C210 crash in Roma

[UnaMas]

This morning a C210 VH-MEQ crashed in Roma.


Unsure on number of people on board.
ELT was activated but apparently there was a fatality.

[Desert Flower]

TV just said two fatalities. Plane came down 2km short of runway.....

DF.

[Torres]

Local news confirms two fatalities. Time of incident around 5.30 am this morning. The authorities are "not sure" whether the aircraft was arriving or departing Roma. It lives north of Dalby, seems it may have been heading for Tambo?

[tail wheel]

http://media2.apnonline.com.au/img/media/images/2013/03/25/webcrash_fct973x599x51_t460.jpg

Surat Basin News (http://www.suratbasin.com.au/news/two-dead-roma-plane-crash/1804539/)

TWO people have died in a plane crash about 2km from the Roma airport.

Two people died when the Cessna 210 crashed soon after take-off at at about 5:30am this morning.

The identity of the two people is yet to be released as police have yet to notify the victim's families.

More to come as it is known.

VH-MEQ arrived Coolangatta 30 August 2011 after ferry from the USA via Hilo, Pago Pago and Norfolk Island.

[Capt Claret]

Depending upon how accurate "at about 5:30" is, just before first light (1947z) today.

[compressor stall]

If it was departing, which runway was it off?

[Desert Flower]

Depending upon how accurate "at about 5:30" is, just before first light (1947z) today.

Are you thinking what I'm thinking Clarrie - somatogravic illusion?

DF.

[Torres]

The Police are appealing for any eye witnesses.

The aircraft accident site is north of Roma, so probable departure RW 36.

The site is close to Hartley Lane, south of Orange Hill. There is so much clear country around Roma suitable for an emergency landing.

Heard the owner may have been heading to a bull sale out west.

[avcraft]

Roma is RW 18 / 36 sealed or 09 / 27 unsealed, gets a little messy to the north around Orange Hill but terrain is generally quite clear.. Black holes don't care about terrain though...

[rioncentu]

Names of plane crash victims released | Surat Basin Online (http://www.suratbasin.com.au/news/names-plane-crash-victims-released/1804807/)

Fair bit of damage. Nasty stuff. RIP.

[rioncentu]

Just seen news footage which confirms what the copper on the news says in that debris was scattered over hundreds of meters. The debris looked like paper while the main wreckage seemed to be in one place. Could it have come apart before it hit the ground?

Very confusing indeed especially so close to the airport. ???

[Flying Binghi]

...Very confusing indeed...

We'll have a fair idea soon enough...

The ATSB is investigating a fatal aircraft accident involving a Cessna T210N that occurred on 25 March 2013 near Roma, Queensland.

Soon after takeoff, the aircraft collided with terrain. The two occupants died in the accident and the aircraft was destroyed.

A team of four investigators will arrive at the accident site tonight to begin the on-site investigation.

The team comprises experts in engineering, materials failure and aircraft operations.

Investigation: AO-2013-057 - Collision with terrain involving Cessna T210N, VH-MEQ, 2 km west of Roma Airport, Queensland on 25 March 2013 (http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2013/aair/ao-2013-057.aspx)






.

[VH-XXX]

I was on your page Desert Flower in thinking that the pilots log book would hold most of the answers here, just like the ABC chopper in Marree. Still waiting for that one. However first light at 5:46am at Roma with sunrise at 6:10am. Estimated time of the crash in the ATSB preliminary report, 5:50am. If that was the first flight of the day it certainly appears as though the pilot was trying to be legal for flight under day VFR. Regardless of the cause, a 10 minute delay would likely have changed the outcome based on multiple cause scenarios.

Certainly a shocker of a couple of weeks in the Australian world of aviation.

[Capt Fathom]

Regardless of the cause, a 10 minute delay would likely have changed the outcome based on multiple cause scenarios.

Why would a 10 min delay change the outcome?
Leaving the plane in the hangar would have changed the outcome as well!!

Well there's a new term for media to ponder.... Multiple cause scenarios! :confused:

[VH-XXX]

Why would a 10 min delay change the outcome?

Lets just say DF was right, it wouldn't have happened if there was more light.
On the other hand, if it was mechanical and required to be put down as in an EFATO you have much more chance if you could see properly. Not even speculating, just saying that if it had been a little later, things may have been different. Personally I have not been near Roma at 5:50am so I can't comment on the lighting conditions.

Multiple Cause Scenarios (MCS), it comes up in Google so I'm sticking with it.

[Flying Binghi]

...Not even speculating, just saying that...

Your funny VH-XXX..:D

[VH-XXX]

Speculating would be saying / guessing what caused it; don't think I've done that. I'm saying it is more of a tragedy because a short time after may have yielded many alternate scenarios.

[Centaurus]

Are you thinking what I'm thinking Clarrie - somatogravic illusion?


In a Cessna 210? I doubt it. It's not exactly a hot ship. There are countless C210 flying around at night in Australia in black hole conditions and they aren't all crashing due somatogravic illusion. More often than not, similar type accidents are due unfortunately to poor instrument flying ability.

[compressor stall]

Wasn't there a KingAir that crashed around Roma about 20 years ago from the Somatogravic Illusion? Or was it somewhere else in QLD. I remember reading the crash comic about it on the table at my flying school. Never forgot it and was always in the back of my mind when I started flying 210s on dark nights in the outback and onwards into the Turbine world. If only the young pilots of today had such tomes to read. :ouch:

If I read you correctly Centaurus, are you implying that if you nail the instruments (ie pitch), you won't get the illusion in a C210, but you would/could in something faster?

[Desert Flower]

There was a TB10 flown by a couple of foreign students that speared in at Ceduna some years ago due to somotogravic illusion. Wouldn't say a TB10 was hot ship either!

DF.

[megle2]

CS your probably recalling the King Air 90 departing Wondai

There has been a number of bad accidents within a short distance of Roma at night particularly the B23 and B55 but there are others

[compressor stall]

Thanks, yes that's the one.

The fog of Grenache made me think it was Roma. Close enough, eh? :p

[avcraft]

There was a 55 Baron went in west of Roma around 1988 / 89? Then a very well known engineer from Longreach in a Mooney around 1996... Both inbound at night.

[Arm out the window]

If I read you correctly Centaurus, are you implying that if you nail the instruments (ie pitch), you won't get the illusion in a C210, but you would/could in something faster?

G'day CS,

I imagine he's just referring to the root cause of the illusion, ie longitudinal acceleration fooling the body into feeling that the real gravity vector is not pulling straight down, but from somewhere down and behind you, so you feel like you're falling over backwards and want to push to compensate.

More acceleration, worse illusion. I think it would still be possible to experience it to some degree even with moderate acceleration, though - haven't seen any figures to refer to a minimum rate to trigger an onset.

[MCKES]

The crash you are thinking of was a c90 at I believe Wondai.

