the next step up to a Power :eek:.........and its now cheaper than many 500,s of the same age and TT .....:ok:

[nomorehelosforme]

I can only assume you are a dealer? Especially after you reference to Castle Air? If you are indeed a dealer why even start this thread?

[500guy]

Keep in mind.
A huge reason the prices of 500s have gone up is their use in powerline applications which have exploded in the past 5 years and the discontinuation of the 206.

[nomorehelosforme]

I respect that totally but was Nigella talking about 109's

[nigelh]

No , not a dealer . Just someone who wants to fly great helicopters without spending a fortune !! Which I have managed to do by buying the right type for the right price and selling when there is a profit ..... Maybe that makes me a dealer ??!! I don't think power line is the reason for the 500 price rise as most go abroad to do other things.... The price of a new one may explain more .

[Anthony Supplebottom]

nomorehelos - It was me who mentioned Castle Air at first and also that Nigel should push the Mk II in terms of sales, given that he is so enamoured with it.

Try not to be too judgmental. It helps.

[Ian Corrigible]

The appeal of a 109 is obvious, but since the question is asked -- 'Is there a better aircraft than the 109AII for the price?' -- it's worth noting that S-76A++ prices are also now at $800K and below.

So...Swallow or Spirit?

I/C

[nomorehelosforme]

Point taken

[nigelh]

I hadn't thought of the old 76 !! I think you are getting into something that's just too big for private use and landing in your garden ..... Also can you pick up good spares machines for around £100k ? This is the key question ..... Can I get cheap spares if something goes wrong ? Also don't really know about the engines , but the 250 in the 109 is as cheap as they get !!
We still don't have a contender to beat the good old 109 :ok:

[Hughes500]

Nigel

have you asked TC for his opinion ? I am sure he will give you some guidance:hmm:

[nigelh]

Thanks for that gem ....!!
I forgot to point out that you only want one with an aux tank. ( 2 hrs to dry without one ) and they are like hens teeth to find to retrofit . Let me know if you know of one !!

[John Eacott]

It seems the next best thing would be a big jump in purchase price and operating cost of a Power ? And for the extra £1m you get very very little extra performance .

Having done a bit of time in both, I'd query the assertion that there is little extra performance in the Power. The payload/range in the AII is very iffy with the distances we need in Australia, I'd have to have three legs Melbourne - Gold Coast in an AII flying solo and at 8-9,000ft to reduce fuel burn and only 130kts at 90% Tq. What Tq do you use, nigel? And OEI performance is not exactly inspiring.....

The Power also suffers range/payload but at least it can take a couple of pax with full fuel, and achieve closer to 145kts cruise at mid weights and 80% Tq. For those not familiar with the 109, the earlier marks have a max continuous Tq of 123%, so 90% indicated is actually ~75% of max continuous. From the 109C on the gauge was adjusted to give max continuous as 100%, far more sensible!

Also the Power has better seats and 'room' for the driver, the AII is a shocker suitable only for a legless dwarf or an Italian Moto2 rider ;) Plus the Power has an actual OEI capability and a proper boot that will take a couple of sets of skis!

[claudia]

John, No doubt the points you make are true but as Nigel said i would
prefer the mark2 in my hangar and £1,000000 cash in the bank! Plus a fraction of the insurance costs and no horrendously costly glass screens to worry about! Similar reasons as to why i run a 355f1 and not a 355n.

[Anthony Supplebottom]

claudia - similar correlation though in that the F1's performance is no match for the N in much the same way as the MkII cannot compete with the E.

I understand however that the older models still perform well and that they are significantly more economical - for the time being.

[helihub]

nigelh - how would a 109 Mk.II compare with a Bell 430? Do you already have one of these?

[timprice]

Don't like 430 too complicated, 222 better she's a pilots machine.:ok:

[md 600 driver]

GAZELLE 342/341

[jackh]

gotta love the 109's! Weren't Tiger Helicopters operating a Mk II for a while? (G-TGRA)