The landing and judging height.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Some years ago I wrote an article about judging the height for landing here on Pprune.

A discussion in another thread has prompted me to retype the article as close as I can remember it.

From a stabilized approach ( stabilized angle of attack at a pre determined airspeed. ) you fly the airplane to your preselected flare point on the runway with or without power.

( With a light airplane the flare from the approach path to level with the landing surface should be started at approximately fifteen feet for a nose wheel airplane or a tail wheel airplane that you are planning to three point. )

During the final approach your center of sight line should be the point at which you plan to flare, for instance the runway numbers.

At the flare height you do two things, raise the nose to the level attitude and at the same time refocus the center of your sight line at a point ahead of you on the runway center line where apparent movement of the runway towards you ceases..... this will be about four to five hundred feet ahead of your present position depending on G.S. and your sight line above the runway.

This new sight line will give you the optimum angle to best judge not only your height but any deviation left or right of the center line, the picture you get now will allow you to see the far end of the runway as well as the runway closer in in your peripheral vision .

Do not fixate on this point of the runway ( The point where apparent movement of runway towards you ceases. ) use it as the center of your vision forward and you can use eye movement both further and closer in as a means of height judgement....

...Holding the airplane in the level attitude with power off results in a loss of airspeed and lift will decay, the airplane will sink towards the runway.... at one foot above the runway use the elevator to prevent the airplane from landing which will result in a proper nose up attitude at touch down.

That in a nut shell is a quick overview of how I teach height judgement for the landing.

[Flyingmac]

I'll try that in the Pitts at the weekend.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

I'll try that in the Pitts at the weekend.

You can see over the nose in your Pitts when you land it? :E

[Saab Dastard]

I think that this is the thread that Chuck was referring to:

http://www.pprune.org/private-flying/74587-judging-flare.html

SD

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Thanks SD:

Have you noticed how I am mellowing with age? :E

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

That's what I always did in the Chipmunk. And every other aeroplane I flew.

Wheeler landing similar except a 'slighter' flare so she wheels-on gently with no bounce, tail high, followed by firm positive forward stick to 'pin it on'. Followed by progressively more forward stick to hold the fuselage level as the speed decays (you need good feet as you slow!), until one runs out of elevator and the tailwheel lands of its own accord (unless you've got about 30 knots down the strip in which case the tail will stay up 'till you've stopped).

Yes, I know you can 'land' the tailwheel earlier than that, but that's not as much fun!

A good test of your 'feet' is high speed tail-up taxying. Great fun!

[Chuck Ellsworth]

A good test of your 'feet' is high speed tail-up taxying. Great fun!

Not only is it great fun but it it should be the very first part of tail wheel training when checking out pilots on a tail wheel airplane.

I do not take them flying until they can demonstrate complete control with the tail up on the runway......when there is light wind and traffic permits you can use the runway in both directions to save taxiing back to on the taxiway.

[Flyingmac]

I thought I'd heard it all. Seems not.:rolleyes:

[b2vulcan]

Chuck, thanks for re-posting and SD thanks for the link to the original post.

I am another PPL student who is having trouble with the last bit of the landing, I think it is judging the height to commence the flare and hold off.

I have read Chuck's posts in the original thread and will certainly try his exercises. He mentions a video he uses for teaching landing which I think would be a great teaching tool but I guess that was for use with the Airbus.

I have mentioned my height judging problems before and a number of posters have suggested asking my FI to fly along the runway at flare/hold off height so I can 'get the picture', sadly that hasn't happened but I'm sure it would help me.

As for 'it will just click' I'm still waiting despite over 100 landing attempts :sad:

[mad_jock]

b2 stop trying so hard and laugh at yourself.


Another one that was suggested by a rotary pilot was to get a stool or table and sit it in the middle of a road. Then Stand on it then sink your self down to the height that you will be at when landing. Then repeat.

This will give you the chance to see all the things which are happening in your vision without having loads of other things to think about.

