King Air Runup - In Reality

[balaton]

Hi Dear King Air Guys,

It's time to confess: do you go through all the runup items (governors, autofeather, etc.) before every takeoff? With all those vibrations, shaking, noise and wear and tear on your plane? Even if there is a long queue behind you at a major airport? With the boss and his guests on board? I know, I know it is in the AFM. But in reality, do you have some shortcuts or own, simplified procedure?
Appreciate your replies,

b

[ahramin]

First flight of the day, full runup. Otherwise I skip it.

[604guy]

Any King Air checklist I have ever seen pretty clearly allows for pilot discretion on the items you cite, and others, after the first flight of the day. If you choose to do those items on every flight then that is an operational decision on your or your flight department's part and not necessarily an AFM/POH requirement.

[silverknapper]

Agree above. Mainly first flight of day. Though in some of the shadier parts of the world I've seen certain items ignored away from home. A good example being the FSOV check before start, given the propensity for some part numbers to freeze on the closed position.

It's amazing how little time they take with a bit of practice though.

[Teldorserious]

Yes. Because when you take off and your autofeather doesn't work everyone on the plane dies.

The fact that this has to be explained to professional pilots is just beyond amazingly stupid and belies what's going on in the industry right now.

[long final]

Teldorserious, a little overreactive and general too, IMO. I am totally for all required checks to be done, however a failed auto-feather system should not result in your predicted outcome as long as the pilot can manage the situation correctly.

[Miles Magister]

Balaton,

Your question is a good sensible and one and just to help your understanding when managing a New B200 for a few years I always did the run up checks and allowed the engines to idle for 1 min before shutting down as per the flight manual. I used to get slightly better fuel burn than other aircraft I was aware of. Also someone I knew never did the checks in the KA he managed and had to have a full overhaul on one engine before the mid life hotsection was due due to bearing wear.

In addition doing the checks effectively changes the oil in the propeller control mechanism which means the 'cold' oil has been flushed through with warm oil before the takeoff run which would otherwise be the first time the pitch change mechanism is used on the trip thus possibly reducing long term wear and thermal shock.

I also never selected reverse below 60kts which was the unofficial advice of my FS instructor/Beechcraft and P&W rep. My propellers remained in good condition. Although I did use the full flight envelope of the engine whist some people do advise keeping the temp below 700 in flight.

Overall I believe in doing the checks, never reversing the aircraft to park and allowing the engines to run down before shutdown whist using the full flight envelope.

I hope this is a useful view for you,

MM

[Dufo]

Inop autofeather shouldn't be an excuse to crash when one burner goes to shavasana mode.
Usually there are VmcA increments and/or max mass limitations when it's inop but it's still perfectly dispatchable.

[Yeager]

Doing full systems tests first flight of the day makes sense. Any full/partial systems tests for any particular reason on consecutive trip the same day - why not. BUT just because you run a systems test doesn't mean that the systems can't fail when a failure happens.

Most importantly - what the aircraft manufacture has written in the AFM/OM/FM should of course be followed. As a professional pilot one should know that he is not better than those test pilots who worked out the numbers and the engineers who constructed the systems.

If there's doubt - there's no doubt. :ok:

[balaton]

Hi All,

Many thanks for your replies, most of your points are taken and will be considered.
Miles Magister: appreciate your very good points. I was not aware of these warm-up considerations in relation to pretakeoff checks.

Cheers,
b

[Teldorserious]

You guys aren't very sharp. First if belies you guys haven't flown Tprops single engine, secondly it belies that you don't understand certfication standards. No one puts AF on an aircraft for fun and games. It's there because the FAA required it to be there. If you knew why, then you would check your AF.

[His dudeness]

ahhh, the ultimate Skygod spoke.


What happens on the Kingairs with no autofeather fitted? Glad you're not flying those!

Good point.

Even the FAA MMEL says "C" item... May be inoperative provided:

a) Aircraft is not modified with STC SA2307CE, and

b) Aircraft is not equipped with Four Bladed Propellers.



Back to you, Master of flying....

