Ascoteers ?

[smujsmith]

Notwithstanding a previous post by Salad Dodger re the trivial threads being posted on this Mil forum, and also the fact that despite logging around 5000 hours of flying in RAF C130's I was never classed as 'military aircrew', I will post this and hope the moderators see it for what it is, a genuine search for knowledge.

I started my time in the RAF at Colerne as part of a Hercules Base 3 servicing team, after several tours I ended up back on 'Albert' as a GE ( where the flying hours came from) and was well aware that our routes were given codes depending on the Mk of aircraft and destination ie: 4021 was a MK 1 aircraft on the Deci schedule via Wildenrath. A number beginning 5*** would dictate a Mk 3 (Stretch) being used. VC10 routes were 2****, Tristar 3****. At all times I was aware that the number was prefixed with the 'company call sign' ASCOT. And here lies the nub of the question. I was told by a Pilot of my acquaintance that the word is an acronym of Air Support Command Operational Tasking. He also told me that local trainers from Lyneham, Brize etc should not be prefixed with ASCOT if it was not a 'route' trip. I have certainly been on trips to Newcastle from Lyneham where the call sign ASCOT 943 was used. I wonder if anyone can help with the following:

What is the validity in the claim that the ASCOT call sign was derived as above ?

Are there any other Royal Air Force call signs which have a similar historical precedent ?

I apologise to Salad Dodger if my question infringes his feelings of correctness in proffering content to this 'community'. It may well be that way back in the past this particular subject has been well and truly dealt with. I'm just very curious, and old enough to find it interesting.

Smudge

[Wholigan]

You don't have to apologise for posing questions in here.

If anyone else thinks they are trivial or "unworthy", they don't have to spend any time on them.

[smujsmith]

Wholigan

Thanks for that. I just felt a bit 'awkward' after S-D had his rant earlier. Like you I believe if you think it's trivia etc, ignore it :ok: I would love to know where ASCOT comes from though

Smudge

[ksimboy]

Air Support Command Operational Transport (or On Task) depends which sad old ex tg 9 biff you talk to .

[ksimboy]

Smuj, it wouldn't be the first silly question you ever asked me in those long hours down the back of the big grey-green party machine.

[smujsmith]

Oops, ksimboy, never knew a loadie who could answer questions whilst making coffee :rolleyes:

[ksimboy]

What's this coffee malarkey? It took me 6000 hours before I realised there was a galley on Albert!

[Whopity]

The call-sign ASCOT was the invention of Basil D'Olivera boss of 216 Sqn when they operated the VIP Comets at Lyneham. It did stand for Air Support Command Operational Transport. One of the unforeseen problems with this call-sign is that it also meant Shut-Up in Arabic ("Ooskoot")

[ksimboy]

Whopity many thanks for the confirmation. Although I am now seriously concerned that something I was taught on basic AATC course in 76 is still there. I really need to get out more I feel !

[sangiovese.]

I always thought it meant "Arrive Sir? Chance Of Tomorrow"

[Tankertrashnav]

Don't apologise. Anyone who has spent 5,000 hours down the back of a Hercules can ask what he likes, as far as I'm concerned.

About 100 (or that's what it felt like) transiting to Masirah for crew positioning was quite enough for me :(

[ICM]

I've little doubt that Wg Cdr D'Oliveira had a hand in the derivation of the ASCOT callsign, but I suspect that he was by then on the staff at Upavon, at the time when Transport Command became Air Support Command (1 August 1967). Significantly, this was also the period during which management comms for the Air Transport Force were brought up to date, and the Flight Watch system was introduced. This involved HQ ASC buying into contracts with global civilian signals agencies and, as a consequence, the Command had to apply to ICAO to register a company callsign, ASCOT, together with a two-letter designator, RR.

And for what it's worth, my recollection was that the T stood for Task. Also, whatever happens now, to begin with and for many years afterwards, the ASCOT callsign would only have been used with a 4-digit task number issued via Upavon.

Before all this, we used the RAFAIR MABCD type of callsign for route tasks, but that's all a long time ago now!

