Pay Deal 2002!

[expediter]

Does anyone know anything?

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

What I DO know is that some BA staff who were put on part-time working have now been told to return to full-time in the coming weeks. Strikes me that this is yet another sign of "airline recovery" so I've no doubt that we'll get a monster pay rise any time at all...

[radar707]

Last I heard, still no money in the kitty, 911 has wiped NATS out, not even a cost of living rise by all accounts which is somewhat depressing, but no doubt Prospect will once again fight the great fight and get everything they can and then not even bother to ask if we're willing to accept it, if we're really luck, TAG will throw in some bonuses for extra movements:mad: :mad: :mad:

[Big Nose1]

radar707,
don`t know about you but having been an IPCS, IPMS, Prospect member for 12 years i have always had a vote on each years pay offer...as i believe all ATCO`s had. We may not agree that the pay offer was good but if the majority vote to accept then we have to get on with life, part of being a free society and all that.

[Buster the Bear]

So NATS staff then are paying for PPP if there is no money in the kitty for a rate of inflation rise!

Bet the staff are well annoyed. Do you think wool is being pulled over the eyes of the unions by management?

[expediter]

Apparently traffic levels are only down 1% on this time last year! So I don't really see how the Sep 11 argument comes in to the equation!!

[Grasscutter]

Do you not think that now is the time to stand up or shut up. Ask the union to ballot for industrial action, if the answer comes back NO then lets all bow down to management, accept peanuts, kiss any pay rise goodbye. If we don't stand now we never will.

[radar707]

Big Nose, yes I have voted in the pay ballots over the years, my complaint was over more recent events which quite frankly annoyed me!!
I'm not a union basher, I've been a member since my cadet course, and I intend to stay a member through thick and thin, and I know the reps do a difficult job in their own time (quite often for no thanks) However I do feel that the membership should be consulted on ALL issues relating to pay and conditions instead of the "It's the best we could hope to have got so we took it" argument

[j17]

Ref this years pay round

If no pay rise worthy of talking about,why not treat the companies within TAG to,

no direct rouetings
no straight in approaches
no slot busting ie slot missed by 15minutes back to stand
no gut busting climbs let them level off for a while

basically if they screw us we screw them

[Cuddles]

There's only one way we'll know we're getting a pay rise.

We'll all receive a memo from Richard Everett distributed via internal communications saying we're not getting a bean.

On a more serious note, I believe that there IS some money available, but only for a 2 of 3 yr deal.

Sound familiar?

[expediter]

Statement due in the next couple of weeks, don't hold your breath! At last time for Prospect to look after us...................:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[nodelay]

Expediter

Do you really think prospect will look after you?

"We're bigger and better than before. Our voice is louder and will be heard further afield........" Yeah right. Can you see some nuclear reactor worker or a government researcher going out on strike in over air traffic controllers pay. I think not.

Give us a dedicated union, even if the subs go up. You know you want it!!!!!:D

[BEXIL160]

I'm reliably informed that Canadian controllers have made an approach to NATCA (The US National Air Traffic Controllers Association) for membership as their own representatives seem to be on a Par with our own (No)Prospect.

This is being looked on favourably.

This isn't Pie in the Sky. NATCA is strong, REALLY looks after it's members, and gets deeply invloved in FAA projects that affect them. The NERC font size fiasco would not have been allowed to happen out there. They similarly have made VERY effective use of the media, ALPA, and lobbyists to hold back Privatisation.

Perhaps it's time we went global, and made an approach to NATCA? It would give us access to a massive (and effective) ATC union. The down side. It would be DEEPLY unpopular with NATS management. So it gets my vote.

Any thoughts?

BEX

[foo fighting]

Bex,

Got to say that your idea is the line we should be following, remember the rumours of atco's & BALPA ?

V. disappointed about the merger of IPMS into Prospect last year. I am sure that it would be pretty hard to find a workforce as powerful as ATC in Britain. As an atco (TC for 7 years) with experience of the normal 'business' world, I still cannot believe that we are not earning fortunes. Sorry if this controversial but, a valid area atco is bloody gold dust.

Not being greedy but it is about time that we were not represented by a 'union' with all its historic values but by an association that knows that its members are the balles de chien and deserve a decent wedge.

The alternative.

Many of the newly valid guys and gals will look at atc as a s**t career option and just treat it as a stepping stone to something else. Not what it should be.




TIME FOR THE UNION TO SHOW ITS TRUE COLOURS ?????

[Hand Solo]

Good God! Don't try to join BALPA! Reading this thread is like listening to BA management speak - 'there's no money', 'you must work harder', '911 has been very bad for us', 'record management bonuses - oh sorry I wasn't meant to read that!'. By the sounds of it BALPA would achieve exactly the same as your current union - nothing!

[2 six 4]

I hear the guys in Scotland had a couple of big pay meetings last week in advance of Tuesday's meeting with management. How come we don't have any meetings ? What was said ?


:confused: :confused:

[radar707]

The latest I've had from my union rep is that management are looking towards a 2 year deal with next to nothing this year (2/3%) and then something approaching double figures next year.
All well and good is said financial situation is true, however, traffic levels have risen significantly post 911, oceanic traffic is virtually at pre 911 levels (or so I'm told), and MANAGEMENT HAVE BEEN PAID THEIR BONUSES (allegedly).
So where do we go from here?Personally I believe that we deserve a whole lot better than 2/3% we were moving more traffic pre 911 and levels are building up now ready for a summer that I personally believe will be beyond capacity.
The fact that management have been paid their bonuses (allegedly) means that somewhere the money exists.
Maybe NATS managment deserve their bonuses, after all they "motivated" us into not introducing flow into sectors that were virtually overloaded, they "motivated" us into moving more traffic at the Scottish airports!!!
We as Controllers are grossly underpaid, city whizzkids earns double, treble what we earn plus bonuses in the millions, they are bot responsible for the lives of more people in a working day than a doctor is in a year!!
We deserve better and should fight for it

[Wigglet]

Let's review some cold clear facts.

The report in the Mail on Sunday today is, I will bet my bottom dollar, inspired by a deliberate leak of mis-information and negative spin from NATS management. If it's not, I expect a letter from our CEO to appear in the Daily Mail sometime this week correcting the inaccuracies reported today. Nothing less will be satisfactory. Hell will no doubt freeze over first.

Let's stop all this moaning on websites and behind restroom doors. Let's once and for all stand up for what we believe we are worth.

For the doubting Thomas's amongst us, consider these facts:

UK ATCOs are the SECOND WORST paid in the whole of Euope.

Top of the Spanish scale is approaching 120,000 GBP

Portugese ATCOs retire at 48 (yes, FORTY EIGHT) on FULL PAY.

French ATCOs are contracted to work 26 hours per week.

I am fed up to the back teeth about being told by our Union representatives (and some of them really ought to look up the meaning of that word) that we really shouldn't rock the boat too much.

We have missed opportunity after opportunity through apathy, misinformation and localised xenophobia in the past.

We are a grossly underpaid, hard working team of professionals who, when it comes to standing up for our beliefs and our rights, lack the backbone to do anything constructive.

Another 2 year deal would be likened to the donkey chasing the ever elusive carrot. WHY are perrenially promised the jam tomorrow ???

For God's sake wake up and smell the coffee.

[hatsoff]

Well said.
A whisper around here says the Union Guys expect us to roll over for a small settlement.
I hope that isn't true.

[Ahh-40612]

Ye Gods - Rumblings from north of Hadrian's Wall!!!!

Not enough dosh to build the new turret for the Ayrshire castle, dredge the moat and re-stock with Koi??
( Some could be shipped north from a certain lake near Hamble !! )

Traditionally, we south of Watford have apparently always been reasonably interested in taking some form of action over crap pay deals but have been democratically out-voted by the rest of the country being fat, dumb and happy - probably not a PC phrase anymore!!! - but who cares?

Last few mornings have been totally manic at times at Nerc and I can see no more evidence of the 911 effects. Indeed many US carriers now have more transatlantic flights planned, or actually flying, than last summer.

If a large % pay rise cannot be negotiated then pehaps the union should try other areas to make up the gap.

Unsocial hours payment is now such a paltry amount ( about 5% I believe ) - surely this should be at least doubled ??

Might help sweeten the path for all these rumoured very early morning starts.

OJTI payments are woeful in comparison to a training Captain in the airlines. Another potential area for discussion and action.

[Warped Factor]

Here's the Mail on Sunday article (http://www.thisismoney.com/20020414/nm46857.html) mentioned by Wigglet.

WF.

[Wigglet]

Well, the silence is absolutely deafening.

Thanks for posting the link WF :p

Wigglet

[radar707]

The article in the mail is pretty much what has been said in the April NATS News (centrefold) (not quite what I expected from a centrefold though!!)
We at the sharp end all know that traffic levels have been down, but by heck are they increasing, I've never been as busy as I was today and by all accounts it will get busier, BAA are predicting exponential growth at the Scottish airports this year, airlines are using larger aircraft to cope but using more of them, so whats the problem here??
Yes the company suffered post 911. Yes the company wasn't in a great financial situation pre 911, however you get what you pay for, NATS doesn't pay anywhere near enough for the professional controllers it employs, it's about time that we took the time out to say to TAG, we deserve better and are prepared to fight for it.
A 2 year deal is about as useful as the bonuses we were promised, take a little now and hope for more later?????
FORGET IT, the money won't be there and the get out clause that TAG will sneak in will rear it's ugly head!!
We nee to stand TOGETHER on this issue, it's the only way it will ever be resolved

[Mini Blue]

Just heard the details, what rubbish, 2.2% this year and some rpi linked thing next. Its an insult to our intelligence if nothing else. Traffic levels are rising, 9/11 is no longer an excuse, two year deal no way.

[The Truth]

2 year deal? 2/3 percent this and double-digits next? Remember the non paid out "guaranteed" bonus fiasco!

If its got to be a 2 year deal then it has to be the double-digit rise this year and the 2/3 next..... now pass me that Spanish phrasebook :D

[emlis]

This is a pay cut not a rise - and as an added insult we're being offered less than SRG. North of the border the word is colleagues down south aren't too bothered and there isn't the stomach for a fight???? Last weeks pay meeting at Scottish was very well attended and showed the troops have had enough. What's the attitude elsewhere?

[fish food]

Warning!!! - NATS will never be held to the RPI+ % formula for the Year-2 element if we roll over on this one. Some excuse will surface 6-8 months hence to get Prospect back round the negotiating table and we'll get sha**ed again.

"NO WAY 2 YEAR PAY!"

To cap it all, underlying inflation is now up at 2.3% and 'Gormless Gordon and his Big Tax Band' are about to strike up a happy tune, so lets hear it for the pay cut in real terms!

:mad: :mad: :mad:

emlis - don't forget SRG remains 'Civil Service' - NATS on the other hand lives in the "real world"!;)

[Wigglet]

Well, wasn't that totally predictable.

I just heard the same, and I'm so bloody fuming, it's a surprise I drove home safely.

What incenses me even more is a conversation I had with someone who shall remain nameless, but who is significantly important within the union.

XXX "We're disappointed, but it's the best on offer."

Me "But it doesn't reflect what everyone was hoping for."

XXX "Well, if we asked for what people wanted, management would dig their heels in and we'd get nowhere"

Me "So, are we being represented? The mood is very different here and on PPRUNE"

XXX "I don't read PPRUNE, it annoys me because it's driven on by a few militant arseh0les who cause trouble at every opportunity. We have to be realistsic; NATS and TAG are on the ropes."

Me "Do you really think you can sell such a deal ?"

XXX "I think most people understand there's no money and we're lucky to get anything.."

Please, someone, tell me where any REPRESENTATION of ATCOs wishes is being reflected in the negotiations, because at the moment, I get confused whether I'm speaking to my union rep. or just another NATS talkpiece.

Wigglet

[fish food]

Wigglet - Worrying in the extreme, but sadly the impression I get is that our TU guys don't get much support from Prospect at a National level. I doubt very much that Prospect will take on a Labour Govt. and TAG for the benefit of 1.5% of its overall membership, especially given the high earning status of those members compared to other professions represented in the union. (I suspect NATS mgt. are of the same opinion).

Perhaps we should look towards those with experience in the "real world" when it comes to dealing with the airlines, i.e. BALPA, (New Zealand's ATCOs are members of NZALPA, nzalpa.org.nz (www.nzalpa.org.nz), see "about"), in securing a better deal, if they'd have us of course.

Best to wait for the official line as to what happens next I guess. Who knows, Prospect may recommend we vote against and stand up and be counted. Or then again, perhaps not!:rolleyes:

---------------------------

invertibrates of the world rise up and unite

[PEAWEE]

its about time we showed management that we are not going to accept such a crap offer that amounts to a pay cut. It seems to me that the first time we are not constrained by the 'treasury pay guidlines' , civil servants get much more than we used to or have now been offered. Does this mean the average

ATCO IS PAYING FOR PRIVATISATION!

Somone in or union should tell management that they are not paying use for last year, and the subsequent fall in traffic, but for this year and what i am sure will be a big rise in traffic. All this on new equipment which we did not recive enough training on.:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

[Cuddles]

What's the difference between Prospect and a chocolate teapot?


You could eat the teapot.

My powder is dry, and has been for ages. I have a match, and the time has come to put the two together. We've been saying "Let's just accept this one, because we can't be arsed with the hassle, we'll kick up a stink next year" the time has come to stand up for what we know and believe to be true. Anyway 18 months valid on T&D, with another 8 to go before the proper payscale, it's the only payrise I'm going to get.

Have a think about Industrial Action, figures used are, I believe representative, but have been plucked oout of the air (I'm on leave, and haven't got the access to the actual numbers)

Earning 30K ish, that's just over £60 a day after tax. A 2% payrise equates to about £400 a year after tax. Let's say we successfully campaign for a 5% payrise. This will bring about £1000 a year after tax. That's 9 or 10 days industrial action paid for.

BUT

The gains made are not just for this year, they're for the rest of your life, increased earnings and pension payments from the moment you put your foot down. With 30 years service ahead of you that £600 extra actually becomes nearer to £20 to 25 THOUSAND pounds, with pension on top. :eek:

Makes you think

Tell your friends

And your managers (After all, this applies to them too, unless they've negotiated an individual contract)

[unwise]

Wigglet:

Are you the only one who feels this strongly at EGCC or is this the general feeling? I know that SCATCC are p***ed off, but I can't help feeling LACC who although, moan regularly in the canteen will let the side down. I want to try to gauge the feeling around the country as opposed to individuals.

By the way what would you realistically settle for?:confused:

[Wigglet]

Unwise

I couldn't speak for the rest of the unit, but my perception is that that there has been a groundswell in opinion that enough is enough.
It's just my own personal observation, but people who I have always considered to be in the job 'for the duration' have even themselves started voicing their dissent and even talk of getting out.

Some union reps might consider us just a load of arsey rabble rousers on here, but I have a genuine fear that NATS management of old and now TAG have pushed us right to the edge of a precipice over which some of its loyal staff might jump and never return.

Wigglet

[Wigglet]

My personal hopes ??

Here goes,

A significant rise in UHP (atleast 10%)
A rise in basic of between 12 and 15%
NO 2 year deal
A commitment to reviewing operational scales
10% of individual's basic paid on top if OJTI

May as well aim high....no other bu99er seems to be, but it's nothing less than we deserve. :p

[terrain safe]

If the union say we should accept this shoddy deal, it really is time to change unions or set up our own. If the HQ are not prepared to back industrial action then what are they there for? Us or their own careers? I've had enough, I've voted against the last 6 or 7 pay deals believing that they do not offer us what we are worth, if this one goes through as well I think I might as well pack up and go home. WE ARE BEING SH*FTED AGAIN

[OrsonCart]

Look, I never asked Smiler and Brown to part privatise NATS, the use of Sept 11th is cruel on all who worked so hard in order to help our airline owners.

If you actually think the pay offer is the best that NATS can offer, don't vote for industrial action. Simple! Too much wool being pulled over too many eyes.

We are now liberated from central government, so even thicker bull@hit now exists. NATS HR dept tells the unions it cant afford a worthy pay rise, unions capitulate!

NO WAY SAY THE MEMBERSHIP!

Or do they.

Just ask yourself, what bonus are the seniors on if they con the staff that NATS cannot afford a pay rise? A bl@@dy huge one!

If you think you're worth it, VOICE IT!

[foo fighting]

An open post to any and every atco that is also a Prospect rep.

From the above it seems you should be aware of what you know you are going to be told over the next few days/weeks.

Save yourselves and us, remember that you are one of us, all the hassle, light the exceedingly arid powder and set it up for a big no vote.

Fishfood - I am told by many sources that IPMS/Prospect spent a lot of cash on anti-PPP, obviously appreciated, but very much lack the stomach for any fight for its "well"paid members.

As many have written and will say, time for some very big decisions, not least on those who choose to represent us

[PA7]

Cuddles
I couldn't agree more
Terrain Safe
From what I have heard this is managements final offer, the Reps have now got to consult with all members and pass the feedback back to the Section Chairs, a unanimous no vote from the members would send a strong signal, then we have to hope that the union has the balls to finally start putting on the pressure. I am sure that if they were prepared to go to the wire, management would find the extra cash. The trouble is we are seen as a soft touch, we were walked over with PPP and did nothing. We were walked over with pensions and again did nothing. Now we are going to be walked over with pay and I'm sure management are quaking in their boots waiting for our response. :mad:

[Wigglet]

Back to the top; let's not allow this one to die. :cool:

[2 six 4]

Thank you negotiators for extracting as much as you could during difficult negotiations.

Please hurry up with the ballot so the ATCOs can vote and ensure it has a clear explanation that voting against this means you wish to proceed with an urgent ballot on strike action.

This, as I believe Mr Maghee might have said,ISthe year.

:( :(

[120.4]

I too would like to say thank you to the negotiators for extracting as much as they could.

Unwise: In the single duty I have done since news of the offer broke I have not heard a single voice at LTCC support it; in fact the attitude seems to be quite hard and angry.

If we are to be accurately represented, the reps need to understand how we feel and what we require of them. They will also need to know how far we are willing to back up our claims so that they can talk to management from a position of strength (as they could to the government over SERCo). To that end anybody who feels strongly must speak up.

We have gained a reputation for being soft. If we are to obtain appropriate and fair recognition of over a decade's hard work (not to mention the coming years), we need to make managment believe we are serious. For as long as they are sure we won't take serious industrial action we will not make progress. It is said that when Cortez reched the New World he burned is ships, thus his men were well motivated and success was their only option.

Success here will not come without similar committment.

Point 4

:)

[Wigglet]

Just to put our offer into perspective, here's a story taken off Ceefax this afternoon:

"Firefighters' leaders have called for a huge pay rise for staff amid warnings of strikes if the claim is not made.

Fire Brigades Union officials agreed to press for the current 21,531GBP salray to rise to 30,000GBP for firefighters and control room staff.

The union argued that the service's pay formula was now "well out of date" and should be replaced.

The pay rise demand will be presented to employers on Friday"

[information_alpha]

From what i can gather Mgt and Prospect only started talking pay deals again recently. This seems to be quite a quick offer from Mgt, they are to clever to show their hand so soon, i reckon there is still money in the kitty to be a back-up if we all say no. So at the vote, reject it, and lets see what they do then....... :D

[information_alpha]

Out of a matter of interest, would any non-NATS atco's around the country like to say what their payrise was this year?????

[Grasscutter]

If we are called to vote on this pay proposal then we just don't have a union. It's as simple as that:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

[Asda]

As just a normal pleb from Swanwick I can't find a single ATCO who supports this offer. Most are pretty angry about it. Obviously there are a lot of local issues which colour people's attitude and make it a poor environment to start asking people to be 'understanding' when it comes to pay. People think they're taking the p***. I can't see LACC getting even close to accepting this one.

[tug3]

I had to read the staff notice before I could believe this one, the best yet even by any stretch of the imagination!

What concerns me is those guys, (not me I hasten to add), at the top of the scale who don't get an annual increment. These guys are the ones I hear regularly say they'll never down tools over pay. (House paid off, kids grown up and left home... you know the type). However, have they considered that under this deal they will be getting paid less cash in real terms to push more tin in 2002/3 than they did in 2001!

2002: RPIX+0% = 2.2%

(Bank of England expected average by 2002 Quarter 4 to be 2.2%*)

2003: RPIX+1% or 3.7%, whichever greater.

(Bank of England expected average by 2003 Q4 to be 2.4%*)

*Based on nominal interst rate of 4%, "likely to edge up to 5% or above over the next year or so":

www.bankofengland.co.uk/inflationreport/ir02feb6.pdf

Given National Insurance contributions are up by 1%, our net increase in real terms is RPI of X% of sweet f-a! i.e. When you deduct the NI increase your looking at a likely 0.3% increase above the underlying rate of inflation over the next two years. What a bonus!!!

Are those 'fat, dumb and happies' at the top of the scale thinking long and hard about this? I hope your thought process is looking like:

:) :confused: :eek: :( :mad:

----------------------

I'll see you at the front gate, bring a donkey jacket

[Big Nose1]

Emlis,
dont be sidetracked by the usual management technique of divide and conquer. If we are against the deal then we should vote as we see fit, ignore any efforts to tell you the rest of the country will vote yes.
Grasscutter,
yes lets vote and show management how we feel.
Bottom line is the Public service are getting much better deals than this, we were told private service would get us the pay we deserved and it aint. Management are taking the p......

[OrsonCart]

The thing that really pi@@es me off with the whole pay negotiation saga is that fact that the last pay offer was imposed even though 75%? of the staff vetoed it. The union stance was that we should focus on PPP, keep our powder dry, then go for a substantial claim in this current round. The only union brief on these negotiations bluntly says take it or take industrial action. The tactic of NATS HR of releasing the offer made to the staff prior to any union broadcast and prior to the actual meeting with the unions later last Tuesday has caused both unions to be seen as toothless. A thought that probably has not gone unnoticed by NATS senior managers!

[left outer, right inner]

Lets just hope that this is not going to be a case of everyone slagging off this offer, and then rolling on our backs.

For example, everyone says that they will make it to your party, but then only a few people turn up and the others have made all kinds of excuses to get out of the commitment!

I fear that this will be the case. How many out there are REALLY prepared to get out there and make a stand? Seriously?

The unions simply cannot be relied upon, because as we all know, they are not able to negotiate at all effectively, whether it is their interests or ours at stake. They do what we have done before and just role on their backs!

So what is it to be? Fires in the oil drums or carry on with the effective 0.3% increase in real terms?

Air Traffic Control is a great environment, but......

regards everyone

LORI

[nippa]

I have little confidence that our Union has the backbone/political will or personalities capable of calling for Industrial Action.

They failed to prevent Privatisation and they've failed to maintain the profession's earnings level against comparable occupations. Margaret Thatcher abandoned the Pay Research Unit in the early 80s and from that point our salary has fallen year by year.

These TAG proposals are a challenge Prospect must counter head on.
If TAG can't agree to reach out to fulfil our aspirations , so be it.
My powder is dry , I also have a match , let's light it.

[fish food]

Would the union take a NO vote to mean an intention to take industrial action? Or would it require a further ballot? Anyone enlighten me as to the rules?

Just a thought, but 'industrial action' dooesn't necessarily mean standing at front gates around burning oil drums. Don't know about the airfields but at the centres the voluntary extraneous duties that people undertake are generally what keeps the operational machine oiled.

If technical committees, workshops, discussion groups, safety surveys, 'New Horizons' projects etc. were to suddenly dry up of personnel not a whole lot would get done. As far as I'm aware, the majority of ops staff who participate in such things do so principally out of good will and a desire to see real improvements in what we do and how we go about doing it.

If NATS doesn't come up with a better offer, shouldn't we see the spring from which this good will flows will dry up? Or better still, be blocked off in an organised manner by positive union action on behalf of its membership. If working to rule means no more 'e-g's then so be it. Lets play some hard-ball for a change.

[120.4]

One of the problems we have is that it is not just the ATCOs who are involved in accepting/rejecting this offer. If I understand correctly, other sections will be invloved too.

I have to be a bit careful how I put this because I don't wish to offend those without whom we just cannot function:

Were we to have a 5% increase in traffic this year which of the staff would see a 5% increase in their workload? Some sections won't and may therefore feel this offer is okay, given the economic circumstances of the last 6 months, PPP, 9/11 etc. So when it comes to a vote (if we have to have one) there is a danger that it will be swayed by those at quieter units or in sections which don't directly face the fury of the traffic. And that is fine for them but maybe it reflects where the pain is being felt and attention needs to be focused. Therefore...

Is it unreasonable to suggest that if the ballot shows a significant sectional difference it is time to separate the claims to allow those sections which are feeling the pain to persue unhindered fair remuneration? If the argument against this is that without the strength of the ATCOs section others' bargaining power is reduced then they need to remember that when it comes to the vote and take their lead from us.

I reiterate that all sections are essential to the satisfactory functioning of NATS but clearly some are not suffering as others.



:)

Point 4

[StoneyBridge Radar]

Reading 160's poll, I am staggered that, already there are signs that some people are prepared to swallow the sob story being presented to them about NATS' financial standing.

Either that or it's
a/ self-smug top of the scalers who couldn't care a flying f***
b/ suits voting
c/ I've really lost the plot and mis-read 2-3% when we have actually been offerred 23% ??!!!!!!!

Stoney

[Captain Spunkfarter]

I don't know wether to laugh or cry at this proposal. When a colleague first told me I thought he was taking the p*ss. The next morning I thought it had all been a very bad dream. Then I got up and watched Trisha, and reality set in.

Keep stopping your union rep and telling him/her that this is totally unacceptable. That's the only way to make your monthly subscription worth anything - representation .

Oh, and whoever took part in the poll on this forum and voted that the NATS pay deal was acceptable:

YOU SPINELESS B*STARDS

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

[OrsonCart]

Calculations of salary post Brown's budget abound.

With a freeze on tax thresholds, a 1% tax on all earnings for NI contributions (I am not knocking it) etc!

I am on the top of the scale, fat, dumb and happy. With the forecast RPI figures published by HM Govt, I will be out of pocket by around 2%.

I AM NOT PAYING FOR PPP!

If this means me voicing my anger to my local rep, I will!

Give up LCE, OJTI, detachments, etc and that is not even industrial action!

Anyone like to compile a list of thigs that we do as ATCO's that we can stop doing with little cost to us financially that we are prepared to forgo, that do not infringe our contract of employment

[j17]

TUG 3

are you really an atco or something else? what is your post trying to achieve? I am at the top of the scale with a mortgage ,car loan,2 kids living at home and i am not fat,dumb and happy .Stop trying to divide the troops by totally inaccurate and offensive descriptions of you so called colleagues.

[Scott Voigt]

Howdy;

Sorry I haven't posted to this, but I have been in meetings out of town...

For those who asked.

On this side of the Atlantic, we get 10% differential to base pay for working evenings ( I think it is 1800 to 0600 but am not positive.) and then we get 25% differential for working on Sundays... Our pay went up 4.5% or there abouts ( a bit different for different parts of the country ) this last January for cost of living changes. We were not expecting that much but congress passed it.

Our pay scales I posted last year. If you want them again, I could go and try to find them again...

regards

[C U JIMMY]

Have we all of a sudden become like dirt on he feet of management?
Do they really think they can get away with this, whilst still maintaining that we should be more f**king "company spirited"
When I read this joke I nearly exploded in the ops room and was almost unable to carry on with my job due to the sheer amount of rage welling up inside me.
This is it chaps, we must take no more of this bulls*it.
If industrial action is what it takes then so be it
I for one will not stand for this sh*te any more
:mad: :mad: :mad:

[Ayr-Rage]

I do not understand how anyone at the top of the scale could ever be happy with this offer.
Those below it at least have an annual increment to look forward to, and will be taking more money home, whereas those at the top are looking at a reduction in take home pay in real terms come April 2003.
As I am sure this offer did not take into account any of the budget changes, I think the best place for it is in the bin !
It's time for a fight......

[Findo]

Fish Food. The union reps will explain quite clearly that a vote against the final offer is also likely to trigger a ballot on industrial action if management do not increase the offer. As they are saying they will not offer anything else this is likely to be their last offer.

Nice idea about withdrawing co-operation / participation etc. Very similar to those who propose a training ban as a form of industrial action. In both circumstances any individual refusing to carry out such "normal" activities is likely to be pressured by management and possibly suspended from work or subject to disciplinary action. What then do all the rest of us do ? If a ballot has only specified a withdrawal of goodwill or a training ban then we cannot legally go out on strike. We would have to hold another ballot for strike action to support a suspended or disciplined colleague.

The most effective message is a ballot for all out strike action. That is the extreme you may have to contemplate to win against the Government who are NATS major shareolders and not likley to sit quietly in the background. If you vote for it you must be prepared to take such a drastic move. If you vote against it sends a clear signal of your unwillingness to go to that extreme stage.

120.4 makes a good point about the joint nature of the pay offer. It is to all NATS staff and not a particular Union or Branch. The ballot may be held so the results are known by Union and Branch. As part of the claim was for a specific ATCO's Branch claim (and this was not addressed ) it would be reasonable that the ATCOs opinions were clearly identified in the ballot.

Interesting times ahead.

P.S At the top of the scale many years ago. 2 Kids at Uni and a very large mortgage until I retire so I take more than a little umbrage at the fat dumb and happy comments by some others.

[expediter]

Is it time to use up all that gunpowder we've been keeping dry???:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Expeditedescent]

As everyone seems so unhappy, I assume then that there will be a large turnout at the (NO)Prospect pay meetings to discuss this years offer?

These are on all this week at TC.........

Or will it be the usual case of all talk but no action and there will be a handfull of people who bother to turn up?
Come on everyone, if this is as important as we are all suggesting, lets get to these meetings and make our voices forcibly heard, and leave the BEC in NO DOUBT as to where the membership stands.

Just as an aside on ATCO apathy........my watch rep recently had a sign on the door for all ATCOs to give him their views and aspirations, so he could pass them on to the BEC..........our chance to tell the Union exactly what we wanted.

He got 4 replies....................

I want to reject this offer and fight the fight, but I am expecting it to go the way of previous years where we just roll over and accept the offer.........shame because if we never stand up, people like me with 20+ years left to go will never get a decent award. This really HAS to be the final stand.

[1261]

Just out of interest, what do you think constiutes a "reasonable offer"? We discussed this on the night shift yesterday and couldn't really come up with a (sensible!) figure.

Any ideas?

[Undercover]

I hate to rain on your tirade... but don't you think you have to try living in the real world?...

Like it or not... believe it or not... there is simply not the funds available for a larger pay increase.

Fact: The company is CRIPPLED by debt.

Fact: The banks run the show and only the banks. Management, TAG etc. have little say.

I've heard some suggest a 10% rise is reasonable... c'mon. We'd all love it but get real. Consider a company paying out millions a month just to cover the interest payments on debt dumped on them by an inept government. Consider a company of approx 4500 employees with an average salary of £30k. A 10% pay rise would equate to an extra £13.5 million on to the wage bill. When cashflow is your main problem that's pretty damn suicidal economics.

I personally fought hard against PPP and I have to say this is a direct result of the mess that the whole debacle left us in. It's not fair that the guys on the floor have to suffer for the management and government mistakes but I'm affraid life isn't always fair and there is no magic pot of money there to redress the balance.

As to the point made about the different areas in NATS and their respective ballots and differing situations. The point is well made that all areas function together and none of them could function without the others. I appreciate the job of the controller is a busy, skilled and stressful one... but some of the people you suggest may be taking life easier are the ones who have to spend 12, 14 or 16 hour days working out how to keep an impoverished company functioning and make sure all you guys get paid at all!! Lets not start pointing fingers at each other. The agreement is if any area rejects the deal in a ballot then we all stand together.

However... if you vote against this deal THERE WILL NOT BE ANOTHER OFFER. So if you vote against it you better be prepared to walk out.. take no salary and find another way to pay for the house and two jags.

[Bigears]

Undercover Consider a company paying out millions a month just to cover the interest payments on debt
Where do you get your figures from?

[Undercover]

Experience.

[terrain safe]

If NATS have to make massive payments to cover the debt and therefore can't afford to give us a pay rise, as mentioned before, WE ARE PAYING FOR PPP IN OUR SALARIES. This is farcical. just because some politician decides to change how NATS works means that we get no pay rise, and they are still in their job and getting an above average payrise (see the Sunday times for details).

There is no defence for their actions and if we get upset about it I don't see how they can complain. It makes me sick to see how Government manipulate things to try and give you no choice. There is a choice. They work you us.

Sorry. Going to lie down in a darkened room with a cool woman.

[Undercover]

Couldn't agree more. We are all paying for the biggest mistake of all - PPP.
Sept 11 was awful and did have a detrimental effect on the business... but we were in serious difficulty before that.

I find it so frustrating looking back... It seemed obvious that the government realised it was a mistake but just couldn't be seen to admit it... so we get landed with the sh*t we're in now and they take their little pot of gold.

:mad:

[375ml]

As an interested observer from Oz, where we are going through a similar industrial dispute (although we've already had two legally protected stop-work days), what happens in the UK if the proposal on the table gets rejected? Ours will most likely go back to the Industrial Commission where a new agreement will be arbitrated (as opposed to mediation/conciliation which hasn't got very far over 15 odd months) and their decision is final.

The main issues we have are a salary reduction in real terms of about 4% and a huge reduction in salary and advancement opportunities for newly employed controllers (over 15% less until catching up over 15-19 or more years depending on performance). For information, on current scales downunder a newly rated controller gets approx US$30k, and the highest paid controller (min 12 years in the job, non-supervisor) gets approx US$61k. These are based on A$1 buys US$0.54. These salaries haven't had an increase in real terms for seven years, and have been effectively 'frozen' for the past year as our negotiations drag on.
:mad:

[C U JIMMY]

Undercover, I for one couldn't give a toss about the state of the company. I did not choose to work for a part privatised NATS, and neither did any of the other chaps on here. If NATS can't give us a SUBSTANTIAL payrise then we go on strike.
I think you'll find either
1) Money will be found very quickly; or
2) TAG won't be running us for much longer

Another important point is that we shouldn't believe management sh*te that we would not have public support on our side once they learn how much we earn. I think you'll find most reasonable people would be appauled to discover what we earn in comparison to our European colleagues / airline pilots

[Undercover]

Hey, I want a pay rise as much as the next man! and his mate too. What I'm saying is not that we should all understand the financial difficulties and accept our lot... but that the simple reality is that - like it or not - the money is just not there.

I'm afraid I've heard all kinds of talk in various areas about strike action in the past and the reality is that people talk a good game but when it comes to the crunch and the mortgage needs paid, the bottle crashes.

Put up or shut up. If you're really, honestly willing to walk out properly then I'll be ready to do the same.

As for public sympathy... they'll just blame the whole thing on Byers anyway, so no problem there...

[AREA52]

Hey folks, I've just read through this forum and decided to finally get round to registering and have my rant!

Let's put this in perspective.

For the past ten years or so, we have seen nothing but pay rises at or around inflation, whilst traffic has increased annually between 5 to 10% on cumulative figures. The government said that we could not have pay in relation to our performance, as we were restricted by public sector pay restraints.

Therefore, in the private sector our expertise was already undervalued in terms of remuneration when TAG bought into NATS. So, whatevever is agreed at the end of the day is in reality still good value to TAG.

Let's not forget that the government still hold the majority share here! They cannot suddenly tell us that they want performance pay when it suits them. Anyway, it would appear that traffic again is on the rise and revenue is returning towards pre 911 figures.

If you pay peanuts, you'll get monkeys sooner or later.

We are looking for decent reward for the future, not the past.

TAG couldn't afford to buy NATS, but they did, so let them find some more cash from the treasury or wherever. Not our problem!

:mad: :mad: :mad:

[Steep Approach]

BUMP ^^:)

[sector8dear]

The 'millions a month' thing is probably correct. We (NATS) were purchased ENTIRELY with around £800m of borrowed money, turning us instantly into a 'bankrupt' organisation - and now a further £60m to pay the interest probably! It also appears that it's NATS Plc NOT the AG who are ultimately responsible for the repayments - nice one!!!

I don't believe that the figures for traffic growth etc were ever valid even before 911 and certainly not now!!! Latest traffic figures are still down around 6% (see Intranet).

NATS should, for so many reasons that we all know, not be in the private sector in the first place. We are victims of Government dogma and pig headedness - they (HM Gov) want it both ways, no pay rises above inflation because you are public sector and now the same because you aren't!!!! Meanwhile traffic has increased manyfold!

Being on the edge of operations, I can confirm that the whole company is paralysed from making any decisions or purchases or capital investments or anything at present. It won't be long before the whole horrible mess finally hits the buffers IMHO.

There genuinely is no money.....however there could be!

Safety Is Paramount we say all the time these days - we only have to keep saying it because it patently obviously isn't. In days gone by, we didn't have to say it, it was taken as read!!!!! What else would ATC be about???

I wish I could get out, that's all!