TR and 500hours, still looking for a job???

[a320--]

Has anyone actually done the TR and Line Training with 500 hours and NEVER got a job afterwards? There seems to be new LT programs popping up everyday from different agencies and airlines. P2F is far from being on the way out!!

I appreciate people commenting on who was successful securing a Pilot job after Line Training as well as people who weren't successful in securing a job after LT.


Thanks!

[a320--]

300+ views, I guess people who done the P2F are happily flying today and probably not even bothered with Pprune these days......I wonder

[pilotchute]

You will generally find people don't like to admit to spending another 50k on top of what they already spent for a CPL only to still be jobless.

People on here will talk about a guy that knows a guy that did P2f blah blah who is now flying the space shuttle and he says to do it.

Remember there are hundreds of typed and experienced drivers out there who are jobless. 500 on type just gets your CV through to be stacked with the 300 other CV's they have. It's just to filter out people. It isn't a guarentee.

[a320--]

Thanks for your comment pilotchute. I'm hoping someone will either comment here or PM me who has experienced Line Training.

Some airlines are taking guys with 250 on type these days.

[OutsideCAS]

The good news is that although the P2F schemes are many in number, the number of airlines willing to recruit people from this route is now dwindling in number due in general to unknown quality of output from these schemes. 500hrs on type these days means pretty much zip, so not worth exploring IMHO.

[a320--]

Thanks again for your comments!

@ Ecamsurprise.... yeah Wizzair is one of the airlines, the pay is rubbish but you will have your ATPL unfrozen within 12 months then the world is your oyster. I know 500 hours wont guarantee a job but it will guarantee an interview. I'm 27 and if i go instructing for a couple of years the airlines might not want me when I'm 30+ and have 2000 piston hours. I know one European budget carrier that wont hire 30+ year old guys.

@ OutsideCAS....Are the number of airlines willing to recruit people with 500 on type dwindling? Maybe in Europe but Asia have lots of orders for new aircraft for expansion more than replacement. Also I know when I contacted a UK budget carrier a few months ago they were willing to assess me with 280 hours on type when she asked the DFO. I have 0 on type btw and 280 total.

Instruct or Line Train? decisions...decisions....

[TheBigD]

No dilemma there. INSTRUCT.
50K to get 500 hours on type? Not gonna get you anywhere. It's all a numbers game in aviation: supply and demand. Tons of guys out there with plenty of time on type that you'll be competing against. Instruct, save your money, have fun, you'll learn so much more about yourself as a pilot. And trust me you will get to where you want to go via the instructing route. It will take a couple of years but when hiring starts you will be well ahead of fresh CPL holder with 250 hours TT. And when you are instructing: NETWORK, NETWORK, NETWORK.
Good luck!

[TheBigD]

And flying as an FO for 1500-2000/month pays the bills when you have to service a loan of 100K pounds? I'd rather take my chances via the FI route.

[OutsideCAS]

a320.....yes thankfully the numbers are dwindling in Europe, the problem with paying for those 500hrs (apart from cost to the buyer!) is that the recruitment process becomes diluted by the vendors desire to "sell" it's product, that way it allows a wildly varying spectrum of candidates to fill the RH seat. Not to say all are bad but it is now becoming common place to avoid this source as the end product has not generally been screened effectively and could be a false economy in the longer term. If the UK budget carrier will assess you then I would call them on it and push for the interview and assessment, I'm afraid I fear it won't happen as often what is said in a call to what happens in reality is at opposite ends. But try all the same and networking is always good and usually key in getting in. Leave the P2F bullsh@t in the gutter where it belongs, instruct, network and hone your skill set, maybe work in other related aviation roles, get experience - and avoid shister outfits like the Irish one at all costs.

[a320--]

I don't think anyone is going to advise Line Training to me on this are they? lol Even though anytime I ask people/friends outside of aviation what should I do after explaining instructing and line training advantages and disadvantages they all say I should do the Line Training, isn't that very interesting?

A lot of people who are against LT i think are people who don't have the money for Line Training, I could be wrong. But there have been some fair points mentioned above explaining why not to do it. To be honest I would love if all line training programs were stopped, it isn't fair but if i can scrape the money together for a loan i will be ultimately achieving my goal.

I wouldn't mind instructing, I think I would be good at it but its just that fear of being stuck on that road forever, i'll still owe a 100k in 5 years time because i'll be instructing and be 32. Where as if I done the LT, in 5 years time I could/should have 3000+ hours on an A320 and possibly going for Command and more importantly making steady repayments on my loan.

I really appreciate all your comments, it actually took quite a while before anyone replied to my initial thread and thanks! I wont be making a move until September anyway, gotta save some (a lot) of cash!

Still haven't heard from anyone who done the LT and they're still looking for a job either!!

[PURPLE PITOT]

If you don't want to hear the answer, why ask the question?

You need confirmation bias?

[pilotchute]

You borrowed 100k for pilot training in the middle of the worst financial slump since the 1930's? Now your gonna pay for LT because you wont be able to service your loan if you don't?

Do you realise how ridiculous that sounds! You wanna pay another 50k for LT so you might be able to pay back your loan cause instructing doesn't pay enough?

OMG

[Torque Tonight]

So you ask an aviation specific question to a bunch of people outside aviation and a bunch of people inside aviation and you are inclined to follow the advice of those outside aviation (because it's the answer you want to hear).

Riiiight?

500 hrs on type is pretty worthless to be honest. People with 3000hrs on type don't fancy their chances in the jobs market right now. Don't pay for a rating unless their is a rock solid job offer attached to it. And that means contracts, in writing, not just promises.

[a320--]

Nice to hear from you guys, I hope ye're well!

@Pilotchute...just to be specific yes I have a loan but it's not from a financial institution and i'm not required to make weekly/monthly payments until I have a job. So if I was to do LT I would then be borrowing the money from the Bank myself.

@ Torque Tonight...sometimes it's important to ask an aviation related question to someone outside of aviation, it doesn't mean you have to go with it but it gives you a balanced point of view, that goes for any other industry also.

I have 2 emails from airlines saying they will assess me when I have 400 on type and another when I have 300 on type. There are no other requirements, no total time, no pic, no multi just hours on type.

[a320--]

But instructing will give me much more knowledge of flying and hands on experience, so I may choose to instruct...

Thanks!

[OutsideCAS]

a320, it is to your credit that your asking this question. Being honest, if you ask anyone outside of aviation about your options I think it fair to say that the answers you will get to be of little use as aviation is such a specific area and what may apply in other employment arenas isn't the same sadly as your chosen one.

The reason no answers are coming in from previous customers of the P2F brigade may be because it just doesn't work ultimately - could be any number of reasons but they are all quiet and non-supportive at this moment in time. In fact opinion seems firmly against so far yes?.

It may not be quite what you wanted to hear (all have desires to jump on that first jet and fly and that is quite understandable) but all you will do is accrue greater debt and 500hrs on type that isn't really recognised as much value in the real world today and in the future. If the airlines you mention are really serious about taking you with 300/400hrs on type then great but I doubt they will actually come up with the goods necessarily when it comes to employment time - could always phone them as a fictious person with the experience, see what happens :E okay, may be not but you get what i'm saying yes?

[glag]

The image need no comment...

http://s11.postimg.org/kwz9goen7/pyramid.jpg

[pilotchute]

a320,

outsideCAS has a very good point. In my part of the world many operators use these sort of tactics to get people out of their office or to stop calling them. I worked at a place that simply told each hopeful that if they had "XXX" more hours or a "XXX" rating they would get a shot. This was complete nonsense as most of the time we weren't hiring and even then what we told them still wasn't enough.

There is a DHC 8 operator that will interview you with a fATPL, 250TT and 100 command. Only a very small amount of guys with that minimum get in. The average is around 1000TT and a bit of multi or SE Turbine to get an offer.

I'm told the very low time guys struggle in the sim. As soon as you load them up a bit it goes pear shaped.

[FlyHome]

Well from my point of view - I have around 230 hours on the A320, luckily I didn't pay for them but unfortunately the company went bust. I have been researching the options and it seems everything I come across, once you sift through the initial BS, is a p2f scheme. I honestly cannot believe anyone deals with these companies - they are all so dodgy and to give them large amounts of money is nothing short of madness. You have no guarantees, no idea when you will start, how long it will take and most importantly no clue as to the standard that this company will train you too - If it's bad what reputable airline will want to take you on? Rather than bashing those who do p2f, I have to say in my position I know exactly what they all feel - this is the quickest and most efficient way to get into the airlines.. however I really fear it's not... In fact I'm sure of it. Its a desperate situation for low hour guys who have invested so much into flying and it is very hard to accept the reality of the situation. But the reality is that there is a miniscule amount of jobs going for low hour guys and 500 hours on type from some dodgy operator isn't going to help - you may get lucky but do you want to risk it?

I have accepted the situation, have just got a job as an instructor, and am starting my FI course next week. I can't wait to do it, to improve my flying skills, build my hours, enjoy the teaching and climb my way back up the ladder. I am sure things will improve one day and in the meantime don't miss out on all the other great things aviation has to offer... If you start at 20 and retire at 65 that's 45 years in an airliner - honestly what is the rush?

[IXUXU]

230 hours and then the airline went bankrupt....:hmm:

[FlyHome]

No you're right - I thought I'd pay for exactly 230 hours just to see if it got me anywhere.... :ugh:

[RedBullGaveMeWings]

Maybe IXUXU has a story to share with us?:)

[IXUXU]

FlyHome:

don´t know, did you?

RedBull:

I lost my job once cause those p2f guys....and I´ve seen many of them telling the whole world how they were hired by an almost-bankrupted airline....
Which makes sense...cause, as we all know, those are the airlines which hire the most....just to help someone before close the door, forever.

[FlyHome]

IXUXU,

It's pretty annoying when people jump to conclusions they know absolutely nothing about - Quite frankly, it's been a tough losing a job and I've got better things to do with my time then try to prove to bitter idiots where and how I got the job or why the company went t*ts up. You draw your own conclusions.

Originally I wanted to post on this thread to share my experience and to offer my experience that a few A320 hours are not worth it - they wont get you far and it's better to go off and try your best to find something else. Whether it was p2f or not my point is still valid.

[a320--]

Good idea OutsideCAS!

Flyhome....Hard luck on the airlines going bust! if you want to continue flying the A320 you should try Asia if your interested or that Hungarian Budget Airline. At least you didnt have to pay for these hours, that's a huge advantage.

[cgwhitemonk11]

Let me just clarify this from someone who has plenty of experience with these shysters.

I have an A320 rating with no hours on type. Worst decision I ever made over 3 years ago.

I made a mistake and have since refused to take the line training route. At one point I saved up 20K and in desperation was considering it but literally the price went from 20K to 45K OVERNIGHT, final straw for me and have never looked back.

I used my cash to support me through a :mad: paying parachute job, and now I fly RHS in a twin otter, type paid for, salary from day one and in a couple of months i'll pass 1000TT. In a few years I'll hopefully have the 2000tt that mean i can start knocking on the door of a good airline like Monarch.


For comparison,

4 friends who did the line training, which is allegedly supposed to take 6-7 months.

18 months later none are finished.

3 are in Turkey, they hate it, the airline treats them like :mad: and they fly with some dodgy old military captains who on one occasion didn't recognize the plane was overspeeding, the FO had to take control.

1 is in Congo, he seems to be enjoying it but seriously, fancy paying someone 50k to move to the Congo? :=

I don't have any A320 hrs but long term I know I'm better off than the lot of them, I hope my experience sheds some light for you.

[Eastern_Skyjets]

The job market is terrible all over the world right now, a cadetship with ongoing employment is worth considering, but 500 hours alone?? No way it's not enough in all honesty 3000 hours is the new 1500 hours

One positive you could take from line training is a much better understanding of what daily life is like as an airline pilot (and trust me it's not what you think it will be like) and a much better understanding of the A320

Another point to consider is if there is a hiring boom in the near future the 500 hours would put you in good stead, but don't expect to be owed an airline job just for completing the line training.

I personally think type ratings on unusual aircrafts give you a better chance of employment as everyone has a 737 or A320 rating, I'm talking 747 classic, 767, MD11 they are all available at pan am for around 10k

Not saying this will get you in but for 1000 A320 applications you properly have 10 747 classic applications.

[joblooker]

easterskyjet,

having a md 11 or 747 rating won't give you more chance. market is over saturated with pilots and will stay like this for years to come.

unemployment continue to raise in Europe and it won't change in 2 years . i think in 5 years, aviation will not be in a better position as fuel and misery increase.

I have my self a 320 rating that I started years ago in an airline, and did many back seat in the cockpit during my rating. company went bust a few weeks later and many pilots lost their job included me.

I paid for my type rating with a job promise, and I realize sadly too late , it worths absolutely nothing. a 320 rating worths nothing and a promise is just a promise. not a contract.


here some facts:

nobody on earth is going to give you a job and pay you when thousand of guys are ready to pay to work.

having a type rating plus hours don't give you more chances. having money in your bank account make you feel better than the poor pilot with his 500h and no job.

there is absolutely no guaranty you keep your job when guys are knocking on doors with bags of money to give to your boss.

500h line training doesn't really exist. it s just a new invention from airlines to take your money. when you move of airline, you need to redo the line training. there is no license for line training... your line training worth nothing. you get the hours but nobody give a toss about your line training you did in Africa or else...

go on a :mad: airline, give them your money, come back in Europe and try to look for a job when the airline where you did the line training is black listed...
who want hire a pilot who don't want to use a check list or don't respect sop or minimum fuel or take extra weight by lying and sitting the system(many pilots do that and you will be forced to lie too if you want fly your 500h)

your line training may end your life too.

contract in airlines are crap. it s all in their interest, nothing in yours...
pretty much like "if you are sick or if we kick you out, you pay us 1 million dollars and you don't go work in aviation the rest of your life"

Asian airlines will not give you a job unless you are Asian. many Asian pilots are like us sitting at home... why? because Asian countries have trained many pilots, and there is less job than pilots...

instructor don't make any money, except maybe in summer, salary are usually low and airlines don't care of your 2000 or 3000h single engine.

the only way to get a good job in aviation is to know someone, network, net work, met work...

instead to pay thousand in line training and type rating. better to get friends in the airline management.


and to finish, i know guys who have paid for line training they got nothing. and i know guy who don't pay and fly now for national airlines.

my advice to all of you: keep your money, and do something else than just dreaming to play with planes because at the end, this aviation is a kid game... we want play the pilot and have fun. this is why in a normal job people don't work if no pay, because in a normal job you work your but all day long for money to buy your food and pay your rent.

would be better for you to invest In a nice computer with a nice graphic card and play some flight simulators... or build you flight simulator.

in 4 words: become a man and stop to dream.

[FlyHome]

Couldn't agree with cgwhitemonk11 more.. You will be in a better position for sure. Never mind about the a320 rating, you've acknowledged your mistake and are rectifying it. Since I'm guessing you paid for it hopefully try to keep it current as you never know..

[Eastern_Skyjets]

Yes without base training, and for sure it's virtually impossible to be hired I was just saying I would have better odds statistically in terms of applications actually being read by HR.

Just one point for the op, if you go ahead with the LT you will need to factor in a budget for living expenses and contingencies.

If you don't have much cash I would say avoid this all together.

Turbo props are just as hard to get on to as well so the chap that is flying the otter is doing very well IMHO

Aviation is a terrible place, full of disappointment, heart ache and frustration unfortunately most feel they have invested too much money and time to just walk away and will waste the rest of there lives chasing something that quite frankly is not that exciting.

[a320--]

If prices go up over night for something obviously it's in demand, when the price drops it's not so popular.

If I was to do line training I wouldn't be returning to Europe for a job, I would be going to Asia and the Middle East. Europe is in a spiral for the past few years and the schools are still pumping out the students like there's no tomorrow.

I know a guy in Congo too, no ILS, no Nav Aid, no Radar, no separation from ATC. It's pretty much like bush flying except in an A320. I'm not sure Airlines would consider that sort of flying tbh but who knows and I certainly wouldn't pay 50k to do that sort of flying in Congo.

Asia is crying out for expats especially Europeans as the license is of a higher standard, apparently....

[joblooker]

Asia is crying out for expats especially Europeans as the license is of a higher standard, apparently....

no they don't... pilots cry for a job... .. if it was the truth we would all go there already.
again it s just a rumor created by flight schools...
go there look by yourself, plenty of Asian guys with no job...

pilots are so naive... they all come out with their fresh type rating, no experience, 200h only and think they are god, think Asian countries will call them... ahah... won't happen.

[pilotchute]

a320,

I'm in Asia right now and I can tell you they are not screaming out for expats. They are short of Captains in China and Korea with a few vacancies in other countries.

They don't care where your licence is from as long as you have PIC on type and can pass the checks. Argentinians, Mexicans and Egyptians etc are here. Not just Europeans. There are plenty of Russian where I am also.

Expat Capts here are needed. Not wanted.

[cgwhitemonk11]

The thing here to remember is this, this guy has already decided to do the line training in his head and nothing we say or anyone else says is going to change that, they simply come on here to justify their decision.

I've seen 10 threads like this before.

You talk about the demand and the fact that schools keep pumping out these ratings? You are absolutely correct, but does that not set the alarm bells ringing? All these A320 rated guys out there and nobody ever comes on saying yeah 'Go for it pal, best decision I ever made!'

It should worry us that these schools are so good at fooling people and that pilots are so naive.

For every 10 A320 ratings not done directly through an airline, I'm gonna guess 7 are Indians who go back to their home country and tell everyone they are now jet pilots, and of the other 3... 2 regret their decision and the other has gone ahead with line training.... and regrets their decision.

My final point is this, none of those who go ahead with the line training actually realize how much money 50K actually is or how long it will take to earn that back, imagine paying all that to come home to a flexi-crew contract? :ugh:

Any Easy guys here care to estimate how long it would take a new FO to save up 50K?

[a320--]

I haven't made up my mind, that is why I started this discussion on Pprune. If I made my decision I wouldnt be here but thanks for that.

In Asia they are short FO's with at least 250 on type for some airlines and others 500 on type. If you do a bit of research you would see for yourself. I'm not getting my research from schools, I'm getting info directly from Airlines. I know what FTO's are like trying to sell you a dream and learned their tactics from day one when I did my PPL.

If I was to do Line Training, I wouldnt be returning to Europe as I said above, I would happily work in Asia for a few years.

And if I didnt calculate loan repayments, term of the loan, interest and living costs for the time of the line training that would be very very bad planning on my side. But thanks again!

Still haven't heard from anyone who done the line training and is unemployed. I mean would it hurt them to drop a line here, it's a fairly anonymous site!

[Mr-P]

To the OP I will offer you my experience of these types of programs together with a little piece of opinion (sorry I know you didn't ask for it but hey).

First of all I do not like PTF, I refuse to be any part of it and think it is totally immoral. I know two people that embarked on the Lionair/Eaglejet TR and Line Training program a few years back. My understanding is that both signed up for 500hrs/12 months. Both flew well in excess of 500hrs, in fact nearly 1000 each. Both were offered longer contracts after 12 months and both declined.

Now to answer your original question. Both are now flying 737's back here in Europe. Both enjoying their work and both earning what they consider good money (maybe not by historical standards). To make matters worse (for non PTF'ers) for one of them if they continue as they are then could be eligible for an upgrade by winter 2014!

I on the other hand who, as mentioned before, refuse to be any part of such antics am still looking for that first break 4 years later! Some on here will congratulate me for taking that stance and view however I am fast reaching an age that I will simply never get into a commercial job whilst others that are ruthless and go down the PTF route succeed(?). Another point which I believe has been mentioned, no company gives two hoots how you got the hours or who with, black listed or not makes absolutely no difference. Both the people I know are with reputable airlines which some will say would never hire PTF'ers, absolute tosh!

That's my 2 pence worth and consider it how you wish. Again tho' just to finish off I will again reiterate that I think these programs are bad and will only contribute to the race to the bottom.

Best of luck whatever you choose.

[pilotchute]

Mr P,

I know your pain. I had nearly 3 years to wait for my first break. I wont do the old don't give up thing cause I am sure you don't want sympathy.

The two people you know might well have got jobs without paying to fly. You just don't know. I know people on P2f programs right now and I would say that I wouldn't hire three quarters of them if I was a CP.

I beg to differ on your thoughts that companies don't care about where the hours come from. I cant speak for Europe but I will tell you alot of companies on the other side here care alot about where you have flown. Korean Air and the Japanese carriers simply wont recognise hours from some airlines. Vietnam Airlines got burnt by a guy who had flown for Batavia and his first landing with VA nearly ended in tears.
There is one airline in Asia that ask 250 on type and that is Citilink. All the rest ask 500 and that is included into the 1500 hour ATPL requiremnt. Will you have 1500TT and an ATPL after your 500LT?

That is the minimum to apply. Its not a got 500 on type guarantee of a job.

[joblooker]

guys go for it because they are desperate and have no other solution than paying to play the pilot.

this is what a friend told me, this job make us desperate, to a certain point you should land on earth and see what you want at the end.

what piss me off it s the guy who have no money left, then get money from their country (free money), money paid by us who go work everyday in a normal job.

why should I work my ass off everyday and pay tax to pay unemployed pilots?
these pilots sit at home playing Nintendo now...
tell me?

you are robbing us and we should hate you for that. in fact it should be prohibited and pilots should be put in jail... you steal us, you steal the society...
you are killing all of us and you are shooting a bullet In your feet. there is no guaranty they don't disappear with your $, you may not even see a cockpit or you will fly less than what they say if problems arise. and they will replace you as soon as they can. (no recourse because your contract will worth s... T, i bet there is no refund clause and you will finish in your mom's house watching TV all day long)

again NO REFUND... YOUR MONEY WILL BE GONE AND NO ONE WILL HELP YOU....

i m calling all recruiters who have some moral left to not to hire these kind of jaa traitors ...!!

[Piloto2011]

cgwhitemonk11, good job in securing that Twotter gig. Perseverance and patience will in many cases be rewarded eventually. Mind PMing me who with? I can only think of three operators in the UK.


A320,

As the monk pointed it out quite rightly, you are just looking for support on here; your decision to go P2F has long been made. While I can only advise against these programs, have a read of that Lion FO posting in the Bali crash thread. I believe it is page six or so. This is the kind of stuff you will have to put up with.

To give a balanced view though I have to say this: I recently had a chat with someone closely acquainted with an expat guy having gone through the Lion P2F gibberish. After a little over a year s/he has left to fly bigger Boeings in Asia, rating paid for. As much as I hate it myself, some of those folk somehow do succeed and climb the ladder.

If I were you though, I would first explore all other options before embarking on that route. It is a huuuge financial commitment and it had better work out.

I also learned about a friend's shocking story recently which shall serve for a cautionary tale to many. The magnificent spectacle taking place in western Europe. Two years after finishing flight training and with only few to no options available to the friend s/he got hired to fly a not too common type. Rating to be self-funded, around €20,000. Salary was about €24,000 take home. 24-month contract. Labor law in the country dictates for the employee to be given perm deal after that. Now I know that person is rather up to standard, in fact excels most of their peers, and a decent person, so I could not think of where s/he screwed up. So a few weeks before end of contract, s/he gets called in to have a chat with management. Boom, furloughed. Just like that. New guys have already been hired. True story.

Think looong and good before going down the route of self-funding a rating. You end up having very little say in your own fate.

[joblooker]

I think there is no end to the p2f programs as long our flight schools are popping out thousand of pilot every year...

this situation will stay like that until 2020.

I think UK will get out of Europe and other countries will leave as well.

[stacee jaxx]

a320

I say go pay. Who cares if A320 pilots are ten a penny? Someone with 500 on type and 750TT would look really attractive to a quality airline. You'll have a life of fantastic autopilot monitoring ahead coupled with a lifetime of being employed by an airline, subject to the spiraling terms and conditions that P2F deliver. Dull or what?!

Or you could instruct. Learn to fly properly without a computer. Meet amazing people and find yourself in a situation you never considered. It could be contract flying, Bizet work or something more esoteric. You'd be on good money, master of your destiny and not whining about pay blah blah, hours blah blah. You wouldn't be blithering on about seniority or time to command. Zzzzzz!

But maybe your sources outside aviation know something we all don't. All I do know is the airlines don't have much appeal anymore; there's a whole world of more rewarding flying out here.

Don't be a steady Eddie. Do something rewarding instead.

[a320--]

I have made my decision

[truckflyer]

Well good luck with whatever that will be!
However few things to consider, I had a friend who went with EJ / Lion - and his initial reports was not the best, still he did get the job with them as promised. However last 12 months, I have not heard anything from, despite several e-mails etc., from this I can probably draw few conclusions!

His time with them was a nightmare, but yes he was getting paid, and getting hours after his initial 500 hours!
Still, to get those hours, it will always take more time than expected. With my current company it has take me 7 months, and I am just coming up to 500 hours now. And my company flies relatively hard, and they let us be more than flap-operators!
Which is the norm over in Asia, a friend who flew for Sebu I think, was told on 90% of his flights, this is a captains flight! (Landings and Take-Off)
Fact was that the FO, with little experience had more knowledge about the aircraft than the local captain with thousands of hours of experience! Few captains even admitted this themselves!

So go to these P2F, and consider what you are actually getting!
500 hours on type, and less than 1000 - 1500 hours TT, will still not get you a job, neither in Europe or Asia!

Now some Asian countries are looking for captains, here is catch 22, stay with a company until you get command, and PIC, with this you will nearly be unemployable with any European / UK airline, as nearly none of them takes DEC!
So unless you plan to live for the rest of your life in Asia or as a travelling one-man band, you need to set your goals and plans for your career early! Get in with a company that will make you happy to work for, that will give you the things you want in life, and you need to go there as an FO, if not, well it gets harder, even if you have all the experience in the world.

We all have various goals what we want in life, I might have complained and bitched about UK for many years, but after being so "lucky" to live in other less privileged countries for some time, I would give an arm and a leg, to be able to get a job with a UK company today!

So back to your original question, 500 hours on type is just a goalpost, than most have either 1000 - 1500 hours TT - so in my opinion you will be stuck between somewhere in between a cadet and low experienced pilot, and your odds of getting a job will not improve enough to justify the cost of the TR and Line training. At least minimum before you do it, was that you have at least 500 - 1000 hours flying in advance, so at least tick those boxes for most applications!

[Desert Budgie]

I'm curious. I keep hearing how these pay2fly schemes are going to help folks get a job in Europe. Who in Europe HIRES (I mean hires and PAYS) direct entry type rated FOs at the moment. Must be able to count them on one hand.

You also have to consider some of the extra requirements when looking for work. There may be jobs in say Germany, Italy or France for example. However do you speak German, Italian or French? If not you will be unable to apply there.

Next thing if you do consider these pay2fly schemes, please be careful if you end up at some black listed carrier in the Far East. You may have some experience on the 737 or A320 but how many airlines in Europe are going to hire you after flying there? Someone commented about moving out of Europe and if you do that's it. You'll be an expat life. I have to agree, very difficult to move back. Also, to reiterate from a previous comment. 2000 at a foreign carrier isn't gonna get you any closer to a command in Europe than if you were a flight instructor. Your gonna come back after 3 or 4 years and if your fortunate enough to get another job, slip in at the bottom of the seniority pile.

I know 2 guys who went through pay2fly. For one guy it worked out. Did his time, was offered a job and has gained some good time over the last 5 years. However he desperately wants out, can't find another job. Had his application in with the middle eastern carriers for a year and still hasn't been short listed. And he works for a good European operator. Worth noting that out of 10 pay2fly guys on his course, he was one of two that actually got hired.

The other guy I know that did it didn't get anywhere. Thought it was the best thing ever 5 years ago. Flew around for free for a year or so, was let go when his contract was up and now he's living with his mum. And she is helping to cover his loan payments. 29 years old, no flying job in 4 years, barely covering the interest payments on his loan. What a disaster, feel so sorry for the guy. But he was warned...

Moral of the story. It's entirely up to you which path you take. Just please remember, you have been warned countless times on these forums. Please. Listen to us when we tell you for every 1 success story there are 9 people who it didn't work out for who are living with mum.

One more thing that is food for thought. If you pursue a pay2fly scheme, get released after 500 hours and can't find a job. You know why that is? Because of new guys paying to fly! It's a vicious circle isn't it!?!

[a320--]

Thanks for all your comments, they are much appreciated. After weighing up all the options, focusing on the advantages/disadvantages of both P2F and CFI I have decided to do an Instructors Rating and plan to Instruct for the next two years. During this time I'll be keeping a close eye on the market and job opportunities and hopefully I will never have to do a P2F program.

Cant wait to start my training in the coming months!

[RedBullGaveMeWings]

Good, but do your job with passion and not aim only to hour building.

[joblooker]

fi rating or pay to work is pretty much the same...
you don't make any money at the end.. since i stopped to fly I make more money than when I was flying and i pretty much do nothing all day long.

before all my money was gone in rating, hotels, doctors, test, interview... now i can see my bank account filling by itself like magic...

fi pay nothing except a little in summer but many people cancel last minutes. many days you sit in a school by doing nothing and you wonder why you have to do this...

[truckflyer]

Well to be fair, I know of 7 FI's, that all got jobs last year (2012) - yes they worked many years, I think the range was 2 - 5 years, but last year they all got jobs with various airlines. (Maybe one got job on biz.aircraft - but still it all gave them a step in the right direction)

But yes, money goes and goes!

[Desert Budgie]

FIs by no means make much money. But they are making money. At least you have an income and are learning (what I feel is important) good PIC skills. At my old operator, the guys we hired who got FO jobs straight out of school and were from the right seat of other multi crew operators often had better flying skills than the instructors we hired...Initially...

However these guys had no PIC time, and when it came time to upgrade, the former flight instructors outclassed them hands down. You may be able to teach guys straight out of flying school how to be good FOs. But it is difficult to teach someone how to be a PIC and be a good decision maker. That comes with experience and I believe that PIC time accumulated as a flight instructor is extremely beneficial down the line when it comes time to upgrade with the airlines.

[mikemorgan81]

Hello,

I've not posted here before, but I thought I would contribute my experiences. Like yourself, I have been tempted with the P2F schemes. It's especially tempting when you see ex coursemates sitting in the RH seat of a jet...buying a TR and time on type does work for some, but not all. I chose the FI route and I've not regretted it for a second. Yes the pay is rubbish, yes you get treated badly by (some) employers...but I actually love the flying I do - which judging by some posters on this site is quite a rare thing.

I work a second job so I avoid complete destitution and will probably take the first airline job which comes my way, but in the meantime I'm very happy to have my PIC hours tick over, have at least some income and more importantly become much better at what I do. I would be quite happy to continue down the instructor route as a career, but EASA has seen to that!

[stacee jaxx]

a320.

Correct answer! Well done.:ok: Now REALLY learn to fly!

[a320--]

Looking forward to it!

[TheBigD]

A320 - well done man. :ok:

Good choice. You will learn so much about yourself as a pilot by instructing. Sure the pay isn't great, but it is rewarding. It is so gratifying seeing your student solo, pass their checkride etc. You will feel great.

Plus you won't be in a lot of debt and you will be much more respected by future captains that you fly with when you get on that A320. And those PIC hours will slowly be adding up.

Also, try to get a part time job that will help with the bills. And the biggest thing NETWORK, NETWORK, NETWORK. Cause the guy coming through that door to get checked out in a 172, just might be a CP with some operator.

Good luck and again wise choice. Enjoy and keep us posted of your progress.:D

Cheers!

[a320--]

Thank you all! I have to say the decision wasn't easy and it took a lot of time to make up my mind. As already said above my instruction hours will go towards my command anyway and airlines will appreciate that I went instructing for a number of years.

I know there are thousands of people who are in the same position as me and have to make a similar decision also, I just hope this thread will help other Pilots make their decision.

Cheers!

[Propellers]

A320 airlines will not be thankful or appreciative of your time instructing!! infact they will just turn you away as they dont care about GA pilots

one way or another you are going to have to pay for TR and line training eventually, but if you want to waste 5 years instructing first thats up to you!

these guys on pprune are all anti pay for hours, dont get left behind just to please them!! screw them its your life mate

I am P2F pilot, literally done my CPL in 6 months, bought cheap TR and done P2F 500 hours on A320 and been flying ever since

honestly mate if you wanna please these old guys then take there advice, but if you want to get ahead and fly the big planes you need to do P2F its the only way mate trust me!

I literally got a job offer from another airline to fly A320 last week, but I am happy at my current place for now

anyway I speak the truth! its nothing to be proud of! its sucks that I had to pay but this is just how its done now

[a320--]

Propellers.....If I get 500 hours, I'll have 780 total time which limits me to just a few airlines. If I instruct for a year or two I will have an extra 1000 hours and will give me a far bigger range of airlines to apply for, some maybe even closer to home.

[Propellers]

yeah but your not looking at the bigger picture, its not just 500 hours, you will be asked to stay on and get even more time, you meet loads if contacts just being in the airline environment, just take the leap and it all falls in to place.

1000 hours in SEP sounds nice but you will still need hours in aircraft with MTOW in excess of 20 tons and how do you get that???P2F only way!!

you can work in europe easily, look at small planet, XL, Wizz they are all taking on pilots with 500 hours jet time.

anyways don't look at it as just 500 hours it turns in to so much more! trust me you will see!

[LastMinuteChanges]

Out of curiosity Propellors, how did you complete your Airbus TR? Was it a case of you purchased a TR and then started applying to airlines, or that an airline agreed to take you on, on the premise that you purchased a TR and Line Training with them?

[a320--]

Who did you do your line training with and was it recent? Pm me if you prefer

[Propellers]

Hermes airlines was 12 months ago

[a320--]

Propeller......You are the first and only pay to fly Pilot to finally comment on this thread. This is what I was originally looking for when I started this thread. So pay to fly is a success then?!

Funny your username is Lastminutechanges lol

[Propellers]

of course it works, the guys doing these programs are too busy with there flying to comment on your thread but I an happy to advise where I can.

sorry you have totally lost me with lastminutecganges, what do you mean?

[Propellers]

Sorry last minute, I did not see your post as it was in page 3, A320 i understand what you meant now.

I went to Miami straight out of flight school got the TR at the 2nd attempt and then applied for the line training.

[a320--]

Did you do PanAm's new JAA A320 TR ? Or did you get an FAA TR on an FAA license?

[Propellers]

yeah FAA then a conversion, go With JAA though much less hassle

just send hermes an email [email protected] and they will give you a list of company's selling there LT dont be affraid to call either +33 2117152030 with any quiries

Mainly european charters in summer and scheduled stuff from france,uk and scandinavia

good luck you sound like a good guy and i hope you can fly A320 and in time A330/A340

[Propellers]

just one more point, when you scroll through the forums of pprune you get a feeling of thinking the posts written are valid and gospel

however out in the field in airlines and even pan am you will be surprised at how little most of the people know about pprune

i thought everyone hates p2f but sone guys have never heard of it!! just saying the real world of aviation is sooooo different to the pprune world

[fulminn]

very different:ok: fortunately!

[a320--]

FAA Conversion? you need 500 on type to convert foreign type rating. How did you get 500 hours on A320? Do Hermes take FAA CPL's with A320TR??

I understand what you mean, I dont take everything on here as gospel I've been using other methods of getting advice on what to do and most say instruct some say pay to fly.

[Propellers]

na not a direct conversion i had to do more sim time in JAA sim etc, whole thing gets complicated just do the JAA from the off and don't start making work for yourself

enjoy your journey I guarantee that at some point you will want to give up when you reach this point contact me and i will bump you back up

as i say these company's are the saviour of the fresh CPL holders giving us a platform to move in to airlines and have a prosperous career god bless them for without them we would be working down the local co-op

don't instruct everyone is warned not to learn with grade 3 instructors, the only instructors getting work are the high up ones, i personally refused to learn with anyone except the chief pilot of my flight school

i will be honest though mate i am hated by pprune members, i have fast tracked myself to an A320 with very little effort, cheap TR and the gift of the gab, I'm your typical essex boy with wealthy family that own night clubs etc but thats just me, if people want to judge me i don't care i fly A320 and i am happy, i get paid and live life to the full

[pilotchute]

Propellers,

So in your world the only people good enough to fly big stuff are the ones with the means to pay for a type and line training. What about the guys that are at the limit financially and cant get anymore cash?

The fact that your family seem to have buckets of spare money is great for you but what about everyone else?

I don't think I would like to share a flight deck with you. I don't think we would have much to talk about.

[Propellers]

na I feel bad for the guys that cant afford the LT its not nice, but I also feel bad for the kids dying of malaria in africa, its life and god decides our fate

but there is nothing I can do about it, we all look after ourself these days ya know!

I would honestly say if you cant afford TR and LT don't even start learning to fly

[RedBullGaveMeWings]

I would honestly say if you cant afford TR and LT don't even start learning to fly
Because aviation is only Boeing or Airbus, right?:D

[fulminn]

"I would honestly say if you cant afford TR and LT don't even start learning to fly"

so basically you mean the only reason because you fly the 320 it's because you paid.
so yes you are just a monkey with money, you said this!:p:p:p

[Propellers]

yeah i ain't the quickest of cats and yes the only reason i am here is because of money!

and to redbull no its not just boeing or airbus but if thats the goal right out of flight school i would say LT & TR has to be factored in to the budget

I am damned if I ever "worked" my way up as instructor I would do more harm than good
my general aviation knowledge on the whole is poor I am thinking of going back to the basics to see if I understand the books more now I am a bit more experienced

[Bealzebub]

just one more point, when you scroll through the forums of PPRuNe you get a feeling of thinking the posts written are valid and gospel

No not always! It is funny how the same syntax and spelling errors often crop up, particularly when somebody registers a few usernames to lend support.

Propellers, aren't you simply a persona created by eastern_skyjets?

I would bet a tenner that you are!

[fulminn]

so propellers, you are stating you are a complete id**t, who learn something just during a paid TR and a paid LT about the a320 and that's it?:ok:

gooood pilot!

[Propellers]

i dunno what ur talkin bout beazlebum i only got the 1 account if you don't like what i write thats your problem not mine i used to go by the name learjet and got banned but thats bout it

[Bealzebub]

Oh come on.....You do!

Why resort to slang and poor spelling? You are normally quite proficient in this particular guise as this thread demonstrates. (http://www.pprune.org/interviews-jobs-sponsorship/515112-advice-new-female-pilot.html).

A lot of people come on these forums looking for good advice and help, which is hard enough to find at the best of times. Is it really fair to mislead them in this fashion?

[Propellers]

you r insane beazlebum!! i feel i am giving good advice to the op i mean have u tried getting a job in an airline with just cpl??? its not happening

if like me all u r intested in is flying the heavy iron u need tr plus lt ok that is my advice it worked for me take or leave it

[Bealzebub]

I think I have quite a good idea.

Do you need to know where to send the tenner to? :ooh:

[Propellers]

oh sherlock homes good ur good im also redbullgavemewings and slasher omg and several other users

god get a life i am just trying to help

you can send me the tenner

17 high st
romford
essex

if cheque payable to mr R Weaver

[Propellers]

mods if you see this i would like a title of pprune prince under my user name

these are my demands

[RedBullGaveMeWings]

Yeah, he wish he really was RDGMW:ok:

And Weaver!!! This guy's funny!!!:}

[a320--]

Instructing is the better route for now, for my future and will support my application for when I go for my command in years to come.

[Torque Tonight]

A320, I think this little episode has perfectly illustrated some of the idiots, sharks, schizophrenics and illiterates that inhabit the p2f business. I think you're making a much lower risk, safer and long-termist plan by instructing, rather than putting down 50k on speculative p2f and spinning the roulette wheel.

I particularly liked the comment 'P2F is the saviour of low hour pilots' or words to that effect. Saviour as in charging you 50 big ones for something that used to be free (to you) and then kicking you out on your ass when the money stops flowing from you to them. Real saviour. :=