Ryanair - Daily Express!

[111boy]

I don't know how they did it but the story in the Times this morning about a crosswind landing at Leeds Bradford said they did. Well done !

[PowerDragTrim]

I don't know about 'Well done' as much as 'Phew - we got away with that one!'
The pictures in the Daily Mail seemed to raise some points.
Downwind of centre line just before touchdown, no apparent attempt to 'kick straight' on touchdown, the wing lifting after touchdown - into wind aileron?
Brown pants all round on the flight deck!

[Liam_Mulholalnd]

Looks like some fun flying :D

Planes struggle to land in high winds as Britain is battered by gales of up to 72mph | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2311018/Planes-struggle-land-high-winds-Britain-battered-gales-72mph.html)

The pictures are about half way down the page.

[andre1990]

Pics for those interested: Planes struggle to land in high winds as Britain is battered by gales of up to 72mph | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2311018/Planes-struggle-land-high-winds-Britain-battered-gales-72mph.html)

More pictures if you scroll down the page of the aircraft straightened out, and other aircraft crabbing in the wind.

[Grenville Fortescue]

Several UK papers are reporting a crosswing landing at Huddersfield yesterday as if such thing were rarer than honest politicians.

See here: Planes struggle to land in high winds as Britain is battered by gales of up to 72mph | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2311018/Planes-struggle-land-high-winds-Britain-battered-gales-72mph.html)

I have two questions for those willing to educate:

1. I thought that on a crosswind landing you were meant to align the aircraft with the runway's centreline at the point shown in the first photograph below.

2. If, as it seems from the second photograph below, you touch the main gear down at an angle to the aircraft's direction of travel - just how much sideways force can the main struts of the undercarriage take?

Sensible replies gratefully welcome.

Thanks in advance.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/04/18/article-2311018-195E152B000005DC-547_634x341.jpg

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/04/18/article-2311018-195E11E7000005DC-383_634x286.jpg

[Capn Bloggs]

Children of the Magenta!! :}

[Capn Bloggs]

"Bit more rudder on the roundout next time, Hoskins..."

[hikoushi]

"....IT'S COMIN' RIGHT FOR US!!!"

[PigeonVoyageur]

111boy, are you sure? I know that Ryanair has made modifications to squeeze the maximum in, but 300!!??

[MANTHRUST]

Typical Ryan Air.
You books flight to Leeds and they take you to Huddersfield!

[bucket_and_spade]

Plus, even if it's not ideal, many Boeings are designed to land with quite a bit of crab still on. Not pretty though!

[Evanelpus]

Ryanair 738 with 300 passengers --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Blimey, has MOL taken some seat rows out??;)

This is the Press we are talking about here, how many more times do we have to be told that there is no way the truth is going to get in the way of a good story.

[Torque Tonight]

Grenville,

The 738 is cleared to land fully crabbed (ie no attempt to straighten up) up to the maximum crosswind limit. So in answer to your questions:

1. Not necesarily.
2. Enough.

Straightening up is prettier but landing with some crab on is desirable under certain circumstances. The aerolane will drag itself straight as soon as the main wheels touch the ground. Bear in mind also that as the autopilot has no rudder channel every crosswind autoland is crabbed on touchdown. Also, one doesn't fly a wing down, crossed controls approach in big jets.

[Agaricus bisporus]

Well, there's landing with some crab and then there's landing with no attempt to reduce extreme crab. IMHO that looks like an extreme amount and is frankly a clumsy if not downright brutal way to put an aircraft down even if it is certified for it. Did the guy have paralysys in his feet?

The Times reported this as an aircraft containing 300 pax! Wups!

