Salaries...

[Cecco]

Latest I heard in Germany: 1400€ gross for a C525 FO in Germany...2200€ gross for a C605 FO, SSTR plus fees for the six ldgs is deducted from the salary, work contract is only offered after the TR...

Cecco

[OutsideCAS]

Not worth considering.

[Max Payne]

Latest I heard from Austria: 1.800 - 2.000 EUR as F/O on a Hawker, have to be typed, experienced on type and move to Vienna. :rolleyes:

[Globally Challenged]

And on the other end of the scale, I met someone recently in Turkey on $10k Net per month with free rating and 2 weeks on/2 weeks off flying an AOC CL30

[noneya]

2012 Salary Survey from Pro Pilot Magazine
FO Postion
Super Midsize Jets

Average Low High
Challenger 300 73,000 58,000 83,000
Citation X 78,000 64,000 89,000
Embraer Legacy 68,000 53,000 80,000
Falcon 50/50EX 74,000 56,000 85,000
Gulfstream G200/Galaxy 67,000 52,000 80,000
Hawker 4000 (Horizon) 73,000 58,000 83,000

Midsize jets

Citation III/VI/VII 58,000 49,000 73,000
Citation Excel 56,000 46,000 63,000
Citation Sovereign 62,000 52,000 78,000
Falcon 20/200 51,000 40,000 63,000
Gulfstream G100/G150/Astra 57,000 48,000 71,000
Hawker 600/700 54,000 38,000 62,000
Hawker 800/800XP/1000 63,000 52,000 76,000
Hawker 850/850XP/900/900XP 67,000 53,000 79,000
Learjet 35/36 50,000 39,000 58,000
Learjet 40/40XR/45/45XR 58,000 48,000 67,000
Learjet 55/60 60,000 51,000 71,000
Westwind I/II 45,000 34,000 54,000

[Energetic Pilot]

is this Euro or US-$?

one cannot compare gross € (EU) and gross $ (US) as health insurance, pension ... is all deducted from the gross salary!

Is threr such a table also for EU-€?

[noneya]

Its in $..... It is put out in Pro Pilot once a year, from a survey of the industry.

Never seen one over here in Europe with Pounds or Euro's.

[Cecco]

For FOs, it´s generally around 2000€-2300€ gross for light jets. @Noneya, your salary survey is too good to be true...

[733driver]

Nope. Not too good to be true. The Salaries in Germany and Austria are just too low. The survey covers mostly the USA and also looks at charter, fractional and corporate separatelly IIRC

[noneya]

Cecco I did not make them up they come straight out of Professional Pilot Magazine.

Here is another exert for Heavy Jets..
Captain
Heavy intl jets

Average Low High
Airbus ACJ318/319 145,000 127,000 180,000
Boeing 727 124,000 102,000 145,000
Boeing 737/BBJ 145,000 127,000 175,000
Challenger 600/601 118,000 89,000 148,000
Challenger 604/605 125,000 97,000 164,000
Falcon 7X 133,000 101,000 171,000
Falcon 900/900EX 129,000 98,000 170,000
Global Express/Global 5000 146,000 108,000 191,000
Gulfstream IV/G450 134,000 99,000 167,000
Gulfstream V/G550 145,000 113,000 182,000

First officer/copilot
Heavy intl jets

Average Low High
Airbus ACJ318/319 92,000 76,000 108,000
Boeing 727 86,000 69,000 96,000
Boeing 737/BBJ 92,000 77,000 111,000
Challenger 600/601 76,000 68,000 88,000
Challenger 604/605 84,000 74,000 97,000
Falcon 7X 91,000 76,000 104,000
Falcon 900/900EX 90,000 75,000 103,000
Global Express/Global 5000 92,000 77,000 105,000
Gulfstream IV/G450 89,000 75,000 100,000
Gulfstream V/G550 92,000 77,000 109,000

[FLEXJET]

Those in Germany can thank Gerhard Shroeder and his "2010 agenda" launched back in 2003.
Sure Germany is or has been competitive as an investor point of view (and as for tourists).
But for how long? Once the wealth of babyboomers will have been spent, I wonder... I am also afraid Chinese will soon be kindly invited to buy more local.

If you compare the Gross salaries vs Net, my experience is that the difference can vary up to 4 times within Europe!
And please don't compare with offshore salaries...

[Cecco]

Ok, so the survey is accurate...however, in Germany and Austria, FO salaries are atrociously low, Switzerland is ok. I don´t know about other European countries...anybody from the UK or France step forward please...

