Instrument approaches for practice

[XiRho]

Hi guys,

Wondered if you could help me out with clarifying something. I've researched it but am struggling to find a definitive answer.

If one, as an instrument rated pilot, wishes to practice some instrument approaches somewhere, MUST he have a safety pilot / observer?

My memory is telling me that if its VMC VFR then yes, but is there a way round this, such as asking the unit to change to IFR for approaches, does that then change things?

Many thanks,

XiRho

[tmmorris]

This has been done to death on here before - try the search function. But broadly speaking, you are right; the issue is whether a VMC IFR procedure is a 'practice' approach. IFR in VMC OCAS you are of course responsible for see and avoid; it's up to you whether you think you can do this while conducting an IAP.

In real IMC once you went visual you would probably continue visually, heads up, but when doing an approach for practice you would probably remain on instruments even when visual. That being the case you are in danger of collision with VFR traffic unless you are in class D or above where separation is provided by the controller.

Tim

[2 sheds]

unless you are in class D or above where separation is provided by the controller
Not separation - traffic information, possibly in respect of traffic fairly close that you need to get in sight.

2 s

[Johnm]

Airspace Structure | Airspace | Operations and Safety (http://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?catid=2392)

[tmmorris]

Sorry, got the class C and D definitions mixed up there.

Tim

[Another_CFI]

From the ANO:-

Simulated instrument flight

23 (1) An aircraft shall not be flown in simulated instrument flight conditions unless the conditions in paragraph (2) are met.

(2) The conditions referred to in paragraph (1) are as follows:

(a) the aircraft is fitted with dual controls which are functioning properly;

(b) an additional pilot (in this rule called a 'safety pilot') is carried in a second control seat of the aircraft for the purpose of providing assistance to the pilot flying the aircraft; and

(c) if the safety pilot's field of vision is not adequate, both forwards and to each side of the aircraft, a third person, who is a competent observer, occupies a position in the aircraft from which his field of vision makes good the deficiencies in that of the safety pilot, and from which he can readily communicate with the safety pilot.

Practice instrument approaches

24 (1) An aircraft shall not carry out an instrument approach practice within the United Kingdom if it is flying in Visual Meteorological Conditions unless the conditions in paragraph (2) are met.

(2) The conditions referred to in paragraph (1) are as follows:

(a) the appropriate air traffic control unit has previously been informed that the flight is to be made for the purpose of instrument approach practice; and

(b) if the flight is not being carried out in simulated instrument flight conditions, a competent observer is carried in such a position in the aircraft that he has an adequate field of vision and can readily communicate with the pilot flying the aircraft.

[XiRho]

So, (Unless I'm getting lost here) there is no way in the UK to practice an ILS for example without at least taking an observer?

[Gertrude the Wombat]

So, (Unless I'm getting lost here) there is no way in the UK to practice an ILS for example without at least taking an observer?
That is the conclusion we usually come to when this question comes up. If you wait long enough someone will offer to rent you their teenage kid as an observer (if you don't have any bribable ones of your own).

[Level Attitude]

If you wait long enough someone will offer to rent you their teenage kid as
an observer (if you don't have any bribable ones of your own).
Gertrude
I'm sure the above is a light hearted comment but it does seem to suggest
that the requirement is not that important and any passenger enjoying the
view would suffice.

The requirement is not for an "observer" it is for a "competent observer" - which
I would take to mean someone who understands they are performing a safety
function, knows how to Look Out and knows what needs to be reported,
when and how, to the "eyes down" PIC.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Gertrude
I'm sure the above is a light hearted comment but it does seem to suggest
that the requirement is not that important and any passenger enjoying the
view would suffice.

The requirement is not for an "observer" it is for a "competent observer" - which I would take to mean someone who understands they are performing a safety function, knows how to Look Out and knows what needs to be reported, when and how, to the "eyes down" PIC.
Whilst some teenagers do seem to think that they're immortal, there are others who take a sensible grown-up attitude to safety: I'm only suggesting you take one of the latter type.

[riverrock83]

Whilst some teenagers do seem to think that they're immortal, there are others who take a sensible grown-up attitude to safety: I'm only suggesting you take one of the latter type.
However I'm sure it would cost more to bribe them - as they might get some repeat business...