[Capn Bloggs]

Also, one doesn't fly a wing down, crossed controls approach in big jets.
I wouldn't be so sure about that. After explaining the side-loads issue, my MD/Boeing FCOM says:

Below approximately 200 feet AGL, gradually apply rudder so as to
align the longitudinal axis (heading) of the airplane with the runway centerline. Control lateral drift by applying aileron into the wind. (the upwind wing will be lower), while continuing to apply opposite rudder to maintain fuselage alignment with the centerline of the
runway.
;)

This technique was introduced only in the last year or so.

Bear in mind also that as the autopilot has no rudder channel every crosswind autoland is crabbed on touchdown.
I assume the Autoland crosswind limits are way below maximum limit...

[Machdiamond]

FWIW telephoto lenses tend to distort images and one of the things that get distorted is the crab angle. It looks much higher than it actually was, far below limits and not worth all the fuss.

[Torque Tonight]

Bloggs, autoland crosswind limits are indeed lower but crabbed landings are possible up to the full crosswind limit. I'll amend what I said about the wing down technique to, the technique is generally not used on this type of aircraft and the FCTM specifically cautions about the risk of engine or flap strikes when using this technique in stronger crosswinds.

Agaricus, fairly exceptional wind conditions probably demand fairly 'assertive' flying.

[LiveryMan]

What is it about LBA and heavy cross wind landings?
I was on a BMI Regional EMB135 landing in heavy wind and rain at LBA.

Holy crap, I've never felt a plane wiggle and wobble so much. You could feel the tail swinging about with all the corrections the pilot was making. the wings were waving up and down at the same time. I was in the Starboard side over wing exit seat and saw how the rain was coming in at a perfect 90 degree angle to the wing leading edge.
When we hit the ground I actually slipped halfway out from under my seatbelt!

We had to have been close to the limits for the EMB135.

Thoroughly enjoyed it though :ok:

[Depone]

I don't know about 'Well done' as much as 'Phew - we got away with that one!'
The pictures in the Daily Mail seemed to raise some points.
Downwind of centre line just before touchdown, no apparent attempt to 'kick straight' on touchdown, the wing lifting after touchdown - into wind aileron?
Brown pants all round on the flight deck!

It would have been a pretty hairy approach but 'well done' is certainly appropriate. Those pics and the video don't support your criticism.

Considering the strong, gusty conditions, the wings are almost completely level, the touchdown is slightly off centreline but safe, and kicking the rudder isn't essential - just read the FCTM.

'Brown pants', yes, but a job well done. The 'Children of the magenta line' (probably a 10,000 hr Captain with experience of other airlines) clearly did well. Just look at the other aircraft and their approaches...

[coatimundi]

Surprised no-one has picked this one up yet:

Terror as plane lands sideways | World | News | Daily Express (http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/392974/Terror-as-plane-lands-sideways)

300 pax in a 737?? :ooh:

[lomapaseo]

Surprised no-one has picked this one up yet:

seen it, not news worthy

[Flyboy91]

"The Ryanair 737 was carrying 300 people from Limoges in France to Leeds Bradford, the highest altitude airport in Britain"

Another Accurate aviation report in the new headlines...

[fantom]

Pictures in the Telegraph this morning. Delivered at 07.30.

[DaveReidUK]

Surprised no-one has picked this one up yetYes, it would have been surprising if they hadn't.

http://www.pprune.org/spectators-balcony-spotters-corner/512898-ryanair-738-300-passengers.html

[cargosales]

Surprised no-one has picked this one up yet:

Terror as plane lands sideways | World | News | Daily Express (http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/392974/Terror-as-plane-lands-sideways)

300 pax in a 737?? :ooh:

The article is credited to one Paul Jeeves who must be an unpaid intern or somesuch. No professional journalist would come up with such complete and utter drivel, let alone fail to check such basic facts as aircraft capacity.

On the other hand, this is the Daily Express ... :ugh:

[fantom]

Also, plus, as well :

There's no rudder deflection. Don't they teach how to kick off drift these days?

