Netjets charges

[hawker750]

In March Business Air News quote from Marine Eugene Sales Director Netjets "so we decided to create this competitively priced product". This relates to the new product of €116,000 for 25 hours of flight time on a Citation Bravo based on same day returns.
Wow! I wish I could get this sort of hourly rate. This equates to £4,000/Hr for an entry level jet.
Let's look at a day return to Geneva from London Biggin Hill. On a Citation probably 1h 25 each way. = 2.833 x 4,000 = £11,332.
Our charge for a Hawker 800 would be around £8,350 The advantages of our product are:
1/ Faster flight time
2/ Stewardess service with champagne and hot food
3/ Use of Rizen's award winning facility at Biggin
4/ Decent loo
5/ Can stand up (at least I can)
6/ APU to cool or heat you on the ground
7/ No need to give me €116,000 up front
8/ 3,000 quid in your back pocket

Have I completely missed the point of this "cost effective' product?

[FLEXJET]

Yes, sure, but how many Hawkers do you have? Any availability guarantee with a few hours notice? That's what NetJets' customers pay for don't they?

I reckon though that I'd rather shop traditional air taxi for myself! And I am pretty sure most users don't need these few NetJets advantages, at least in Europe.

[hawker750]

I have 2 Hawkers and I would guarantee availibilty at £8,350 because I| would simply sub in if I had no availability.
I think Netjets are not being honest with customers with this guaranteed availability promise. There is plenty of capacity in the charter market at much more realistic prices than £4,000 for someting that is basically is a Citation 2 but Netjets would hate to admit this to their customers

[CL300]

The real question being, how much would you charge for a Malta - Cyprus return ?
and guaranteed availability of course, within 12 hours of the call ?

[FLEXJET]

Maltese operators? Do you know how many bizjets available for charter are actually based in Malta?
If more than 2 I'd be surprised!

H750, you have defiinitely a good product, but you can't win 100% of the time! And by the way, Biggin Hill is not the favourite option in London, sorry (although I like the airfield very much).

[hawker750]

I would call one of the Maltese operators

[CL300]

Come on you are getting my point, let's say Marrakech-Ouargla or any other city pair where you need to position your aircraft there first and have it back.. If you subcontract every time, you cannot control the quality, etc. a lot of variables, too many.. and still no guarantee of availability

[HS-125]

Do you pay for positioning flights with NJE? I don't think you do?

[CL300]

Customers are not paying the positioning. They only pay occupied hours.

[cambioso]

But have you seen their "occupied hours" cost? Coupled with the monthly fees, it would make your eyes water!
Also, have you noticed how long NJ spend on the ramp engines running before moving off?
Worst kept secret in the industry................They charge the "occupied hours" from engine start - surprise surprise!!

[HS-125]

They seem to spend just as long as any other aircraft I've seen on start up?

The BE40 and the C525 need a long time anyway, especially with the BE40 requiring a GPU.

[733driver]

cambioso wrote:

Also, have you noticed how long NJ spend on the ramp engines running before moving off?
Worst kept secret in the industry................They charge the "occupied hours" from engine start - surprise surprise!!

Sorry. That is complete BS. Go on, proof me wrong.

[JonDyer]

The BE40 and the C525 need a long time anyway, especially with the BE40 requiring a GPU.

Why does the C525 need a long time?

[Globalstream]

cambioso
Also, have you noticed how long NJ spend on the ramp engines running before moving off?

Yep, they should skip the checklist and re briefs and just go like far too many GA pilots :ugh:

C'mon, how can you make an inference like that? Speed off blocks is achieved by good procedures, good flows, good checklists and a willing ATC, the latter being out of one's control. I'm confident any NJ delays are ATC or technical related as I also know that Netjets and Flex pilots are extremely proficient (at least in the US) and their operating procedures are way ahead of 99% of the rest.

In complete contrast, the majority of GA flights I have witnessed give the illusion of "speed" by skipping and generally hacking their way through the checklist. Most can barely challenge and respond let alone complete one thoroughly.

