Just curious about how to recover from a wing drop at the stall

[Tee Emm]

Talked to a GFPT qualified student about how he was taught to recover from a practice stall with a wing drop. He flies at a country flying school that has 152 and 172's. He said his instructor teaches him to pick up the dropped wing with full rudder while keeping the ailerons central. In other words skid the aircraft until the wings are level then use aileron as needed after that.

Seems a most unusual technique. Anyone ever heard of that one?:eek:

[rgmgbg01]

How about unstall the wing? - pretty much problem solved then.

Now lets all get back to bitching and back stabbing!

[Frank Arouet]

Seems a most unusual technique. Anyone ever heard of that one?

WIND UP ALERT!:*

[Shagpile]

Pull back on the stick to stretch the glide. You won't make the runway pushing forward. Be sure to use opposite ailerons to keep wings level and if you get some wing drop, apply full rudder in the direction of the drop to help it out. Why would you apply opposite rudder?

[Mail-man]

Must not forget to apply power before breaking the stall to increase slipstream control over the empennage......

[The Green Goblin]

Ask planky :D

[ShyTorque]

Stall + full rudder would work; as long as you know the spin recovery technique.

[darkroomsource]

to the OP...
Are you a pilot? are you training to be a pilot?
If not, then, this is the way to recover from a 'stall/spin' - you relax the control yoke (or stick), possibly push forward, apply full opposite rudder to arrest the spin, and when the spin is stopped then deal with the stall.
If you are training to be a pilot, have a long conversation, and some practice time with your instructor.
If you are a pilot, then go find an instructor and have a long conversation and some practice time - you may be dangerous to yourself and your passengers.

[Wilbur60]

Lesson 1:to climb pull the stick
Lesson 2:to descend pull the stick more

[Kodachrome]

If I'm not mistaken, Tee Emm is trying to say that following a stall with a wing drop (ie the yoke has been pushed forward and power applied, the aircraft is no longer in a stalled condition) that this student was using full opposite rudder to level the wings instead of using the aileron as one would normally do.

Its a wing drop, not a spin

[VH-FTS]

I think the OP is getting at it being strange that the pilot is being taught to level the wings with rudder.

Sounds like Tee Em's belief, which I share, is use rudder to stop the yaw while simultaneously relaxing the back pressure to stop the stall. Once this had been done, the aircraft will no longer be stalled, and the aircraft can be rolled back to wings level with ailerons. If anyone believes this use of ailerons will create a second stall, you need to go up and try it out for yourself.

Of course, know your individual aircraft, but using ailerons after stopping the yaw and stall in your garden variety light aircraft is unlikely to cause any problems.

Anyway, looking forward to more banter and the weekend warrior experts shooting me down.

EDIT - the above poster beat me to it! Stupid ipad keyboard is too slow!

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

Close the throttle - kick the ball into the centre - let the go the control wheel - watch what happens next !!! :confused:

[Capn Bloggs]

to the OP...
Are you a pilot? are you training to be a pilot?

Hoo Haa Haa Tee Hee Hee! :D

[Oktas8]

Tee Emm, I taught that technique when I first started instructing. Sadly it's not as uncommon as we would like to think.

While we're being picky, it's neither "push forward" nor "relax back pressure". The one results in unnecessary height loss if trimmed nose down, the other has no effect if trimmed into a stall (eg steep turn at full power, trimmed for slow flight). I now use "move the stick forward until..." as it covers every trim state, from basic stall right through to spin.

Too picky? Ah well... Cheers anyway, O8

[Centaurus]

Seems a most unusual technique. Anyone ever heard of that one?

OK - here is this writers viewpoint and I am sure everyone has different views on the original post. I suspect that the majority of flying school instructors adhere to the teaching that the rudder is used to "pick up" the dropped wing. Anecdotal evidence from many student pilots in the Melbourne area, reveal the "pick up the dropped wing with rudder" is widely taught.

Yet there is little doubt it is just another one of many flying school myths taught as fact by new instructors who learned from their instructors and so on. While training aircraft are not supposed to sharply drop a wing at point of stall (they would not pass the original certification tests if that happened) a wing drop could happen if the aircraft was mis-rigged for example; in which case the maintenance release must be endorsed as aircraft un-airworthy.

Almost all current training aircraft from the "old" Cessna 150's to the latest hot training ships have ailerons that remain effective beyond the critical angle. They are designed that way. In which case the ailerons may be used to regain or maintain lateral control in association with the rudder.

For example an extract from the Boeing 737 flight crew training manual states: At the first indication of stall smoothly advance the thrust levers to maximum thrust and adjust the pitch attitude as needed to avoid the ground.
Simultaneously level the wings (My highlighting) .

Note -there is no reference to using the rudders to level the wings. .

It is instructive to read what the 1975 Department of Transport Flight Instructors Handbook has to say about recovery when the wing drops.

Quote: "Use the standard recovery, ie simultaneous use of power and forward movement of the contol column. In addition rudder must be used to prevent the nose of the aeroplane yawing into the direction of the lowered wing. The ailerons should be held neutral until control is regained when the wings should be levelled."

Again, note the wording "to prevent the nose of the aeroplane yawing into the direction of the lowered wing" Nothing there either about levelling the wings with rudder.

The simultaneous unstalling of the wings by lowering the angle of attack and increasing power (slipstream) means control has been regained. As long as sufficient rudder is held initially to prevent the dropped wing from going down further, then the wings are levelled normally by aileron.

It is a potentially dangerous teaching to state any wing drop should be picked up by rudder alone and the aircraft skidded with ailerons neutral until the wings are level. Doing that at the point of stall is asking for entry into a spin in the direction of the applied rudder, especially as high power is applied at the same time.

Since all new grade 3 instructors are supposed to be initially tested by CASA approved testing officers, it makes you wonder what these testing officers are letting through the system if the "picking up the dropped wing with rudder" myth is allowed to perpetuate.

[Mail-man]

Is this not just an argument to teach both incipient spin and full spin recovery, and "stall stick position"?

[Homesick-Angel]

Yes the term "pick up" the wing with rudder is used, but all it does is stop the wing from dropping any further. I've never heard of it being taught as a way to level the wings..?