[smujsmith]

Well, ICM, that seems pretty definitive. And it seems my original informant was pretty well correct. My interest in all this derives from wondering if there was any follow on ( for want of better words) from the sort of call signs individual fighter squadrons had during WW2. Having noted previously that the AT fleet seem to have adopted ASCOT as their call sign, do Bomber/Fighter/MPA squadrons use individual or a similar type prefix for their relevant squadrons?

Ksimboy.

You were the only Loadie who woke me up, half way across the pond, to make the Eng a cup of tea, because I belonged to a similar trade. Bless you, and the galley was near the front of the aircraft. My hammock was over the ramp :hmm:

Smudge

[ksimboy]

Smudge, the eng was traditionally the other Baldrick on the crew , sat in middle of two driver fellas with those little clock things in front of him? You must remember I was rarely allowed up where the windows were lol.

[Roadster280]

I'm most certainly not an Ascoteer, being Army, but I worked with a lot of Master Aircrew, commisssioned NCA and the odd naughty-boy nav at Upavon for HQ 1Gp MAOTs. One thing I remember is being told it stood for "Air Support Command Overseas Transport". That would seem to tie in with the assertion that UK jobs didn't count.

I don't have a dog in this fight, but that's what the old & bold (and the odd stupid boy) told me. Two in particular stand out. An absolute dinosaur with the initials JM who was ex-Andovers before going rotary, and another ex-Herc guy, Williams of Wales. They both waxed lyrical about their days as Ascoteers. But then again it was 20years ago, and I was but a NIG.

[Dan Winterland]

''Don't apologise. Anyone who has spent 5,000 hours down the back of a Hercules can ask what he likes, as far as I'm concerned.''

But the reply had better be loud!

"Pardon?"

[ExAscoteer]

2500 hrs on Albert.

AFAIR ASCOT stood for Air Support Command Operational Tasking.

In my time on the mighty Herc, ASCOT callsigns (4xxx for a Mk1, 5xxx for a Mk3) were only ever used for a/c doing Routes.

UK Training tasks such as MCT/CPT used a LYE C/S.

UK Op Training tasks (such as a LL air drop) used a 5 character alpha-numeric.

[AGS Man]

I think you will find that the royal Flight Callsigns have historical significance. Not sure if they are classified so I won't name them. Especially as Charlie is in Saudi at the moment, don't want to hear Orf with his head!!!

[ancientaviator62]

13000 hrs on the 'K'.
I agree with Whopity, as that was the story I was told. Smudge did you have a daughter who was in the ATC ? Good reason for the question !

[smujsmith]

Ancient aviator.

Yes I did.

[Wrathmonk]

I always thought it meant "Arrive Sir? Chance Of Tomorrow"

Surely you mean "Arrive 'Scuse ranks mate? Chance Of Tomorrow" ;)

[FantomZorbin]

AGS Man

I think the cat is out of the bag by now ... http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/490445-personal-callsign-vs-aircraft-registration.html ;)

[smujsmith]

Fantom

Thanks for that link, it explains a lot about call signs. It seems to me that whilst the ASCOT prefix is used across the RAF AT Fleet, individual squadrons have their own call signs. So on a Tornado F3 Base with 3 Squadrons, you could expect three different call sign prefixes. That probably answers my original post, thanks again for that!

Smudge

[ancientaviator62]

Smudge,
we took a Herc across to Hullavington for some training with the aeromed squadron based there. After that exercise we flew some air cadets around. When I was checking that they were strapped in correctly before take off one of them said that she knew how the straps worked as her dad was a Herc G/E. I looked at her and there staring me in the face was a younger female version of yourself ! I said to her is 'your dad is smudge Smith ?' I did not really need her reply of 'yes'. No DNA testing required here !
Trust you are well.

[smujsmith]

Ancientaviator

Yep, that would be my girl. I'm fine thanks, and hope that you are likewise. We obviously did a trip or so together at some point. Happy days.

Smudge

[charliegolf]

there staring me in the face was a younger female version of yourself ! I said to her is 'your dad is smudge Smith ?