NJ can charge premium rates because it offers a premium service and most discerning clients know it.

[Delta12]

Can only agree on the previous post !

Every now and then I stood next to another plane, pax with FO/CPT enters the plane, door closed and immediately off they taxi !

Airline standards ? Checklists ? Briefings ?

I have seen enough, and the only thing I have seen so far that comes to Airline Standard in regards to professionalism and safety is NetJets !

Not saying there aint another operator as proficient as them, but I have not seen one yet.... but have seen a lot where I would have doubts and concerns being a pax....

Just my two cents

Fire at will :)

[Klimax]

The Citations with no GPU and APU should take longer to go off block - even with the "greatest" of procedures. The FMS has to be set up (I know u can activate sec plan), but there are still checks to run. No doubt that a crew knowing each other and being profiecient will expedite. However its nit about speed first - its about safety first. Credit to Netjets and buhu to common GA jet go happy go lucky pilots.

[CEQforever]

Going back to the original topic, yes, NetJets is more expensive than an ad-hoc charter, but their sales people have successfully convinced their clients that the "guaranteed availibility" and "convenience" is worth paying extra for. (and, maybe it is for some...)
Nonetheless, it is always cheaper to use a local operator from the point of departure or ask a broker to find one for you, but NJE's advertsing budget exceeds that of everybody else so this awareness won't reach the masses.

[No RYR for me]

Also, have you noticed how long NJ spend on the ramp engines running before moving off?

That is because you pay a fixed time on the ground regardless of the slot times and the time for the crew to do their checks. Unlike some cowboys that I see on the ramp waiting for the customer with one engine running and racing off NJ still considers flying a jet a crew exercise from start to finish :ok:

but their sales people have successfully convinced their clients that the "guaranteed availibility" and "convenience" is worth paying extra for. (and, maybe it is for some...)

And a lot of customers are more than happy to pay a bit more extra to get properly trained (and paid!) crew from a real operator with a real back office instead of the mom and pop operator with 2 or 3 aircraft that makes up 90% of our industry.... I have flown for both and I understand the difference in the offering and more important the execution of the product with both better than most. At NJE I have never felt pressured to fly/cut corners unlike at two "I change the world by cutting cost operators" that I flew for.... :}

[Joe le Taxi]

What hogwash about speed off blocks - I've had an (empty) airline heavy jet off blocks within 5 minutes of walking up the steps without skipping anything and all to SOP. Actually the min speed with airline style procedures can be quicker as it uses cockpit flows and nice concise checklists.

[No RYR for me]

@Joe, Haven't flown from Moscow lately I guess... :E

[His dudeness]

Lets have a slagging match, shall we ?

Allright then, you NJ skygods, if this is all you have to offer I´m quite disappointed...

What is it with you guys that you think you are so far superior? Or is it just a few on here - cause the guys one meets are usually a good bunch.

I for one am one of these "close the door and off we are" types... (my machine has an APU - that makes that way easier) and I fly always with the same colleague and the same pax. Hence no cabin briefing, hence no need to detail every and anything there is. Hence a very quick/short checklist.
We keep our briefings to the absolute minimum and the PNF does brief the PF after having recieved clearance and we usually brief only the first 3 numbers, initial hdg/track, Speed, altitude plus the 'what if' -> we both flew with guys that would chew ones ear off, with the result that no one remembers what he said in the beginning. We usually have the follow on flight plan in the box, saves you ages when you are not a tramp but know what you do next unlike you guys.

Works very well for us, at least in the sim we get good grades and we managed yet not to get a report etc.

You need airline style procedures because you are a bloody airline, but we aren`t and thus we operate as required for our type of ops.

BTW, in the Bravos I flew one has plenty of time to do checklists anyhow, since the gyros took a great deal of time to get stabilzed. In a CJ that goes within 30 to 45 seconds if P21 equipped...

[deefer dog]

Every now and then I stood next to another plane, pax with FO/CPT enters the plane, door closed and immediately off they taxi !

Airline standards ? Checklists ? Briefings ?