Un stalling the wing is something altogether different, but there ain't much point un stalling with the nose attitude low and at a high and increasing angle of bank so may as well stop the rolling first..

Lets get real tho.. The majority of training aircraft 152s and 172s etc are so ridiculously stable, that you would have to do everything wrong, and then hold all those stupid control inputs for quite a period of time to get yourself into real trouble ( unless your close to the ground, then trouble may arrive sooner than later.) .

Having taught spinning, the hilarious "choose your own adventure" recovery techniques I've seen even after solid briefings would make yours eyes water, and the aircraft still wants to sort it's self out and recover...

Next time you have some time to kill, go fly around with the stall warning going at all times ( might be best to start at altitude..) climb, descend and turn etc all with the stall going off.

A lot of people are sh1t scared of flight at those speeds and attitudes..

There's not much need for the fear in most training aircraft.

[Dash 42]

I may go a little of the original topic here, but spin recovery technique needs to be considered in order to understand the logic of using rudder to 'pick up' a wing that has stalled:

In lighties, at first sign of a wing-drop (i.e. commencement of auto-rotation or a spin), it is important to STOP rotation initially with rudder; whilst the ailerons and elevator are held neutral. Some instructors incorrectly refer to this as 'picking up the wing', but the intention is simply to prevent further rotation so that a normal recovery can be made; not return the aircraft to wings level with rudder alone.

Stopping the rotation BEFORE applying forward elevator is critical if flying something like a Pitts special, or Decathalon etc, because when full opposite rudder and full forward stick are applied simultaneously, a 'crossover' can occur, where you'll quickly find yourself in an inverted spin. The problem is; unless you've seen it before, it's very hard to diagnose. There have been several fatal accidents where this has occurred. The pilot thinks he/she has applied spin recovery controls, but instead has now applied pro-inverted spin controls and never recovers. The most effective spin recovery in most light aircraft is full opposite rudder, neutral aileron and elevator, then recover once rotation has stopped.

Aircraft that are not approved for spinning, or aircraft that are not loaded within correct CoG limits, may not recover from a full spin unless full forward stick is applied ONCE ROTATION HAS STOPPED. In some aircraft, with full forward elevator, the tail plane can be blanked partially from clean airflow, and can reduce or null the effect of rudder, hence it's important to stop the rotation with full opposite rudder whilst the elevator is neutral.

Another thing that I have observed being taught with regards to normal stall recovery (i.e. coordinated flight), is the use of excessive, or even full forward elevator. In most cases, full forward elevator is not required to recover from a normal stall. The idea of teaching stall recovery is to have the pilot recognize the approach to the stall, recognize the stall, and recover the aircraft to normal controlled flight with a MINIMUM OF HEIGHT LOSS.

My bolding is because most people are expensive with height loss in a stall recovery. As it is most likely that an inadvertent stall will occur at lower heights, minimizing height loss is of the essence. Think about the stick possition change required to get the aircraft from the Critical AoA, to the stall; you only need to move the stick back that last centimeter or so to enter the stall. Therefore, returning the stick back to the last position before it stalled (i.e. about a poofteenth forward), will not only un-stall the wing, but will put you at or near the critical angle where max coefficient of lift occurs. With the addition of full power, a max effort recovery can occur, minimizing height lost.

Of course, as Centaurus demonstrated, the manufacturer will specify procedures specific to the aircraft type. My point; RTFM!:8


Dash

[Jack Ranga]

I like Ex's technique, skip the stall recovery altogether :ok:

[pithblot]

Thanks for your posts Centaurus and Dash 42.

What do you do before the spin recovery?

I was taught this;

+ throttle closed
+ ailerons central
+ identify spin direction, using the turn needle (works in IMC and works in an inverted spin).

Then
+ recover, using the manufacturers recommended technique.

PS
Someone asked if the OP is a pilot?

Do a search on the threads started be Tee Emm, read some of his posts. They are some of the most insightful observations and comments on PPRUNE. He sounds like the real deal to me.

[Arm out the window]

I think the key actions to be taught are to use only enough rudder to stop the wing dropping further while simultaneously unstalling the wings ASAP with power and forward stick (ailerons neutral).

Almost immediately then you'll be able to use aileron to level the wings and climb away.

The worrying thing to me reading some of these responses is the talk of using heaps of rudder before unstalling, the thought of which should, I hope, start alarm bells ringing about inadvertent spins.

[Tinstaafl]

I don't believe 'rudder' and 'wing drop' should even be used in the same sentence. Rudder to prevent yaw, however...

[VH-XXX]

Some would say that prevention is better than cure.

I've done a fair amount of flying and the only time I've stalled is when touching down and during lessons with instructors. Works for me !

[Horatio Leafblower]

It is a potentially dangerous teaching to state any wing drop should be picked up by rudder alone and the aircraft skidded with ailerons neutral until the wings are level. Doing that at the point of stall is asking for entry into a spin in the direction of the applied rudder, especially as high power is applied at the same time

I was taught by Grade 3 instructors who were taught by grade 3 instructors who were taught by Grade 3 instructors, none of whom had ever worked except as Grade 3 instructors at the same school they trained at.

I was taught the same "pick up wing with rudder" and the CFI/ATO (ex Roulette) passed me same as he passed all the previous.

Was docile enough in a Cherokee but once I was instructing in other machines :uhoh:

Unstalling the aircraft removes the reason for the rolling. Full opposite rudder makes things VERY exciting :}

[Arm out the window]

I was taught the same "pick up wing with rudder" and the CFI/ATO (ex Roulette) passed me same as he passed all the previous.


Gotta watch these ex-Roulettes!

Notwithstanding granting a pass or otherwise, it would greatly surprise me if whoever it was you're talking about would teach picking a wing up with rudder. The RAAF way ever since I got involved with it (early 80s) was to use rudder only to 'prevent further yaw', which practically means use only enough to stop the wing drop, not pick it back up to wings level (which is just asking for an autorotation in my view).

[VH-XXX]

Have a think about what you are actually saying when you say "pick up a wing with rudder."

Scenario: Aircraft drops a wing in the stall and the nose drops and you are looking directly at the ground.

How are you going to pick up a wing with rudder? Which one has dropped? Neither!

The rudder prevents further yaw, aka spinning.

[Horatio Leafblower]

Well.... it was 20 years ago now... but the briefing notes all say the same thing.