[piperboy84]

This will give you the chance to see all the things which are happening in your vision without having loads of other things to think about.

Apart from that Eddie Stobbart truck that's about to run over your ass !!

[Chuck Ellsworth]

I thought I'd heard it all. Seems not.

The greatest problem a pilot will have when first starting to fly a tail wheel airplane is directional control on the ground, especially if they have a lot of time on nose wheel airplanes.

Therefore logic dictates one should get used to controlling direction on the runway before flying it.

[maxred]

I have read Chuck's posts in the original thread and will certainly try his exercises. He mentions a video he uses for teaching landing which I think would be a great teaching tool but I guess that was for use with the Airbus.

Please tell me this is a wind up:\:\

[Flyingmac]

The greatest problem a pilot will have when first starting to fly a tail wheel airplane is directional control on the ground, especially if they have a lot of time on nose wheel airplanes.

Therefore logic dictates one should get used to controlling direction on the runway before flying it.


Logic dictates that you land as close to a three pointer as you can, and get that stick back into your stomach pronto.

Playing around in ground-loop/nose-over country is not something I'd have a novice doing. Wheelers are best left to the experienced pilot.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Logic dictates that you land as close to a three pointer as you can, and get that stick back into your stomach pronto.

Only if you are doing a three point landing........

.....logic also dictates that once the airplane is on the ground you still have to control yaw......

.......my students have already been exposed to yaw control on the ground at both low and high speeds therefore direction control after touch down is not a new experience for them.



Playing around in ground-loop/nose-over country is not something I'd have a novice doing. Wheelers are best left to the experienced pilot.

I believe in teaching a pilot how to properly handle a tail wheel airplane and teach both three point and wheel landings and expect them to be equally proficient in both.


If they can not master both types of landings I will not sign them out as competent on tail wheel airplanes....period.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

If they can not master both types of landings I will not sign them out as competent on tail wheel airplanes....period.

That has to make sense - sometimes a 3-pointer is appropriate, sometimes a wheeler. And sometimes one just wants to ring the changes.

It's better for the stude to be taught wheelers and tail-up taxying by their instaructor rather that try to teach themselves to do it.

If you don't have the skill not to nose-over and not to let the aeroplane swap ends in a high speed tail-up taxy you shouldn't be signed up as competant on tailwheel aircraft.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

If you don't have the skill not to nose-over and not to let the aeroplane swap ends in a high speed tail-up taxy you shouldn't be signed up as competant on tailwheel aircraft.

Exactly:

One has to remember this is the private pilot forum and many here may not even be private pilots yet, so their vision of how to fly is badly blurred.

At the risk of offending some posters here it is my personal opinion that if you are not equally competent and at ease with both the three point landing and the wheel landing you have not finished learning how to fly tail wheel airplanes.

I sure would not turn you loose on any tail wheel airplane I owned or was responsible for.

[Flyingmac]

If you don't have the skill not to nose-over and not to let the aeroplane swap ends in a high speed tail-up taxy you shouldn't be signed up as competant on tailwheel aircraft.


I'll pass that on to the 3,000hr pilot who groundlooped in front of me last week.

I myself only reached 1,000 + hrs before chewing the grass with my prop.

There are those who have and those who have yet to.:=

[Chuck Ellsworth]

There are those who have and those who have yet to.

That is a truly frightening mindset, sort of like resigning yourself to failure regardless of reality.

For sure accidents can and do happen, however with the right mindset and proper initial training and recurrent training one can narrow the odds and live to a ripe old age without ever having had an accident.

Those who resist recurrent training are cheating themselves of the added value of upgrading their skills level and are more prone to wrecking aircraft.