[Yeager]

I've got plenty of multi engine turbo prop. time and what I do KNOW is that its not God damn rocket science to feather a propeller - if you can't handle that, you should just go back to your office job and fly the latest flight simulator version, where you can do a re-boot! Autofeather - wooow - big deal. Give me a break.

Do what the manual says and what the situational awareness says its right - PILOT ****.

The initial question is a very good one - what do PILOTs acutally do, on the King Airs at the end of the day. To what I recall we would do all the checks FFOTD. This was back in 97-98 EU reg.

[Teldorserious]

I'm still waiting for a WHY AF is installed. Yeager thinks it's an extra pilot to feather the prop, and dudeness has no idea, just reads the checklist....WHY gentleman. The WHY is the difference between a guy that reads checklist and a captain that has to know these things.

[Yeager]

WHY are you stealing our air? WHY? :{

[His dudeness]

and dudeness has no idea, just reads the checklist

I knew it. I knew, something is wrong with me.

Thanks for enlightening me.

Just for the record, an MMEL / MEL is NOT a checklist. But you knew that, didn´t you?

Now, troll, fukc off to MS FS land.

[aerobat77]

why don,t you play it nice guys ?

[604guy]

I'm still waiting for a WHY AF is installed

Just for the record, on many models of King Air or within certain serial number parameters, autofeather is/was an optional item that is/was chosen, or not, at time of airframe manufacture. I have been to the factory on several occasions in years past to spec out new airframes and been given the option........much like fire bottles, an optional item.

[Daniel_11000]

A working AF reduces VMCa . This is reflected in AFM, where also TO distance will change accordingly between a dispatch with AF working and AF not working, due to different VMCa

The TO speeds and distances based on a working AF are lower than for the same a/c with the AF not working –can be even 20 KIAS.

Knowing that AF work, allows the scheduling of lower TO speeds , and use of shorter runways.
In order to ‘know’ the functionality f the systems , the manufacturer/CAA/FAA can require a check every flight , or every day , or every xxx something, and if you need to use the lower speed schedule, you need to do the AF test as requested by the manufacturer

[long final]

Oh my goodness, time to get my hat.

[Teldorserious]

Daniel I am going to need you to post up the no AF numbers vs installed numbers out of the same flight manual to prove that it changes VMC. I am not doubting on certain aircraft that might be the case, but this is the first time I am have heard that mentioned and it's definately outside of 'what makes sense'.

[Daniel_11000]

TELDOSERIOUS,

refer to P180 AFM, Sect 2 – Limitations, Pag 2-3
VMCa AF System Operating : 100 KIAS
VMCa AF System Not Operating (propeller windmilling) : 128 KIAS

The difference is due to the fact that, with AF not operating, there is such a huge drag from the windmilling propeller that VMCa is to be increased by approx 30 KIAS, this make a lot of sense to me.

Not all the a/c shows this difference in limitations with and without AF.

Attempting a TO on the assumption that the AF system is working, if in fact it is not working, will end in a dysaster if one engine fails at a TO speed schedule which is 30 KIAS lower than the minimum reuqired.

[Teldorserious]

Daniel,

Thanks, can you post up those pages? I don't have a Piaggio manual. I am curious is the AF an install option on that aircraft, is the pilot allowed to fly installed but non operational? Also, what are the single engine unfeathered climb numbers on that aircraft. From what you are saying it sounds like the OEM is giving you a new VMCA only in the event that it fails, not as an option do depart with a working AF or not.

All that said the Piaggio has less asymetrical thrust issues then other aircraft so it would be fascinating to think that this aircraft is even flyable unfeathered where in a conventional aircraft it's a disaster.

I am just curious because on some other aircraft with an AF installed, there was no install option, nor any choice to fly with out it being operational, that as you touched upon, the reason was the unfeathered profile was so disastrous that it was actually a negative climb rate at VMCA.

[Daniel_11000]

... I am still trying to find out how to attach files, since it seems that I am not eligible to do that ("you may not attach files" itr says....)
Danioel

[421C]

I am just curious because on some other aircraft with an AF installed, there
was no install option, nor any choice to fly with out it being operational, that
as you touched upon, the reason was the unfeathered profile was so disastrous
that it was actually a negative climb rate at VMCA.

That doesn't make sense. Plenty (most?) twins have negative climb at Vmca unfeathered. Aren't there different certification rules being muddled here - ie. how Vmca is derived for certification purposes and the requirement for autofeather, and how SE climb requirements are calculated (clean/feathered/Vyse/Bank into live etc)

My understanding is that on certain KA models, Beech (or Raisbeck) wanted to take advantage of the lower Vmca available from AF and asked the FAA to accept a Vmca when feathered (rather than the windmilling standard) if AF was fitted. That made the AF a required item both for certification and operationally (since they didn't publish "No AF" performance). However there were 4 blade KA models that didn't require AF, had different low pitch mechanisms I think.

Don't take my word for it, it's in Tom Clements' King Air book, from p205.

[Teldorserious]

421c - Right, except you won't find the unfeathered numbers on a Conquest I, which was my introduction to the AF. When I asked, and asked, turns out the unpublished numbers are so horrible that the AF is required, so much so, the manufacturer took feathering the prop completely out of the hands of the pilot.

Whether the AF is optional on the King Air or P180 is certainly possible if it was installed as a pilot helper, a safety enhancer because on those aircraft an unfeathered prop is not the end of the world.

What AF really does is immediately feather the prop, and the right one, where pilots take some time to figure it out, as feathering the wrong one has killed people, and since I teach this stuff, it's one of those, 'better get this one right type of things'. So if VMCA is higher on say a Piaggio, with out the AF, that tells me they are trying to keep the pilots at a safe speed unfeathered, until they can get the prop feathered. In the Conquest there is no unfeathered VMCA, where I assume it doesn't exist, it's that bad.

The point being is that if the xlist says to check the AF, yeah you better check it, or your are playing test pilot.

[Daniel_11000]

Teldorserious,
since I am unable to upload attachments (I am waiting suggestions from the Administrator)
I copy herebelow the relevant parts of the AFM (you can anyway download it from different websites)


Rev.0 Issued 21-oct-2005
Pag.2-2
Minimum control speed
Autofeather system operative 100 KIAS
Propeller windmilling 128 KIAS

Engine failure in flight below Vmca
Pag 3-6
1 Power lever (operating engine) Reduce power to maintain control
2 Airspeed Increase above VMCa
3 Power Lever (Operating engine) AS REQUIRED
4 Inoperative engine : SECURE as per ENGINE SECURING Procedure

Limitations pag 2-9
Autofeather system limits
WARNING : no take off is authorized with AF inoperative
1 The AF system must be pre flight checked operational prior to take off
2 The AF system must be used for TO and Landing operations

The P180 is not allowed to TO with AF inoperative ; besides, the single-engine climb performance , and all other single-engine performances, are all based on a feathered propeller.

Different things are the cause of the high VMCa (windmilling) : among them, the fact that the tail arm is ‘short’, and this impact not only on the rudder authority, but also on the tail damping during a dynamic engine failure, where the yaw rate has been considered extremely high .
Daniel

[Teldorserious]

Daniel - Thanks. Looks like I was right, even on the Piaggio.

So I guess it's on the King Air guys now to post up something that says the AF on their birds is optional.

[Brian Abraham]

It's model dependant. The old 200 model King Airs with the three blade propellers came from the factory with auto feather as an option. From what I was told. It wasn't "cool " or "real men feather there own props". So initially the system was slow to be accepted to the flying population. Still today many older 200's are flying around with no autofeather fitted.

When Beechcraft built the B200 fitted with the new 4 blade Raisbeck props during the certification they discovered that the Vmca increased from 91KIAS to 108KIAS with a windmilling propellor. So a failed autofeather system on the 4 blade versions is a "no go" item and no provision is made in the MEL for you to dispatch with out auto feather.

From a Raisbeck King Air manual

AUTO FEATHERING SYSTEMS:
The Beech Propeller Autofeathering System must be installed, operational, and armed for takeoff, climb and approach.

CAUTION
With one-engine either at idle or inoperative, flaps up and propeller windmilling, VMCA may be as high as 108 KIAS.

[His dudeness]

Way before you could have Raisbeck installed by the factory, Beech sold the B200 with four bladed props (McCauleys and not Hartzells like the Raisbeck props) and AF installed/required.

it wasn't "cool " or "real men feather there own props". So initially the system was slow to be accepted to the flying population.

