Working as ATC post 2009

[9SL9]

Hi All,

I'm looking at a career change and have always been fascinated by ATC.

My current job sees me working with healthcare professionals (very demanding people) - delivering multi-million dollar projects. The healthcare environment, as some may know, is hardly a stress free environment. Although admittedly, I don't know how this compares stress-wise to the aviation industry.

I've been doing a lot of research and have come across a great deal of negativity toward Air Services Australia. I have noted, however that the vast majority of that was prior to the 2009 agreement (http://www.airservicesaustralia.com/wp-content/uploads/hr-ca-0005_2012_15.pdf).

I'd be interested to hear from ATC's (or those with insider knowledge) if they would recommend a career as an ATC now that new working conditions have been agreed. I'm specifically interested in the reality of working hours (weekends with family etc) and the working environment. I'm also interested to know if things get easier/harder as one progresses through the ranks from in-training and beyond.

Thanks in advance.

[fower]

I joined AsA about 6 years ago, during the depths of what one might term the 'morale' crisis. The general mood at the time among staff was rather depressing. The primary causes were diabolically low staffing levels in most areas, combined with upper level management denial of the problem, as well as public smear campaigns by our past CEO against ATCs leading up to the 2009 agreement.

These days morale & staffing levels really depend on where you are eventually posted, however IMHO the overall working environment is significantly better than it was when I joined, and I would actually say that (for me at least) AsA is a good employer. There are areas where it's less enjoyable (as with any workplace, it can depend greatly on your immediate manager and colleagues), however overall things are pretty good. Staffing levels are still an issue, although to their credit, AsA have put significant resources into training a lot more ab-initios, and we're seeing some improvement. Some groups have enough staff, some not quite, and some are still struggling. Of course this can have a negative effect on leave availability, and the occasional shift where the group runs understaffed.

I never hesitate to recommend ATC as a career. It's a fantastic job. Moving big jets around the sky is pretty cool :} As far as stress goes, I would describe it as occasionally 'high pressure', but the great thing is that you don't take any work/stress home. Most ATCs love moving traffic, and actually get a thrill out of the busy/high pressure periods.

Regarding working hours, you will be at the mercy of your assigned group/tower's roster. They all vary (quite significantly sometimes) depending on the requirements of the group. Some have a lot of night shifts, some a lot of very early mornings, some are mostly mon-fri. There's very little flexibility to change shifts once the roster is out (due to a controversial and rather inflexible new 'fatigue management system'), which sometimes forces staff to choose between missing their kid's school concert or calling in sick. There's no bidding/seniority for rosters or days off like with the airlines.

The training is tough. It's not an easy job to learn for most, and the first 3-6 months after achieving a rating are also quite challenging. However, with experience the job does become easier and after consolidating and building your own confidence in your ability it really does become enjoyable! Senior controllers are generally very good at providing support and keeping an eye on newbies.

I hope I've answered your questions! Feel free to PM me if you've got any more!

[9SL9]

Thanks for your very thorough response.

I bring a lot of stress home with me, which I'd like to avoid.

One last question, is there an age limit? I'm 36 and have heard that there is an age ceiling of 30, beyond which one cannot apply. Is this true?

[Elfatness]

Brilliant post and brilliant answer. Thank you.

[Jabawocky]

And with some recent senior management appointments the chances are far better than ever for positive change. :ok:

[Nautilus Blue]

Re the age limit, best check with ASA direct, but I'm pretty sure some in this thread http://www.pprune.org/atc-issues/311440-airservices-australia-psychometric-testing-132.html were over 40 and accepted. (Are age limits legal anymore?)

As for staffing levels, some groups are now complaining about not getting overtime.

Overall though, I'd pretty much agree with what flower said (and I like a good ASA bash/whinge more than most). I think most of the things that are/were/perceived/actually wrong with ASA aren't unique, and just the way a lot of workplaces are these days (and you've probably already experienced), but the job itself is good.

The only thing I would add is it is shift work, so you will end up working more Christmas days, new years, birthdays, family functions etc than not.

[Hempy]

there is no age limit, but anecdotally the pass rate of ab-initio trainees over the age of 40 is approximately 0%..

[9SL9]

I fail to understand how being over 40 translates to failing a to 100% failure rate.

[Hempy]

I fail to understand how being over 40 translates to failing a to 100% failure rate.

Is that a question or a statement? I didn't say why they don't get through, although I have my own opinions, I just said they don't.

Oh, and I didn't say 100% fail, I said 0% pass..withdrawal is an option that has been exercised more than once. As an aside, you may be interested to know that the pass rate for all ab-initio trainees hovers around 60-65%..

