How did you get into business jet aviation?

[Bearcat F8F]

Hi all, just curious how you pilots ended up flying business jets? I mean what have you done prior that contributed to your first job as a business jet pilot? (King Airs and any similar business turboprops count also).

I'm guessing this is much less straight forward than the typical airline route. I know networking is a big part of this business but would like to hear personal accounts if possible.

Thanks

[First.officer]

Hi Bearcat,

Well, I started flying Privately back in 1998.....decided that a career change to flying commercially was what I really wanted to do around 2000, didn't have the funding at that time but decided it would be worthwhile getting some airline style experience so 2000/01 I managed to get a job as Cabin Crew with a major UK charter airline, did that for 3-4 yrs, funds became available and left end of 2004 to do fATPL studies, finished 2006, then worked as a Dispatcher at STN, then moved in 2007 to work as an Ops Controller and then late 2007 I managed to move right seat into one of the company Citations. Company went bust Oct. 2008 and moved with two aircraft to another operator, Voluntary Redundant around March last year and then freelanced right seat on a PC12, then September moved right seat Citation with a major UK operator.

F/o

[Flying Mechanic]

Bush pilot- twin pistons charter- cargo turbo prop- heavy jet F/O - corporate F/O...upgraded to capt few years ago.
Have quite a Few mates who went turbo props to corporate.
Corporate is all about contacts and luck, and the person you are. You need to be someone who gets on well with others and flexible.

[Bearcat F8F]

First.officer, sounds like you really earned it! Whats required to work as dispatch? I live in Glasgow. I was thinking of poking around Prestwick airport. Are you aware of any business jet operators around there? Not sure if there's anything useful around Glasgow airport.

Flying Mechanic, yes I'm aware that your personality is very important for this sort of work. I am keen on acquiring some contacts also. I am not really sure how to start climbing the ladder though when you start off with zero contacts.

I have a PPL now. Hoping to have the fATPL + MCC done before end of 2015. Very keen on getting out there and starting to meeting the right people. Could you suggest any decent ways I could do this to brake into the industry? Any advice appreciated! PMs welcome too. Thanks.

[FCS_TEST]

No one slept ? Oh my god, I have been fooled !::}

[Flying Mechanic]

Once you get your license in your hand, my advice is always take a job doing anything in aviation, because then we will start to meet people, then you can network, and it takes start time. I got my cpl in 96.... First job was in 1999!

[Bearcat F8F]

Yeah of course! I will do anything that I can! Was just curious if I can do anything or find work somewhere which is non-flying to increase my chances... I mean work with a business or GA operator of some sort.

[redsnail]

Worked as a part time flight instructor and general dogs body in a small but busy flight school.
Headed "north" to the Kimberley in Australia and initially was a hangar rat for a turbine operator. Ended up with a bush pilot job flying piston singles and twins.
Then did Coastwatch for over 2 years in the Kimberley.

Headed to the east coast of Australia, got a job as a FO on Twin Otters and Bandierante's. Finally ended up with a job for a very short time in Sydney flying Dash 8's.

Left Australia. Converted the ATPL in 2001-2002.
Picked up a job as a night freight ops assistant which lead to an FO slot on the Shorts 360.

Now fly a Hawker for a well known Fractional company.

All the while, made contacts.... Very important. ;)

[supermoix]

An ex D/O from an airline We used to work years ago hired me from the regional turboprops to join him in a new corporate aviation department that was forming, that happened four years after I left the regional company (in good terms).

You can say maintaining good professional relations with colleagues and a good network will get your first corporate jet job. After that, is a matter of maintaining an excellent reputation and work ethics to keep moving fast between jobs in case your current aviation department closes. Additional skills help (management, accounting, computer abilities, operational experience, even sales and customer service, to mention some).

Now in a position with management decision making, I don't hire just pilots, I prefer hiring good people who happens to have great flying abilities, in that order.

Hope it helps, and good luck.

[DownIn3Green]

Bearcat...all excellent replies and advice...just be aware of one thing...watch what you wish for...

I cannot begin to count the number of "wannabe's" who say "I'll do anything to fly", and then when offered a job (entry level or not) that is not to their liking after a week or two, take off to find "something better"...

My advice is if you say to a network contact that you "will do anything" that you should be prepared to carry through, or you may well find your carefully laid network null and void...as well as your reputation...

