Instructions to PAX to ignore safety instructions

[kilfeder]

When events such as SFO occur, PPrune is full of people complaining that PAX ignore safety instructions. But they are TOLD to ignore safety briefings.

Here is a current Easyjet safety briefing.

IMG_0571 | Flickr - Photo Sharing! (http://www.flickr.com/photos/20813842@N00/9228511851/)

There is a drawing showing how to adopt the 'brace' position, but everyone on board, from the captain down, must know that it is IMPOSSIBLE to adopt anything like this position in any of the seats on the aircraft.

IMG_0574 | Flickr - Photo Sharing! (http://www.flickr.com/photos/20813842@N00/9228512905/)
The only assumption that any intelligent passenger can make is that these instructions are a pure meaningless formality, and that neither the captain, nor the flight crew, nor anyone in Easyjet management expect passengers to take any of this information seriously.

[PAXboy]

I agree that the BRACE position is unrealistic and has been for years. But no carrier is going to change it anytime soon!

Whenever I see pictures of pax emerging from a prang (or simply a precautionary evac) with their hand luggage I reply that no one should be surprised. In the SFO thread I said that of course the PAX were leaving with luggage as they are PAX - making it clear that I am PAX.

Also, that one can understand that that any CC seeing pax presenting at the top of the chute with their bags - will let them take it with them, otherwise they have to spend time wrestling it off them and stacking it (where?) causing more obstruction.

[TightSlot]

The only assumption that any intelligent passenger can make is that these instructions are a pure meaningless formality, and that neither the captain, nor the flight crew, nor anyone in Easyjet management expect passengers to take any of this information seriously.
Welcome to PPRuNe kilfeder and your first post has unmasked a high level conspiracy with profound implications for the travelling public

[One Outsider]

Anyone with just half a functioning eye will notice that in the depicted brace position the head and knee are aligned vertically. Which means that it is very much a position that is possible to adopt. In case it has escaped the notice of any of the resident sciolists, the back of any seat is designed to be pushed forward with minimal effort to accommodate your inflated noggin should the need arise.

[Shack37]

Anyone with just half a functioning eye will notice that in the depicted
brace position the head and knee are aligned vertically. Which means that it is very much a position that is possible to adopt. In case it has escaped the
notice of any of the resident sciolists, the back of any seat is designed to be
pushed forward with minimal effort to accommodate your inflated noggin should the need arise.


You are indeed correct, assuming you're lucky enough to be on an aircraft with the seat rows so well spaced, not many of those these days. Of course you will need to undo your seatbelt too.

[One Outsider]

That is just absolute nonsense. If you can sit in the seat you can also adopt the brace position.

[ExXB]

Squeezy's safety demonstration is poor, much worse than other airlines.

I recently flew GVA-BRS (on EZY not EZS). Almost as soon as the door closed they started the tape of the French language briefing. People were still in the aisle storing their baggage etc. Cabin crew not participating in briefing, not showing how to belt the life jacket, not showing the whistle and light, not doing anything related to the briefing. Frankly I'm not sure why they bothered.

A few minutes later, once the cabin was a little calmer, they did the briefing in English. This wasn't a tape but spoken very quickly in a very very thick accent from somewhere up north. I'm English mother tongue, but not British, and I couldn't understand what she was saying. French speakers, even with perfect English, would have not done as well as I.

How can you expect the passengers to know how to 'assume the position' in these circumstances?

Yes, I've seen the briefing thousands of times so I knew what was going on but don't they expect you to pay careful attention to every briefing?

The return flight a few days later had a similar French briefing (i.e. playing a tape while crew did other things) but the English was more understandable, but spoken much too quickly.

[Ancient Observer]

I used to be a very frequent Biz class customer. I had Gold with SQ and BA. In those days, I travelled biz and could understand the brace position.

Since I retired I am a holidays flying customer.

I cannot imagine how to adopt the brace position in any economy flight. It is not physically possible for me at over 6 feet tall.

Basically, I infer from that, that it is OK according to the safety gurus to just lie to customers about safety, just as they lie about Customer Service.

I did once ask the nice people at the Belgrano, but was not persistent enough to get a reply. (A quick plug for their medics - they are brilliant).