[PA39]

WTF!!!!!! some of these posts are hilarious while others make me wonder to what depths our instructors have fallen to with their own initial training. I think Frank A sums it up nicely lol lol lol :O:O:O

[MikemSantos]

If your near your landing phase just a few feet over the runway with a low speed, and have a sudden lack of lift "Windsear" on one wing, you should use opposite rudder, as using the yoke or stick, to lift the wing would only give the stalled wing a higher angle of the chord-line "stall angle" and would just worsen the stall.

Opposite rudder and Power and neural stick or yoke...

For Spins I learned the Portuguese word Stop "Pare"

Wiki it... ;)

PARE stands for:


Power: idle
Ailerons: neutral (and flaps up)
Rudder: full opposite to the spin and held in that position
Elevator: through neutral

Hold these inputs until rotation stops, then:


Rudder: neutral
Elevator: easy pull to straight and level or a climbing attitude

[OZBUSDRIVER]

??????

Actually, should the argument be...."Should ab-initio pilots learn on aircraft with similar characteristics to a Tiger Moth?"

That way...real pilots will learn about real handling. Instead, learning how to drive a spam can around the sky creates deficiencies. Modern aircraft do have designed in features that make them safe. You can use ailerons to pick up a dropped wing because it will not adversely yaw.....does this make for a better pilot?

[VH-FTS]

If your near your landing phase just a few feet over the runway with a low speed, and have a sudden lack of lift "Windsear" on one wing, you should use opposite rudder, as using the yoke or stick, to lift the wing would only give the stalled wing a higher angle of the chord-line "stall angle" and would just worsen the stall.


Using rudder like that during the landing phase - no wonder you Europeans have so many runway excursions...

[VH-XXX]

If your near your landing phase just a few feet over the runway with a low speed, and have a sudden lack of lift "Windsear" on one wing, you should use opposite rudder,

Exactly what I was thinking FTS.

That's covered in the primary and secondary effects of flight controls, lesson 1.

The primary effect of rudder is yaw. Secondary effect is roll.

Why on earth would you attempt to pick up a dropped wing with rudder 5 ft off the ground whilst relying on roll as a secondary effect? Why not just use the ailerons? Better that than dragging a wing on the ground. If you're that close to the ground better off stalling straight and level!

[Old Akro]

I think this debate is separating into those who learned in the tail dragger era vs the spam can era. Close to the stall in many old aircraft, you have nearly no aileron effectiveness or can you kind of have control reversal where trying to pick up a wing with aileron increases its angle of attack to the point of stall - causing further wing drop. Most modern aircraft have dealt with this by making the inboard wing stall first through washout or stall strips or sometimes by changing airfoil completely for the outboard section. Biplanes often make one wing stall first to aid aileron control. Rigging changes to make upgoing aileron's travel more than yaw - drag inducing downgoing ailerons helps aileron effectiveness near the stall too.

Something like a tapered wing cherokee you can be lazy and just use aileron. But try that on anything made by De Haviland, Auster, a short wing Piper, possible even an old Cherokee 140 and you'll be pretty disappointed. Even the Seneca - which has the old Piper constant chord wing, responds better to rudder to pick up a wing on short final.

I can't believe there can be this discussion on a pilot forum. All those who answered aileron should grab a Cessna aerobat and try some flying a couple of knots above stall. Try a " falling leaf" manoever. Use rudder and you'll keep it upright -aileron will tip you into a spin. And maybe read Eric Mullers book on aerobatics (which from memory was very good on spins) - or Neil Williams book, or many others. Try Rich Stowell's , Bud Davisson, Sparky Imerson or even to RAA Aus websites.

My old mentor Ken McKechnie made me fly at the stall endlessly in the pitts, both in level flight and in loops. We could loop the 2 place with 2 up well below normal cruise. At the top of the loop I'd be actively working the rudder, but holding the ailerons still. A touch of aileron and we'd fall off in a spin (anyone who thinks this would be an inverted spin should go to the back of the room), but keep the nose straight and it will drop to get you around the loop.

[DeltaT]

Do not apply 737 / jet aircraft stall recovery techniques to other aircraft! :ugh:

[WhyByFlier]

As far as I'm concerned - anyone who applies rudder near the stall while I'm in the plane is getting a karate chop. The wing often dropped in light aircraft I flew (PA28, C152, Robin 200, PA44). Lower the nose whilst smoothly increasing power and then pick up the wing once properly unstalled. The training process is about getting a habit like response, that you understand and can apply quickly to recover what could be a very dangerous situation.

Bare in mind this is training - a practice manoeuvre - you're primed for the stall anyway, if the wing drops, it drops. In real life, should it unexpectedly happen, pissing around with the rudder in or near the stall could be bad news.

PERFECT practice makes perfect. Not practice makes perfect.

[Frank Arouet]

If a wing drops at low speed and low altitude, treat the experience as life threatening. Understand the consequences and decide whether rudder pedals are for foot rests or for some other reason.

If you need to understand the function of the rudder, fly a PA-28 (preferably at altitude), 1500 RPM in a nose high attitude until stall buffett and work hard on those pedals to see if you can fly all day like that. If you're up to it.

Then in level flight find a fixed point on the near horizon and rock your wings 30 degrees at any speed while keeping the nose on the object. You will then understand what rudder pedals are for.

PS: Don't take up aerobatics until you can master those basic skills.

Better still, don't pretend to be an aviator when you are only a pilot.

[Warbo]

Here is a pretty neat video made to help address the number of ag accidents involving aircraft 'falling' out of turns a few years back.

This guy is an ex-Navy fighter pilot, ex-Ag pilot and current airshow pilot/aerobatics instructor. Three disciplines that really explore the envelope.


Turn Smart - YouTube

[DBTW]

Where did the standard stall recovery (SSR) go? No real mystery, it works for all light aircraft no matter the era of manufacture...the aim of the SSR is to recover the aircraft to unstalled flight with minimum height loss.

In terms of the training manoeuvre, to recognise a stall you must know the symptoms which are as follows:
High nose attitude,
Slow and decreasing airspeed,
audio warning (if fitted),
light to moderate buffet

By continuing beyond this incipient stage, having recognised the symptoms, you will then see the indications of the stall:
Nose drop
Possible wing drop
Heavy buffet
High rate of descent

The SSR consists of the following actions in all light aircraft.