Cecco

[Globally Challenged]

From memory, my net pay in the RHS of a NJE excel with a UK gateway was in the region of £3100 per month + something like £800-900 per diems (€4600 with today's rate)

I took redundancy and a free rating to fly for a private owner on a UK based CL30 (working significantly less than I used to) for a net of £2800 + something like £650 per diems (€4000 with today's rate)

[CaptainProp]

The Pro pilot "average" salaries, but with a € sign in front of the number, is probably a good reference point if you ask me. That number should come with daily allowance, health insurance and a pension though.

[Wetdream]

I'm starting to feel ripped off now :confused: :yuk:

[Energetic Pilot]

Cpt. Prop,

this means for an CL604/5 F/O 84.000 EURO gross + per diems?

hm, too optimistic!

You can be glad to get that figure as Cpt.

[Globally Challenged]

I would say £60-70k gross for a rated RHS CL604/5 is reasonable (particularly for the UK market)

[Energetic Pilot]

You are absolutely right, Joe l.t. These figures may be realistic in UK but not on the crazy German/Austrian Market. Here you ll never get 80k EUR gross as an CO, rated or not. If yes tell me where ;-)

[Max Payne]

Solution: Avoid German / Austrian companies. :=

[flydive1]

Solution: Avoid German / Austrian companies. :=

Agree, Austrian in particular, they are really bringing down the T&C

Couple of year ago I was offered a job as Captain on long range business jet for 72,000 Euro, I kindly declined. But they found someone at the end.

I understand that there are pilots desperate to get a job, but they are not doing any favour to anyone, them included.

[Above The Clouds]

I have heard Vista Jet are only paying around 85000 euros for Global Captains.

[Energetic Pilot]

What kind of roster comes along with these figures? :confused:
Must be a paradise market in UK regarding salaries... :{
Here: holiday charter A320 F/O pay is 60k gross. Plus per diems. So 85k for a Challenger F/O seems a lot on the continent!:ugh:


"Joe le Taxi
Nonsense - If you are getting significantly less than these figures, gross, excluding per diems, then yes, you are being ripped off.

Globally Challenged
I would say £60-70k gross for a rated RHS CL604/5 is reasonable (particularly for the UK market)
"

[Narrow Runway]

It could be that they are type rating individuals and bonding them on the BD700? The type course is about $50,000 alone.

Therefore, some guys may be making a gamble that they take the job, see out the bond and jump ship for better money ASAP.

I'm not condoning it, but that would be my guess.

[flydive1]

Narrow Runway,

the offer I wrote about was far a already type rated and with years of experience on type.

I also heard what Above the Clouds said, again for an already type rated pilot.
And 30 Euro perdiem, not even enough for breakfast!

[Narrow Runway]

Well, they must be desperate.

[flydive1]

The pilots? Yes, unfortunately some are.

[vjs]

We(the pilots[with tons of experience]) are desperate, of course. We have to pay our expenses, feed the family. Simply survive this horrible times.

And for the salary discussion: a CAPTAIN in Vista gets 86.000 € gross. New Malta contracts differ a bit. But from a friend on a Global, who was forced to sign a new maltese contract, I learned that at the end you get less then before on the Austrian/German/Swiss contracts. He left already :E (after flying the Global for 4 months). What comes around goes around, right Vista? ;)

Of course assuming one is paying all required taxes, unemployment, retirement and health insurances. Somepeople still try to do the offshore deal inside europe - a very dangerous gamble in my opinion.

[NBP]

VJS.... So you mean that you can't pay your expenses and feed your family with 86000 EUR? Tell that supermarket single mom that you can't pay your bills with 86000 EUR and see what she says. Some people should not be allowed to handle money it seems. Ever heard about reducing your "expenses"? Perhaps that is exactly what your employer is doing so he/she can still keep you employed? Funny how life suddenly can seem positive once you just change your attitude. Ever tried?

[Teldorserious]

I used to walk into the salary reviews with latest Pro Pilot mag in my hands. Means very little.

First off the pilots are probably jacking up their salaries 30% as has been found to be true in most of the population pumping their salaries up.

Secondly, with the prevalence of hiring 'cheap' it queers the other end of the scale, where 1000 hour pilots working for dirt bring the average way down.

These days all that seems to matter to employers is a type and 500 hours pic. You could roll in drunk, in a wheel chair, slurring your speech, drooling out of the left side of your mouth, they just want that type and PIC time.

[PPRuNeUser0215]

From Teldorserious

You could roll in drunk, in a wheel chair, slurring your speech, drooling out of the left side of your mouth, they just want that type and PIC time.
:):O:D
So funny...
If I may, I would also use what you say for the young ones with no hours but money filling their pockets (through mummy or the banks).
It then gives.