[SAS-A321]

I have flown with Captains (Not in SAS), who rests their feet so heavily on the pedals, that I could not use the rudder to reduce the crab angle. :*

[Invicta DC4]

Sounds like a wet dream for MO'L!;)

[rogerg]

There's no rudder deflection. Don't they teach how to kick off drift these days?
A photo takes an instant image. How do you know that at that instant the rudder was not moving from one extreme to the other due to gusts. Answer, you have no idea. You comment was unwarranted.

[Agaricus bisporus]

TT, my point is that that landing demonstrated exactly the opposite, a lack of assertive flying.
Assertive flying would surely involve making the aeroplane do what you wanted it to do, ie getting on the centreline and kicking off at least some of the drift (but why not all of it - it isn't hard) instead of just accepting a horribly clumsy, inelegant and rather brutal off centreline landing with a big off-axis heading.

Not to mention avoiding much unwanted publicity by doing something that looks hair raising even though it isn't hazardous when you have an alternative.

[easy]

a) it certainly landed sideways
b) not sure my airbus could do that ;)

[Hotel Tango]

Surprised no-one has picked this one up yet:

Actually, your's is the third thread on the subject! :rolleyes:

[fantom]

Answer, you have no idea. You comment was unwarranted.


Thank you for your considered remarks.

I have lost count of the number of pilots I have 'base-trained' on the Airbus family. I think I know how to land an aircraft in a cross-wind and, it seems, know how to teach them.

On the day in question, there was a huge westerly over LBA (it's on a hill and gusts are not the issue) and people were having difficulty.

If you imagine, for a second, there would need any neutralising the rudder (for your 'gust') you are a dreamer. Neutralising the rudder at any time on the approach and after touch-down would result in the A/c departing the C/L pdq. The rudder would need a very great deal of application throughout.

QED

(By the way: you might like to re-visit your punctuation).

[Artie Fufkin]

How many times do we need to point out "children of the magenta" was a presentation about choosing an appropriate level of automation for your phase of flight. It had nothing to do with manual flying skills or experience levels.

Whilst the Ryanair may not have used a textbook technique here, I'd love to see some of the armchair critics take on the approach at Leeds on a day like that!:=

[uffington sb]

No rudder deflection. Probably because the photo is of a Ryanair 737 on the taxiyway to the east of the 05 threshold at STN!!

[Artie Fufkin]

On the day in question, there was a huge westerly over LBA (it's on a hill and gusts are not the issue) and people were having difficulty.

Neutralising the rudder at any time on the approach... would result in the A/c departing the C/L pdq

Do enlighten us...

[Teddy Robinson]

for interests sake, 80mph = 69.8 kts or thereabouts.
Anyone have a METAR for the approximate arrival time ... out of interest ?

[PURPLE PITOT]

I too am interested in this constant rudder deflection concept!

Please enlighten me.

[Depone]

Neutralising the rudder at any time on the approach and after touch-down would result in the A/c departing the C/L pdq. The rudder would need a very great deal of application throughout

And yet the photos show the aeroplane landing with level wings, de-crabbing on touchdown as per the Boeing FCTM, and then tracking the centreline. I don't quite understand your 'holier-than-thou' criticism Mr Yaeger.

There are many different ways to skin a cat. In this case the aeroplane landed safely in tricky conditions. Why the fuss?

[DX Wombat]

The winds up here yesterday were worse than the day before when several flights diverted elsewhere - one after eight laps of the hold. I didn't have internet access yesterday so wasn't able to see what the winds were. Someone I know was on that Ryanair flight and, knowing the media's embroidery skills, I asked him about it and was told that they were swung from side to side quite a bit and that there was an element of the passengers who screamed but he felt that it was understandable if they were of a highly nervous disposition. The flight landed at the first attempt.
The problem with Yeadon is that there is no longer the second runway which was very often the one facing into wind. It was a bad day when they got rid of it. The local topography is such that only rarely does 14/32 face into wind, there is usually a fair degree of crosswind. A friend who flew in and out of there on a regular basis said that he became so used to performing crosswind landings that he almost had to think hard to stop himself preparing for one when faced with a nice, normal into wind approach. ;)

[MPH]

Anybody know what the x-wind component was at time of landing. X-wind limit dry, on the 738W, I think, is 33kts? No last min. de-crab to be seen on the pic's. Still, no big deal. On a wet runway , maybe!!! What's the fuss?