For her sake Smudge, I hope you are better looking than most gingerbeers I remember!:ok:

CG

[smujsmith]

CG

I may well be the epitome of good looking as far as Ground Engineers go. With the exception of the obviously outstanding, coat throwing M Libby Esquire;)

Smudge

[ksimboy]

Aha the "L" word rears its medallioned head yet again lol

[smujsmith]

:ok: now we are going into a different thread entirely. But I agree. Anyway, ASCOT ( A Servicemens Carouse On Tour) !!

[ancientaviator62]

Smudge,
during my almost 30yrs on the 'K' I had the pleasure of flying with you several times as well as most of your fellow G/E's. The one on the 'gold standard' must be very wealthy mow due to the price of gold !

[smujsmith]

:ok: too true mate. The bloke has an affinity to gold, which is not a bad idea at the moment. I convey best wishes from a certain Tucker Thompson also. Stay safe and keep posting.

Smudge

[Trumpet_trousers]

sat in middle of two driver fellas

Ah, methinks you are referring to "The Stagecoach Driver".... You know, the one who sits there looking at a pair of a*seholes in front of him! :E

[Top Bunk Tester]

sat in middle of two driver fellas

Ah, methinks you are referring to "The Stagecoach Driver".... You know, the one who sits there looking at a pair of a*seholes in front of him!

All you have to do is remember where Capt Kirk/Picard (Agegroup dependant) sat on the bridge of the Enterprise and you can work out who the most important member of the crew on Albert was ;)

[ExAscoteer]

Probably the Loadie on account of keeping us fed and watered!

[Geezers of Nazareth]

Probably old news, and not necessarily relevant now ...

'Ascot 8***' were 60 Sqdn operating Pembrokes and (latterly) Andovers from Wildenrath.

'Ascot 1066' was used by BCBS Hastings, (allegedly) because the aircraft were that old!

'Ascot 9***' - used by various tankers trails, both the 'tanker' and the 'tankee'.

'Ascot 6***' - used by the C17s

'Ascot 7***' - used by various 'grey' things - E-3s, Sentinels, and those funny little grey things at Northolt.

</anorak-mode>

[1066]

I don't recall BCBS/STCBS ever using an ASCOT callsign. (69-73)
Within UK daily changing tri-graph + 2 numbers.
Overseas those infernal, tongue twisting MIKE 5 letter callsigns!
Being Bomber/Strike Commands there was no way Air Support Command would have let anyone else use ASCOT!

QFIs on 242OCU/HCS at LYE had 3 digit personnal ASCOT callsigns. (84-87 I was 772)

Wholigan good post #2

1066

[smujsmith]

Ex Ascoteer

The Loady would get my vote every time. :ok:

[ExAscoteer]

Smuj,

All except for the 'Dormouse', a well known Loadie on 'Dirty Firty', who was usually asleep by the time the GTC started up!

[Lockstock]

... or the Loady called 'Famine' for obvious reasons. :}

[ksimboy]

Unusual for the loadie to wait that long before nodding off lol. Many happy memories of quality routes and people on Albert over the years. Nice to hear Tucker mentioned.

[smujsmith]

Loadie stories now developing !

A bit "off piste" for this thread, but could this be the gamete of a new thread. Whilst I, as a mere life form of lower, "hammock like" existence, can see that the RAF Loadmaster is, and has always been, the prime contact between the "uber fliegers" at the front and the freight, passengers, and the rest of us down the back. Surely it's time to bust some myths about the "half winged toaster race" ?

C'mon Loadies lets see a Loadies thread, I have some input.

Smudge :eek:

[brakedwell]

You are correct ICM. Our first question when the Ascot callsign was introduced was: What the hell does it stand for?
The answer from Upavon - Air Support Command Operational Task

[Ken Scott]

All you have to do is remember where Capt Kirk/Picard (Agegroup dependant) sat on the bridge of the Enterprise and you can work out who the most important member of the crew on Albert was

And yet on the 'Super Hercules' 'Sulu & Chekov' seem to cope perfectly well without 'Kirk' looking over their shoulders..........

(Damn, might've just given away my agegroup!)