You could roll in drunk, in a wheel chair, slurring your speech, drooling out of the left side of your mouth, they just want that money of yours.

[Trim Stab]

I don´t know about other European countries...anybody from the UK or France step forward please...

In France, captains on light jets (C525 etc) get €2500-4000 per month gross. FOs lucky if they get paid at all - plenty flying for free..

[BeCareful]

It's good to see that European pilots are so rich so they can afford to subsidize poor bizjet owners and airlines by buying their type ratings, paying for landings and line training, and accepting a fraction of one trip's catering bill as a monthly salary.

Unfortunately, in the US, we aren't nearly as well off as European pilots to be able to afford to do all that. So yes, the numbers in the Pro Pilot survey are in the ball park. I know a few operators that pay better than what's in the survey, but most fall in that range.

[flydive1]

Bit of a dumb generalization there BeCareful:rolleyes:

[vjs]

@NBP

Your logic sounds like my management guys which earn propably the double :ok:

86000.-before tax and all deductions - and that's a lot.

I know that a single mom has to deal with less, she is most likely as well not away for 17 day+ in a row per month.
We could talk as well about qualification and experience, but it is useless to talk about that to a management guy type like you.

Your attitude seems to be perfect - call Nick(if it is not you :suspect:), he has a job for you :E

[His dudeness]

VJS.... So you mean that you can't pay your expenses and feed your family with 86000 EUR?

IF this is relevant to any salary discussion, then ALL salary getting persons should just get what it takes to feed the family, is that what you are saying ???

Whats your salary then NBP and what do you do for it ?

[His dudeness]

Bit of a dumb generalization there BeCareful

You think, flydive ? I think hes not to far from the truth here. I know you are an exception and I´m one too, but I guess we are just lucky...


BTW, you still have the R 3 ?

[flydive1]

Soooo it's you?
Have to be more careful of what I say now;)

Yes, still have it, rode it today.

Back to the thread

Well, yes, there are some bad salaries going around in Europe, especially in Austria and Germany, but I also heard some bad in US.
So I find a bit of a generalization to say that here is bad and over there is heaven.

We are lucky.
Maybe yes, but it is also up to us to refuse underpaid jobs, unfortunately there is always someone that accepts, dragging down everybody else.

[Trim Stab]

These days all that seems to matter to employers is a type and 500 hours pic.

I agree - that has been the unintended consequence of the JAR/EASA/FAA policy to make type-ratings expire after one year. Now all that counts is having a current type-rating - long term accumulated experience on different types counts for nothing. It is a stupid policy which has dragged the whole profession into the mire.

[galaxy flyer]

flydive1,

Let's just say, in the US a chief pilot would immediately show the door to a pilot with a TR and no experience, simply not done. In fact, "poaching" pilots by offering money and benefits have reappeared here as operators are bidding for experienced pilots. Inexperienced need not apply. I get around to a lot of departments in my current job, talk with chiefs and directors and get offers, so I'm not blowing smoke up your skirt.

GF

[noneya]

I see the same in the industry as GF!

We only hire guys with 9,000+ hours and time in type! We do not hire FO's only Captains, for safety... Our flying schedule is too heavy to be a one man cockpit...

And we pay well above Pro Pilot rates to keep good quality guys!

[flydive1]

All I can say is, I've never flown with a self funded(TR) full time pilot yet.
Not saying that they do not exist, just haven't met one yet.

Noneya, all nice what you say, but young pilots have to start somewhere.

[noneya]

I agree 100% that they have to start somewhere! But not nessesarily in the right seat of a G550/Global/737/320 with 500 hours. How about build some time in something smaller, build some PIC time, get some "been there done that" under your belt, then step up. That way you are actually an asset in the cockpit not just hanging on. I am not saying you have to have 10,000 hours, just more than wet ink on a piece of paper!

I hope that everyone that wants to be pilot, succeedes! But please don't ruin your own future by flying for peanuts, free, or pay to set in the seat!! If someone can afford to buy the jet, they can afford to pay you to fly it, otherwise they really couldn't afford it and shouldn't have one in the first place!! :=

Sorry if some don't agree, but deep down I know you proably know I am right!

I am off my soapbox! Good luck to all!
J

[BizJetJock]

Hours are meaningless; I know 500 hour guys who are quite capable in the RHS of any of the above types, and 10,000 hour guys that I wouldn't sit in the back if they're up front in either seat.
Attitude, knowledge and skill are what is needed; experience adds to that, but there is no benefit to spending 20 years practising being a cowboy.
Noneya, if you think having two 9k+ guys in the cockpit adds to safety I suggest you start your reading with the GIV at Houston that was on its way to pick up Bush Snr and carry on from there.