[Pace]

At 1.3 times the stall its a doddle if you are accurate with the numbers.
Trim is also important so have the aircraft trimmed a fraction nose up meaning a slight forward pressure on the column to maintain the glide.
It is also important to get a feel for the aircraft adding or removing power!
A lot is a lack of confidence near the ground and I cannot stress enough that instructors should teach landing by not landing.
Fly the aircraft along the runway at 2 feet if you want and do not land then reduce power and add a bit of back pressure soon the aircraft will want to descend add more back pressure while trying not to land.
Kiss the runway and there you go!
No big deal piece of cake ;)
A lot is in the head not hands!
Be confident operating near the ground, adding or removing power and pitch with a good feel for whats going on.
Do not be a panic stricken passenger to the aircraft hoping it will work out!
Control the aircraft not the aircraft controlling you!

Pace

[Chuck Ellsworth]

I can not understand why all light training aircraft do not have one of these.


Home | Alpha Systems - AOA (http://www.alphasystemsaoa.com/)

I have one installed in my Cub rebuild project to make it easier to teach attitude flying.

[piperboy84]

CE

Quote:
At the risk of offending some posters here it is my personal opinion that if you are not equally competent and at ease with both the three point landing and the wheel landing you have not finished learning how to fly tail wheel airplanes.

Understood, but here is the quandary I have, I am a novice TD pilot (200hrs), the aircraft I have the manufacturer, in fact the guy that owns the company and builds them, advised me during the purchase test flight not to do wheeler landings nor high speed taxi in this plane. I had to demonstrate 1 wheeler landing during my 15 hour dual for insurance and TD endorsement. Where I live TD instructors are like hens teeth, especially ones with FAA authority to sign my logbook, so much so that when I had to get 15 hours in make and model for insurance and a FAA TD endorsement I went to the US for it.

So the net result is a guy sitting here in Scotland that flies the hell out of his TD always doing 3 pointers, does not practice wheelers nor high speed taxi, but would love to do them purely from a control and learning point of view (and not for xwinds etc) but due to the fear of arsing it up and wrecking the plane does not. Although on several approaches I contemplated a wheeler then decided at the last minute against it and 3 pointed it in.

With the above in mind is the safest solution to learning on my own to perhaps when doing take off’s from long tar runways, raise the tail and not apply full power then run along for a thousand feet or so balancing before going to full power then take off normally. I am loathe to practice balancing on 2 wheels on landing with the slowing speed offering a bigger chance of ground looping it.

[maxred]

Piper boy

Have sent a PM re your last post.

Always remember, this is an InTerNet forum, with a vast range of opinions, views, and some downright whacky ideas.

CE has some good ideas.:)

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Looking at 'the picture' is fine for landing. But for aerobatics I'd have gladly chucked out half the cockpit instruments in exchange for an AoA indicator in the Chippy and the Yak.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

How's about just looking forward out of the windscreen.

I am trying to reply to the above in a manner that does not start this thread off in the wrong direction.

So let me answer it in its most simple context.

It is impossible to judge angle of attack by just looking forward out of the windscreen.

For those of you not familiar with the subject of angle of attack and angle of attack indicators and their value in staying within the safe envelope of flight I urge you to study the subject.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

CE


At the risk of offending some posters here it is my personal opinion that if you are not equally competent and at ease with both the three point landing and the wheel landing you have not finished learning how to fly tail wheel airplanes.

Piperboy 84, when training pilots to be competent in tail wheel airplanes the training is focused on teaching them how to safely fly any tail wheel airplane they may fly in the future.

In that I personally have never flown a tail wheel airplane that could not be safely wheel landed my training program is set up for most of the certified aircraft available.

I have flown a few that were quite tricky to three point safely and were far easier to wheel land, but never ran across one that could not be wheel landed.


but here is the quandary I have, I am a novice TD pilot (200hrs), the aircraft I have the manufacturer, in fact the guy that owns the company and builds them, advised me during the purchase test flight not to do wheeler landings nor high speed taxi in this plane.

Was this information printed in the aircraft handling manual as a caution, or restriction?

And if so for what reason?

[Flyingmac]

There are some types where wheelers are't recommended. Maule being one. There are types where the wheeler is the way to go, usually to avoid tail blanking. The DC3 for example.