[Dora-9]

More acceleration, worse illusion. I think it would still be possible to experience it to some degree even with moderate acceleration, though - haven't seen any figures to refer to a minimum rate to trigger an onset. Despite this mere mortal never having flown the super equipment that Centarus is telling us that he has, and despite his clear disdain for this possibility, I would have thought the acceleration of a C210 with only two on board would have been conceivably sufficient to trigger this illusion.

[rocket66]

I tend to agree with Dora. It not only depends on the aircraft in question it also depends on other factors like his experience, if he had done any ifr flying, illness etc etc. Never good news to wake up to nonetheless.

Rocket

[Ixixly]

I would have imagined that a Turbocharged 210 with only 2 people on board would have been capable of a reasonable amount of up & go?

[VH-XXX]

I would have thought the acceleration of a C210 with only two on board would have been conceivably sufficient to trigger this illusion.

IF it was dark enough to trigger it?

[garrya100]

The image of the accident site could support that theory, it show what appears to be a low angle of contact at high speed. The wreckage trail was over 500m long (according to the news), and the image shows that the breakup occured mainly at the end of the sequence.

I would have though that an EFATO scenario would have shown the same sort of angle with a much shorter wreckage trail.

A question for the much more expirienced than I, could an initial over rotation on lift off exacerbate the illusion and thus disguise the fact the aircraft was actually settling?

[neville_nobody]

Airborne after first light should give you something resembling a horizon given that is severe CAVOK. I don't think disorientation should be an issue.

[A37575]

Despite this mere mortal never having flown the super equipment that Centarus is telling us that he has, and despite his clear disdain for this possibility, I would have thought the acceleration of a C210 with only two on board would have been conceivably sufficient to trigger this illusion.

The "super equipment" quip is a bit unfair. Nowhere in Centaurus comments warranted such sarcasm. However, in numerous Australian general aviation accident reports, where, in the absence of any evidence of technical malfunction that was the cause of an accident, the possibly contributory cause of somatogravic illusion is invariably mentioned. In other words it is a catch-all fall-back reason for an accident but without a shred of hard proof.

If, presuming all pilots - including airline pilots - are subject to such an insidious illusion at night or in IMC, then perhaps this warrants ATSB attention in the form of a survey to all licensed pilots to obtain hard data. That survey should include statements of aircraft type involved.

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

Is "somatogravic illusion" a fancy way of saying, "the aeroplane was allowed to descend back into the ground"?

Has happened many times before and will no doubt happen many times in the future.

There are not many new ways for a pilot to crash an aeroplane - we just keep re-using all the old ones!

Dr :8

[sheppey]

Many years ago a Convair 580 flew into the sea within seconds of lifting off from Auckland airport. Both pilots died in the accident. It was a dark night and once airborne the crew would have been on instruments. I don't know if the investigators considered they both could have been affected simultneously by somatogravic illusions.

But the investigators did find out that the copilot who was conducting the take off was on her first flight as handling pilot. Also in several previous flights the copilot's artificial horizon instrument was defective in that it displayed erroneous indications in roll and pitch attitudes. Not only that, but the instrument was left in place while awaiting a replacement. The situation had been like that for a few weeks.

The investigators asked other company pilots about their experiences of flying with the captain who was also the chief pilot. Take off's in the Convair required the use of take-off flap. Retraction of flap after take off was normally done above 500 feet due to the significant nose down pitching moment that was a characteristic as the flaps came in. Notwithstanding this characteristic, the captain was well known for his habit of selecting flaps up almost immediately after the gear was selected up and this was as low as 100 ft.

The investigation concluded that although the copilot had never flown the Convair - apart from observation flights - this was her first flight actually handling the controls. It was a night IMC departure with a known defective artificial horizon on her side. The action of the captain in selecting flaps up soon after lift off, would have caused a nose down change of pitch that may not have been noticed by the copilot faced with a faulty artificial horizon. To a new copilot this would have been an impossible task to pick the problem. The captain was at fault for putting her in a situation that would have taxed even a highly experienced instrument pilot.

The Convair 580 was a powerful aircraft with excellent acceleration during take off. Maybe somatogravic illusion was a contributory factor in the accident. But in this particular accident there were more compelling facts that came to light. Take your pick...

[Arm out the window]

Is "somatogravic illusion" a fancy way of saying, "the aeroplane was allowed to descend back into the ground"?


Not really, FTDK. Inattention to attitude would be the more likely cause for that one, I reckon.

Somatogravic is when you accelerate, and as well as being pulled down by gravity you are now pushed back in your seat. In the absence of a clear horizon, you now feel as if gravity is acting from somewhere behind you, ie it feels like you're falling over backwards. Also known as the 'pitch-up illusion'.

Natural response - push forward to make things feel more normal. Correct response, of course - get on the AI and set the correct climb attitude and get into your scan.

One I know of was when a solo 2FTS student in a Macchi on a night takeoff just flew into the ground - it was put down to somatogravic illusion and well discussed (although if you're not the flying pilot you can't possibly know for sure, I guess.)

[Dora-9]

The "super equipment" quip is a bit unfair.Yes, on second thoughts you're correct - Centaurus, please consider the quip humbly withdrawn. However I think you're incorrect to say that it couldn't be this effect simply because you don't think the aircraft concerned had sufficient acceleration. How much acceleration is enough?

Is "somatogravic illusion" a fancy way of saying, "the aeroplane was allowed to descend back into the ground"?
Forky, the simple answer is no, and yes. The pilot pushes forward to overcome a perception (the somotogravic illusion) of rotating backwards, and the aircraft contacts the ground when it should be climbing away. But you could also argue that if he flew his instruments and ignored the sensations then he wouldn't allow the aircraft to descend back into the ground. I recall when I first got an instrument rating being told over and over again to ignore the sensations/fly the instruments. Good advice indeed, that was 45 years ago, and given the right trigger(s) I can occasionally still experience "the leans"!

[Lancair70]

As a young fella and at the time, under training for my MEIFR, (completed rating a month or so later) I departed YBTH to the north on a NVFR flight in the early hours, (4.30am local) solo in a C210 and quite vividly recall suffering somotogravic illusion, I definately felt like I was pitched way nose up. I forced my self to believe the instruments that I was in a 800fpm climb and accelerating quickly through 90knots, as I recall it took another minute or so until I was feeling like everything was normal and I was game to look away from the instruments
Being under training for my MEIFR I was, I guess in the best situation to realise it. I also feel all the crash comic stories I'd read over the previous 2 years or so helped. ALL student pilots should be reading these old mags as a MUST do when learning to fly, us older pilots should also re-read and learn from them.

[Wally Mk2]

Firstly I hope the family & friends left behind after this tragic accident can find some peace knowing that any sad event like this wakes us all up & we can refresh our tired minds to such illusions so that it doesn't happen to us.

This debilitating illusion is based on pitch as we all know & being so close to the ground in this critical stage of flight I think it's worth doing some research on the subject for yourself.