However, you seem to want to take the neccessary steps, so good luck to you...

Perseverance usually will make the difference...

[Bearcat F8F]

Thanks for your replies everyone. Very interesting that a person's personality here comes before any experience. All the job websites seem to advertise for Captain and F/O positions on business jets and all of them seem to require at lest 500 hours on type :{

DownIn3Green, yep, duly noted.

supermoix, perhaps you can have a chat with me when I get a hold of my fATPL then! :rolleyes:

redsnail, got it, contacts contacts contacts! I'm keen to see where this all takes me in a few years time :ok:

[First.officer]

Hi again Bearcat,

As has been said previously, some excellent replies....networking and willingness to do what's necessary to achieve the end goal seem to be key attributes, coupled with a good dose of perseverance and a little luck and your on your way. I have to say I always find having a background in other areas of aviation useful to draw on sometimes, so whilst it may feel a little distant from your desire to fly by working in say Ops etc., personally I feel it's damn good experience to have in the bag!.

[Stick35]

Hi bearcat.

My experience. When i graduated i did some flightseeing flights on a Cessna. There was an operator at the airport where i did my training and i used to know someone inside. I did that on a voluntary basis in my freetime. It was a great experience. Especially with young kids who wanted to be pilots as well. After almost 3 years applying, i got my first job in the corporate on a Lear. Meanwhile after 5 years working i got jobless but i'm shortlisted in an airline company,so hoping to start end of this year. My advice to all wannabes is really to start small and work your way up. You see and learn a lot and, you can make a better picture for yourself what you actually want. ( corporate or airline or perhaps something else in aviation). I must say, it is indeed very hard to get in the corporate, harder than the airline. If you see eg Tag aviation they want people with only 50h on type. Just a nasty way to say :"we are not going to pay for the type.". Try to network and also MAINTAIN the contacts you have. If you see someone at the airport, invite him/her for a pint. Meanwhile stay current and study. If you are able to get a jeppesen vol 1: read!!!
Good luck you'll get there, you are still very young.

[Globalstream]

Be mindful about the quality of your employer. A tatty operator on you CV might raise questions about your values and skills and simply fast track you to the round file.

I look at the quality of experience when I've hired and research the reputation of an operation if it's unknown to me. I can think of three carriers whose former employees go straight in the bin. I've just been reading about Lion Air, so there might be a fourth!

[Bearcat F8F]

Globalstream, I thought Lion Air was part of the 3 until I read your reply to the end hehe! Let me guess... Ryanair, Air France maybe... since they had a lot of stall warners go off recently :E and... hmmm... some Russian airline?

Stick35, thanks for the advice, will try my best :ok:

First.officer, yeah I should do more research on the whole "ground ops." thing. I'm not even sure what jobs there are in that sort of area. Would love to fill the time with it though while I'm still saving up for the fATPL and MCC.

[SwedePilot]

I just started flying bizjet and I finished flying school about 1,5 year ago. I basically tried my hardest to make a good impression while in school since my instructors was all part timers in the instructing and full/part time in either corporate, charter or ambulance and got som good recommendations and contacts through them. When I was finished I flew some towing and other cheap time building just to keep my chin up and have some fun while getting all the "No, we do not hire anyone at the moment", and suddenly I got a job as ground operations at a small business jet operator. Both thanks to my self and thanks to a former instructor that worked with the operator some years ago. He recommended me. This was 9 months ago. I scheduled planes and pilots and did all the catering orders, fuel orders, transport and the other stuff around the flights and again, tried really hard showing the boss that I really want to be in this business... And suddenly when I where about to schedule some flights and we just got some unexpected drop outs - there was not enough pilots for the flights! :ok:
One week later I was scheduled on my first type rating. 290 hrs total time....
tomorrow I'm doing my first flight with paying pax in a jet aircraft. EXCITING!

I think that I have had some really good luck here, but also - I've tried really hard, basically worked 24/7, 7 days a week with the operations and still doing that. I have also made my best trying to get to know all the pilots (very small operation), getting them to like me and wanting me in the team, pitching for me.

Good luck everyone! if you want it you can do it :)

[Bearcat F8F]

SwedePilot, congrats! Definitely sounds like you have earned it! Are they paying for your TR too?!

What sort of qualifications do you require for ground ops? Very intrigued! :ok:

And yeah believe me, I want it pretty bad, haha! :{

[Flying Mechanic]

Well done swedepilot, a good example of how to get into the right seat of jet, based on hard work and determination! Enjoy your first flight.

[SwedePilot]

Thank you guys!

Hmmm, for the Ops role you need to be able to do a lot at once. Bookings coming in, people wanting quotes, planes going for service, flights coming up, some flights needs permits, some needs handling to be requested from handling companies, you need to get prices from different handling companies, catering companies, fuel companies and so on for every flight. and then order the catering (some times there is some tricky ones, haha!) order the fuel, the handling, requested rental cars, hotels, helicopters and so on... Some flights comes up weeks early, some just hours before the departure. You need to hunt the pilots down schedule them and often position them to go where the plane is at the moment.... and this is just the beginning.. not to mention the flight planning, performance calculations. pretty sure I missed a lot...
Anyway, Its nice to be able to cope with stress. The Russians that always wait until the last moment to give you your permit number while the pax is in the plane and the commander sits with his finger on the start button and you on the phone is a good thing to try to see if your stress level is ok or not ;)
And not to forget the organ/ambulance flights that pops up in the middle of the night demanding all these things to be done in like 30 minutes....

Its pretty fun, you learn A LOT at operations! I had no idea that it was so much going on behind the scenes. And that will help me when I'm out flying... well, now Im gonna be the one scheduling my own flights and booking my own positioning tickets but still, I understand what people that are involved with every flight and who to turn to when I need something on the line.

Yes my company pays the TR. We have a deal though. I stay on my Operations salary for one year. But thats far away from the amount of money the TR costs so for me that was fair enough. Since my friends and classmates pays themselves into Ryanair right at this moment I'm very happy at my position with my Operations paycheck :) The one year deal was to make me more attractive to my boss then just to pick a contract guy in these flights where we couldnt make it. At this point I cost just under the contract guy if we would use him at an average of once a week all year round.

:ok:

dunno if this is interesting for you but read if you want, skip if you like :)

[SwedePilot]

Laughed hard about the post about the sleeping way of getting a job. Wonder if anyone have done it that way.....

[Bearcat F8F]

SwedePilot, yep very interesting. What qualifications did you have to get a job in ops in the first place? Is it a requirment to hold an pilot license or any other non-flying related certificates? A university degree maybe? Just curious how I can find a job like that in the future...

[SwedePilot]

Hmmm, All job advertisements I've seen relating Operations requires either that you worked in Operations before or that you are a pilot. Some employers think that it is negative if you are a pilot, as you will probably find your way to a flying job instead as fast as you can. Others think it's good since you already know some of the regulations we follow in Operations and understand bits of the business already. I think its up to the employer. If they want to use you as both a pilot and at Operations in the future its obviously good to be a pilot ;) But if not, that doesn't matter or could even be a bad thing. Bigger companies comply to the last, more slimmed ones most probably want you to be able to play different roles to be as useful as possible.


You should have finished high school and have a driving license and access to a car. When I applied to our company they didnt need anyone at Operations either, but after coming to the interview, which was set up just because I called and nagged the chief pilot, he and the others in the office thought that I'd fit well into the Operations because of what I have worked with in the past and because I'm a pilot. (Have had some service jobs and a lot to do with customer contact and stressful environments).
Even if you have experience from this kind of work before you'll have a company course and a course in Subpart Q and other relevant matters.

[Bearcat F8F]

Alright gotcha! Will investigate further once I have my fATPL in hand. Thanks for the info! :ok:

[INNflight]

I can second that working in OPS is a great way to get into the business.
Not only will you make valuable contacts while proving you are doing a good and enthusiastic job for the ones already flying, but you will in all honesty gain a wealth of knowledge and insights that will help you to better understand the way business aviation works.

While I am currently with an airline, I paid some dues in bizav dispatch and it was a learning experience I would not want to miss. It's a very small world out there, and you will cross paths with a lot of people over the years. It will most certainly pay off if they remember you doing excellent and motivated work for them back in the days.

[Valmont]

SwedePilot, congrats for your first flight. I hope you had a blast ! I know the first one can be pretty challenging.. tell me about it ;).

Out of curiosity, what kind of BizJet are you currently flying ? ;)

[Booglebox]

Second what SwedePilot and INNflight said. It's a very good path for many reasons. :cool:
Good luck, let us know how you get on!

[Scroll Lock]

Was lucky enough to have an old man who saw it was cheaper to buy than to hire. So..flew family twin for 3 years, headed to places exotic and not so exotic.
Got an AOC for the twin, eventually, but business was cr@p, so Dad sold the AOC to some bloke who wanted to start up a freight operation. Was sold into slavery as well, and after setting up the office and writing Ops manuals, got a position in RHS of Shed 33
Company folded as I was doing my Command training.

Went to San Antonio to do self sponsered C550 rating, finished on the monday, flew home tuesday, phone call from LEA wednesday, interview STN thursday, started on the monday !!!

Lucky doesn't cut it.

Left LEA as was offered position by Redsnails well known company...been here 10 years now and have seen more changes than Chelsea managers.

Good luck and remember:

1) it's a small world aviation, try not to step on peoples hands as you climb the ladder.....
You may need them to catch you if you slide back down again.

2) Be better than the guy/girl next to you ( or at least make them think you are )

blue side up
SL

edited to include the word girl. Lest I get accused of sexism ;)

[Bearcat F8F]

Scroll Lock, thanks for the advice!

So LEA didn't require any experience on type? Did they require a TR though?

And say if you were planning on funding a TR, which TR would you choose? I mean with airlines it's easy - you either do a 737NG or an A320 and with either one the chances of it being useful are roughly 50%. But with biz jets... I mean there are so may different type out there... surely you must have some sort of monumental luck to find an operator who wants someone with the TR you have & no hours on type?

Also, I was wondering, when employers do require a TR, is it possible to apply for the job without having one but with the intention of acquiring it by self-funding straight after you get selected? I mean provided you do actually get selected.


P.S. Just checked out LEA's fleet. They don't seem to have any 550s at present time.

[Globalstream]

Self funding type ratings is not normal in this sector and is looked upon very unfavorably by many of the people you will be approaching for work. In many cases, the mere suggestion could sabotage your application.

Besides being incredibly risky (guessing which type you would be hired on) it's almost axiomatic that the sort of place that would demand you pay for your type is the sort of place you won't enjoy working or want on your CV. Bonding is a much fairer and healthier suggestion.

If you are serious about corporate, you need to be a bit more realistic. In all likelihood you will need to get a ground position and network you way in and in the mean time build some meaningful flight time that demonstrates some commitment and tangible skills to the corporate community. Thankfully the corporate world is generally not prepared to baby sit freshly licensed pilots which is indicative that this sector genuinely values experience, personality and handling skills.

I appreciate your enthusiasm and the difficulty of getting into the corporate world, but only professional contractors organize their own training which is a very niche role, demanding, also financially risky and something you are very many years and hours from being able to consider.

[Scroll Lock]

Bearcat,
No I dont think they operate the Citation II anymore.
I was with them in 2002, just after they statred the jet operation from STN, so ages ago.

They as a company like self sponsored people, but i wouldnt do anything unless you had a firm job offer in writing from them. Mind you, this info is at least 11 years old, so prob not of use.

happy hunting
SL

[SwedePilot]

I'm flying the c550 anf c560 :)

[what next]

Self funding type ratings is not normal in this sector and is looked upon very unfavorably by many of the people you will be approaching for work. In many cases, the mere suggestion could sabotage your application.

Interesting statement. Maybe we live in very different parts of this world or in different worlds altogether? In my little world there are very, very, very few employers left who will pay for your (first) type rating.

[RAFAT]

Self funding type ratings is not normal in this sector and is looked upon very unfavorably by many of the people you will be approaching for work. In many cases, the mere suggestion could sabotage your application.


Like what next I find that statement to be wide of the mark in the real world. At my last employer they sold the last of the type that I flew so made me redundant pending a slot coming up on another type. Unfortunately that never materialised because I was pushed aside by pilots who were willing to pay for their ratings.