If you're going into a short grass strip it's not a good idea to waste runway on a wheeler, though you might prefer to wheel or 2 point the same aircraft onto tarmac in a strong / xwind.

Horses for courses really. This, as far as I know, isn't an approved technique. Dangerous Landing in a Luscombe - YouTube




There's always this if you can't make your mind up. Photograph of Aircraft G-NACA (http://www.caa.co.uk/applicationmodules/ginfo/ginfo_photo.aspx?regmark=G-NACA&imgname=G-NACA001&imgtype=JPG)

[Chuck Ellsworth]

That video is an excellent example to illustrate where a wheel landing would have given better control at touch down.


There are types where the wheeler is the way to go, usually to avoid tail blanking. The DC3 for example.

The DC3 will exhibit tail blanking in a three point landing?

Where did you get that information?

[Flyingmac]

The DC3 will exhibit tail blanking in a three point landing?

Where did you get that information


I knew you'd bite at that one.:ok:

[Chuck Ellsworth]

I knew you'd bite at that one.

I gather this conversation is aimed at trying to get at each other for one up-man ship?

Once again thanks for posting that video that demonstrates so well when a wheel landing would have been the better choice.

[S-Works]

I fly a twin turbine taildragger for a living and we never 3 point it. Its always landed flat and then we push forward on the yoke against the beta to lower the tail to the ground.

High speed tail up taxiing for us is the norm on long runways or we would be blocking them for other traffic for quite some time.

I don't teach the tail up taxi as a separate exercise, it is just the first part of the landing as touch and goes. I have trained enough people to fly our aircraft over the years to know it works well that way. We also have the issue that we don't really have long enough runways in the UK/Europe that are quiet enough to carry out practice going up and down a runway taxiing.

[foxmoth]

Just picked up on this thread, I must say as an instructor teaching Tailwheel I am amazed at how many pilots who have been "trained" on Tailwheel that have not been taught wheeler landings, I then found Tailwheel "instructors" who did not know the technique, if the instructors do not know how to do it, what chance for the students????:ugh:

[piperboy84]

I think the reason that the wheeler is just barely taught/covered is fear on the instructors behalf of the student duffing the prop into the ground, with all the insurance and liability and all the legal nonsense that goes on now. I know when I did my TD checkride I got the distinct feeling the instructor was nervous on final (it was his personal plane) and as soon as I completed the first and only wheeler with him having his hands hovering a few millimetres from the yoke, he announced " that's great" and that was the beginning and end of the wheeler portion of the sign off. I knew it was not a great landing and felt he did also, in fact it was just pure luck that I pulled it off.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Actually, on most aeroplanes, you have to reach an insane tail-high attitude to get a prop strike (there are exceptions and of course rough strips and bouncy u/c contribute). The bigger danger, perhaps, is losing directional control at the higher speed of a wheeler.

I flew tailwheel aeroplanes for well over 30 years, mostly short aeros flights and into short strips, so many landings per hour in all sorts of winds, runway gradients and surfaces, and approach / climbout obstructions. I've yet to groundloop. And as I haven't flown for many months now, and probably won't again, I might have got away with it!

[Chuck Ellsworth]

This conversation should be had more often among pilots.

The fear of teaching wheel landings is astonishing, the wheel landing is the best method of maintaining control during difficult x/wind landings and if for no other reason than safety, teaching proper wheel landings is more important than teaching the three point landing......if you are only going to teach one method.

To measure the flying ability of flight instructors in the training industry today asking every instructor if they can teach the wheel landing in basic tail wheel aircraft will bring some interesting statistics......

........maybe 10% of today's flight instructors have that basic flying skill?

Makes one wonder what other skills they lack doesn't it? :ugh:

If you are concerned your prop may be in danger of hitting the ground doing wheel landings just put the prop in the vertical position and raise the tail until it touches the ground........you may be surprised at how high you have to raise the tail in most small tail wheel airplanes.