[ksimboy]

Ken, a massive step forward on the "J" as the loadie (while sitting in the middle seat doesnt have to get out of the seat to make a drink . Isnt progress great!! ;)

[Willard Whyte]

And yet on the 'Super Hercules' 'Sulu & Chekov' seem to cope perfectly well without 'Kirk' looking over their shoulders...

...and without a science officer sat to the side either.

[Top Bunk Tester]

Don't think Ckekov & Sulu are exempt, the 'Reaper' will get everybody in the end ............... If you believe Popular Mechanics or British Waste O Space ;)

[ksimboy]

Smuj , no need for a loadies thread, the BBC already do one. I believe it's called Crimewatch.

[smujsmith]

Ksimboy

Oh you bad lad :ok:

[OKOC]

Not a Loady I know but whatever happened to Es Levens?

[Tourist]

You may be interested to know, or perhaps not, that the Ascot call sign was not limited to the RAF.

I have flown under an Ascot call sign countless times on a RN Sqn

[smujsmith]

Tourist,

Pray do tell, Navy Ascot ?

Chaps,

You just mentioned the ugliest member of an RAF Aircrew I can remember (L Evans esq.). Troops on motorways etc, but my god, thankfully, the GE fraternity were always selected for their good looks and astounding brain power. :hmm:

[Top Bunk Tester]

That'll cost you a crate Smudge, mentioning that name. Should only be referred to as Lima Echo :}

[smujsmith]

TBT,

Fair cop mate, where and when do I pay up ?:eek:

[ExAscoteer]

Lima Echo?

Dear God, now I have to go and lie down in a darkened room!

[ksimboy]

L E last heard of scaring small children and pets in Wiltshires answer to the Arkansas boonies ( aka Calne)

[fergineer]

You guys are so cruel about Lima Echo you should be ashamed of yourselves!!!!!! Good times on the fleet and always had time for the GE.

[Bengerman]

Ah! Lima Echo, the finest ground school instructor I ever met in aviation!

Handsome, erudite, concise and enthusiastic, what more could one want?

[brakedwell]

What does erudite mean :O

[Courtney Mil]

It's a type of glue.

[smujsmith]

Bengerman

"What more could one want ?" - A decent pair of spectacles might help :8

[Tourist]

Heron Flight (RIP) and occasionly 750 NAS used to fly with an Ascot callsign for some of the tasking.

[smujsmith]

Tourist

750 Squadron, was that when they used the Sea Prince ? I remember seeing the Heron once ISTR. Thanks for that its surprising where Ascot has been used.

Smudge

[Tourist]

http://i404.photobucket.com/albums/pp121/Tourist_photos/750smallcompilation.jpg

A full range of toys!!

Yes, Sea Prince and Sea Devon in amongst there.

[smujsmith]

Tourist

Great chart, a smashing record of the Squadron. Thanks :ok:

Smudge

[OKOC]

I often wondered-did Lima Echo wear a toupee or was that his real hair?

[smujsmith]

I have to admit, I never noticed the hair, the perfect "gurn" of bottom lip over nose ensured that I got back to my hammock on the ramp ASAP. :=

Smudge

[Bill4a]

I may be getting old but I'm pretty sure that the "Brit" that took me to Singapore in 1965 belonged to Transport Command and used the Ascot call sign which I think it was restricted to the fixed wing elements Brits and Comets etc. It's a good story but as Ascot seems to predate lAir Support Command I'm not convinced. :}

[mcdhu]

Let us not forget the other really superb piece of work that Wg Cdr Basil d'Oliviera achieved when he went to Upavon after his tour as OC 216 which was to introduce the system of allowances that RAF Ascoteers lived off until at least 1996 when I left, and probably longer. HM paid for the bed, and a claim was put in for meals when one was on the ground.

This system was fair and was the envy of the pointy yank and bank merchants and the RN transport guys too!

mcdhu

[sparkie]

I have enjoyed reading the banter thread re ASCOT, sorry I am not a shiny aircrew type but I can claim to be one of the guys on the other end of your H/F SSB link, and served at various Flight Watch locations during my 37 years such as Upavon/Gibraltar/Cyprus/Gan and Singer,s, where the ASCOT c/s became very much part of my working life.