[9SL9]

An iPhone auto corrected question, in fact.

So, only 65% of those who attempt to pass the training pass and of those 'approximately' 100% of them will be between the age of 18-39!

That's very specific. I'm curious where this information comes from as it will assist a great many of us who are moving toward this age group decide if we want to waste our time or not.

[le Pingouin]

I'll throw in some generalities to explain the age situation:

1. The course is very full on with limited leeway for catching up. When was the last time you studied full time and intensely for an extended period?

2. As you get older it becomes harder to learn entirely new things and change the way you think. On the course you aren't just learning facts and rules but also a way of thinking.

3. Having other responsibilities such as family can be a distraction.

Hempy isn't meaning 40 is some magical cut off but the older you are the lower your chances of passing are. Multiply that by the factor of relatively few over 40s starting training and you end up with numerical scarcity. Again all very anecdotal.

Those are the "stats" such as they are. In the end it all comes down to you as an individual. All it says that you at 36 will likely find it harder than you at 26.

[Hempy]

I'm curious where this information comes from as it will assist a great many of us who are moving toward this age group decide if we want to waste our time or not.

The information comes from me..sadly I've occasionally had cause to sign things in regards to some of said trainees after failing to be able to train them..

What Pengoin says is all true. Added to his thoughts I'll also say that your mind needs to be sharp to pick it up in the time required, and you need serious motivation. The life commitments most people have already at that age seem to dull both of those things because you really need to live and breathe it for 16 full months.

All that isn't to say age should deter anyone from applying, older trainees are certainly welcome. It was just to help you with informed decision making in your application process.

[9SL9]

Thank you for the candid responses - it has helped.

For me, I'm less concerned with studying for 16 months (it says 14 for en route in the ASA brochure) and more concerned with the impacts the job will have on my family. I currently have a 9 - 5 job, which means I get weekends. I realise the nature of ATC is quite different. What I would like to know is just how bad it is in reality from a rostering point of view. I'm a morning person, so I wouldn't have issues with starting at 5 or 6am.

Is anybody able to share a typical roster one might expect as an atc?

[Nautilus Blue]

I can only speak for Melbourne Centre, but there isn't really a typical roster unfortunately. They vary not only from group to group, but also within the group, as well as at different times of the year for some. Count on working more weekends than not though. For example a simple 4 on 2 off roster will give you one complete weekend (Sat and Sun) off and 2 half weekends (Sat or Sun) in 7 weeks.

Particular runs or patterns of shifts can be particularly family unfriendly (or so I hear :sad:). An evening shift for example may have you waking up after the kids have gone to school, and getting home after they have gone to bed, which may wear a bit thin after 5 in a row. Or you may be getting home after a night shift at 7am on a Saturday and trying to sleep! On the other hand, most shifts are morning, afternoon or night, so even if you a working the weekend you might not loose it all.

Another unpublicised "feature" is rec leave (holidays). Only a certain number of people in each group can be on leave at once, so to facilitate this all leave must be booked 14 months in advance. Booking time of for events that are arranged less than 14 months in advance can involve some guesswork and luck.

I'm not trying to put you off (personally I prefer shift work and couldn't cope with 9-5) but it is a 24/365 job, and you are paid to work shifts.

Someone has probably already suggested this, but ring up and arrange to visit the centre. Not only will you get a bit of an appreciation for the job, but you can see some rosters and get a feel on the working environment and general morale of the place (unless you get stuck with the group grump, most have at least one :))

[le Pingouin]

Rostering is based around traffic patterns and the ratings you have, noting not all locations are 24 hour, so you can't really say any roster is typical. You will be working most weekends (or parts thereof), and a range of morning, afternoon, evening and night (doggo) shifts. You might avoid doggos for a while due to lack of ratings or if you end up at a non 24 hour tower.

Shifts are usually 7 to 8 hours long. Mornings start between 0500 and 0700, afternoons between 1200 and 1300, evenings between 1400 and 1600, and doggos 2200 to 2300.

We work between 4 and 6 shifts in a row with 2 or 3 days off between (plus or minus). Roster lines where I work include these and variations:

MMAADDOOO
MMMMOO
AAAAAOO
MMAAOO

There is limited scope for swapping shifts and as fower said you're largely stuck with what's rostered.

So yes, an understanding and flexible family is necessary to allow you to sleep and know you'll miss important events. On the plus side you generally aren't battling the 9-5 commute, don't have to fit things into your lunch hour and what happens at work stays there unless it's been a really bad shift. The biggest downside is it's very hard to commit to regular things that occur on a particular day of the week or month.