Simultaneously:
stick forward sufficient to unstall the wing
select full power
rudder to prevent further yaw

Once the wing is unstalled:
roll wings level with aileron
smoothly select climb attitude (so as not to re-enter the stall)

A sensible addition is to perform some checks to determine what happened in order to prevent recurrence.

NB: the phrase "sufficient to unstall the wing" means just that, and a SSR does not imply hurtling towards the ground, especially if you are at low level.

As you all know in your hearts, there is no circumstance where it is right "to pick up the wing with rudder" when in or near the stall. The rudder is to prevent further yaw only. The yaw may be evident to you as wing drop, but that does not mean you use rudder to pick up the wing...only to stop further yaw. Once the wing is unstalled, roll wings level with aileron.

Use of rudder "to pick up the wing" when close to the stall in a light aircraft is called "the spin entry technique"...that actually applies to all light aircraft.

Hope this helps? One may also choose to note upright stalls are associated with an aft control column position...hence the first noted input for simultaneous action in the SSR.

[Ultralights]

Do not apply 737 / jet aircraft stall recovery techniques to other aircraft!

unless flying circuits in a 152, then use the same spacing as a 737, because we all know you will be flying jets one day! :E

[OZBUSDRIVER]

That video goes in to the pool room!

[Centaurus]

While training aircraft are not supposed to sharply drop a wing at point of stall (they would not pass the original certification tests if that happened) a wing drop could happen if the aircraft was mis-rigged for example;

Having had a fair amount of experience at practice stall recoveries I would say that the worst cases of a sharp wing drop at the point of stall that I have seen were the RAAF Wirraway, DC3 Dakota (with full flap and approach power on) and a badly misrigged Cessna 152.

Power on full flapped stalls in the Wirraway were startling and the cause of many a broken wingtip if the aircraft was held off too high during the landing float. In fact, the Wirraway was notorious for that as those former RAAF Ppruners of a certain era will recall. Instant (or inadvertent, whatever) use of aileron to pick up the dropped wing was a guarantee of more trouble. It was common for the stick to snatch from side to side and hit one's knees at the point of stall. Altogether, the Wirraway was considered the ideal trainer to master with confidence in preparation for going to on to fighters and big multi-engine types.

Tha Dakota `dirty` stall with approach power was scary (at least, I thought so in those days) because not only was it a relatively big transport, but the wing would drop viciously and the nose pitch down steeply and you could lose 800 feet or more and finish up 90 degrees to the original direction of flight. Done on instruments, the steep wing drop was enough to un-gimball (topple)the air driven artificial horizon and the directional gyro, meaning the pilot had to recover on the turn and bank indicator as well of course as the other remaining flight instuments.

I first flew the Mustang when I had a grand total of 210 hours and was thankful of the previous Wirraway time on pilots course. While I don't recall having any problems with stall recovery on the Mustang, I must say reading the stalling section in the Mustang Pilot's Notes was enough to scare me off doing silly things.

You will enjoy the following extracts (edited for brevity) from Mustang Pilot's Notes, page 32 RAAF Publication No. 780 dated September 1950:

"With fuselage tank full or half full, there is no buffeting to give warning of the approaching stall but a series of stick reversals occurs just above stalling speed; at the stall the right wing drops sharply and unless immediate recovery action is taken, a spin may develop.... the control column must be moved firmly forward for recovery......the aircraft sinks rapidly as stalling speed is approached.....if the control column is held back at the stall, a wing will drop very rapidly and the aircraft will become inverted."

I was caught completely by surprise by the behaviour of a Cessna 152 that, unbeknown to me at the time, was un-airworthy with grossly mis-rigged wings. The maintenance release was clean of course.

The student (himself a grade 2 flying instructor needing recurrency) conducted a clean power off stall. For some reason the stall warning failed to operate and at the point of stall, the left wing dropped rapidly through more than sixty degrees and the aircraft turned through 180 degrees before control was regained. Remember this was clean -no flaps. We lost more than 500 feet. Cessna 152's are not supposed to behave like that.

Thinking it was just an abberation, we stalled with full flap and 1500 RPM. Again no stall warning and again a vicious wing drop with same loss of height. It would have been quite dangerous for a student pilot holding off high during a landing and having the wing drop so savage.

Not having flown that particular C152 before, I was unaware that many pilots already knew about the unusual stall characteristics but chose not to write up the defect. The owner of the aircraft took some convincing to get it fixed and that is when the mis-rigging was discovered.

Of course, that was a rare situation. But it goes to show that when hiring an aircraft privately there is always a remote chance that there may be unreported defects that affect the airworthiness of the aircraft.

[MakeItHappenCaptain]

Why is no-one mentioning Tomahawks?

Fabulous aircraft for teaching correct technique!:E

[Avgas172]

Why is no-one mentioning Tomahawks?

Fabulous aircraft for teaching correct technique!
Like the lovely little JEM that I had the pleasure of doing an inverted spin over double island in early 1988 with a princely 22 hours in my logbook. If the memory serves me correctly I think the altitude loss was around 2000 ft, the method of recovery was to let everything go until I was in a spiral dive and I was again aware of which way was up. To this day I feel I owe my life to the young NQAC instructor who had demonstrated to me what would happen in the event of a wing drop the previous day and finished with the statement if all else fails leave the aeroplane alone and It will fly itself.
Cheers MR wonder where you are now?

[Brian Abraham]

Using rudder to pick up a wing at the stall was taught to US WWII students. I recall being taught how to pick up a wing with rudder in the early 60s in a Chipmunk by an instructor who had completed a tour of operations in Europe as a Lancaster tail gunner. Maybe it was a demonstration of the effects of controls, at this distance I don't recall.

[kabukiman]

FWIW: I was taught in a pa28 to use the rudder to stop the wing dropping during a stall. The instructor would ask me to perform a stall and recovery, and randomly give the rudder a kick and I'd be expected to use rudder in the opposite direction to control it. I was never taught anything about 'picking up the wing', really all you are doing is steadying it so you can recover

[Brian Abraham]

Have been intrigued by the history of where the use of rudder may have originated. As I mentioned above it was taught to WWII US aviators, but in what context? Perhaps it was just a confidence building exercise associated with operating at the stall.