Airline Standards? What do they have to do with it? We are talking biz jets here! Also, to which airlines are you referring? Do they all have the same standards?

An after start check list on all Biz Jet types I have flown should take no longer than 1 minute, so perhaps you are not very familiar with your type. I can't imagine a taxi check taking more than 1, or possibly first flight of the day 2 mins, and if you need to spend more than 1 min (it is a long time you know) on your take off briefing you are boring the guy sat next to you. (For goodness sake, what needs to be stated other than where your routing is gonna take you, how high you're gonna go and what if?

Unlike some cowboys that I see on the ramp waiting for the customer with one engine running and racing off...........

So why do you think this makes me and His Dudeness cowboys? Perhaps you just need more time to accomplish what are in reality simple and straightforward procedures, maybe you need a little more practice, or perhaps you don't understand the difference between speed and haste?

[CL300]

Like it is said above, you are talking about same people, same crew, same plane. On the other hand you are talking potentially a different crew pairing everyday, a different plane everyday, 4 different customers in the day. You CANNOT compare and you SHALL not compare.
Netjets charges Airborne time + and allowance for taxi.

Netjets is IOSA approved, and operates to this and other quality certification programs that they chose to operate from. This decision is their unique decision of operating. There is no race competition, only a slot to meet; the rest is only hangar talk, no more no less.

Can Netjets be a better company ? Yes of course, like every company, there are pros and cons; one thing is for sure, if they were to publish a job opening for crews tomorrow, they will be flooded by thousands of resumes; and even from people who took the options here and then.

As far as the check lists are concerned, this is so much type dependant, let 's do the 7X FBW test in itself...and you are killing yourself...

NJE pilots are not superior, they are standardized, airline type; good or bad is not the issue, it is just a standard. Some customers likes it , other not, this is called churn rate, and like in any corporation with a lot of competition around, you need to keep it at a minimum.

So marketing is paramount in this business, and Netjets is not that bad in marketing is it not ?

Enjoy your flying, whatever you do, single pilot in a SEP to a crew of 10 in the AN225, does not matter, as long as A : you can do it; B : you are enjoying yourself...

[Delta12]

http://www.ainonline.com/sites/ainonline.com/files/fileadmin/template/main/pdfs/safety.pdf

Historically, the major scheduled airlines have had the fewest number of serious accidents and the lowest rate (the number of accidents per 100,000 flight hours), but in recent years corporate aviation has frequently surpassed the airlines.

For example, the statistics here show that last year corporate aviation had the lowest accident rate, followed by its fractional segment, with the major airlines in third place.

Air-taxi operations of both turbine and piston airplanes were ninth on the list, followed by regional airlines.

Also in keeping with the trend, general aviation as a single group had the highest accident rate when compared with the other 10 segments shown here.

To date, there still has been no fatal accident involving a fractional, and the sector’s accident rate (incidents per 100,000 hours) last year was the best of all segments of turbine-powered business aviation


Just my two cents, and maybe a good explanation why some customers are more than happy to pay the premium

[Kelly Hopper]

But the point is that Netjets has always sold it's product on the guise that it is cheaper than any other way of getting into a private jet. This is simply not true. Having studied the numbers years ago I quickly came to the conclusion that it is one of the most expensive ways, short of ownership, yet still they lose money hand over fist!

[CL300]

There is so many different contracts , depending on the plane , area, typology of flying, opt out option, put or call on selling share, etc.. that it is very unlikely that you could put these numbers right from only your perspective. the only person who knows, how good (or bad if it is the case) the deal is; is the customer who signed the deal. nobody else.
You just do not walk in, buy a couple of hours and go. the process , and business model is different. Therefore it is another segment of aviation charter. you cannot compare, or you can compare with another fractional operator; but not with a local one.
Competition is everywhere, and ressource is scarce ( AKA customer).
You will be surprised to see some balance sheet on fractional users compare to ownership or chartering, some numbers are just amazing... But you can draw the line only at the end of the contract. It is like selling a property, you know your profit when you have the money on your bank account, everything else is pure speculation. So except if you were a former Netjets customer, your words are just speculation, and not facts, aren't they?

[His dudeness]

So except if you were a former Netjets customer, your words are just speculation, and not facts, aren't they?

Well that depends on how accurate and honest the numbers of the NJE marketing is..."we" (aka my company) get their numbers every half a year or so, based on what they tell us its more expensive still than own your own airplane if you do a fair bit of flying (not for a 50hrs a year client of course)...

[733driver]

Kelly Hopper,

I don't remembers a campaign that suggested that NetJets was the cheapest way to fly privately. Yes, they said cheaper than full ownership but that's all I can remember. It's true that they are expensive, not sure about the "losing money" bit in recent years.

I "think" from about 400hrs a year (depending on a lot of variables) full ownership is cheaper. But full ownership also means you still end up chartering when the aircraft goes tech or is in scheduled maintenance.

[silverknapper]

733driver

Agree with half your post. Net jets never marketed themselves as cheap. And I do think they have their place. But the break even point at net jets prices is way way less than 400 hours.

[Globally Challenged]

My employer is an ex-NJE customer and he spent quite a bit of time in my interview (as a former NJE pilot) telling me what was wrong with the company, cost never came into it.

[g450cpt]

Depends on where the principle is located (ie near a charter hub to eliminate reposition costs) and what kind of trips the principle is doing. Is he going out and back in a day or is he staying at the destination for a week? As a full charter customer one doesn't have much say in the age, type of plane, or crew that the charter operator uses. Does he only want to fly on newer aircraft. Is he will willing to buy a 1/16th share, 1/8 share or a 1/4 share? There are a lot of variables that come into play when you try to determine if charter, fractional, or full ownership is the best option. IMHO less that 100 hrs in a year, he is better off chartering (if the reposition or loss of revenue costs don't hurt too much). Between 100 hrs and 200 hrs is a good number to look at a fractional. Over 200 hrs in a year and he is better off with full ownership. All of this I have first hand experience with as I was chief pilot for an owner who cut his hours and wanted to go fractional. I was responsible for going over the fractional contracts and making sure all was legit. All contracts are a little different and each client has different needs, so one must do their homework to really find out what option best suits the principle.

[Scroll Lock]

His dudness,:8
Having read your drivel, I am surprised to see your age as 46 !

I ask, most politely and respectively for your aircraft registration.....
....so that I can avoid you on the ramp ( and most definitely in the air ) at all costs.

Either you are having a laugh, and sh!t stirring ( something I too have been guilty of ), or you have a dangerous cavalier attitude to aviation, with scant regard to the safety of your crew, passengers or fellows pilots.

However, having ranted off, I do hope that no emergency befalls you or your aircraft, and that should that ever happen, it be at a time when you felt it "professional" to brief your crew and your pax.

cheers.

Oh, and cambioso...you are so wrong, I cant even describe it !!

[cambioso]

If I am SO wrong.................Why can't you describe it??
Anyway, which bit,
- the standing on the ramp engines running for 10 mins, or the eye watering prices?

[Scroll Lock]

NJE charges only for take-off to landing.
Any fool can see that it is impossible to charge for ground time in totality as its an unknown quantity.
Youve obviously never been told youre number 12 for departure at LHR, FRA,MUN,VKO....the list is long.

As for the price they charge, WTF has that got to with you ? Or me?

:ugh:

[hawker750]

Charges
It has been mentioned on this thread that Netjet charge their customers only for airborne time plus an allowance for taxiing. Other people say they charge from when the engines start running. What is the correct version?
Anyway why are they charging anything other than airborne to touchdown times. To charge block hours or an allowance for taxiing is conning the clients. All their DOC costs for maintenance, engine programme, Nav fees are based on takeoff/touchdown times apart from a few pounds for taxi fuel. Are they charging the full "occupied rate" for the taxi allowance or just the cost of the fuel?
Our charges are only based on TO/Ldg times

[hawker750]