Sadly I can still recall many of the SELCAL codes including some VC10 (EGAL and EGAK) Hercs (AHJM AKDL etc) and many is the time I have fiddled with the SELCAL buttons whilst realigning the LogP aerial to secure a ''SELCAL watch'' with an a/c.

Prior to SSB of course it was all wiggly amps and Samuel Morse, ears straining through crackling atmospherics trying to pick out the dits and dahs, and R/T messages that often faded into oblivion (QSB)

One of the best a/c c/s I found to send in morse was the Flight Checker IRIS, it really flowed off the key...will stop waffling now and return to my cubby hole

[smujsmith]

Hiya Sparkie, or should we say Architect ? I can certainly say I was grateful for the odd HF Link to SWMBO to explain my 5 day delay down route etc. all during routine HF Testing of course :rolleyes: you boys and girls were also part of the team, and, a link home when a long way away.:ok: also remember ARINC, another "link"

Smudge

[WIDN62]

sparkie,

Flight watch - a wonderful system - I bet we have spoken. One day in the early 70s, I was flying across the south of Australia on a VIP trip and something broke. It was decided we needed a spare positioning at the next stop where we had a few days off and if we could get an HF message home, the spare could be on the way before we landed. Thinking I could get some relays across the world, I called Singapore FW. After a number of calls without an answer, Upavon came in loud and clear and offered to do a relay for me - "No thank you, it's you I needed to speak to in the first place!" I wonder how many times that call bounced off the earth?

[brakedwell]

I wonder how many times that call bounced off the earth?

I think the Ionosphere deserves a word of thanks :ok:

[smujsmith]

Skip bounce, I believe was the expression. I also remember that we had some charts, probably only understood by the Navs, which gave you different HF freqs for different regions and times of the day. Anyone remember those ? My best "phone home"whilst airborne was over the Pyramids. It was quite surreal talking to Mrs Smudge about my daughters school report with Cheops floating by below, and, the whole crew rolling their eyeballs when she told me to stop being a prat and listen it was important. That was me told !:O

[OmegaV6]

Yup, I remember those charts .. published in the en-route supplement IIRC :)

I remember being U/S in Diego Garcia .. a place you DON'T want to be stuck in, trying desperately to get a phone patch home and exploring every frequency known to man to no avail. In desperation tried the "civvy" HF net, ended up talking to Quaintarse Sydney, who patched me to their London office, who got a conference call to Upavon and Lyneham.... bit was ordered, went to Fairford and came out via USAF jet the next day, we left just 48 hour delayed.. :)

Nice international rescue we thought !! :)

[smujsmith]

As mentioned, I always found it a bit hit and miss. The most reliable way of getting a quick natter with SWMBO was to get the Co to fix up a reverse charge call through ARINC HF to your home phone. After my first attempt I remember well finally getting home and having to explain that due to lag etc, in future calls we would say "over" when ready to hear from the other end. I'm sure most of the following attempts gave the crew something to laugh about (SWMBO not too good on the taking instructions side). Aaaahh, all happy days, and all part of being part of an Ascot team down route.

Smudge

[brakedwell]

Portishead was very good for phone patches. I had an account with them when I flew long haul out of Vienna.

[ExAscoteer]

They were called HF Propagation Prediction Charts. They were published by 1 (later) 38 Gp and carried by the Co. I had a 'plastic brain' (Aircrew Information Folder) full of the bloody things.

The ERC merely gave HF Frequencies but did not really predict their usability any more than in a very basic way.

Smuj, I remember getting you a reverse charges 'Phonepatch' via Portishead Radio on more than one occasion. ARINC was more used in places Easterly.

Of course, with Portishead, if you were in the S Hemisphere with an ASCOT C/S they gave you the phonepatch for free.

[smujsmith]

ExAscoteer

I forgot about Portishead. And thanks for getting me a line home :ok: I always worried about the cost on our phone bill, but never remember being billed. So your last comment would explain it.

Smudge

[sparkie]

Nice to read the comments about Flight Watch use, we were always glad of the 'business' particularly on those long night shifts, listening on several frequencies at once with QRM and other static noises did tend to grate on the brain after a while.