[piperboy84]

If you are concerned your prop may be in danger of hitting the ground doing wheel landings just put the prop in the vertical position and raise the tail until it touches the ground........you may be surprised at how high you have to raise the tail in most small tail wheel airplanes

I am not concerned about my prop hitting the ground, I had my plane on a stand to fix the tailwheel and seen how much it would take for a prop strike especially with my tundra tyres, I suspect Shaggy Sheep may be right it could be a case of instructors fearing the student losing directional control also.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

I flew tailwheel aeroplanes for well over 30 years, mostly short aeros flights and into short strips, so many landings per hour in all sorts of winds, runway gradients and surfaces, and approach / climbout obstructions. I've yet to groundloop. And as I haven't flown for many months now, and probably won't again, I might have got away with it!


Same here, only I started on tail wheel airplanes sixty years ago and I also never lost control of one.......

..in fact it is probably the reason we never lost control....we had to control yaw or it would get ugly real fast.

...... I went for a real wild ride one time though checking out a Twin Otter pilot on the Grumman Turbo Goose. He went into reverse as soon as the wheels touched the runway and one prop got into reverse before the other. We went off both sides of the runway before I got it going straight but I must have been in control. :)

As to forgetting...naw you never forget.....I also am retired and fly a friends tail wheel airplane occasionally and it is like walking, you never forget.

[Piper.Classique]

Had fun in the cub today. The windsock blew away last week and the clubhouse flag just isn't the same..... :sad:

Got out of the glider, freezing cold at cloudbase but some cracking good thermals, then got the cub out ( not that it is all that cozy)
Bimbled around with a friend for a while (her first flight with me) then a nice one wheel at a time crosswind landing with a wee tailwind component. Got to agree, a wheel landing works best in less than calm conditions.
Spring may yet be on the way!

[India Four Two]

This is a general question, but perhaps specifically aimed at Chuck.

By way of preamble, I learned to fly in the UK, mainly on UAS Chipmunks with RAF QFIs. I was taught to always three-point, although I have a vague recollection of trying wheel landings on at least one occasion.

I never had problems with three-pointing, although to be fair , we had very conservative cross-wind limits, in order to protect the fleet from the efforts of ham-fisted students.

After graduation, I emigrated to Canada, where I obtained a Canadian PPL and after joining the local gliding club, I got checked out in a Citabria, in preparation for towing. I noticed that my instructor preferred wheel landings to three-pointers and I encountered the same preferences on subsequent occasions when flying with other instructors.

However, during my years at the the gliding club, I noted that without exception, the tow-pilots preferred three-pointers, even in quite strong winds. I also noticed over the years, watching 180s and 185s landing, that their pilots almost always wheel-land. This also seems to be the preferred method when reading articles about tail-dragger Cessnas.

So my two-part question is:

1. Is there a tendency to teach wheel-landings rather than three-pointers in North America?

2. Are 180s and 185s difficult to three-point?

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Which method to use is determined by a lot of factors.

Some airplanes are easier to three point than others such as a Pitts, the reason being the difficulty in seeing straight ahead over the nose.

From my years of flying tail wheel airplanes I generally prefer to wheel them on when using a paved runway and three point on grass.

The big advantage to wheel landings is more precise directional control during x/wind landings and if directional control starts to get out of hand you have inertia for the go around.

H O W E V E R .......

You should be equally proficient and comfortable in both methods before you can consider yourself a competent tail wheel pilot.

[Piper.Classique]

Plus one for that, Chuck

[chillindan]

Chuck,

Thank you. I had a bit of a nightmare yesterday with rounding out (2nd session in the circuit). I spent last night reading this thread and the original thread and tried to keep in mind most of what I read when I was flying this morning. My landings were much better. I've started chanting out loud, "keep it flying, keep it flying, keep it flying" once I've rounded out.

Anyway, just to say thanks for the post I found it most useful today.