As for waiting on stand ages before taxiing; I agree and it can sometimes mess other aircraft around. At some airports the " queue for departure" seems to depend on request for start time. You request start up 1 minute after Netjets, call for taxi 2 minutes later and have to wait for ages whilst Netjets gets it act together.
Our SOP's state that departure briefings, FMS set ups etc are all done prior to engine start. I agree that 2 minutes is perfectly feasable and safe to start 2 engines and do the after start checklist correctly and unrushed. Perhaps the reason we can do it is that we offer our customers a premium service with cabin attendant, whereas Netjets normally ask their pilots on the Hawkers to be coffee servers as well. That means both pilots are in their seats (airline style) when the passengers board and can devote their time to their duties without the time wasting of passenger briefings, showing the passengers were the peanuts are etc etc. I am surprised Netjet clients stand for all this waiting around.

[CL300]

From the Netjets Europe website : airborne time + 6 minutes each end.

When you fly, only occupied flying hours are deducted from your card, plus six minutes of taxi time at each end of the flight.

[hawker750]

Thank you CL
So a round trip of 1 hour each way ie 120 minutes is charged as 144 minutes (2 hours + 4 x 6) .This is effectively increasing the rate by 20%. In the case of a citation the rate goes up from £4,000/Hr to £4,800/Hr. Do Netjet customers realise that 6 minutes of taxi tine costs about £30 not £400? I would think it rather sharp business practice not to point this out.
Am I Netjet bashing? Just a bit I suppose but the established charter businesses are getting rather hacked off at the attempts by one of the world's richest men to try and turn around a failed business model by further encroaching on the business models of others. Doing so by fair competition is one thing but by just throwing money at it and trying to convince customers that £4,800/Hr for a Citation is cost effictive is annoying to say the least.

[CL300]

Then it is NOT a cost issue...Customers have the choice, you just cannot tie them to you for ever. If , at the end of the day you have a better deal than the competition, that you are doing your homework, you can even increase your prices, since your "prime competitor" is selling it's flights at an higher price than yours. I would have understood, if Netjets were to sell at a LOWER price, indeed, undermining the market; but it looks like it is not the case..

Question asked : where DO YOU FAIL ?

[hawker750]

CL
It is not really a price of product issue it is a cash resources issue in so far as WB has enough money to mount an advertising campaign to convince the Arabs they need to buy sand. Spend enough and they will buy it. I cannot do that.

[OutsideCAS]

I think we are confusing what is fair with the reality of the situation - if WB/NJets can throw money at glossy advertising etc. then that is the way it is. This is business i'm afraid, and the survival will be borne by the strongest as in most things in life, even if that means convincing the arabs to buy sand. If clients are happy to pay the NJ prices then that is their choice, doesn't matter if it is a higher price etc., etc.

[Delta12]

deefer dog, His Dudeness,

never said that YOU are cowboys ! Show me where ! If you understood my post like that -> apologies ! How could I judge you, I dont even know you guys.

I have seen a lot in GA ! I have seen that much that I personally, if I would win the lottery and would like to fly in a private jet (probably never happens :{) I would choose NetJets.

Why ?

I would be quite happy to pay the premium and feel as safe as if I would board a LH, BA or AF flight !

From what I have seen after 13 years flying GA and 6000 hrs, and the statistics say I am not totally off the track, GA in general is NOT the safest way to fly !

Statistics here again: http://www.ainonline.com/sites/ainonline.com/files/fileadmin/template/main/pdfs/safety.pdf

My personal experiences:

Crew 24/7 on standby
Roster = A roster in GA is not possible (germany)
Wages = low low low (germany again)(which I personally find irritating, flying VVIP's and getting paid like flying a day old newspapers to a remote island
MEL issues = If you aint missing a wing, you are only allowed to write it up in the homebase !
Safety = As long as the books look ok.....

That is just my experience. Yours might be different (hopefully) !

[Delta12]

Strange, that big of an attack vs NetJets, and then after my (imho) tough reply, no further reply ?

Go Ahead, make my day :)