Phone patches were often a challenge, particularly if the QSO was weak but I did, on many occasions patch an HRH through to Buck House, or a VVIP to a Government department. Once the callers at either end remembered to day over we had it sussed :)

Started out my Flight Watch days in Singapore (JATCC Paya Lebar) when R/T and C/W were still very much in ''fashion'' with Brittania/Comet Ascots, as well as the Beverleys out of Seletar and Hastings out of Changi, not to mention the Kiwi Bristol Vibrators. Then technology advanced and SSB moved in consigning many of the AEO slots to posterity and in its place came the flashing light and pinging bell of SELCAL...no need for any cockpit crew to QAP after than:*

Mind you it was pretty efficient and on more than one occasion when at Upavon, with the right frequency, a log P aerial and time of day I managed a successful SELCAL check with an ASCOT just airborne from Kai Tak

Happy days oh well back to the App I can hear Gander trying to contact a Speedbird :)

[ExAscoteer]

'And thanks for getting me a line home'

More than welcome Smuj.

I think I am on record here as saying that GEs (and SVCs) were always IMO part of the/my crew.

[mole man]

Only a few C130 hrs, Started flying in 1977 and still flying at 60 years old.

Mole Man:ok:

[smujsmith]

Mole man,

What C130s ???? Respect indeed. It's the Ascot call sign that pulls all sorts together I think. I regularly have a beer or three with an ex VC10 GE and we both feel that we are bonded by the Ascot call sign. I have a good friend who has been an extended tour Herk GE and also a Tristar GE, again Ascot hangs it together. I have many ex Aircrew who I count as good mates from the Ascot world, I can't say that for my former life as, ground crew on 56 Lightning Squadron, MEAF Bomber wing or various other flying units I worked with/for. Something about the Ascot fleet that was all inclusive, very friendly and certainly gave me the best years of my 30 years served.

[Onceapilot]

Thankyou Sparkie and all other "flightwatch" operators! Great service over 30 odd years of HF use. Had some great help with operational comms at very long range and always had a flightdeck giggle at "standby while I swing my aerial". However, most appreciated were possibly the private phone patches from a long way away. I am certain I had calls from the S.Atlantic to UK and a long way N,S,E and W on regular basis and, my phone bills proved it!
Seriously, there was a flightsafety side and, the lifeline of HF comm when, literally, 1000 miles from a usable airfield was worth all the effort! Great help from lots of agencies, Portishead (porpoisehead), Falcon Bahrain etc, etc. On the less long-range side, the North Atlantic would often impress with great service from Gander, Shanwick, New York and Santa Maria. I apologise for when my technique might have been lacking but, I did my best as a user!

OAP

[gopher01]

As one who spent to many hours down the back of Albert over two tours as a G/e ( 6 years the first and another four after being resurrected when the Gulf fracas took place ), I saw the mention of the above personage and wonder if anyone remembers the M Libby memorial posing mirror we arranged for in the accommodation in Riyadh during the 1st Gulf war. When Mick joined us in the compound he was astounded that we did not have a full length mirror in our rooms, so as a matter of priority, we arranged for the accommodation manager to find and install one to the satisfaction of the sainted one. Happy memories, along with London water, Caribbean water, Russian water all being shipped into Saudi from Bahrain!

[smujsmith]

Gopher

Well, the waters were well and truly sampled. I'm sure we shared a drop or two. I'm thinking that compound was some of the best down route accomodation I ever experienced. I do remember Libby's mirror. If you think about it, it was nice of him to join us for a while, he was used to more "up market" stuff. :ok:

Smudge

[sparkie]

Onceapilot glad to be of service, much enjoyed working H/F SSB although having joined as a wireless op in the early 60's, morse was always my favourite. Later on once the Brittania, Hasting and Beverley's were gone we only had the Shack and Nimrod to ''practice'' with:) mind you when we suggested change to c/w in bad QRM there tended to be a reluctance to use the key:=

Hey ho many moons ago, now its all computer managed. Such is progress:ugh: