Reasonable Career expectations..

[Gearupandorrf]

Hi guys,

Would be interested in any and all opinions that you may have.

Have finished my CPL, and will have the last ATPL subject and MECIR done shortly. Will have 300 hrs at that stage, however my next birthday will be my 40th.

So- almost to the next stage of getting that first job (we don't have kids and have the House paid off- so I can be flexible and mobile in regards to looking for work). Will be setting course for the north west- Kimberley region to get the first job.

I want to fly for a living because I love flying- that is purely my motivation for doing this. I currently work in Flight Operations/ Dispatch for a major Australian Airline and am only too aware that even flying Jets becomes just a job for most people after the "honeymoon" period ends. I'm not getting in to it for the perceived money or glamour because, let's face it, getting up at 3.30am after 4 days isn't. And given my current position in Flight Ops, I'm only too aware of the fact that Management will continue to try to find new ways to drive down overall T's & C's (unless the supply v's demand equation drastically changes).

So I'd be curious to know, based on where I'm at now and my circumstances- what can I realistically aspire to in the years ahead? I'd like to think that I have enough years left in me to have the earnings potential to enjoy a half decent quality of life and plan for eventual retirement.

Would:
- Flying Twins in GA,
- Regional Turboprop FO,
- Regional Turboprop Captain,
- Low Cost Jet FO, Or;
- Low Cost Jet Captain
Be what I could realistically try to plan for in the years ahead?

Looking forward to your thoughts.

Cheers,
Gearup.

[TheExpatPilot]

After you get a couple thousand hours (maybe even less?) you'd be in with a good shot at the regionals, not sure about the majors though, but you never know. I know a few guys who started in their late 30's/early 40's, took the flight instructor path, got a decent amount of hours and got into the regionals. One is even a training captain now. Good luck with it all.

[Goat Whisperer]

You can fly jets domestically beyond 60, and a significant number do.

That gives you at least 2 full decades in the industry, more than enough time to make to a command on a wide body jet that probably doesn't even exist yet, and on the way ride the ups and down of a career, spending patches unemployed through times thick and thin.

Many of my crowd went from begging for a C206 job to narrow body jet command in 10 years, and that was including some very lean years including 2001. No reason why you can't do that too.

Flexibility, willingness to relocate and a supportive partner will help massively.

[Ski Guru]

That post made me feel dirty.

[SixDemonBag]

The world is still your oyster.

Of course the first 500-1000 yours are the hardest to get in the book. Options in GA are quite limited nowadays. Shoot out resumes to EVERY passenger charter/ freight charter/parachute dropping/cattle mustering/freight running/patient moving/fire spotting/aerial photography/scenic touring/mine running/bank running mob you can get the contact details for.

My first two GA jobs we just a case of being in the right place at the right time.

Finally, don't underestimate the ADVANTAGE your age will have on some prospective employers. If the left seat of a High performance turboprop is your cup of tea, it might be a good fit. There are many variables in life and aviation...and 5 year is a LONG time! Good luck.

It's nice to see a thread like this pop up every once and a while to put things in perspective.

Hope we can all behave. Cue spelling police and grammar nazi's

[AU-501]

Aim as high as you wish.

The drive you have shown undertaking the training is right. The exposure to the industry given by your current employment, should allow for some networking-use it.

Once you get your first job, enjoy it and with the next one enjoy etc etc. With every opportunity keep your standards high, don't get slack and take too many short cuts-be disciplined.

Do not worry about your age, do not even think about it except to get spoilt on your birthday. Aim for what ever you want to achieve, only you and the economy can affect the outcomes. Have a go it is better to die trying (yeah thats a bit extreme but you get the idea).

The ace of the base can be just that and they are everywhere,so ride low in the saddle and in the middle of the posse.

oh and something else you have in your favour- a supportive partner, don't forget !!!!

you are already half way to wherever it is you are going. Have fun,:ok:

[OhForSure]

I believe you could end up being in any of those positions you listed. I would suggest you set your goals on something realistic, say regional captain, and you may well end up going further!

Remember aviation is a highly cyclical industry. Everyone seems to have their ups and downs along the way. I'm still in my twenties, but when I started, I had to fund my own training which meant full time work, uni and flying at the same time. For this reason it took 5 years to finish my training, which looking back now was a long time. It didn't help that flying schools kept shutting down or instructors were useless or the wettest summer in history would arrive when I'd organised annual leave to fly... There always seemed to be some hurdle to jump. But I still loved the journey.

Funnily enough things suddenly turned around for me. I went from GA to international widebody F/O in only a few years. You could be the same!

If you love doing it, you'll always be happy. Good luck!

[Username here]

I have NEVER seen this much positivity on PPRUNE!!!

It's bloody awesome to see! :ok::ok::ok::ok:

[Zoomy]

I'll second Username heres' quote....Great to read such positive advice!:ok:

So for my two bobs worth, get into it!!!

[D check]

I agree that this much positivity is rarely shown on PPRuNe and as such I have posted (normally I would not under any circumstances).... I have just achieved my first 'real' interview with Air NZ on their domestic turboprop carriers. I am soon to pass a significant milestone in age terms and like many out there have taken anything I can, mostly charter work overseas and instructing at home whilst balancing a family life and earning a crust.

As my own instructor's/mentors point out to me, your positivity and keen attitude are what will get you noticed and likely employed. I also heartily agree with the 'advantage' your years will provide you, life experience is a great asset. You have more going for you than you may realise and I for one am always very pleased when a senior crew flies me from A to B. The 'grey haired' ones probably have forgotten more about aviation than you will ever know and learning from these individuals is one of the best things you can do should the opportunity arise.

Oh, for the record you are not too old, I know someone who learn't the 737 in his sixties.....successfully....

Apologies for any upsets the post may cause, it is not my wish to offend as I believe we all have something to offer.

[deadcut]

Seeing someone head to the Kimberley in July, just breaks my heart. With the demise of a few operators, it's hard to get a job out there at the best of times, let alone now, and half-way throughout the season.

Slam, it's not all doom and gloom up here. Schlongair alone took on 10 pilots this dry.

[neville_nobody]

Depends much on the industry and being the right place at the right time with the right hours. Flying a jet is very realistic if you're happy to do charter as a career. Jobs like cobham and alliance would be realistic.

Some of the projections on here are a bit unrealitic took most guys I knew around 8-10 years to get into a jet somewhere. Very few people in Australia will get into jets after a year or two in GA unless you are a second officer in QF. You will need to bust out of GA in a hurry.

Funnily enough things suddenly turned around for me. I went from GA to international widebody F/O in only a few years. You could be the same!

I assume that is for a foreign carrier? The minmums in Australia for that job alone would be nigh impossible in that time frame.

[Checkboard]

Starting at the end of 1989, I was:

2.5 years a flying instructor
1.5 years a GA freight pilot (bank runs)
6.5 years an Ansett FO
2 years unemployed (retraining, emigrating and some pub jobs)
1.5 years a European airline FO
8 years a European airline Captain.

[Steve Zissou]

As an example over here in NZ, Air NZ are actively recruiting pilots for their Regional operations (ATR, Q300, B1900).

Minimums have reduced significantly for all fleets over the last couple of years and it would be worth having a look on the careers link supplied on the Air NZ website. Being an Australian I'm assuming you'll have the right to work in NZ if that is something that rocked your boat. Good luck.

[haughtney1]

I hate to say it, or too sound in anyway insensitive or arrogant, but the way forward is pure hard work and determination.
Remember the old saying? ''the harder I work, the luckier I get'' and that is what it boils down too.
Door knock, get in front of people, be that person they think of, yes you are a little bit older, but you are also wiser, more experienced in life and I would assume that you have a more mature outlook.
Airline flying for most of us is more of a job now than a vocation (I fly a glider now when I want to actually fly) so set your sights where you think you can achieve a good income and as suitable lifestyle for you and your nearest and dearest.
Most importantly...remain focused, remain committed, and remain enthusiastic.

[Anthill]

Factor in that you many have to rebuild your career at some time during the future. Airline companies have a habit of going out of business occasionally.

1) from 1986, 5 years in GA.
2) 10.5 years as a FO at Ansett
3) hospital orderly for 11 months with 8500 hrs including 4500 hrs on jets. 85 resumes sent with 4 responses.the 4th one being a "yes".
4)contract FO overseas for 2 years.
5) 2.5 years as FO with a regional turbo-prop operator.
6) 2 years as a jet captain with a charter company.
7) last 4 years as a FO at Virgin.

Currently I am building my career path to being a jet captain for the 3rd time. Some have a dream run thru their career, I am not one of them. what I thought would be "reasonable career expectations" have been circumvented by economic circumstances and the seniority system. How your career will unfold is a mystery.

The only thing that you can control is how you respond to the slings and arrows of fortune. If you can be prepared to get back up the mat time and time again, maybe you'll have some good memories and stories for retirement. Remember that of the 830 pilots at Ansett, only 550 were in flying jobs 5 years later.

Best of luck, whatever you choose :ok:

[By George]

I admire your spirit 'Anthill' you are exactly what this business is all about. It is not an easy road, or one for the faint hearted. Took me 20 years to first Jet Command. It has always been an Industry Standard to be in GA for five years and then an F/O for ten. Exceptional circumstances have made the break for many over the years but under normal times, it's a long slog.
Go overseas is my advice. Australia is now considered a backwater with little movement. Look at Qantas and their promotional prospects. Best thing I ever did was to go off-shore. Best eleven years of my life, good money, low tax and saw the world. It's quiet out there at the moment but it will pick up again.
Good luck to you 'Gearupandorff', welcome to the nut-house.

[the_rookie]

Where abouts overseas? From what I've read America isn't worth it with terrible pay and conditions and no jobs in the uk. Could be way off the mark though

[mcgrath50]

Where abouts overseas? From what I've read America isn't worth it with terrible pay and conditions and no jobs in the uk. Could be way off the mark though

Any of the growing economies, Asia and the Middle East would be the place to start looking.

[By George]

America has never really been an option, Green Card issues and too many of their own out of work in recent years.
Asia and the Middle East are recruiting. It's easier if you have Command time, that has always been the case. LCC's are taking low-time pilots.
I met a young Indian pilot in Singapore two years ago. His Dad was a taxi driver who took me to work several times and introduced me in the hope of helping his son get a leg up. He had just completed a 'jam factory' course in New Zealand and had only a bare Licence. In the last year he has studied hard, converted it to a Singapore Licence and just got a go with Tiger Asia. All he needs now is a couple of years of Jet time and he'll be away. They have no GA up there, so they have an added disadvantage.
Korean and various Chinese Airlines are recruiting now. Again, things are quiet at the moment, SQ has dumped all it's expats and the 'Doom and Gloom' merchants are having a field day. It will come back, be ready and give it a go.
Coming home to Australia, for me, has been a huge disappointment, so much bull-**** from CASA, GA is dead, ATC is a joke and the whole country is full of tattooed Bogans (and that's just the women).

[redsnail]

UK/Europe is difficult mainly because of the mind destroying EASA licence conversion and visa/passport issues.

However, the feeling here is that 2014 is about to change hiring wise. In fact, it's already begun in a slow-ish way.

[Centaurus]

be that person they think of, yes you are a little bit older, but you are also wiser, more experienced in life and I would assume that you have a more mature outlook

Didn't work for me:ugh: Was retrenched out of a wonderful job flying 737's around the South Pacific and had lots of hours too. Was around 53 years old and loved flying too much to give it all away. Problem was one had to eat. Applied to Australia Post to be a motor bike postman as I have always liked to travel - Moonee Ponds here I come:ok:

Sat the Australia Post aptitude test and failed:ugh: So I could fly the South Pacific and dodge around the CB's but considered unsuitable to dress up in flashy yellow plastic suit with big crash helmet and poke letters through post boxes.

So drove a taxi instead. Two years later got back into my old job of flying the 737. Swings and roundabouts

[Homesick-Angel]

To be quite frank, if I were looking for potential employees,someone like the original poster would be ideal.

The aviation experience will come quick enough, but the life experience, balance and general mature outlook will not be found in so quickly. Id say from reading just one of your posts that you would offer something entirely different, and enticing to any company.

I am being generalistic here, but the average 20-25 year old cant get near your experience and skills notwithstanding the fact there are some quality people out there in that age bracket, but they can tend to be little less stable overall.

I think the fact that you are willing to just get out there and work hard will be key, but be prepared to be right back at the bottom of a new industry.I changed career late,came from the very top of my game in another field, and a fair dose of humility is required as you will come across people of all ages who worked hard to get where they are, and will unfortunately may try and stomp you.Just keep your head down and you will quickly gain respect.

Keep in mind the airlines are not the only way to make a living in aviation. you can still find other ways if you keep your eyes open.

good luck

[Shagpile]

This is a good podcast on the benefits of quitting!

Freakonomics » The Upside of Quitting (http://www.freakonomics.com/2011/09/30/new-freakonomics-radio-podcast-the-upside-of-quitting/)

Many people place too much value in "sunk cost". I.e. they see what they have put into their existing job as over-valued. Lots of data shown that people who quit (anything) generally happier.

Anyway worth a listen!

[autoflight]

High on your list should be your first flying job. Be prepared to fly single engine in some remote place and you will soon have another 500 to 1000 hours with possibly some of that on twins.

The pay will be less, but it is possible to be just as happy in left seat of your turboprop as an airline jet.

Setting a goal as mid size jet captain will work if there is lots of recruiting. Any substantial general downturn in airlines, like experienced after the first Iraq War, would set your plans back a lot.

Getting that interview and being available to start today are black arts that need mastering. I had it on good authority that there was a 727 job in Casablanca. Bought a one way ticket from Brisbane. On arrival was told there were no positions. Hung around for a couple of days and got the job. There will be hundreds of stories like that.

[OZvandriver]

Mate there's no reason why that goal of ending up a Jet skipper can't happen. You've got 25 years to make it happen as well as airline ops experience.

Having said that I'm also finding it a bit difficult to move on to the twins! I'm very lucky and happy to be flying the caravan but I'm ready to move on now.

Good luck!

[Gearupandorrf]

Hi everyone,

Thanks so much to all of you who have taken the time to reply- it's much appreciated.

My overall attitude/ approach towards the next phase (first jobs) are:

- Despite my age, to remain teachable and humble enough to learn from any and all who can impart wisdom (whether the advice is from someone 20 years older or 20 years younger than me).

- Being older, to always make an effort to lead by example personally and professionally. This includes maintaining the same standards that got me through the CPL.

- When it comes to getting the first job: to focus on what else I can bring to an operator apart from a CPL and 300 hrs. In a market where everyone has the same qualification, I think getting a job will hinge on:
- The CP's first perceptions of me as a person and;
- What other skills I can bring to further their business.
In my working life to date, I've picked up lots of experience in Sales/ Customer Service/ Marketing/ Office Admin as well as Flight Operations/ Dispatch here in Australia and the UK. If I can get 5 minutes in front of a Chief Pilot and explain how I can employ that expertise in their operation, then I'm hoping that I would have a fairly compelling case as to why I should be given the job.

To reply/ comment to some of you individually:

slam click: I know the north west/ Kimberley plan sounds odd given the time of year, but there's a method to it. I'm on good terms with the owner of one of the largest GA operators in the north west (a few mates who work/ worked there have put some good words in for me) . Thanks to staff travel and blocks of days off from my current job, I'm heading up there soon for 4 days or so and apart from meeting the Owner/ CP, I'll spend a few days actually working there so that the operation can get to know me. Using this method, I'm hoping that I'll be that person who gets thought of when they next need to hire someone. I plan to use time off over the next few months to repeat the same process in other locations. This way I can actually get to show what I'm able to offer their business. Because at the end of the day, that's what I'm doing- helping someone to run their business.

TheExpatPilot: I've considered the Flight Instructor route, but have decided against it as it's not what I really want to do. As a bare CPL holder, I don't feel that I'd have anything of value to pass on. Plus the idea of living and working in the north west really excites me.

Goat Whisperer: That's what I was thinking...more than two decades in the industry should give me time to make it to a LCC Jet Captain or Senior FO. As you can probably tell, I have no problem with flexibility or willingness to relocate. Plus I'm lucky to have a Wife who's 110% behind what I'm doing.

SixDemonBag: The LH Seat of a high performance Turboprop sounds appealing- I could see myself being happy with that. Looking forwards, it comes down to what can offer the best overall combination of lifestyle and quality of life.

AU-501: You'd think that working in Flight Dispatch at a major Airline would allow for some great networking, but despite trying I've not found that to be the case. The Pilots that I get to interact with have generally long since GA so can't really help with networking. What I WILL be doing though is leaving my job on good terms, and maintaining contact with the CP/ Fleet Managers/ Pilot Recruitment Manager etc. for when I reach the Direct Entry minimums. I like your advice re: just enjoying things. In fact I've started taking lots of pictures/ vids of my flying and will continue to do so- it's all part of the journey.

OhForSure: Mate congratulations on your achievement! Conducting your CPL training around work and study is no mean feat, so well done.

D Check and Steve Zissou: Thanks for your suggestion re: the ANZ Regionals- it's not an approach that I'd considered. I'm going to look further into that.

Checkboard: Thanks for that run down of your experience. I get to interact with a lot of ex- Ansett people at work, and admire your persistence in rebuilding your career.

haughtney1: Copy everything you say. I'm under no illusions that I'm in for some hard work and have no issues with that. I've come to learn that you can't have too many contacts and networks.

I've got some more replies to acknowledge, but will do so tomorrow. In the meantime, it's back to CP calculations in Flight Planning. Urgh!

Cheers,
Gearup.

[Mach E Avelli]

Gearup, with that reply and attention to detail, my bet is you will make a good Chief Pilot some day.

[Mach E Avelli]

Bollocks he is too old. Maybe for Qantas or Emirates, but as has been suggested elsewhere, he could still be in the game for 25 years. That's enough for a very good career in a smaller jet airline or a turboprop regional.
Also, if anyone shows management talent, it is not hard to bypass a lot of the seniority hurdles.

[Metro man]

Your age will be a big advantage with the regionals, you are much more likely
to stick around than a 23 year old who has a file full of applications to the majors.

[FlareHighLandLong]

Remember there is a couple of operators around the place that have large range of aircraft types that would allow you to progress from RHS of a turboprop all the way to a jet captaincy. Like the old Skywest (which you can still join as VARA where who knows what opportunities will or won't be available), I am sure there are a few around.