Group Ownership in the East of England - So much demand, so few offerings...

[LukePilot152]

Hello,

This is my first post, but I thought it would be good to highlight a problem in my area. I, aged 16, am trying to find out the best way to make up a decent amount of hours over the next few years, while at sixth form.

During my searches, I cannot help but find that there is extremely high demand for aircraft syndicates or shares in the East of England, namely Cambridgeshire, Suffolk and Norfolk. However, there are, to say the least, very few available through the pages of various aviation classifieds websites.

Surely it would pay off to make a community of some kind to bring these share seekers together, in the hope that some could create their own share groups. Personally, I'm looking for shares in something like a Jabiru J160, Eurostar (VLA) or Sportstar RTC, that I could get hours towards my CPL on and would be cheap to run and economical. However, I am confined to £125 an hour for either club hire of a 152, or after a £1000 initial payment, hourly hire of a Cherokee.

Best Regards
Luke

[Buttino]

I completely agree with you, I'm learning in Earls Colne but there's nothing around whatsoever. I check the usual sites daily but zilch.

[fwjc]

You will find that there are plenty of groups out there but a) they don't advertise online and b) nobody wants hour builders in their group.

Hour builders tend to use and abuse aeroplanes, not caring about longer term maintenance issues because they're planning to be out of the group in a few months time. Their high demand affects availability for other group members and their low experience when starting out means they're more likely to make silly mistakes which can cost the group quite considerable money. All in all, not a good thing.

Where it can work is if someone has an aeroplane sitting idle who's looking for someone to fly it to cover costs. Then you can buy block hours along with your group "share" or membership.

[LukePilot152]

I'm not really looking to hour build over a short time. I'm looking for cheap flying (aren't we all?!) over a 3 year minimum share period. I reckon there must be at least 5 or 6 other pilots in the area who would be interested in a cheap to fly 2 seater. There are decent J160s out there for £30k, with 150s coming in as cheap as £15000

[fwjc]

If you know so many people who are in the same position as you, I recommend you pool together your resources and buy something that you want with your own group around it. 4-6 people works best. Budget for hangarage, insurance, hourly engine wear and tear, oil and fuel. Then don't forget the maintenance costs which can vary considerably from a couple of hundred per year to several thousand.
Also bear in mind that insurance is usually much higher if you are low hours, as you and all your friends are likely to be. There are discounts for >100 hours, >100P1, >500 hours.
I have turned away low hours hour builders, and invited low hours people who are looking for something to enjoy and have fun with. I know others that would do the same, and still more that would be quite happy to have hour builders in their group. I can think of three groups like that straight away. None advertise online, some advertise on the club notice board and some by word of mouth. But we are not East of England.

[foxmoth]

Yup - good business is to look for a gap in the market and make use of it, if there is a shortage here it is a good way to set up your own group, you may not get financial advantages, but you can be the one that leads what aircraft it is and what rules the group is set up with.:ok:

[LukePilot152]

Sadly, at near-17 I don't think that starting the group is quite what I had in mind! A good suggestion nonetheless, and one that is appealing. Hopefully I start my new job soon, so here's to saving up!

Best Regards
Luke

[this is my username]

You would struggle to get cheap flying out of the aircraft you have listed - they have a high capital cost which not only makes them expensive to buy but also expensive to insure - which in most cases will significantly outweigh the lower running costs.

To find a low-cost group you would probably be looking at an older aircraft with low performance operating on a permit. I recently found several in my local area in the £50 to £70 a month / £50 to £70 per hour bracket. Not South East, but not far away.

[Cusco]

Trouble is, East Anglia is a big place with relatively few widely scattered airstrips and licensed airfields.

I've been in our group for 18 years and every time we advertise a share we get comments such as 'lovely aeroplane bit it's just a bit too far to travel.....'

On average it takes 12 months + to shift a share.

I also agree that groups are reluctant to take on hour builders: fortunately we don't seem to get enquiries from hour builders

Cusco

[LukePilot152]

Looks like the best thing for me to do is to stay at the club. £195 a year and £115 an hour, but it looks like the best option for me, considering the fact for the first few years I might only be doing minimal hours.

[Bee Line]

Our group (which is based near Basingstoke, so a bit far from East Anglia) works out cheaper than the club rate you mentioned if you fly 1 hour/month or more in the 2 seater. We've been going for a long time, so the capital costs are all factored in now. Anyway, it is worth looking for a group if you are planning on doing at least 12 hours a year. If anyone is interested in joining a group in the South (except for hours builders, of course) PM me for more information. We've got shares available.