I had this very feeling bad one night out of YPID to the Sth in the old Dove. If it wasn't for the fact that the ground below me drops away to the beach some 80 ft or so I may not be here now! I swore that I needed to descend felt like I was gunna flip back & stall! I saw the ASI going balsitic & if anyone knows the old Dove the only way that could happen is in a dive! So I grabbed the ASI like it was a life jacket & held 80 kts or so 'till I was almost to the Moon!!!! I didn't get fixated on the AH as that inst can be very confusing when under duress I just referenced it to make sure my wings where fairly level.
What did I learn that night? What can we all learn (& lets use this C210 sad event as a learning tool)? KNOW yr PLANE. Know what it's capable of airspeed wise ROC wise where the trim needs to be for T/off. Adapt to the nosie the engine/prop makes under normal climb conditions.
Leave the bloody flaps & power alone 'till well above the ground at night & in poor external light conditions the donk can scream it's head off for a few seconds longer. The last thing ya wanna do is look away from that ASI whilst fiddling with the engine controls.
The ASI is a trend inst, it tells you a LOT of things, use the bloody thing like yr life depends on it!
Check what yr machine does when the suns out in good flying conditions when taking off. How many of us just sit there time after time during t/off & really not notice what's going on with our machine? Sure we know what to do it's almost a robotic experience when ALL yr senses are working to supply yr CPU (Brain) with info it ain't rocket science on a nice day BUT remove some of those cues (eyes the most important info gatherer) & that very same event you do repetitively all of a sudden feels like yr in another world!
The most important instrument to me was the ASI, that inst is several inst's rolled up in one. You can see in yr peripheral the AH if yr wings are fairly level.

Obviously all of the above is how I see it, what I used to do as I've done a LOT of single pilot driving at night out of & into some bloody black holes over the years in machines that are ripe for somatogravic illusions & the ASI has/was always my friend.

So again lets all learn from this rather than bag each other for armchair flying.

Wmk2

[Keg]

There was a TB10 flown by a couple of foreign students that speared in at Ceduna some years ago due to somotogravic illusion. Wouldn't say a TB10 was hot ship either!


Except it wasn't really a somatogravic illusion. They were further away from the airfield than is normal with those sorts of prangs and they'd already commenced a turn for Adelaide. Rather than impacting nose down in an 'up and over' type deal they more or less flew on a gradual descent into the ground. IIRC, the ATSB report didn't think somatogravic illusion as being the likely cause.

Finally, it was a Trinny rather than a Tobago so acceleration may have been a bit of an issue but not something that the ATSB thought relevant. :ok:

[aroa]

...was a very powerful aircraft .... Sheppey.
I havent read any NZ report on that accident but a NZ frund mentioned that there were prop marks from one side, on the runway and airfield before the bay where it speared in.
Acceleration probs?.... or just did it just get away from her on the take-off?

Whatever..a tragic outcome... as with the 210 ....and all the others this week. Very not good.
RIP.

[Delta_Foxtrot]

I'm with AOTW on this. I had a personal experience coming out of Melbourne one dark and stormy night in the jump seat of a Falcon 900. We had just enough fuel to get back to Canberra, so the aircraft had excellent acceleration potential. When the horizon lighting disappeared below the coaming, and as the aircraft was cleaned up and accelerated, I was convinced (by feel) that we were at least 45 deg nose up. A quick cross-reference to the flight instruments revealed we were at a quite normal pitch attitude (around 20 deg nose up or thereabouts - exact memory fails me). It was quite un-nerving.

A couple of points I took away from that one: a) the flying crew were probably quite used to the acceleration while I certainly was not; b) good training reinforces a good instrument scan which mitigates the problem (couples with point a); and c) initial and every AVMED refresher I did since 1977 reinforces the medical concept and the inherent dangers. As far as I know, there is no simulator ever built which can replicate the effect, so it is one of those things for which it is impossible to train for or experience under safe conditions. The only real defences are awareness of the issue and adherence to sound instrument flying techniques.

I'm not going to trawl through the ATSB stats (I haven't got the time as I'm retired now!) to detail each unexplained occurrence and see if the somatogravic illusion fits, but I remember the details of a few over the years (eg KingAIr at Wondai, C310 at Bathurst Island). When you step back and look, there are some common threads in: older (age (think hysteresis, lag etc) and style) flight instruments, possibly low experience level, possible lack of night/instrument currency, low or non-existent ambient lighting, lack of horizon etc. Couple that with aircraft performance parameters at the time (small payload, light fuel = more get up and go) and it starts to add up.

I'm not out to offend anyone, particularly those close to the accidents mentioned or any similar but, while I'm not a trained aircraft accident investigator, I have been in the civil and military sides of aviation since 1971 and I've always tried to learn as much as possible from accident and incident reports in order to keep myself and others breathing for as long as possible. I know I shouldn't jump to conclusions without waiting for the facts, but I have to admit that when I see a wreckage trail like the one at Roma coupled with dark ambient conditions, light AUW, and a relatively high performance aircraft, somatogravic illusion is the first phase that rears its ugly head.

D_F

[Super Cecil]

There was a Baron flew into the ground after take off at Armidale maybe 25 years ago on a dark night, flew into an orchard.

[Kulwin Park]

Many years ago, about 1988-89 - maybe start of 1989, there was a Cessna 210 that flew into the ground with 2 or 3 POB after Take-Off, near Hamilton or Horsham in Victoria. I can't quite remember the details but I knew a friends father died in the crash.

They say they took off and lost reference to the ground in a turn, and ended up doing a rate 1 turn into the ground out of a country airstrip, thinking they were climbing. Witness at farmhouse saw it. Details are sketchy, but sounds similar to this accident that is mentioned.... KP

[framer]

I've had it in a lightly loaded Baron, not too much more get up and go I would have thought.

[triton140]

Illusions are very powerful things.

I recently experienced the inverse of this, having a coupla fun hours playing around in the QF 737 sim in Melbourne courtesy of their FF program.

As we accelerated down the runway, I was forcefully pushed back into the seat for the whole time as you would expect from the acceleration. But how can this be? The simulator only has limited forward motion (acceleration)?

Answer is, the sim pitches upwards, forcing us back into the seat. But our visual cues from the screens show we were straight and level, so we interpreted that feeling as acceleration.

But it was a very powerful thing ...

[PLovett]

The report on the Afriqiyah Airbus 330 crash has put it down to somatogravic illusion (probably both pilots). A go-around in daylight (just) over landscape covered in ground mist.

A C 210 just after first light, 2 up, possible cause......yes. Was it the likely cause........thats another thing.

Triton, absolutely. I used to muck around in a fixed base sim and the illusion of turning could cause people standing between the pilots seats to grab hold of them even though we were not moving a centimetre.