Even though I know that I am being told rubbish, wrt the brace position, I have resolved to carefully listen to each and every safety briefing. (I used to read the paper/a book, but a BMD steward told me off once in very fierce terms, so now I listen and watch on every flight).

[Agaricus bisporus]

Even though I know that I am being told rubbish, wrt the brace position,

Astonishing how non-technical outsiders always feel they know better than the industry's Professionals, isn't it?

There s NO PROBLEM whatsoever assuming the brace position as long as the people in the row ahead do the same thus allowing their seatbacks to fold forward.

Even so, cavilling about achieving the exact position seems a bit much, the point is to make yourself as small as possible and protect your head, jeez - do people really believe the brace position guarantees survival instead of being a "best option" or something?

Incredible!!:(

[DaveReidUK]

Even so, cavilling about achieving the exact position seems a bit much, the point is to make yourself as small as possible and protect your head, jeez - do people really believe the brace position guarantees survival instead of being a "best option" or something?In the event of emergency, bend over and kiss your :mad: goodbye, so to speak. :O

[Hipennine]

"Even so, cavilling about achieving the exact position seems a bit much, the point is to make yourself as small as possible and protect your head,"

It's also about stopping you breaking your neck, which is what happened to some unfortunates in otherwise survivable accidents who adopted the previously recommended brace position.

And perhaps more importantly, in a survivable accident, it is all about protecting your legs. Again, people have perished, because they either broke their shins on the seat in front, so becoming immobilised, or breaking/trapping legs under their own seats. If you look at any safety card, the legs are drawn in a very specific position

[Agaricus bisporus]

In the event of emergency, bend over and kiss your goodbye, so to speak.

Mmmm. OK, if you prefer to just roll over and die I suppose. But most people have better ideas...

[Ancient Observer]

Some one said.....

"Astonishing how non-technical outsiders always feel they know better than the industry's Professionals, isn't it?"

...............it is equally astonishing how whoever said that just knows everything that there is to know about everything.

I don't suppose they have a partner, but if they did, their partner would not have to bother with Google.

[Sunnyjohn]

In the United Kingdom, following the Kegworth air disaster in 1989, the UK Civil Aviation Authority contracted an engineering consultancy, Hawtal Whiting Structures, to perform computer based analytical investigation to optimise the brace for impact position for forward-facing passengers. This was supported by medical information from the University of Nottingham and testing at the Institute of Aviation Medicine. I think I'd go along with that, and:
In one accident, passengers were asleep on an aircraft that was about to collide with trees. One passenger, out of the sixteen, awoke and adopted the procedure, and he was the only survivor.[5] All passengers aboard Scandinavian Airlines Flight 751, which crashed, survived: an outcome which it has been suggested was largely thanks to the passengers' universal adoption of the brace position.[6]
During the "Miracle on the Hudson" flight on January 15, 2009, there were fewer than three minutes to land U.S. Airways Flight 1549 into the Hudson River[7] and the only words the passengers heard from the pilot were "Brace for Impact". Flight attendants chanted, "Brace! Brace! Heads down! Stay down!" [8] and all 155 people on board survived with no life-threatening injuries. also seems pretty convincing. Other more recent studies have backed this up. I read a report a few weeks ago but can't find it at the moment. If I do, I'll post it.

For me, if I'm ever asked to do so, I'll adopt the brace position. I always listen to the safety briefing and take note of exits and emergency lighting. I suppose I'm extra careful because my Dad was a London firefighter. Flashovers happen very quickly but the real killer is smoke. You should crawl on the floor in smoke conditions, which is why the emergency lighting is low down. People reaching upward for their cabin bags in the overhead lockers would be the first to be overcome by smoke fumes. I hope I'm never in the situation but if I am I know exactly what I'll do.

[ExXB]

Note last paragraph of this story: San Francisco crash survivors show unusual pattern of spinal injuries | CTV News (http://www.ctvnews.ca/health/san-francisco-crash-survivors-show-unusual-pattern-of-spinal-injuries-1.1359528)

Meanwhile, Okonkwo said assuming the "crash position" -- leaning forward with the head as far down as possible and arms over it -- can limit the spine jolting back and forth and offer some protection. It's not clear ifs any survivors of Saturday's crash had time to do so.

Pity they didn't have a Brace, Brace warning. (Yes I knows there was no time to give one - let's stay on thread)

[TightSlot]

Please don't get confused about this: It is an established fact that various PPRuNe contributors are a far more reliable source of knowledge and "The Truth" than the various airlines and regulatory authorities, whose primary aim is to kill as many passengers as possible.

:ugh:

[Sunnyjohn]

I love your irony, TS - it livens up Pprune no end!

[Ancient Observer]

The myth about the brace position being designed to kill people came from the fact that airlines used to lose less money per death than they lost per injury.
(Mythbusters covered it some years ago)

The same article that Sunny John used to describe the UK's brace position goes on to describe the UK's brace position in great detail.
I won't bore you with it, but if you want to read it, it is on wiki. . Suffice it to say that the UK's post-Kegworth brace position described in that article is NOTHING like the brace position pictured in the OP's attachments.
And, for those who want to display their obviously much greater expertise, I did research this quite carefully before I talked to the nice people at the Belgrano.

[Shack37]

Is safety too expensive?

San Francisco plane crash: rear-facing aircraft seats 'safer' - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/travelnews/10171503/San-Francisco-plane-crash-rear-facing-aircraft-seats-safer.html)

[PAXboy]

Rear facing seats? We haven't had that question in here so far this year, to the best o fmy knowledge. Those that want should search the PPRuNe archive for the discussions that all come back:



Yes, they are safe in certain types of impact
No, no carrier is ever going to install them
Yes, tests have been carried out over the years
No, routine pax don't like them
Yes, they have them in BA Biz and no one complains (in such a way that it has reached the newspapers)
etcetera!

[EEngr]

#20 has it right. Also, take a look at the Wikipedia article photo: Brace position - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brace_position)

The object isn't to bend double and put your head on your knees. It is to use up the empty space between your head and the seat back just in front of you. The object that your head will accelerate towards when the aircraft comes to a sudden stop.

[WHBM]

The issue about pax taking their hand luggage with them just shows how sensible and practical pax actually are. They know that if they follow the instructions and leave without their documentation in their hand luggage, their lives will be made a misery. The immigration officials at San Francisco, seeing a bedraggled set of Asian passengers approaching them with no passports, would have immediately sent for a bulk order of handcuffs. Attempts to board onward or return flights, or even just check in at the hotel, would be thwarted at every opportunity, there being of course no procedures anywhere to cater for pax whose documents (eg those in women's handbags) were "left behind in accordance with the safety card instructions". If they go to get their tickets reissued they will be stung for a fee - and then if their credit card was in the handbag they will just be told to get lost.

For those who reckon that the brace position is attainable, I can only presume they luxuriate in business class at all times (doubtless paid for by others). They should try it seated three-across in the rear cabin of a low-cost, 28" seat pitch aircraft. Give it a shot yourself sometime, have three of you walk back to the cheap seats after arrival, squeeze in side-by-side, and give it a shot at getting anywhere near what the card shows..

Rear-facing seats a la RAF were long ago shown to be worse for safety in a sudden deceleration, where much of the danger comes from cabin debris flying forward, which you are pretty much protected from by the seatback in forward-facing seats, but not at all in rearward-facing ones. Even the RAF eventually realised this and gave them up on their most recent transport aircraft.

[fa2fi]

@ExXB. More easy bashing from you! The foreign language PAs on "Squeezy" as you so maturely put it are in a way that you don't need shown at the time of the announcement. The instructions are detailed in a way that you don't need to follow a crew member.

The English is then played with the demo and reaffirms what has been said in the foreign language PA. It is a CAA requirement that it is done this way. I believe easyJet are going to be able to do the safety demo in local languages such as French or Italian domestic routes as part of the AOC.

As one of Europes largest airlines serving many countries and languages, how do you propose the manual demo is done if crew don't speak the language (same as for example BA crew). There are trilingual destinations too. Again what do you propose?

[ExXB]

My bash concerns;

- failure to secure cabin before 'foreign' language tape ran. People were still in the aisle and stowing/moving carry-on.
- the cabin crew were doing other things while briefing was being played.

What would I have done? Well how about exactly what EasyJet-Switzerland does. They do a full briefing in both French and English (on flights to/from Geneva - I'm not certain what they do in Basle but I suspect they do German/French/English). Swiss do it in three languages.

The crew don't need to be fluent in the 'other' language of the flight, but they could follow along demonstrating the safety items. If necessary English 'cues' could be included in the text to prompt the crew to what they should be doing. The demonstration is an important part of the briefing, and I doubt if the CAA would have a problem if a full demonstration was done in more than one language.

I am astounded that local language briefings are not done on domestic flights. What are they thinking?

[WHBM]

Moving on from hand baggage taken with you to the safety briefing.

Boarding an A320 recently (it happened to be BA but could have been any operator), and being seated directly over the wing, the briefing started together with pushback and engine start. In normal A320 manner, where one engine runs before the other, the familiar "dog barking" noise of the Power Transfer Unit started up, and being just underneath our seats it completely drowned out any of the PA announcement.

Should I really draw the attention of the crew and ask for it to be repeated once both engines are running and the racket has stopped ?

[fa2fi]

Regarding the foreign language PA on domestics easyJet want it. It's the CAA that was dragging its heels but I believe it's on it's way in now. It would be a change in the AOC and it's not as simple as just sending in a letter to the CAA.

In terms of ques. I honestly don't know how it would be done. There must be 12 or so languages on the PRAM.

It's a very anti eJ part of Prune is this, but as a comparison I flew bmi regional from my local airport to Brussels a few years back. The safety demo was manual in English only.

That's great about EZS, but what would you propose the crew do on an Arabic speaking flight? Or Maltese, Portuguese and now even Russian.

Without screens it's all about getting the balance right. If you need to do three full demos in three languages then that's 10 minutes gone. This will mean passengers having to be onboard the craft sooner and the cabin secure. If you're departing 27 at Bristol ten it's a very short taxi. Would you be happy sat there ready to go but having to wait ten minutes to listen to three demos.

[WHBM]

If you need to do three full demos in three languages then that's 10 minutes gone. This will mean passengers having to be onboard the craft sooner and the cabin secure. If you're departing 27 at Bristol ten it's a very short taxi. Would you be happy sat there ready to go but having to wait ten minutes to listen to three demos.
That's a nonsense.

I recall connecting from London to a Finnish domestic Saab 340 at Helsinki, 34 seats, about 12 pax on board. Usually they had one cabin attendant but this time had a second trainee. In standard Finnish bilingual style they did the whole briefing (one on PA, other doing the motions) in Finnish, followed by the whole thing again in Swedish. Then they looked at their manifest, looked at ME, looked at one another and nodded, and did the whole thing again in English, which of course I showed full attention to. Didn't take anything like an extra 10 minutes.

[fa2fi]

The eJ safety demo takes around three minutes. If you want to do it one language at a time there's 9 minutes.

Give or take a few seconds for the demo to start in the language.

Do you propose that the demo be shortened to fit it into the three languages in a shorter time? And skip detail?

And your comment about the noise of the PTU is an utter nonsense! Always sit in or near the over wing exits and I've never had a problem hearing BAs safety demo.

Making a comparison to a Scandinavian airline is a little unfair. Being bi or trilingual there is very common. With your modern European large airline you have less chance of crews speaking the languages of the city being served. This would not work with crew who don't speak the languages of the demo.

Sunwing have a safety video in English and French lasting over 8 minutes long. If it were in a third language it would be even longer.

[Legacy Driver]

Being somewhat taller than average, I always pay the bit extra for a legroom seat, (which has the added advantage of being (very) near an emergency exit!). I know that I have room to adopt an effective brace position. The reason for this is that on one of my first flights (about 10 years ago), the pilot aborted the take-off at the last moment, and stomped on the brakes (which he later explained was due to the fact that his seat shot back on its runners). During the stop, I was lucky not to hit my face on the back of the seat in front. Others were not quite so lucky.

Personally, I'd be happier with harnesses - I'm involved in rallying as navigator and safety provision, and I know what a big difference they make to survivability. However, I know that it is not really practical, so make do with what we are given.

Regarding taking luggage out of a damaged plane - I would not do it. Everything I will need from the minute I enter the airport to check in to when I get to my destination is on my person the whole time: passport, tickets, directions to destination, wallet, phone, keys (except when passing through security, when I tend to but everything except the phone in my baggage). Clothes with sufficient pockets are not hard to get, and I do not understand people who willingly separate themselves from these things. I might tend to be somewhat impatient with anyone p***ing about with baggage whilst impeding my exit from a damaged aircraft ...