[le Pingouin]

I'm with you NB - couldn't cope with the 9-5 grind.

I have a late start tomorrow and as it's going to be warm and sunny I'll be having lunch with la Pingouin, taking Pingouin junior to the park and doing the school pick up. A very relaxed and pleasant start to the day. It doesn't entirely make up for the crap side but is sweet when you can.

[89 steps to heaven]

9Sl9

As Hempy and others have said, for the right person, it is just the best job going. I work in a regional control Tower and would not swap it.

That being said, I also have had the sad task of twice having to terminate a persons training. In both cases, they were very intelligent, capable people, but ultimately not ATC's. In both cases, they had been training for between 1 - 2 years before the training was terminated.

The other thing to consider is that the recruitment / training pay is fairly low, which can be a deal breaker for people with life experience considering joining ATC.

As for the company and lifestyle, I think we are making some good improvements on where we were, but with better to come. I have been doing this for more than 30 years and I realise that I have missed some family moments, but have had the opportunity for others.

I would certainly suggest that you contact an ATC facility near you and see if you can arrange a visit.

Best of luck whatever your decision.

[shinning]

There's been some very good info put forward here and I mostly agree with it. Personally, I love shiftwork compared to M-F/9-5. It generally gives me a half/full day to do things when most people are at work. Obviously, there can be some issues with weekends off and family events etc, but to give a slightly different perspective, I have never had too many problems swapping shifts with my workmates. This, coupled with my group being significantly understaffed, ie plenty of blank shifts rostered that can be swapped into, means I can usually get to my kid's athletics carnival, or footy game, or whatever. As someone mentioned though, the new fatigue rules have made this a bit harder in some cases.

Regarding age, I guess this has to be weighed up case by case. Notwithstanding that some people may find it harder to learn something that is completely foreign to them as they get older, people also generally have more 'stuff' going on in their lives in their 40's than when they were 20, and that can occupy their attention. Don't let it put you off though. I'm all for people giving it a go if they think they'd like it.

For me, ATC is the best job going around and I'm pretty sure that the majority of people I've worked with over the years would agree. It might not be for everyone, and it does have it's negatives (like anywhere), but overall it's great.

[9SL9]

Great feedback everyone. My overall summary of your valuable input is as follows:

ATC training is DIFFICULT, no time off (from another forum post), with a 35% chance you will not make it through


Next to no flexibility in work hours -depending more on local team and location than on a defined, structured workplace


You will miss out on a great deal of family time


You will be required to do additional hours


Little spontaneity - leave typically required to be approved 14 months (this one is hard to believe, but true) in advance to be guaranteed


Air Services Aus. own you for 5 years, with little choice in posted location


Oh, and lastly, it's a fantastic job.


This has been an interesting post. From an outsiders perspective there is a great deal of 'undesirable' elements to being an ATC, and no way to quantify the positives of the job first hand (i.e. flaming the passion). I have attempted to visit the Brisbane based facilities only to be told that such visits are a security risk and not allowed. This means that for a 'mature aged' potential recruit I would need to 'trust' that the job is for me, even in the face of all the negatives.

I'm not surprised the industry is suffering from a shortage of qualified professionals and wish ASA the best of luck in balancing the scales and attracting new recruits. Perhaps this is a young persons game after all....

Thanks again for your valuable input and time.

[le Pingouin]

For better or worse it's a secure environment so you don't get in without a good reason - curiosity doesn't cut it. Applying and getting past the first phase is one way of getting a look-in - all it costs is the time taken. You can always decline to go further with the application.

There are a great deal of undesirable elements to most jobs when you get down to listing them. With a bit of flexibility you can gain quite a bit back. Swap a few shifts and get a week off? Of course it means fewer days off later. Swings and round-abouts.

In theory you have to do a reasonable amount of overtime and for many the extra money comes in handy. There's always the "I'm not fit for duty" card - lack of sleep or a glass of red in the last 8 hours is sufficient for instance.

With respect to rec leave you have to remember you can't take leave unless there's someone to replace you. Aircraft aren't a stack of papers that can be put on hold for a week or two, or passed out between your colleagues while you're away - only a certain number can be on leave at any one time.

My personal take is that passion is overrated. Mainly you need to be lucky enough to have the required attributes and determination to do as well as you can. Without those you have no chance.

With respect to the 35% failure rate - that's the historical average. What it doesn't mean is it's the same for every course - you're competing against a standard, not each other. It's never the top N% pass & the rest fail - 100% pass or 100% failure is entirely possible. You also need to note that passing the course doesn't guarantee attaining a rating.