Interestingly, in delving about I came across a couple of aircraft flight test reports carried in the "Flight" magazine. One of the authors was Wing Commander Maurice Smith, DFC and Bar, who served the duration of the war (3,000 hours), and was a master bomber on Lancasters and Mosquitos. I mention his background to establish that he was obviously no ones fool in aeronautical matters. The following are two such reports from the 1950sPIAGGIO P.149-D
The stall occurs "off the clock," when the nose drops. If the stick is kept back, the aeroplane nods its way down and the slightest easing of the stick puts it into a glide. If a wing goes down, It can be picked up at once with rudder.

PERCIVAL PROVOST
There is, in fact, little difference in the actual stall with flaps up, at take-off position, or down; nor do the strips seem to affect it. They do however, achieve the intended result of giving the necessary stall warning. It is not very great—just a slight buffeting about 5 kt before the gentle, straight drop of the nose, which is followed in turn by the starboard wing going down. Rudder does not readily pick up the right wing in the stall; with flaps down there seems to be less warning than with them up; without knife-edges there is virtually no warning. Recovery is immediate if the controls are centralized. A considerable stick-pull from trimmed normal flight is required to stall the Provost, which in general may be described as docile and conventional in behaviour at the stall.The references to picking up the wing with rudder seems to infer that it was accepted practice at that time. Maybe it was in recognition of the adverse yaw and the fact that ailerons of the period were not required to maintain effectiveness through the stall, as on our modern types.

Some thoughts from a ex F-104, now airshow Pitts aerobatic pilot.Why Should You Care About Adverse Yaw?

When an airplane is flying quickly, the ailerons behave pretty nicely. You roll the aircraft left, and it rotates pretty nicely, with the ball in the center. Engineers have used all sorts of tricks to make that happen – differential ailerons, etc.

But when you slow down, it all falls apart. As a very rough rule of thumb on newer aircraft, on the front side of the power curve, the ailerons behave pretty well. But when the aircraft is slowed down to the bottom and on the back side of the power curve, they can be expected to produce measurable adverse yaw.

Adverse yaw is easy to understand. When you roll the aircraft left, the right aileron goes down into the high pressure air underneath, and pulls the nose right. That’s not good, when you are trying to turn left. Older aircraft have this problem in spades.

This is compensated for with the rudder pedals, which on a modern nosewheel aircraft can be forgotten about most of the time. This isn’t the case when you are flying slowly. When you displace the ailerons for a roll to the left, you must depress the left rudder. When you neutralize the ailerons in the turn, after the desired bank is obtained, you can generally get off the rudders, unless the prop is doing something rude to you.

This is actually pretty simple to understand; just use the ailerons and rudders together, to keep the ball in the center. If in doubt, “step on the ball” to center it.

This lesson is taught in slow flight, but most people fear and hate slow flight. They don’t like how the aircraft feels in slow flight, and they fear stalling, which is too bad.

I like to slow the airplane down until the stall warning is continuously on, and I love spending time with the student doing turns, climbs and descents in slow flight at various power settings, right on the edge of the stall. And sometimes a wing will stall and drop, but that’s no big deal. Just don’t try to “pick it up” with aileron, because the adverse yaw will make you enter a spin. Instead, use the rudder to pick up the downgoing wing, and perhaps decrease the angle of attack with a little forward elevator, as required.

After a while, the student is doing 30 degree banked turns in both directions with the stall warning on. A great confidence and skill-building maneuver!

It’s a pity most people hurry through slow flight, and spend the absolute minimum amount of time on it, because they are going to be in slow flight during every takeoff and landing very close to the ground, so they’d better know how to precisely control the aircraft in slow flight, otherwise bad things can happen.

A good example is a vanilla takeoff – no crosswind, lots of runway. The nose in a prop single will typically yaw left for about a millions reasons, none of which matter very much. What matters is that people learn the lessons of slow flight and use right rudder to bring the nose right.

Unfortunately for many students, who have spent decades driving a car, the learning factor of primary has taught them that when they want the nose of a vehicle to go right, they spin the steering wheel to the right.

And, that’s what they do on takeoff, instead of using right rudder. They crank the control column to the right, which lowers the left aileron into the high pressure beneath the wing. The adverse yaw produced pulls the nose MORE to the left, so they crank the control column to the right even more, which produces even more adverse yaw, which pulls the nose left even more. Sigh.

At this point, I am gibbering like a monkey and fearing for the continued health of the runway lights on the left edge of the runway. This produces a litany from me which sounds something like “rightrudderRightRudderRIGHTRUDDER!”.

Hopefully you can see the importance of mastering slow flight and use of the rudder during the takeoff.

It’s just as important during the landing, too! For example, if there is any crosswind at all, during the landing rollout you should continuously crank the control column (or stick) over into the crosswind, as you slow down. This not only raises the aileron to spoil lift on the upwind wing, but more importantly lowers the aileron on the downwind wing, and the adverse yaw pulls the nose against the weathervaning tendency of the aircraft as it slows down. Groundloops are not cool. This is a great example of how you can use adverse yaw to your advantage, instead of fighting it.

[Old Akro]

Nice post.

[Centaurus]

Nice post.

Agree. But it seems beyond comprehension that the term "pick up the wing with rudder" is interpreted by many as virtually jamming on rudder and keeping the stick dead centre to screw the aeroplane into a skidding wings level attitude. As some posters said, it is a neat way to get into a spin and certainly bloody uncomfortable and a good way of getting airsick.

I am beginning to think that the `picking the wing up with rudder` phrase doesn't mean just that literally. But more like use appropriate amount of rudder in order stop the wing going down further into a spiral dive/spin if no action is taken. At least that what the RAAF was teaching its trainee pilots on all post war courses at Point Cook. Correction: I mean on my particular course in 1951 which was No 8 Post War Pilots course.

In fact, the very first time I flew at age 17 was in a Tiger Moth at Bankstown in mid 1951 and certainly the wings level skidding to pick up a dropped wing was unheard of. Warming up to the subject :E I recall first encountering this stomach churning skidding technique to get the wings level was when I was the RAAF Aero Club Liaison Officer flight testing ATC Flying Scholarship cadets trained by the Royal Victorian Aero Club at Moorabbin in 1960 and I wondered who the hell was teaching this crazy manoeuvre.