Danny

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Danny the main factor in performing accurate round outs is the ability to judge the height above the ground and the closing rate. ( velocity at which you are moving toward the surface. )

Next time you fly with your instructor have him / her verbally track the height above the runway starting at fifty feet.....50...40...30...20....start flare....15...10...5...hold off......4. 3. 2 .1 contact surface.

This will give both of you a very clear understand of what each of you are seeing and thus make the learning experience far more easy.

Let me know how it goes.

Chuck E.

P.S.:::

A good instructor will be able to judge the height very accurately, especially near the surface......if the instructor can not judge one foot above the runway just before contact find another instructor.

[chillindan]

Thanks again Chuck. I'll try what you suggest and let you know how it goes.

Danny

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Excellent::

Remember when you drive down the M25 you don't stay in your lane and avoid other cars by " feel " you do it by " seeing ".

Same goes for judging flare height and landing.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Danny:

This is exactly the method I use to teach height judgement.


Next time you fly with your instructor have him / her verbally track the height above the runway starting at fifty feet.....50...40...30...20....start flare....15...10...5...hold off......4. 3. 2 .1 contact surface.

The student then learns what the picture should look like.

During the latter part of the final approach you use the flare point as your aim point.

Go back to the start of this thread and read my post.

After you have flared to the level attitude if you look to close in the runway / ground will blur....if you look to far in the distance the angle becomes too flat for proper height judgment.



After you have flared to the level attitude your center of vision should be about five hundred feet down the runway ahead of you.

[Desert185]

India Four Two

2. Are 180s and 185s difficult to three-point?

I've had my 185 since 2000, and I normally wheel land it tail low at touchdown, rolling it up on the mains when it does touch. Visibility is enhanced, making it easier to maintain directional control on a narrow runway. I also feel I have better directional control in a crosswind in using brakes to assist in keeping it straight. When the tail touches (at a slow speed), I retract the flaps to keep flow over the tail and assist in the always desired directional control. Adding VG's has also improved rudder control. Its the way the airplane should have been delivered from the factory.

I live and fly mainly in the mountains. Making a three-pointer with flukey winds isn't the best scenario, but I do land that way occasionally. FWIW, I learned wheel landings before three-pointers (during the '60's). That was just the way it happened.

Frankly, I think the setup for a ground loop is light and variable wind (with flaps down) when one's guard is down, so NEVER let your guard down or the airplane will rub your nose in it.

[Silvaire1]

Once again thanks for posting that video that demonstrates so well when a wheel landing would have been the better choice. Since the video was of a Luscombe, I'll chime in. I've discussed wheelers versus 3-point with any number of very experienced Luscombe pilots including two I can think of with 50 years of continuous ownership and thousands of hours on the type. They and others have held the opinion that the Luscombe has plenty of aerodynamic control authority to fly down to the stall in gusty winds, and for that reason you don't benefit from extra airspeed when flying close to the ground. Nor is the view down the runway better at higher airspeed, because its fine at any pitch attitude. Conversely, once slowing on the ground after a wheel landing, tail still in the air, you may run out aerodynamic control and be unable to maintain directional control at low airspeed before the tail is on the ground. That situation is not helped on the roll-out by no flaps and little mechanical brakes that are inconsistent in their response, hard to actuate, and mainly good for run up and slow taxi.

I do 3-pointers in a Luscombe unless I'm fooling around for fun. I think its an entirely type specific issue.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Conversely, once slowing on the ground after a wheel landing, tail still in the air, you may run out aerodynamic control and be unable to maintain directional control at low airspeed before the tail is on the ground.

It has been my experience when flying tail wheel airplanes that wheel landings gives me better directional control during the touch down portion of the landing, if I can contact the runway with no drift and the airplane tracking straight down the runway it is far easier to keep it straight than if it starts to drift in the stall attitude just before touch down.

If it starts out going straight keeping it straight is easier than trying to correct drift produced yaw.