One thing I like about ATC is the wide variety of backgrounds of the people I work with - ex-Army, Navy and Air Force, car mechanics, RPT pilots, IT professionals, failed uni students, multiple degree holders and everything else in between.

I do think learning ATC is largely a young'uns game - speed and flexibility. That said it's also down to you as an individual.

[9SL9]

Good point... :)

[greg777]

im 42, and have some concerns re the age of being a trainee. i have a family but very supportive though i am concerned about these percentages of fail rate.

wouldnt the testing process pick this up and determine a person is to slow or no good??????

[Jack Ranga]

Greg, this is in no way dis-respectful. The older you get, the worse the odds become. It's not discounting whatever you've achieved in your past life. I've known uni grads with masters fail, I've known ex-tradies with year 10 pass (:E)

While I'm not sure what the odds are for 42 year olds, there are ATC's on this bulletin board WHO ARE INSTRUCTORS IN THE COLLEGE. They've pretty much seen it all, listen to what they say :ok:

P.S. there is not an aptitude test anywhere in the world that is a good predictor. If there was ASA would pay lots of millions for it, a failed ATC trainee costs **** loads of money.

[le Pingouin]

Jack is right. Any selection process can only really pick out that you have certain abilities and aptitudes - the raw material for building a controller. Whether you can pull it all together or not is what's determined during the course and field training.

Yes, the older you are the harder it gets, but whether it's too hard comes down to you as an individual, and whether it all comes together enough in the given time. Hard work and study can only take you so far down that road.

[ferris]

Here's my 2 cents- take it for what you will.

My advice to anyone would be: Do not leave a career to attempt ATC. That is, any career that will suffer if you take 12 months off. If you have a 'job', and could get another 'job' (and this will take some introspection and self- knowledge), then by all means, have a go. Consider whether you actually like learning, challenges, change etc.

Additionally, if you are over 30, there is more to consider. Imho, the reasons older trainees struggle are twofold: 1. You simply don't learn as quickly as you once did, and 2. the pressure on you is much greater- you have family considerations, financial commitments (think....going into that sim exam near the end of training, you feel like it could go either way, what will the wife think when I have to tell her I've failed and we have to move again and I haven't got a job and my family and friends will all know and I have to go back to that **** job and how are we going to get thru the next month with no money and the kids will have to find a new school and...you get the idea. The 22year-old next to you is relaxed and thinking "if I flunk I will be able to go to that piss up next week". It's a simplification, but you get the drift.). It is very difficult to free your cognitive mind of those stresses.

As many have previously mentioned, passing the testing and having the desire are simply not enough. Strange, but that's the way it is. However, it's a really good job with a decent remuneration (well above average). You have to weigh up what is right for you. You say you have a supportive family; that should go quite a way to helping you make the decision.

[greg777]

what about previous experience in the aviation industry, would that help with the study and understanding???? i hold a commercial pilots licence and previously was a flight data officer for 10 years.

i know this wont readily contribute to the practical side but maybe less to learn???

[Jack Ranga]

If I hadn't had done flight data & blip driving before the course I wouldn't have checked out.

[le Pingouin]

The study & understanding are the easy bits - a CPL & flight data experience will give you a bit of a leg-up in that you already know the phonetic alphabet, what VOR, DME, ILS, SSR, "insert acronym here" are, you speak the lingo and you know how the "system" fits together. A lot of which will make you a better controller in the end because it means you know the other guys job.

Unfortunately it doesn't really help much with basic controlling. The bits you really need to know as a controller aren't technically challenging - memory work mainly.

Where your previous experience will likely help you is in pulling all the stuff you'll be taught together. Handling a dynamic environment with changing priorities and time pressures. All the while doing it within strict constraints.

And that's the hard bit that can't really be taught other than by experience building on existing aptitudes. The more experienced can provide tips, but it's up to you to build them into techniques you can use.

[ferris]

Yes and no. As Jack says, previous experience helped him out. Prior knowledge helps you early in the course, but later could be a burden.

What a pilot license/experience helps you with is understanding the stuff early in the course. Later, it doesn't help you at all. later in the course is all about applying what you have learned (a very complex rule set) to differing practical scenarios (the real world) in a time-critical environment.

The intangible thing is: "Can you do ATC"? Nothing prior helps you with that.

I'm sorry, I can't give you black and white here. You just have to suck it and see.

Whether you want to give up your life to 'suck it', is up to you.

[Hempy]

There's no other job quite like ATC. Therefore no other job can really prepare you for it.

[9SL9]

Probably discussed elsewhere, but..

Can anybody recommend some simulator products that might give me a realistic idea of using the tools? Of course, doing well in a simulator doesn't mean I'll be good on job - I get that.