[M14_P]

Anyone here fly Tiger Moths regularly? We teach the falling leaf manoeuvre as part of the rating, which is a fantastic coordination exercise involving all of the above. Certainly improve one's footwork that is for sure.

[sheppey]

We teach the falling leaf manoeuvre as part of the rating, which is a fantastic coordination exercise involving all of the above. Certainly improve one's footwork that is for sure.



What a blast teaching "falling leaf" as part of the syllabus of training. Has the NZ CAA really approved that rubbish and exactly how does that improve the ability to fly a Tiger Moth.

I shake my head in dismay at the nonsense taught by flying instructors. The old Tiger Moth is a very good ab-initio trainer if used in the manner it was designed for. But to stuff around with alternate bootfulls of rudder at the point of stall will not only lead to overstressing the control cables but one day might cause one to give way and lead to a nasty result. Stick to teaching basic ab-initio skills - not hoon all over the sky showing off how to emulate a falling leaf. Your students money is better spent on cross-wind landing practice

[Brian Abraham]

Came across a 1930 paper by H. L. Stevens, A.F.R.Ae.S., of the Air Ministry, and working at Martlesham Heath military test establishment.

Genesis perhaps?
Stalled Glide.—The aeroplane is held as steadily as possible for one minute with the tail setting at the negative limit, stick right back, engine off. A recording A.S.I, is carried, and the fluctuations in the record give some idea of controllability in the stalled state.

[Brian Abraham]

Technical Order No. 01-60JD-1 July 1, 1943

Pilot Flight Operating Instructions P-51B-1 Airplane
Recovery from any stall in this airplane is entirely normal, that is, by the release of back pressure on the stick and the application of rudder opposite the dropping wing.

Pilot Training Manual for the Mustang (B & C models, and when the D was just being introduced)
Recovery from any stall is entirely normal. Apply opposite rudder to pick up the dropping wing and release the back pressure on the stick.

[mcgrath50]

But using rudder doesn't mean stamping on it. You are told to pull back on the stick to climb. The pull isn't a yank it's a smooth, slow application to only a small change, hence the old expression 'hold the stick like it was your brothers p&@!$'

Don't see why a rudder application would be any different!

[Old Akro]

We think too much of the stall as a speed and not enough as angle of attack. You can exceed the critical angle of attack at nearly any speed (depending on control authority). Conversely, you can have an angle of attack less than the critical angle at any speed. The video clip from an earlier poster showed this nicely.

If you want to demonstrate a 1 g stall, then the stick movement should be slow and gentle. Otherwise it is a version of an accelerated stall. The stall condition that causes accidents tends to be the one that creeps up slowly and catches pilots by surprise. So the training value is in the 1g stall achieved with gradual control inputs.

There is a good relationship between stick position & angle of attack. Someone writes about this as an aerobatic training technique. I think it is Eric Muller. The stick goes forward to reduce angle of attack, not build up speed. Teaching the stall as a defence against unwittingly stalling, building up speed toward normal cruise is good. But the reality is that the difference only needs to be a couple of knots plus a bit extra to help re-attach the airflow.

[Centaurus]

If you want to demonstrate a 1 g stall, then the stick movement should be slow and gentle.


Correct - according to John Farley the well known British test pilot. During an email exchange with him a few years ago, I mentioned the startling rapidity of the Dakota wing drop with gear and flaps down and some power at point of stall. He replied that was probably due to `hurrying up` the approach to the stall during training where anything can happen if the approach to the manoeuvre is done at anything more than one g.

That explained a lot.

[Centaurus]

Flight Operating Instructions P-51B-1 Airplane


Quote:



Recovery from any stall in this airplane is entirely normal, that is, by the release of back pressure on the stick and the application of rudder opposite the dropping wing.

Pilot Training Manual for the Mustang (B & C models, and when the D was just being introduced)


Quote:



Recovery from any stall is entirely normal. Apply opposite rudder to pick up the dropping wing and release the back pressure on the stick.


Thanks Brian,
Certainly proof postive the term `picking up the wing with rudder" has been in vogue from all those years ago. I think most will agree that in the literal sense, the deliberate skidding of the aircraft until the wings are level is a gross manoeuvre, and I have a hunch that was never the intention of the writer of the Mustang manuals. To keep it in perspective, those writers are probably long since dead or nearing at least 100 years old!:ok:

Certainly that advice is not present in RAAF Publication No. 780 (September 1950) Pilot's Notes for Mustang - Packard Merlin V.1650-3 or V.1650 Merlin 66 and 70.

Maybe the authority who wrote the RAAF Mustang Pilots Notes in 1950 had a differing interpretation from other authorities in USA or elsewhere.

Regardless of the above comments, I must say the thought of skidding the wings level for no useful purpose, has the potential for getting the pilot into a more serious situation than was originally meant. One can just imagine the huge yaw in the opposite direction that will occur where the rudder is now released (once the wings are level).

I am certain the original intention to counter a wing drop at the stall was to simply use sufficient rudder to prevent the aircraft from yawing further and to simultaneously apply power and lower the angle of attack while levelling the wings with aileron. But as always, it is a personal opinion.

[Fflatlander]

Years ago tried a j230d at the stall ( at altitude )- power off full back stick and centred. Just mushed and kept it straight holding off wing drop with rudder alone until I was satisfied that nothing dramatic would happen with stall horn going non stop. Cant remember RoD but nothing dramatic.

[das Uber Soldat]

Ah pprune, if its good for anything its sticking the boot into grade 3s. :rolleyes:

Ex sausage factory here. I've stalled and spun these training aircraft thousands of times. The terms used in the training material of my school and most schools in the BK area (at least at the time) were to pick up the wing with rudder. The intent was never to continue using rudder beyond the point of the actual wing drop to level the wings. Only to arrest the roll and prevent entry into a spin.

Right at the instant that a 152 drops a wing (usually during a power on stall with a bit of help) you can experience a large reduction in the effectiveness of the ailerons or full blown aileron control reversal leading into a fully developed spin. Its in this instant that opposite rudder sufficient to stop the roll is input. Once AoA is reduced and the aircraft is un stalled, the aileron effectiveness returns and the aircraft can be rolled level and recovery completed.