[Klimax]

The largest respected management and charter companies still don't seem to hold back on financing type ratings for the "right" people. Surely some owners/management companies from time to time require pilots with time on type - for whatever reasons that may be - say insurance requirements.
An employer/company with integrity and a properly setup business plan might chose to bond the employee for say 2-3 years - just as a matter of justification towards the owners.
At the end of the day a 50K USD G-V, BD700, 7X etc TR is really not that much money, in the grand perspective of things - as seen from the owners side or the companies side - if they found the "right" pilot(s) for the job. You don't get rich from only looking at the short term cost side of things.

[119.35]

BC,

You're still very young and probably would have more chance getting into an airline for your first job than corporate. Being older in corporate is generally seen as a plus as it portrays experience whether it is true or not. Where as, in the airlines, being older (without experience) is seen as a negative as you are considered a training threat. In corporate, often there are other barriers such min hours required for insurance purposes.

My route in was unexpected. I worked at weekends for 18 months in dispatch alongside my full time mon to fri job with a 3 hr drive thrown in for good measure. Not easy with a demanding job and young family. Out of the blue, my old ppl instructor who I had kept in contact with (but never asked for a job) called me to ask if I was interested in a FO position with his operator which was on my doorstep. Had plenty to talk about in my interviews and my 18 months in Dispatch with another operator demonstrated the commitment to GA they were seeking. So as people have said, corporate is all about contacts/friends as positions rarely get advertised with the smaller outfits.

As others have said, I would suggest some hard time in Ops/Dispatch may be your best chance as you quite often find barriers around min hours for insurance purposes then disappear!

GA flying is varied and often rewarding, but this is all down to the type of operator. Good luck with your endeavours.

[DA50driver]

I am in a position to hire pilots and I immediately disqualify anyone that says they will work for free or fund their own type.

Billionaires own the airplanes we operate. A 50k type rating is part of the cost of doing business.

[CaptainProp]

The problem is that a lot of greedy management companies have been promising owners that they will get type rated pilots so that they look cheaper than the competition. This has now become almost industry standard, at least in Europe.
What they don't tell the owner is that, at least if the aircraft is on an AOC, they will have to complete a company recurrent anyway and at the end of the day the difference in cost will be very little between getting a rated or non-rated pilot. In fact, it may be a very good investment to spend that little extra money and get the right people through the doors. Instead companies are now recruiting type ratings and not pilots.

[Bearcat F8F]

DA50driver (http://www.pprune.org/members/55373-da50driver), sorry, I'm a bit lost now... so if someone shows up with a TR already in hand for the position you are recruiting for, do you turn him/her down? My point being, what is the difference in getting a type rated person as opposed to one that is willing to self-fund it anyway?

Don't get me wrong, I can't imagine anything better than the employer paying for the TR, and frankly it's a disgrace that it needs to happen any other way, but at the end of the day, lots of operators seem to want type rated people... and surely you can't blame someone for trying to get his/her foot inside the door by self-funding it (provided there's a job on the other end).

[Tray Surfer]

I think he/she is saying that is someone offered to do it, then they would be discounted... Not if they turned up with the TR already.

[RAFAT]

DA50driver - that's a very honourable standpoint which no doubt leads you to recruit the right person for the job, however, CaptainProp portrays a scenario which is far more familiar to me than yours.

[Bearcat F8F]

I think he/she is saying that is someone offered to do it, then they would be discounted... Not if they turned up with the TR already.
Yeah I understand, I just don't get what the difference is.

[redsnail]

Experience. Generally folks who turn up with the type rating already have hours on type, not just a bare rating. (This is applicable in the biz jet world).

[Bearcat F8F]

So basically, to set your foot inside the door you should find a vacancy which requires zero hours/ no TR... can't think off the top of my head ever having seen such a position being advertised anywhere but I do understand it's all about networking so I guess we should take comfort in knowing that it's possible to find work with no experience provided you meet the right people.

[rightbank]

P.S. Just checked out LEA's fleet. They don't seem to have any 550s at present time.

No I dont think they operate the Citation II anymore

According to the links below they still have some, both with current Cs of A.

GINFO Search Results | Aircraft Register | Operations and Safety (http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?catid=60&pagetype=65&appid=1&mode=detailnosummary&fullregmark=SPUR)

GINFO Search Results | Aircraft Register | Operations and Safety (http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?catid=60&pagetype=65&appid=1&mode=detailnosummary&fullregmark=FJET)