I am currently using the following, and would be interested in hearing how close these are to reality from actual controllers.

http://www.appcontrolgame.com/voice-edition/
HD version for iPad (http://www.appcontrolgame.com/hd-version-for-ipad/)
LineUp With Math Simulator! (http://www.atcsim.nasa.gov/)

I haven't used this but it seems like it might be worth the purchase.
Welcome to the ATCsimulator®2 Website (http://www.atcsimulator.com/)

Not sure why my links have gone like that...

[Hempy]

9SL9, I haven't played any of those games, but unless you are going to work straight onto Approach (you wont..) that's all any of those sims are really. I'll use an example to explain.

70% of Aust airspace isn't under radar coverage, and those sectors need controllers too. In fact, todays trainees are likely to end up on a Procedural sector..You are separating aeroplanes using the navigation tolerances of their onboard equipment and the ground based navigation aids they are using. You are using distance standards that require timed distance reports from the pilot (if you can), you are determining definite passing, you are step climbing aeroplanes vertically based on pilot altitude reports, you are calculating whether 2 aeroplanes crossing each other at the same level will 'hit' or not based on their tolerances, and then deciding and assigning a new level for the right one if they don't fit (and the 'right' one better be right or you are about to paint yourself into a real bad corner in 20 minutes or so..), Jetstar and Tiger are one on top of the other and are both going to want to go down soon, you are voice coordinating every one of these aircraft with the next ATC. And you can't "see" any of them..

Added to that you are passing directed traffic information to aircraft octa and adverse weather reports mandatorily, you are dealing with weather diversions and bad comms, maybe a navaid failure or two, some Flying Doctors going direct..............and then the afternoon gaggle begins.

Someone simulates all that, and you'll get a good leg-up into ATC


p.s they are good for mental maths and practicing your left and rights!

[SgtBundy]

Looking at the EBA rates, what is the normal rate of progression from trainee up to the various levels?

[Hempy]

Trainee wage til you become an operational trainee (12-14 months, maybe considerably more..never less), then after you get a licence (3-6 months, maybe more...never less) you go up one level a year if your performance is considered satisfactory. 'Satisfactory' will include further endorsements (ability to work on more than one piece of airspace).

[y-b]

wow, 14 months notice for leave sounds unreasonable, even inhumane!

So, to those ATCs out there....

You get a call from a family member in the USA. They're coming to see you in three weeks time for a one week visit. This is their only window of opportunity to come see you....what do you do?

A - tell them you're rostered on and they need to give you 14 months notice next time
B - say nothing to your boss and call in sick for a week
C - play the sympathy card to your colleagues and hope they are willing to swap shifts
D - ??

[topdrop]

You can apply for leave up to 14 months in advance.
B - is a good recipe for getting sacked.
My experience in over 30 years is see your Manager about what they can do for you - you will normally get something, then see your fellow controllers about any possibility of shift swaps.

[le Pingouin]

A - there's no guarantee you'll get the leave you're requesting, even that far out because you're competing with your colleagues

B - good luck in finding a doctor to give you a medical certificate, then start looking for a new job

C - swapping shifts often isn't easy as there are rules

D - make do with what you can get

It's a resource problem in that a given number of controllers with a given number of ratings is required to run a group, and that's what's it's staffed for. For you to get time off a replacement needs to be supplied. Fine if its' all scheduled but a problem otherwise.

[Jack Ranga]

y-b, you can forget it mate.

A: on my group is booked solid apart from dribs & drabs of 3,4 or 4 days off. Who do you know takes hols for 4 days?

B: well...........

C: your colleagues are willing but the smartest guys in the room have completely ****** this up too.

D: any reasonable employer in these types of industries carries enough staff to cover un-planned absences, sickness, family reasons etc. airlines have reserve rosters. But NAVCANADA has confirmed all is honky dory :D I'm sure ASA will do the same in return ;)

I lost a family member years ago, my manager at the time was brilliant, I won't forget what he did for me at the time. I also had a few life challenges recently that was dealt with by my manager very well.

In the circumstances you talk of the organisation is a joke. I know it because I have a close family member that lives overseas. She doesn't have the luxury of knowing what she's doing 14 months ahead.

Your footy team makes the granny, could you predict it 14 months ahead & no one on your group wants leave? Forget it.

Do you know the date of sporting events you participate in 14 months ahead & nobody on your group wants leave? Forget it.

The person who decides whether you get leave doesn't have a problem getting the leave they want ;)

Is this worth the 30% 'loading' you get on the salary? The salary don't look so good when you minus this.