I don't think anyone, even those 'ignorant' grade 3's actually teach that you would continue to use large amounts of rudder beyond that initial wing drop.

[Brian Abraham]

From AP 3456 The Royal Air Force Manual. Bolding mine. I think the instruction recognises that not all aircraft are created equal, and remedial action for wing drop may be type dependant. eg use of aileron on some types to recover a wing drop may only make matters worse, while on others aileron is effective right through the stall.
Stall Recovery

Straight-Wing Aircraft. The recommended recovery action is to ease the control column forward far enough to unstall the wings and to apply up to full power simultaneously, as quickly as engine limitations permit. Care must be taken not to move the control column too far forward otherwise unnecessary height will be lost. If sufficient thrust is available it should only be necessary to move the control column forward slightly, as the thrust will be adequate to accelerate the aircraft to a higher speed and, as stated at para 4, the use of power reduces the stalling speed. If a wing drops, the recovery action given in the Aircrew Manual should be taken. The aircraft must be eased gradually out of the dive following recovery; any attempt to force a return to level flight may induce a g stall and cause a further loss of height.

Swept-Wing Aircraft. The general stalling characteristics of aircraft with swept-back leading edges may differ considerably from those of straight-wing types. The Release to Service and Aircrew Manual should be consulted to check minimum permitted flying speed and whether or not the aircraft is cleared for stalling practice. As on a straight-wing aircraft, as the stall is approached it is usual for the buffet to be felt, increasing in strength as the stall approaches, although the amount of buffet may be barely discernable in some cases. On all swept-wing types it is most important to recover as soon as the initial wing or nose drop occurs. Advice on handling during the approach to the stall, the stall, and stall recovery can be found in the aircrew manual.

[Arm out the window]

The terms used in the training material of my school and most schools in the BK area (at least at the time) were to pick up the wing with rudder

If they only wanted the roll to be arrested, they probably shouldn't have written or perpetuated the words 'pick up the wing with rudder'!

Not trying to knock anyone's background and training here; I'm sure many good and safe pilots have been produced by organisations who had this in their training manuals, but surely if everyone's going "It says this but we actually do that," someone might have got off their arse and got the manual changed...:)

[das Uber Soldat]

From my experience in modern training aircraft, at that initial instant of the wing drop, the rudder will act to help level the wings. Aileron input can do anything from slightly help, to nothing, to making the situation spectacularly worse. I don't think the term is as erroneous as some suggest.

[Arm out the window]

This is my take on what should be taught - not trying to say it's gospel, just what I've learnt and come to believe is sensible:

Rudder should be used to keep the aircraft balanced as far as possible in the approach to the stall, and then if a wing drop is experienced, used to arrest the drop, not pick it back up to wings level.



Aileron input can do anything from slightly help, to nothing, to making the situation spectacularly worse.

Aileron should be used normally up to the point of stall, then control column or yoke centrally forward to unstall, which implies taking out any aileron input if there was one at the point of stall. The reason I wouldn't want aileron used to try and prop a wing up (even though it may well still be effective in some types) is to avoid increasing AoA on the downgoing wing and perhaps autorotating.

Even if that's unlikely with some of the benignly stalling aircraft around, ie ones in which you can play with the aileron all you like in the stall and it'll still work, the basic concept of centralising is still sound, (I reckon at least).

We could probably argue around in circles for ever about it, but in general, I don't think we should advocate 'picking the wing up with rudder', even if the words don't necessarily reflect the intent.

[Old Akro]

Suggest you go an actually try it. Hire an aerobat at your friendly local school.

[Jack Ranga]

If you are an instructor, do an aerobatic endorsement, you can then show your students what stalls are, a total non-event for the types of aircraft they fly. Point out that the only circumstance where a stall will hurt them is if they haven't enough height to recover. You have to really work to make a Cessna stall. Show them the attitudes the aircraft are in at the critical angle in the base and final turn configurations. You are seriously fecking up if you stall inadvertently in these configurations in the aircraft we train in.

Take them up in a Decathlon, show them a spin, tell them that spins are part of aerobatic routines. Show them how to recover by a pre-determined point.

Tell them that when they progress to more advanced types that spin recovery doesn't have to be demonstrated in type certification. That effectively they are a test pilot if they find themselves in a spin scenario.

Teach them stall stick position. If the stall is a critical angle, what primary control will take you to that angle? Why do manufacturers state stall speeds?

[sheppey]

From my experience in modern training aircraft, at that initial instant of the wing drop, the rudder will act to help level the wings

First of all how many years do you go back to describe what is a modern training aircraft? Secondly, I presume you mean that by using the rudder at the instant of wing drop, you have prevented the wing from going down/yawing, any further?

Certainly in that context, you are quite correct in saying that the use of rudder will act to help level the wings.

On the other hand would you agree that the term "picking up the wing with rudder" means by definition a deliberate harsh skidding with rudder until the wings become level? Strictly a vomit inducing manoeuvre to new students:(

[das Uber Soldat]

First of all how many years do you go back to describe what is a modern training aircraft?
Everything from a 30 year old C152 to a 1 year old Boomerang, Liberty and others.

Secondly, I presume you mean that by using the rudder at the instant of wing drop, you have prevented the wing from going down/yawing, any further?
I mean it in the same way as is meant in the many excerpts from reputable sources already shown here. To arrest the rate of roll, prevent yaw into the stalled wing and at least partially recover the roll. Once the aircraft is unstalled and the ailerons regain authority, they are used. In the stalled state, the rudder is used.

Certainly in that context, you are quite correct in saying that the use of rudder will act to help level the wings.

On the other hand would you agree that the term "picking up the wing with rudder" means by definition a deliberate harsh skidding with rudder until the wings become level? Strictly a vomit inducing manoeuvre to new students
It obviously means different things to different people which is where this issue appears to arise. I've already stated what it means for my old flying school which reflects what every school I ever spoke to in Bankstown back in the day taught.
I don't think there is a great deal wrong with with the syllabus. It is more correct to say 'rudder to arrest the yaw' and I wouldn't object if training notes were changed. If we're all on a holy mission to have the wording 'clarified' to more accurately reflect reality, you've got some slightly larger issues to attend to first like 'lift theory' ;)

[Arm out the window]

you've got some slightly larger issues to attend to first like 'lift theory'

How true.

I guess with the wing drop / rudder thing, the overarching idea for me is I don't want to be encouraging people to use lots of rudder with significant backstick at the point of stall, ie pro spin controls.

The 'standard' recovery has you getting unstalled quickly with only enough rudder to control the wing drop, so almost immediately you're able to use aileron again to level the wings and climb away. I imagine most people are doing it this way(?).

[Brian Abraham]

One of the problems with a discussion of this nature is that there is a tendency to proscribe a one solution fitting all scenarios. The few GA manuals I've looked through give no guidance on stall recovery, other than saying they are "conventional". However the following comes from a very widely used non GA aircraft. Note the normal stall use of aileron and rudder. Know your aircraft is the lesson to take away I feel.

Normal Stall

The stall is characterised by a slight nose rise and/or yawing motion in either direction. Recovery from the stall is easily and immediately effected when angle of attack is reduced by positioning the stick forward, maintaining neutral ailerons and making judicious use of rudder to avoid inducing excessive yaw.

Accelerated Stall

Accelerated stalls are preceded by moderate buffet which increases to heavy buffet immediately prior to the stall. Wing rock is unpredictable, but generally progresses to a high frequency, large amplitude roll oscillation. Applying and holding full back stick, even with ailerons and rudder neutral, can result in a spin. Prompt neutralisation of controls will effect recovery from an accelerated stall. Oscillations in yaw and roll, which may be present during recovery, should be allowed to damp themselves out and should not be countered with ailerons or rudder.

I mentioned the startling rapidity of the Dakota wing drop with gear and flaps down and some power at point of stall.An issue noted in one DC-3 flight manual I've seen Centaurus. I've seen it written that the pointed wing tips and the associated low Reynolds numbers provoked tip stall. Also given as the reason landings in the flight manual recommended a tail down wheeler. Unless you were very, very good, attempts at three pointing were guaranteed to end in disaster. The de Havilland types with pointed wing tips I gather were also noted for poor stalling characteristics due tip stall.

[Old Akro]

A stall is a stall is a stall is a stall.

Stalls occur at a critical angle of attack - not a speed. You can achieve the critical angle of attack at a wide range of speeds.

There seem to be some fundamental misunderstandings. Stick & Rudder, The Naval Aviators manual on aerodynamics and Miliken's book on the history of aerodynamics are all worthy books to be on every pilots bookshelf. I suggest getting one and brushing up.

If you have a deeper curiosity, the NASA Langley library allows on-line search & access of a vast number of papers. It is a modern wonder. They even have English translation of twenties German papers on aerodynamics availablefor anyone to download.

An accelerated stall (ie done at greater than +1g) can get the wing deeper into the condition of separated flow, so the symptoms (eg buffet) are a bit stronger.

When did we stop teaching this? :ugh:

I agree with Jack, but in my era you didn't need an aerobatic endorsement for stalls or spins. It was part of the normal syllabus.

An hour in an aerobat will run around $250. An hour of straight stalls, dirty stalls, turning stalls, accelerated stalls, very slow flying, falling leaf and a couple of spins would have a great deal of value.

[prospector]

From.
Flight Briefing for Pilots. Volume 1 H.H.Birch & A.E.Bramson.

The fully developed stall.

Due to manufacturing inaccuracies and particularly on aeroplanes with highly tapered wings it is usual for one wing to stall slightly before the other. The early stalling wing will drop first causing the relative airflow to approach from below, thus still further increasing its angle of attack and stalling that wing even more. Fig 60 shows that concurrent with these developments the upgoing wing partially unstalls because its relative airflow comes from above. If allowed to develop the nose will swing towards the lower wing because of increased drag on the fully stalled wing and weathercock action. All the conditions for a spin would then apply. An attempt to raise the wing with aileron would merely aggravate the situation since in the case illustrated the left aileron would be depressed. Such action would in effect further increase the angle of attack and make matters worse. When a wing drops during a stall, yaw must be prevented by application of opposite rudder, and the wings levelled after flying speed has been regained.

And there you have it, without the very good diagrams that come with the book. Was very true with DH82's, PA18's and Austers which were the predominant types ( at aero clubs) at the time.

[Arm out the window]

An accelerated stall (ie done at greater than +1g) can get the wing deeper into the condition of separated flow, so the symptoms (eg buffet) are a bit stronger.

When did we stop teaching this?


We didn't.


I agree with Jack, but in my era you didn't need an aerobatic endorsement for stalls or spins. It was part of the normal syllabus.

Still is.

[Centaurus]

Unless you were very, very good, attempts at three pointing were guaranteed to end in disaster

Perhaps the following reply to the above should be placed in Spectator Corner forum. In the late Fifties, TAA (the chief pilot of the day, that is) decided that TAA pilots should always go for three-point landings in the DC3.
As you rightly observed, three-pointing a DC3 while in theory pretty to admire if nothing went wrong, has its problems particularly if the hold-off wasn't spot on and the tail-wheel touched first. It took fancy rudder and brake work to stop a potential ground loop if that happened. Been there done that. Moreover the technique could be deadly in a cross-wind.

On the other hand the opposition airline (Ansett (?) was more pragmatic and its pilots invariably did tail-high wheel landings which were easier to perform, and a must in crosswinds.

In my era Townsville Runway 02 was in a different position to where it is now. Then it was very close to the RAAF control tower and adjacent RAAF hangars of No 10 Squadron which had a Dakota, Wirraway and Lincolns.

The tower operator was RAAF. When a TAA DC3 was close to final approach he would occasionally lean over the rail of the tower and call to the airmen below that TAA was coming in. Airmen and aircrew like myself would wander outside to watch the impending gyrations of the TAA DC3 with great amusement. A great cheer would go up from the watching ghouls as the first screetching of tyres was seen and heard on the attempted three point touch down. It was just like watching a drive-in movie.

When Ansett were coming in, RAAF airmen couldn't be bothered to watch as the inevitable tail-high wheeler was such a Ho Hum event. It took several months before TAA management got the message from its crews that DC3's were not Tiger Moths, where three-pointers were the norm. After that TAA went the tail high wheeler way and that was a real disappointment to the RAAF erks.