[fireflybob]

I don't use the term "kick off the drift" - I prefer "straighten the aircraft (with runway) with appropriate rudder.

Of course as we all know from Effect of Controls the further effect of rudder is roll so as you apply rudder you are simultaneously applying into wind aileron to keep the wings level.

Hint - if you're going to make any mistakes err on the side of too much into wind aileron.

An on limits crosswind landing is an advanced flying manoeuvre and takes practice to do confidently and proficiently.

[T668BFJ]

Whats more the pictures used in both the Express and Daily mail are of a RYR plane landing in LBA nearly 2 years ago.
For one thing the landing aircraft in the mail is landing on RW32 we were using RW14 all day that day.

Anyway why let the facts get in the way of a good story.

[beardy]

It looks to me as though it de-crabs AFTER touchdown, not before. Landing with the aircraft not pointing along the centreline means that the undercarriage legs are being stressed in a direction that was not intended (i.e. not along the aircraft centreline) should they collapse I imagine there would be a fuss, hence the discussion.

[DX Wombat]

300 pax in a 737?? With the exception of the one male passenger, somebody with whom I am acquainted, perhaps the rest were all pregnant mums? :rolleyes:

[Denti]

@MPH dunno what crosswind limits for landing ryan air uses, only just what we use. Both on wet and dry runways for landing the allowed crossind limit for our 800W/700W is 40kts, 20 on standing water, 35 on not melting snow and 17 on not melting ice. Take off limits are different and make indeed a differentiation between winglets or no winglets (34kts with, 36 without), those are driven my Vmcg concerns on narrow runways.

The 737 is designed to be landed in crab up to the maximum crosswind landing, however it is not recommended on dry runways as the chance on leaving the runway is pretty high. The autopilot does have a rudder channel, most companies didn't buy the required actuator though and therefore have to live with lower crosswind limits, still only 25kts on those with the rudder actuator.

[A and C]

Back in my days with XL I landed at Luton in a very blustery crosswind, it was a normal Boeing landing with quite a lot of drift to kick off but otherwise unremarkable.

Three hours later the phone rang and it was one of the directors who asked me if there had been a problem with the landing, apparently the daughter ( a lawyer) of two elderly Passengers had called accusing the airline of all sorts of malpractice and endangering her parents ( one who of course had the mandatory heart condition).

I put the journalists and lawyers in the same box.........those who won't let the truth get in the way of making a quick buck !

[Phileas Fogg]

If it wasn't Ryanair it would reach the newspapers.

How about "The World's Favourite Airline" at LBA, did Ryanair achieve what the "World's Favourite" achieved at LBA?

http://images3.jetphotos.net/img/2/0/9/4/92647_1199384490.jpg

[DC-10-COL]

Sensationalist Tabloid ClapTrap! If it hadn`t been Ryanair, it wouldn`t be in the news! Been in way more sideways approaches and landings, mind casts back to Sumburgh in Shetland in the 90`s, SD3-60, sat under the wing looking along the wing at the runway - awesome, most other passengers were more alarmed. You haven`t flown till you`ve crosswind landed! ;)

[washingtondave]

Even the Sunday Telegraph has got in on the act. In it's column "The Week That Was" it features a picture of what is clearly a Dash 800 turboprop with caption "Crab landing: a Ryanair plane is blown off course by strong winds as it lands - safely - at Leeds Bradford Airport on Wednesday". Now I always understood that Ryanair was an all Boeing fleet. Lazy journalism at its best.