[LukePilot152]

Sadly there is a lack of 2 seater based shares in my area. Here are my options:

Bourn Rural Flying Corps:
Yearly Membership: £195
Hourly C152: £115
Hourly C172: £157
Distance: 10 minute walk

G-AVLB Group (Little Gransden)
Joining Fee: £1060
Monthly: £45
Cherokee 140 Hourly: £89 (Up to 1:15 can be counted as 1:00 on the tacho)
Distance: 15 minutes by car

G-BRPK Group (Little Gransden)
1/15th Share: £1000
Monthly: £50
Cherokee 140 Hourly: £75
Distance: 15 minutes by car

Socata Rallye 880B Group (Willingham)
1/5th Share: £3000
Monthly: £35
Hourly: £65
Distance: 25 minutes by car


They're all the ones I've found on Afors and the like.

Best Regards
Luke

[foxmoth]

I would say, if you can get the £3000 together go for the Tin Parachute (Rallye), an hour a month in that and you are saving, even allowing for interest if you borrow the £3000, if you fly more than that the cost comes down more, plus you will probably find you have more availabilty for taking it away. Do check they have a contingency and engine fund - you do not want to join then find you need to pay out a load. Also, just because it says £3000 does not mean that is what it will cost you - you can make an offer, if the person selling it has been trying for a while you might find you can get a fair chunk off that.

[mad_jock]

they seem pretty good to me

G-BRPK is a nice looking aircraft.

You don't need anything fast just solid.

The 140's aren't really a 4 seater. More of a 3 or two with some room to stick a tent etc in the back and go and have some fun.

[LukePilot152]

Thanks for the response everyone!

Just a few updates:

-The Socata Rallye 880B has around 3400 on the airframe and nearly 2000 on the engine. Also, it is now £80 per month and £50 per wet hour (old ad). It is based out of a small grass strip that is privately owned and does experience waterlogging, although there is a fund to get that Perfo stuff installed.

-G-BRPK has recently had a new engine, new prop, new Colton paint, new interior and in the flesh looks great (has visited Bourn often). I must admit also that this looks a great option, with better cruise speed and touring ability than the 152s at Bourn. I think it also has a Garmin GPS built in, something like a 395 or 495.

Best Regards
Luke

[shortstripper]

TMG/SLMG - 70 hours count to CPL.

Tibenham have a £300 power flying membership that allows flying their Grob 109 (lovely aeroplane) for £65/hour (on tacho) .... Switch the engine off and the rate comes down but the time still counts!

Worth thinking about surely??? :ok:

SS

[foxmoth]

and nearly 2000 on the engine

DEFINITELY needs to be an engine fund - and one with enough in to fund the replacement!

[Lost in Cloud]

TMG/SLMG - 70 hours count to CPL.

Shortstripper, Are you sure 70 hours count towards CPL? I looked into this a few years back and LASORS stated only 30 hours count. I know the CAP804 has replaced LASORS in the EASA world and admittedly I have not read CAP804 in any detail.

Any links or references to sections where it states 70 hours TMG can count to CPL would be much appreciated.

[shortstripper]

Yes you are right. It is 30 hours; the 70 hours thing must have stuck in my mind from something else?

However, 30 hours and a years membership is still only £75 per hour if all flown within the year ... A cheap, fun and instructional way to gain 30 hours I'd have thought? The training is free as it's done within the club and the TMG GFT is around £100. Bloody good value!

SS

[mad_jock]

I would have a bit more of a plan for your hour building.

You need to do more route work and decent sized nav ex's just flying an hour or two a month won't really prepare you for the CPL.

You would be better to save them up and do 30-40 with some decent long nav exercises to unfamiliar airports.

And although fun gliding about with the engine off doesn't really help you preparation for the CPL course.

[shortstripper]

That's true mad_jock, but the Grob 109 is a pretty good tourer for the hourly rate too!

No reason it couldn't be used to do the 300k cross country though I accept a VOR/DME equipped spamcan might be a better choice. I'd also suggest that "fun gliding about with the engine off" is a good way to improve handling skills which must also help with CPL prep. I'm simply suggesting it's a cheap way to do at 30 hours a bit differently and cheaply ... "more strings to your bow" and all that?

SS

[mad_jock]

CPL is more of a glorified PPL test in a retractable wobbly prop.

Confident nav using headings and times and recording in your Plog.

I don't know much about the General handling side of things in a single because I did mine in a twin.

But from memory its glide approaches, PFL's, Steep turns, and stalling.

The test will more than likely be done in a Piper product if done on a single.

The Cherokee has the aerodynamics of a house brick compared to the Grob. The difference between it and the bigger aircraft that the OP will be moving onto are minimal. Also the style of flying the grob will be different to what they are going to have to use for the CPL.

I have absolutely zero problems with aspiring commercial pilots gliding in fact I look for it on CV's. But from a fixed wing ex instructors point of view my opinion would be that the piper would give better continuation of experience up the aircraft sizes to CPL level than the grob. If after obtain the expensive blue book they are looking for an aircraft to stay current on or fly for fun I would say the grob should definitely be looked at.

[119.35]

Really!?? I've never known there to be huge demand for groups in Norfolk.

Whenever I've been to various flying clubs in Norfolk, there are always one or two adverts for shares on the notice boards that have been there for months, if not years.

I have never known demand to outstrip supply as shares are always notoriously hard to sell. There may not be that many groups around relatively speaking, but its always been and still is a buyers market when it comes to shares.

Fitting the particular groups criteria for acceptance, now that's a different matter altogether. And as already pointed out, hour builders quite often 'need not apply!'

[LukePilot152]

Interesting thought, mad jock. It looks like if I do more than one hour per month, the PA28 shares work out cheaper than flying at the club. 5 hours a month in G-AVLB works out as £385 for the 5 hours, so averages £77 per hour. I'm going to have to find a good paying job if I want to be able to do that much flying while at school in the week!

Sadly, it does seem that for as long as I am stuck at Sixth Form, I shall not be able to earn enough to fly more than 2 or 3 hours a month, absolute tops. Unless I manage to create a business that earns me thousands while doing nothing, I shall have to wait until I finish and get a full time job. By that point, I'll be applying for cadetships and the like, so it seems that keeping my PPL current will be the main aim.

Best Regards
Luke

[thing]

Sadly, it does seem that for as long as I am stuck at Sixth Form, I shall not be able to earn enough to fly more than 2 or 3 hours a month, absolute tops.

Crikey mate, when I was in 6th form I could barely afford the bus fair to the local aerodrome to look at the aircraft. What exactly does the modern 6th former do to earn three-four hundred quid a month?

[x933]

There was a share kicking around not so long ago in a nice little RF3 at Little Gransden. OK only one seat but it's the cheapest flying you'll ever do. Unsure of the rules on what's countable but surely if you add TMG to your EASA/JAA PPL then you can fly the RF3 under the priviledges of your SEP and thus count the hours?

[LukePilot152]

"Crikey mate, when I was in 6th form I could barely afford the bus fair to the local aerodrome to look at the aircraft. What exactly does the modern 6th former do to earn three-four hundred quid a month?"

Lets say 2 hours.

G-AVLB:
£85 per hour.
£45 per month.

Therefore £215 per month.

Job: 4 hours evening per week x2 and 8 hours Saturday work @ £5.07-£5.75 per hour depending on department (let's say £5.07)

That makes £81.12 per week. Times that by four and you get £324.48 per month. That allows contingency for the flying to get study materials and other things.

[thing]

Fair enough. It would seem that opportunities for jobs are greater than in my time. I used to work a Saturday job for 30 bob a week (£1.50). There weren't any evening jobs as such. No MacD's and what have you. Best of luck anyway.

[fwjc]

Luke, in your little bit of sums there, have you included costs for maintenance? A big bill can ruin budgets. The benefit of hiring, in the short term, is that you know exactly what you will spend. Also, don't forget landing fees...

[mad_jock]

Luke I have taught many pilots who have then gone on to be commercial at your age.

There is always a common problem.

You burn the hours out of sync with your stage in commercial training.

Yes everyone wants to go solo at 16 and have the license in there hands at 17. But then unless you have a serious plan of how to fund and do the commercial bit of your training you end up doing a few hours with no real plan and then stalling for lack of cash. Then when you do manage to scrape together the cash you don't have any extra to hit the training running and current.

I would advise that you hold back your training until you can fund right the way through to CPL and FI stage if that's the way you want to build hours. But even then you have to have a plan to get the IR within 2 years which you won't be able to do on a PPL instructors wage.