[Wally Mk2]

That's right 'Triton' the Sim puters use yr own body weight to fool you, trick you, same as the bloody Sim instructors, they trick you too....buggers:E
Just goes to show that our eyes are very important.

The Wright Bros have a lot of explaining to do I reckon !


Wmk2

[Lookleft]

You should watch the sim from the outside and see just how far it tips back and forward to give you the acceleration sensation.

In other words it is a catch-all fall-back reason for an accident but without a shred of hard proof.

Unless the pilot survives, not sure how you can get hard proof. The nature of these accidents are such that is highly unlikely. Its usually the hypothesis when all other factors have been eliminated such as engine failure or instrument failure.

[VH-XXX]

It would be interesting to know if this was the first flight of the day or a hop as that would give us info regarding pilot experience under NVFR. On the face of it, it would seem that best attempts were made to fly in luminous conditions.

[Tee Emm]

I havent read any NZ report on that accident but a NZ frund mentioned that there were prop marks from one side, on the runway and airfield before the bay where it speared in.
Acceleration probs?.... or just did it just get away from her on the take-off?


From Aviation Safety. Net. Air Freight 1 was a scheduled night freight flight between Palmerston North, Auckland and Christchurch. The crew consisted of a training captain and two new co-pilots who were to fly alternate legs as co-pilot and observer.

The co-pilot’s ADI of the Convair CV-580 in question had a known intermittent defect, but had been retained in service. The aircraft’s MEL however did not permit this flight to be undertaken with an unserviceable ADI. The aircraft nevertheless departed Palmerston North and arrived at Auckland at about 20:30. It was unloaded and reloaded with 11 pallets of cargo.

On the next leg, to Christchurch, the handling pilot was to be the other co-pilot. Although she had completed her type rating on the Convair 580 this was her first line flight as a crew member. The flight was cleared to taxi to runway 23 for departure. Takeoff was commenced at 21:59. The aircraft climbed to a height of approx. 400 feet when it pitched down.

It entered a gradual descent until it contacted the ground 387 m beyond the end of runway 23 and 91 m left of the extended centreline. The aicraft then crashed and broke up in the tidal waters of Manukau Harbour.

PROBABLE CAUSE: "The probable cause of this accident was the training captain’s failure to monitor the aircraft’s climb flightpath during the critical stage of the climb after take-off."

[Tankengine]

XXX, I think waiting another 15-20mins would have been a better attempt.:hmm:

As an ex night/IFR instructor I saw lots of illusions and responses to them,
It cannot be emphasised enough the need to rotate and go onto instruments with a good cross-check.:eek:

I helped install the lights and did the initial flights at Wondai, it can be a real black hole to the North, as can Roma.:ooh:

[UTW]

Somatographic illusion or spatial disorientation was one of the causes of this A320 crash a few years ago.

Gulf Air Flight 072 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_Air_Flight_072)

[Arm out the window]

I saw the ASI going balsitic & if anyone knows the old Dove the only way that could happen is in a dive! So I grabbed the ASI like it was a life jacket & held 80 kts or so 'till I was almost to the Moon!!!! I didn't get fixated on the AH as that inst can be very confusing when under duress I just referenced it to make sure my wings where fairly level.

Scary stuff, Wally, and a good response under the circumstances. However I imagine you are talking about the old 'bar and dot' AH, where that's all you have, and probably one that would precess too?

I think anything with a modern-ish attitude indicator with pitch and bank increments and clear delineation as to what's up and what's down would be the primary go-to instrument to get attitude + power = performance happening ASAP. The AI is certainly my first port of call in any leans-type situation, followed quickly by establishment of a scan to the other instruments to confirm it's not bull****ting me.

What you described sounded like some good limited panel flying, maybe something people don't get to practice that much these days. It certainly is possible to fly on turn needle, compass, ASI and altimeter alone if you have to, or even less, but if there's any kind of useful attitude reference around I'd go for that first.

[Wally Mk2]

That's true 'AOTW' it was an old steam driven AH but even if I did have a half decent AH i am of the old school where the ASI is a very handy tool to have when experiencing difficulties in holding attitude. Power wasn't the issue, full steam ahead was the order of the day or in this case the night!
I did at the time glance at the AH to get an overall picture of the fast happening events mainly to keep the wings level but don't forget the AH has two lots of info being presented to you (pitch & roll) & under the illusion being discussed here those two in one presentations could be brain overload when under the pump, under normal Ops a peace of cake:-)
I still advocate KNOW yr PLANE not just what the instruments are telling you as there's more to flying in IMC (same as night in VMC with zero outside cues), we have other senses than the eyes, use 'em all I say!:)

Anyway it's just the way I cope/ed with that particular situation & used that basic ability a few times over the years, each to their own I guess:)


Wmk2

[Sunfish]

Be wary flying over water too. You can get disoriented flying out of Point Cook over the bay when you get one of those dead flat winter days with a lead sky and lead sea - you lose the horizon.

The other trap I saw last year was flying over Lake Frome with no wind and a perfect reflection of the sky on the water. That had me wondering fro a second which way was up.

[Desert Flower]

The other trap I saw last year was flying over Lake Frome with no wind and a perfect reflection of the sky on the water. That had me wondering fro a second which way was up.

As someone found out years ago when they flew a C210 into Lake Eyre!

DF.

[framer]

When it happened to me I was fairly fresh MEIR pilot with about 1100hrs total and about ten night hours. I only had about 100 hours on the Baron. The first thing I noticed as the lights disappeared from view and it all got very black was that my airspeed was higher than I was used to. Everything else felt normal and that left me with a feeling of confusion. I thought to myself that something wasn't right and thought a bit about what my AH was telling me....."why is that AH showing such a low attitude when I know I'm pitching up even more than normal?" I looked at my ASI again.... " 100kts.....that's gotta be wrong..." back to the AH " **** that looks different....crap I'm confused...ASI 110kts and I'm still pitching up, wanna push forward....ahhh man this is how people crash.....I know....full power, wings level, ten degrees pitch, powers good, ten degrees pitch, powers good, ten degrees pitch, powers good, ten degrees pitch....airspeed is coming back to normal, not so confused, there are the lights of a nearby town.....confusion gone.....Jesus wept I nearly killed myself".
That all started at about 200f when the runway lights disappeared underneath me and was over by 1000ft. If I didn't have an IFR rating I am confident I would have pushed forward until I hit the ground. At the time I hadn't done an IFR flight since my flight training two years prior but had been doing night cross country flights VFR ( charter) and so was fairly used to using the AH as a primary reference. I also had the benefit of a family member being a 747 training Captain and he had said to always remind myself of the pitch attitude I want to see when I get airborne prior to rolling at night. I had never thought it could have been that confusing and it hasn't happened to me in the last 6000 hrs of flight. So although this particular accident could have been caused by 100 other things, personally, I know that somotogravic illusion is a real killer and think that many pilots who had not had the IFR training and advice etc must have met their end in a state of confusion with a serviceable aircraft.

[VH-XXX]

They released a minor update today.

Update: 27 March 2013
The ATSB team is continuing its investigation activities on-site. The team has found that the aircraft’s right wing hit a 8 metre tree before the aircraft struck the ground.

The team has been canvassing local residents for hearing and witness reports and received some good hearing reports on the engine operation as a result.

Examination of the engine will be completed today and the team will then concentrate on the fuselage, cockpit and instrument and related systems.

Any components retained by the team from the site will be examined at the ATSB facilities in Canberra over the coming weeks. ATSB investigators will also be reviewing pilot experience and logbooks.

The next update will be provided in around 30 days.

[aroa]

TM I stand corrected on the 580 spear in. Can't advise my friend ...already folded his wings too, alas.

Bushies Metro did a gentle descent into the weeds after take off from Emerald many moons ago, on a dark and stormy night.
And the pilot lived to tell the tale. One lucky driver.!:ok:

Re the sky mirrored in a lake. VERY disorienting... even at a safe level above.
Lake AIR...??

And watch out if you are in a steep descending turn over blank terrain...and not looking up and out for the horizon, and nothing on the ground for scale.
Been there..... and nearly flew straight into the dirt..!

[VH-XXX]

Lake Eyre, that's correct. There was water in it at the time! There's photos of it on the wall in the Lake Eyre Yacht Club. I took a photo of of the photo but am struggling to find it.

[Jack Ranga]

My experience of it, take off out of MB, MTOW, Cheiftain. Lots of visual reference.

Return out of WYY, empty, R09, black hole as soon as you lose the runway lights :cool: when you are aware of it, you sit on the end of the runway (after transmitting on CTAF that you will be lined up for 10 seconds :E) brief yourself. In the end, a function of good training (which I had, thanks Pete)

It's a ****house feeling...

[Desert Flower]

Lake Eyre, that's correct. There was water in it at the time!


Investigation: 199000014 - Cessna 210-N, VH-XAG, Lake Eyre North, 53 km north-west Muloorina station SA, 29 July 1990 (http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/1990/aair/aair199000014.aspx)

Smart arse pilot was showing off trying to show passengers how he could fly below sea level on a day with 8 octas cloud cover. Tried to blame an engine failure due to dirty fuel he'd picked up in Leigh Creek until it was proved otherwise. If anyone wants to know how I know this - PM me!

DF.

[Jenna Talia]

For those of us that fly aircraft with a flight director, I set it up so it displays 10 degrees up in the line up position then fly straight into it after rotate. A very useful tool if so equipped on those dark nights.

[bodybag]

You've got a flair for investigation and a level of intelligence that's far beyond average..
Perhaps you should consider a career with the ATSB.

[VH-XXX]

You've got a flair for investigation and a level of intelligence that's far beyond average..
Perhaps you should consider a career with the ATSB.

Well you see Bodybag, Desert Flower has the added advantage of being on-site in this instance and caught the "real" story with this one and not the filtered down BS that we often get from the ATSB or similar sources. I'm not admitting to know anything about this incident in particular, however do you really think that a pilot is going to tell the authorities if he was actually doing that??? :=

[Flying Binghi]

via VH-XXX;
...the filtered down BS that we often get from the ATSB or similar sources...

...:confused:





............................

[VH-XXX]

I'm not sure I know exactly what you are saying but I'll give you an example:

IcePilots series 2 from memory, it went something like this:

The C47 was taxiing for departure from a remote field when the wing clipped a truck, causing minor damage.

FAA report

The C47 was performing a beat-up of the work site after departure when the wing struck a tree causing damage to the wing.


It's the reverse in this situation however I hope that makes sense.

[BEACH KING]

Flight Director
For those of us that fly aircraft with a flight director, I set it up so it displays 10 degrees up in the line up position then fly straight into it after rotate. A very useful tool if so equipped on those dark nights.

That's exactly how I do it, follow the flight director bars, and turn on the autopilot as soon as I can, and don't touch anything till you get to 1000ft AGL.
This maintains the 10 degree pitch up and I do all turns by rotating the heading bug. That way the autopilot is flying the aircraft and you are monitoring it in case something fails or goes awry.
I was very fortunate to do all my night training out of very "black hole" bush airstrips with a very experienced ex RFDS instructor, who deliberately induced all the bad effects that can happen at night. The somatogravic illusion is a very powerful event, and I found it required intense concentration to overcome. Every time you looked away from the scan, he would give you a clip under the ear with his torch!

Runway 36 at YROM, YTGM, YCMU and rwy 12 at YBCV on take-off are as black as you get on a moonless night.

[Torres]

Runway 36 at YROM, YTGM, YCMU and rwy 12 at YBCV on take-off are as black as you get on a moonless night.

Could not agree more. On the morning of the accident I heard what sounded like an SE piston engine aircraft perhaps around 5.00 am, which struck me at the time as unusual. I guess it may have been the 210 arriving at Roma, or it may have been one of the aircraft headed to a big funeral that day in Tambo.

If the accident happened between 05.30 am and just before 6.00 am, it was still dark enough that the pilot would not have had a clear visual ground reference off runway 36 until passing over the houses on Orange Hill.

[Desert Flower]

Desert Flower
You've got a flair for investigation and a level of intelligence that's far beyond average..
Perhaps you should consider a career with the ATSB.


With my "beyond average intelligence" I am guessing that wasn't meant as a compliment! Can't help but wonder if you were the pilot in question?

however do you really think that a pilot is going to tell the authorities if he was actually doing that???

The fact that the prop tips were bent forward discounted the engine failure before it hit the water story!
Anyway that's not what we were originally discussing here, so let's get this thread back on track please.

DF.

[ozaggie]

2000 hrs night-ag tends to expose one to the dangers of both these perils more often than is considered comfortable. Typically operating ag aircraft with the max fuel and load possible every takeoff does not preclude the possibility of SI onset, indeed I found it increased it, when, for whatever reason, performance was improved, both on takeoff, and during spray operations. It's the unexpected that will get you everytime, and no amount of training will prevent it. Remember, both are cerebral perceptions, caused by physical stimuli, which without the benefit of our strongest sense (sight), can be overwhelming. On a dark night, while spraying, I once experienced SD, simply by reversing my turn faster than I had the previous 4 or 5 times, while turning over a black hole. I can tell you all that the noise approximating acceleration in my ears, would beat any rock concert I have ever attended. Terrifying! What to do? I froze on the stick, eyes inside to check ASI and Alt, (elect T&B are useless), then back outside to regain horizon. I knew I was climbing, I knew I had checked roll, I was at 400' agl before I had a positive horizon, and could continue to treat the field. With 8/8 overcast, a very dark night, we perhaps should have been in the stubby-hut, enjoying the fruits of the brewers toils, and the sight of rain in the worklights while clearing the strip for continued ops was a welcome sight indeed.
How do we combat these accidents? The only mitigation available IMHO, is education, and experience. It is clear, we cannot hope to survive all the experiences of others, (mortality is a bitch) so we must learn from the experience and unfortunate misadventures of others. So keep your own experiences coming. If we are reading them, you have survived, and have the best knowledge available for the betterment of your fellows.
RIP the folk in the C210, so very sad.
Heed their experience, could save your own life one day.

[ozaggie]

Hey DF, is the lump still there where they left the Fuse of XAG? Jesus wept, everyone else would just fiddle with the alt setting thingy to trick the punters on that one. Twit!

[Desert Flower]

Hey DF, is the lump still there where they left the Fuse of XAG? Jesus wept, everyone else would just fiddle with the alt setting thingy to trick the punters on that one. Twit!

Not sure if it's still there or been eaten away by the salt. Maybe if there's anyone on here from Wrightsair or one of the other outfits that have been doing scenics up there can tell us.

DF.

[PLovett]

is the lump still there where they left the Fuse of XAG?

It was still there in 2009 and if its any consolation DF, your version of events was told to me by someone who has Lake Eyre as their backyard.

[Desert Flower]

It was still there in 2009 and if its any consolation DF, your version of events was told to me by someone who has Lake Eyre as their backyard.

That would most likely have been the owner of a nearby station, whom I believe was first on scene.

DF.

[CharlieLimaX-Ray]

Might have been a case of runups on the go a 180 turn at the end of the runway, fist full of throttle and no real time for the AH to fully erect and stabilise, prior to the take-off roll.

[Pa28200]

I completed my nvfr test december 2012 in black hole conditions in north queensland from sea level to 6500ft over the rang no towns no lights hardest thing i can imagine you can not trust your body one little bit, i vowed that night to never fly in those conditions ever....
Two weeks later early morning ready with family at xmas to get away we arived early with new nvfr to black condiotions it was the easiest and best decsion i ever made to wait for the sun to give us a basic horizon in all 10 mins and even then you are on the edge and using every skill you have i have flown quite a bit around qld outback and abuse it at your peril we were all taught its better to be down here than up there wishing you were down here.
Apologys for spelling posted from i phone in transit

[Torres]

Latest rumour appears to be a suspected engine problem and clipped the tree turning back.

[VH-XXX]

Latest rumour appears to be a suspected engine problem and clipped the tree turning back.

The ATSB update has certainly loosely eluded to that being a possibility.

[AU-501]

Stop guessing about what happened to these unfortunates. Show a little respect.
If you want to start a thread on how to crash things, do it.

Later... Much later

[The Mentalist]

When I was taught Night flying. The rule was as soon as you rotate you are IFR until 1500ft then you can look out. Has worked for me the last 20 yrs. Twin ops is the same, just a little more instruments to monitor.

[Avgas172]

guessing about what happened to these unfortunates. Show a little respect.
If you want to start a thread on how to crash things, do it.

Later... Much later]

Playing devils advocate personally I prefer anything that has the potential to save another pilots / pax's life should be discussed ASAP, and that is what I have gained from this thread
Cheers
A172

[framer]

I agree with Avgas. That's how we learn. I have lost real close mates in aircraft accidents and we all sat around in the bar discussing how they may have cocked it up that very night. It isn't disrespectful in my mind, it is a part of our profession. At any stage you can leave the bar and spend some time alone, Pprune is no different.

[framer]

Further to that, how many low hour CPL's are about to do night flights over the next couple of weeks around Australia that will have read this and will be sharply focused on the instruments as a result?
This frank discussion may have just saved a life....literally.

[VH-XXX]

I've learnt a lot about night departures due to this thread. As much as I know about using instruments on takeoff etc, I didn't realise how often this must occur for people out there and how close many have come to ending it. Even if this has nothing to do with this crash it's still a valuable discussion.

As long as nobody has spoken ill of the deceased I can't see an issue with the discussion and it would appear that nobody has done that given that nobody even seems to know those involved.

[Grogmonster]

I have read all the posts with all the theories. Firstly you will get SI in any aircraft taking off into black hole. C172 to F18. It doesn't have to have great acceleration. The next issue is no one has mentioned the Moon. On the night in question the moonlight was incredibly bright. I don't know what time the moon set. Can anyone out there tell us? Those of you have flown on bright moonlight nights will know that the horizon and terrain are clearly visible and if that was the case there may have been other factors at play. Like many before me I urge you all to wait until the investigation is complete.

Groggy

[Flying Binghi]

Hmmm... gotta get me self a few more call signs...

via Avgas172;
Playing devils advocate personally I prefer anything that has the potential to save another pilots / pax's life should be discussed ASAP, and that is what I have gained from this thread

Right. So now we know yer have never read a crash comic..:hmm:






.

[framer]

What do you mean Flying Binghi? ( genuine question, not being facetious)

[Flying Binghi]

via framer;
Further to that, how many low hour CPL's are about to do night flights over the next couple of weeks around Australia that will have read this and will be sharply focused on the instruments as a result?
This frank discussion may have just saved a life....literally.

"sharply focused" "instruments".... Perhaps framer can tell us which flying school/ Instructor it is that lets their "low hour CPLs" loose with out the proper most basic training..:hmm:

I suspects framer is one of them Labor voting types when i reads the term "Frank discussion" used when we do not yet have a ATSB report to work with.

It used to be yer had a "frank discussion" after the facts were known.





.

[Capn Bloggs]

The next issue is no one has mentioned the Moon. On the night in question the moonlight was incredibly bright. I don't know what time the moon set. Can anyone out there tell us?
The moon rose at 1633 and set at 0347. Beginning of civil twilight was 0548, according to Sundroid.

[Avgas172]

Yes bingle, I have read many, however having things reinforced is not a bad thing, and I'm not sure about anyone else but I do tend to read pprune and learn on a daily basis, I have much to learn and I have only been flying for 30 years now so I'm still a novice :=

[bentleg]

The moon rose at 1633 and set at 0347. Beginning of civil twilight was 0548, according to Sundroid.


According to Geoscience Australia -


roma Lat=-26°33'00" Long=+148°46'00"
TIMES OF MOONRISE AND MOONSET
(for ideal horizon & meteorological conditions)
Time zone: +10.00 hours
26/03/2013 Rise: 1712 Set: 0444

Computed using National Mapping Division's moonrisenset program, version 1.2


Regardless of who is right it would have been pretty dark at 0530

[Capn Bloggs]

26/03/2013 Rise: 1712 Set: 0444
The accident was on the 25th. Moonset 0347 confirmed. :ok:

[Grogmonster]

So the bottom line is there was no moonlight when the accident occurred. Maybe that explains a few things. Just trying to understand what happened.!!!

Groggy

[Wally Mk2]

I'd like to think that should I buy the farm God forbid that everyone here would talk about it, learn from my mistakes (if that where the case) so that we ALL can gain further knowledge to reduce the risks & stay alive!
NONE of us can say I know enough so keep discussing the accident & the many others that will follow this one (they will that's as certain as the sun will rise 2moro) as sadly mankind never learns enough to guarantee anything.

I don't have the answers to this one or any others but pilots make errors on a daily basis, learn from them so these poor unfortunates lost lives aren't in vain.


Wmk2

[Flying Binghi]

via Grogmonster;

So the bottom line is there was no moonlight when the accident occurred. Maybe that explains a few things. Just trying to understand what happened.!!!


Maybe it do, maybe it don't.



Looks fairly obvious what happened... though....

- Were the A/H working ?

- Were there a new wiz bang electric panel fitted that went fizz just at rotation ? And if there were a new panel were the pilot familiar with it ? How long had the pilot been using the old six pack ?

- Was there an engine failure ?

- Fog ?

- Pilot incapacitation ?

Probably some more factors i haven't thought of though an accident report will help there...






.

[Tee Emm]

Every time you looked away from the scan, he would give you a clip under the ear with his torch!


I must say, when I hear of an instructor that is so lacking in the ability to instruct without physically hitting the student, the first thing I would think of is not to believe anything he says. These sort of idiots should be scrubbed during their instructors course if that sort of temperement starts to show up. Unfortunately some flying schools are so intent in making a buck doing instructor courses they let anyone through as long as he pays up front.:ugh:

[Flying Binghi]

via Avgas172;
Yes bingle, I have read many, however having things reinforced is not a bad thing, and I'm not sure about anyone else but I do tend to read PPRuNe and learn on a daily basis, I have much to learn and I have only been flying for 30 years now so I'm still a novice.


Hmmm... i see then that Avgas172 and Co will be putting up a weekly thread looking at some of the old crash comic reports so that we all may comment and learn from factual accident reports..:hmm:







.

[Centaurus]

That's exactly how I do it, follow the flight director bars, and turn on the autopilot as soon as I can, and don't touch anything till you get to 1000ft AGL.

For those of us that fly aircraft with a flight director, I set it up so it displays 10 degrees up in the line up position then fly straight into it after rotate.


Interesting comments in view of Pprune discussions on other forums on the subject of automation dependency and it's role in accidents. Even the FAA have finally come to the conclusion this is a serious trend and have recommended operators encourage their pilots to fly manually when circumstances permit.

Even so, there is little doubt that some pilots prefer to avoid manual flying as they lack confidence in themselves because of their addiction to flight directors.

The highlighted comment above is a case in point. If on night departures in general aviation types you hastily lock on to flight director at lift off and engage the autopilot "as soon as I can", then is it possible you may have a case of automation dependency without being aware of it?

[framer]

I suspects framer is one of them Labor voting types when i reads the term "Frank discussion" used when we do not yet have a ATSB report to work with.
I've voted right of centre at every election since I was eligible to vote. I'm sure nobody on here cares how I've voted but it shows that even the mighty Flying Binghi gets it wrong sometimes. At the end of the day Binghi, people are learning from this thread. You can lament the past used to be yer had a "frank discussion" after the facts were known all you like but it won't help anyone.
Have a good day, Framer

[Flying Binghi]

via framer;

...I've voted right of centre at every election since I was eligible to vote. I'm sure nobody on here cares how I've voted...

:ouch:






............

[Capt Fathom]

When I was taught Night flying. The rule was as soon as you rotate you are IFR until 1500ft then you can look out.

While that may sound good in theory, you really do need to watch where you are going!

[Capn Bloggs]

you really do need to watch where you are going!
Which you do by looking at your instruments. Surely you are not suggesting you look outside regularly at low altitude at night straight after takeoff?

[Capt Fathom]

Surely you are not suggesting you look outside regularly at low altitude at night straight after takeoff?

V F R !!

Are we still talking about the Roma incident?

[Capn Bloggs]

V F R !!
Pitch black, no lights, IFR or VFR; doesn't matter.

[Jack Ranga]

Everyone, if you didn't already know it, Flying Binghi is a complete ******** :ugh:

framer, I think everyone who actually fly's for a living or for business or for that matter in the conditions discussed understands what you are talking about, this moron obviously doesn't, don't bother with the dip**** :cool:

[Flying Binghi]

Wonder how many call signs this one operates under..:hmm:

via Jack Ranga;

Everyone, if you didn't already know it, Flying Binghi is a complete ********

framer, I think everyone who actually fly's for a living or for business or for that matter in the conditions discussed understands what you are talking about, this moron obviously doesn't, don't bother with the dip****


Hmmm... ah suspects i've given Jack Ranga a few hidings before..:)

[Jack Ranga]

Hidings? Yeah :cool: do you 'manage' Whyalla airport by any chance?

[Flying Binghi]

Yer got me concerned Jack Ranger. i been goin through some of yer old posts to see if i could understand yer outburst..:confused:

JR, i note many of your posts in the last twelve months have been fairly abusive to all. Terms like "morons", "farkwits", and "retards" liberally sprinkled through yer posts. i do hope yer not going through a hard time in yer life...

[ozaggie]

Because i am blessed to be approaching the age of senility, having completed my CPL in 1988, I was required, prior CPL airtest to have gained an instrument rating Class 4. One of the few sensible decisions our regulator has made was to change the name of that rating to NVFR. It was never intended, nor was it ever trained, to be a rating which would allow the recipient to take his attention away from doing what he or she was legally required to achieve, which is to operate and navigate the aircraft by visual means. I would suggest that any pilot who is not reasonably current with both night and instrument flying, could be expected to struggle with black hole conditions. Instrument homing (navaid) is taught in both CPL, and NVFR syllabus, but no approaches. Its to get you to a place where you can visually land. Now the comment made previously regarding being on the clocks to 1500', is I suppose quite valid for a current IFR pilot, but i would submit that the general NVFR mileu out in the GAFA would turn the country into a horizontal dartboard by adopting that principal. In low performance aircraft, that could be up to 3 mins. Cant remember in Ag the last time i climbed above 500' agl to transit to the job at night. I'd have no doubt gotten lost! Its visual, not instrument flight. If you cant get visual as soon as the Aircraft lights go out (immediately terrain clearance is assured in my case) you dont belong there. That previously mentioned 3 minutes reminds one of the average time to loss of control on entering inadvertant IMC. Correct me if I'm wrong, but 176 seconds rings a bell.
As an aside, regarding the TB20 crash at Ceduna, it had a crew trained to have the landing lights on at all times in the circuit. They are training airline pilots, so I guess thats fair enough considering most are two crew IFR machines operating out of bloody great airports with lights everywhere. My opinion only, but i would suggest that the crew would never have experienced a night climbout without lights in blackhole conditions, and never knew how to find the horizon after takeoff, because it was always presented to them by the lights of the suburbia surrounding them. Righto, enough already!
RIP. OA

[framer]

Ozaggie, do you mean that a NVFR pilot should simply not depart into a black hole?

[Jack Ranga]

Binghi, they were posts directed at me actually ;)

[framer]

Years ago on this forum I argued that the NVFR rating shouldn't exist. I did so based on my experience with SI . I felt that if I hadn't had a full IFR rating I may well have crashed. If we expect our NVFR guys to look out the window throughout the climb out we need to educate them fully on how to identify black hole conditions so that they simply stay on the ground when they exist.

[poteroo]

I did a Class 4 inst rating in 1971, on B35 and then B55's. Names such as Smeulders, Beattie, Dawe-Smith show in logbook. Testing officer was legendary John Marshall who was head FOI in Perth at the time.

After that I did quite a bit of NVFR out of places like Carnarvon, Geraldton,Meeka,Esperance and Albany.

My recollection was that they insisted on high level of actual IFR flying skill. Heads down until 1000 agl, and that included engine out ops.

Have to agree that you can argue for the night t/o being in VFR 'category'....but you really need good enough, and current, IFR skills to be reasonably safe. The illusion with a lightly loaded B55 is no easy obstacle to overcome!

happy days,

[A37575]

The illusion with a lightly loaded B55 is no easy obstacle to overcome!

happy days,

Obviously you overcame the problems associated with that illusion otherwise you would not be posting on Pprune. Could you explain how the illusion affected you?

Did it feel like marked pitchup or down and how long did the illusion last? My understanding is the illusion is only present while the aircraft is accelerating after lift off at night or in IMC. The B55 is not a fast aircraft compared to say a jet and it raises the question of instrument flying currency.

Does this only happen to pilots who are not current instrument flight pilots? Do airline pilots regularly have the acceleration illusion on night take offs? If so, how long does it last since they are constantly accelerating from typical lift off at 140 knots to final climb speed of 280 knots. The B55 likely lifts off at 80 knots and climbs at 120 knots?

[Flying Binghi]

via Avgas172 #82;
Playing devils advocate personally I prefer anything that has the potential to save another pilots / pax's life should be discussed ASAP, and that is what I have gained from this thread

via #87 "So now we know yer have never read a crash comic"

via framer #88;
What do you mean Flying Binghi? ( genuine question, not being facetious)


With all the inforemation we have to date about the thread subject have we discovered something that hasnt been covered before in the crash comics ?





.

[Capn Bloggs]

Do airline pilots regularly have the acceleration illusion on night take offs? If so, how long does it last since they are constantly accelerating from typical lift off at 140 knots to final climb speed of 280 knots.
I think the typical jet jockey does it so often that the body gets used to it. Also, much more time is spent "inside", so whether it's pitch black outside or not is largely irrelevant. Other factors are that unless you look sideways, you can't see the horizon anyway so there's no need to look outside except to avoid Dick Smith, Leadsled :} and birds. Lastly, jets don't accelerate much until at least 800-ish ft, simply maintaining V2 +, which is achieved shortly after liftoff. Although the high nose-up could test the balance thingees in the ears.

However, even if you are a jet jockey, SI can strike when you are not expecting it or able to cope with it. It has been implicated in the A330 prang at Tripoli a couple of years ago:

Illusion and ambiguous control led to Afriqiyah A330 crash (http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/illusion-and-dual-control-led-to-afriqiyah-a330-crash-382873/)

[Jabawocky]

Night departures into a black hole (inside of a cow, and a black cow at that) are to me (and I do a few) simply an instrument departure where I am busting the takeoff minima.

Yes, 300' in daylight you see more. Black hole departures are ...well black as that cows insides from about 50'.

Both deserve equal diligence in preparation, and execution. I hand fly them but have the AP preconfigured just in case I go all sneezy. Not had to hit the button yet. But its there if I need it. By flying the instruments, pegging an IAS and a known pitch up and roughly holding the heading until I reach the point I have predetermined for a turn.

This is my SOP. I do have the luxury of a piston aircraft that goes up quite well.:ok:

[Flying Binghi]

via framer #113;
Years ago on this forum I argued that the NVFR rating shouldn't exist. I did so based on my experience with SI . I felt that if I hadn't had a full IFR rating I may well have crashed. If we expect our NVFR guys to look out the window throughout the climb out we need to educate them fully on how to identify black hole conditions so that they simply stay on the ground when they exist.


Hmmm... so the thread subject pilot didn't have an IFR ticket ? Nor did he have training in VFR black hole departures ? Case closed, send the ATSB crew home.

A team of four investigators will arrive at the accident site tonight to begin the on-site investigation...
Investigation: AO-2013-057 - Collision with terrain involving Cessna T210N, VH-MEQ, 2 km west of Roma Airport, Queensland on 25 March 2013 (http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2013/aair/ao-2013-057.aspx)









.

[framer]

Fair enough FB , considering the thread title I can see that my NVFR statement could be taken as a statement about the Roma accident. It was not meant to be so I will start a new thread now entitled " Somotagravic Illusion " with the aim of preventing thread drift.
Framer.

[Capn Bloggs]

Hmmm... so the thread subject pilot didn't have an IFR ticket ? Nor did he have training in VFR black hole departures ? Case closed, send the ATSB crew home.
Typical GPS Bomber over-reaction.

[Arm out the window]

If we expect our NVFR guys to look out the window throughout the climb out we need to educate them fully on how to identify black hole conditions so that they simply stay on the ground when they exist.

We are probably all in furious agreement when it comes down to it. I think the crux of night VFR comes down to the old chestnut of 'a sensible IF / visual combination.'

Practically, that means make attitude changes on the AI and use it as the primary control instrument, but incorporate a good lookout as part of your scan. Ticks all boxes.

[compressor stall]

ATSB just released - pilot had no night rating.....

[Avgas172]

With all the inforemation we have to date about the thread subject have we discovered something that hasnt been covered before in the crash comics ? .... Otherwise known as positive reinforcement, what you read in a crash comic 30 years ago does definitely apply Bingle, it's just that I can't remember said report .... I redo my senior advanced first aid training, biennial flight review, etc etc for the same reason, hell I even just resat my aviation DG training even though I hold a Cert. 4 in DG's. As I have previously said learnt to fly in ' 87 and still learning .... :suspect:

[Flying Binghi]

Via ATSB update 26 April 2013:

"The pilot held a Private Pilot (Aeroplane) Licence, and based on available records had accumulated about 6,000 flying hours. The pilot did not hold a night visual flight rating or an instrument flight rating..."

"...The aircraft was approved for flight in night visual conditions..."

Hmmm... lot of hours for a private pilot. Fairly experienced chap.

Near all 210's came out with at least a six pack. Be interesting to know what the panel fit out were on the subject aircraft.





.

[bentleg]

ATSB report has issued
https://www.atsb.gov.au/media/5149386/ao2013057_final.pdf


As foreshadowed, night flying without the skillset.