I think thats bollocks. Equipping an airplane often is a balance between budget and requirements. Most KingAirs don´t have the fire extingiushers installed, they were at least optional. Why? Cost. I can´t believe anyone would think of fexs as "uncool".
Certainly nobody who had the "fun" of spurios fire warnings that the old system created fairly often. (I had my fair share of them)
I have flown 3 bladed 200s/B200 and 4 bladed ones. The difference of behaviour when OEI is dramatic.

And the cost of re-equipping with AF is high, I remember a case were the B200 was bought in from the US with 3 blade props and couldn`t get certified in Germany and had to be re-equipped with AF and the Raisbeck props.
I can´t remember the exact numbers, but it was quite some bucks on top of the Raisbecks...

[JammedStab]

It's model dependant. The old 200 model King Airs with the three blade propellers came from the factory with auto feather as an option. From what I was told. It wasn't "cool " or "real men feather there own props". So initially the system was slow to be accepted to the flying population. Still today many older 200's are flying around with no autofeather fitted.

When Beechcraft built the B200 fitted with the new 4 blade Raisbeck props during the certification they discovered that the Vmca increased from 91KIAS to 108KIAS with a windmilling propellor. So a failed autofeather system on the 4 blade versions is a "no go" item and no provision is made in the MEL for you to dispatch with out auto feather.

From a Raisbeck King Air manual

AUTO FEATHERING SYSTEMS:
The Beech Propeller Autofeathering System must be installed, operational, and armed for takeoff, climb and approach.

CAUTION
With one-engine either at idle or inoperative, flaps up and propeller windmilling, VMCA may be as high as 108 KIAS.

As far as I remember, we had the 4 blade quiet turbofan propellers on our King Air 100 and no autofeather. No engine fire extinguishers either.

[mad2fly]

I know my reply is a little late but I haven't been on for a while.

Our company operates 2 King Airs. We do full run ups for first flight of the day and abbreviated for subsequent flights. As far as one poster put it about economy, in our company if it doesn't work and isn't an MEL item we don't go.

I was doing an interview ride with a potential new hire a while ago. He was typed in the aircraft and currently flying the type. It was obvious that he wasn't practiced with the run up procedures. He told us that the company he was with didn't want to slow the passengers down by doing them.

When asked if he did it on reposition flights he said no. This was even though he did reposition flights quite often.

The excuse of being pressed for time is pretty lame. I've always been told, if you're in a hurry you're dangerous. I would say that if you do it every day it only takes an extra 3 minutes at most. You just need to develop a flow that works for you then use the checklist as review.

While I can't say what stopped him from getting the job, I will say that it didn't help that he took the need to practice proper procedures so lightly.

I believe that it can be a slippery slope. Today you don't do the overspeed governor and rudder boost, primary governor and prop solenoid or autofeather tests. Then what's next? EFIS, Autopilot, deice anti-ice, ADC, TAWS, TCAS? Heck, why don't we just skip the pre-flight?

[Miles Magister]

M2F

Well said. A sensible and well presented post.

MM

[LASJayhawk]

Teldorserious I looked at the current IML discs for the 90 and 200 series King Airs.

There is no listing for autofeather on 90's before LJ-362. The F-90 show it as optional equipment on all S/N's, and they all had 4 bladed props.

The 200/ B200 disc show autofeather as optional equipment all the way to the ProLine 21 equipped aircraft BB-1834 and up with a few holes in the coverage.

It may have been a mandatory option with certain props...but it was an option.

His dudeness: My boss had to add autofeather to more than a few new aircraft, the salesmen would order the aircraft without a/f and the buyer would want it. His best recollection was that it cost $30,000 USD to add it...in 1978

[His dudeness]

His dudeness: My boss had to add autofeather to more than a few new aircraft, the salesmen would order the aircraft without a/f and the buyer would want it. His best recollection was that it cost $30,000 USD to add it...in 1978

Thanks. The episode I talked about was 1993ish...and in Germany, prices usually are higher here by 20-30%. I´m sure it was a pretty penny...