If you go through the forums you will find information on GAPAN and air league both of which do bursary's for young pilots.

the other thing to start on is building your CV there are 100's if not thousands of CV's out there that look exactly the same. Same hours same hobbys same everything to be honest apart from a slight variation in exam scores.

You need to start working on being different to the crowd, go push a wheelchair for some charity group, get a hobby that isn't football or reading. Try and develop your CV and get some experience which you can talk about at interview.

Unfortunately getting the blue CPL license is only the start of the process to become a commercial pilot. Getting a job can be even harder than getting the license.

[abgd]

Might sound a funny idea, but would you fancy building a plane? An hour a night and you could have a single-seater - something like a mini-max - by the time you were ready to do your PPL and then you could easily afford to stay current.

[LukePilot152]

Just a thought, but would it be worth asking around and advertising to see whether anyone in the area would be interested in sharing something like a Jodel D112? I've heard that the D112 is the ideal group aircraft - cheap to buy, cheap to run and lovely to fly. An example could be a group near Bath where they share a D112 between six people, and each pay £45 a month and £10 per dry hour.

Seems like very good value to me, considering that you can pick up a recently rebuilt one with less that 300 on the engine for £10k

[mad_jock]

lovely aircraft, tail dragger which will improve your handling and situational awareness.

Only problem is it really needs to be hangered. And if you have any problems with the airframe or skin requiring to be fixed it can be a pain to find someone that can do a good job fixing it.

Unfortunately there is a distinct lack of instructors qualified to do the differences training on them.

Ideally you would want a group with a range of experience on tail draggers along with someone that knows about the paper work side of things for ownership.

Again most tail dragger groups aren't interested in hour builders.

I have seen a few kids that have got in with a local owner who doesn't fly much and is more than happy to take the kid under their wing and watch them develop. But to find one of them your going to have to put the time in turning up at airfields. Offering to wash aircraft etc.

[foxmoth]

Unfortunately there is a distinct lack of instructors qualified to do the differences training on them.

Not sure how true this is - if you have the aircraft, then, certainly in the S UK, an instructor is easy enough to find - if you know nothing about the instructor I would ask what Tailwheel instructing they have done and also if they teach wheeler landings. What can be hard to find is a Tailwheel instructor with easy access to a suitable aircraft.

[mad_jock]

I stand corrected for your area foxmouth.

Certainly getting the moons aligned with student, instructor, aircraft further north can be a bit of a challenge.

[LukePilot152]

mad_jock - part of your advice was to work on being different. One year on, and going through my PPRune history, I think I owe you some thanks. I took the advice and started my own business importing from China. I now make £200-£300 profit per month. I help the scouts gliding club once or twice a month. I help in a balloon chase crew in return for hot air balloon hours. Heck, I even do amateur photography work. It's been the most fun year of my life, so thank you.

Maybe I'll do another update this time next year :)

[mad_jock]

Well done, that will definitely stand out on your CV.

And it sounds like your enjoying it as well.

And you never know with that lot you might get a shot at being a BA cadet!!.

How's the flying coming along?

[LukePilot152]

The flying is coming along very well - even after having to negotiate my first set of A-Levels and a case of mistaken identity (that almost landed me in unbelievable amounts of poop), I am one exam away from finally getting my license. My attempt at 'doing more' has also led to some very fun flights - the most notable being a flight in a Pressurised Centurion to 18000 feet.

I did, however, get a pretty bad knee injury following an 'eventful' landing sequence in a hot air balloon, which ended with me stopping a full 30 ft from the basket.

I would love to become a BA cadet for sure, but I have also been trying to have a more open mind regarding possible jobs in the future - Airlines, Cargo, Private Jets, Bush Flying - if you don't mind what you do, it's not nearly as difficult to get into the career - albeit still challenging!

Regards
Luke

[Genghis the Engineer]

Not sure how true this is - if you have the aircraft, then, certainly in the S UK, an instructor is easy enough to find - if you know nothing about the instructor I would ask what Tailwheel instructing they have done and also if they teach wheeler landings. What can be hard to find is a Tailwheel instructor with easy access to a suitable aircraft.

That last point is certainly true.

I've the right experience and qualifications, but have had to turn down a number of instructing tasks because I can't get my hands on a taildragger with the right combination of paperwork and controls.

(On which point, if there's anybody in the south of England who does have a training-suitable taildragger they'd be interested in leasing me by the hour for occasional instructing purposes, I'd love to hear from them.)

G