[noneya]

You made your own point. No two pilots are the same! I agree there are plenty of 10,000 guys I wouldn't sit next too!! I am lucky to have 7 other high time guys to fly with and it is effortless because of it!!!

[Teldorserious]

Galaxy it's easier to get a job when the other guys see you roll up in a jet, not to mention you get to hop around airports and just bump into other flight departments, relaxed, not needing a flying job, not giving a crap.

It's just psychology. Also I wouldn't discount the fact that you have probably been offered jobs to fly the plane that you are flying right now, as they can see they get a free type and currency out of the deal.

Always easier to get a job when you have a job, it's just psychology.

Converselly, I have been told to cut my resume in half as that 'intimidates' chief pilots, so maybe another factor is that you don't intimidate people. Maybe you are professional FO, you don't worry Chief pilots. Can't stress this enough. So many insecure peeps in corporate aviation, with so many hiring kids, old timers that are past it, ect. The guys that I know personally that have gone the farthest were fuel pumpers, flight instructors, guys with out degrees, that the boss knew couldn't get hired elsewhere.

As stupid as this sounds I might just cut my resume down so much that in the end it just says 'can't fly, won't take your job, sem-retarded, will sell out, will do what you want as long as I get a seat'.

[mutt]

Maybe you are professional FO LOL, I believe that you will find that GF is not a professional FO, but sometimes the flight department wants the best of the best, and he falls in that category :)


Mutt

[His dudeness]

So many insecure peeps in corporate aviation, with so many hiring kids, old timers that are past it, ect.

Maybe true, maybe just the usual drivel of a once to often turned down person...? As a 'chief pilot' of a very small flight department (the other guy and me) and the former chief pilot of a twice as big workforce I say this:

I won´t hire ANYONE who I think I won´t get along easily. I sometimes spent more time with my colleague than with my wife, if I´d sit next to an idiot (no matter how good an aviator he is) that time is felt twofold or triplefold. So yes, I don´t judge on experience alone.

Cutting down CVs/times? Friend of mine did that cause he had too much time and knowledge for an airline F/O job he wanted. Made 3500hrs go away and a CP position, then they allowed him in. Nowadays he captains a very big Boeing product for a well respected airline. The airline he started with is a 100% subsidary of a very big European airline with a huge HR department. No insecure corperate peeps there - apparently....or are there some too?

Another friend of mine did fly for a company and wanted some leave (2 weeks), brought in a replacement freelance pilot. Coming back he found his termination on his desk. What the guy did to convince the owner to make them quit the other pilot I never learnt, but felt some sort of satisfaction when the traitor crash landed the airplane somewhat later because he did not secure the fuel caps and didn´t handle the short traffic circuit ensueing right. Sometimes there is justice....

During my career I have seen so many things like that (I have been the target of such behaviour myself, was lucky that my employer beliefed me and not the crook that went on to tell lies of epic proportion bout me...), that this IS a concern when employing a person I don´t know.
Luckily I don´t need to recruit someone for the time being. Its always a gamble.

Bottom line: if you think a CP has to be a person that neglects facts, personal experience and experiences of others plus has to go for the most expensive guy he could find, then you probably have it the wrong way round.

BTW, my colleague was a CP briefly himself. He hated the position. I like it - sort of - so there is no issue.

[Teldorserious]

Dude - What can I say - You illustrate a reality where the deceptive and inexperienced rise to the top, where buddies get the job over skill sets.

I appreciate your honestly. Fortunately not all segments of aviation are hiring off the bottom.

[ksjc]

Teldor... The guys writing these posts and the guys you have been talking to about getting hired, apparently, are saying the same thing to you...forget the credentials, nobody wants work with an a-hole.

[galaxy flyer]

Well, ksjc, since you put it that way....

GF

[Teldorserious]

Hiring buddies over experience only exist in a world where the boxes in the nose do the flying.

Should by some miracle they decide they want pilots again, there will be a housecleaning in aviation like you wouldn't believe...and it starts by just putting everyone in the sim, iron gyros, and have them shoot a couple of approaches - no gps, no efis screens...I doubt 20% of the pilots out there would make it.

[BlueVolta]

But why would we have to go back to old gyros....
Technology has evolved and made aviation safer, its true that most younger pilot have no clues about an NDB approach but why should they as RNAV one's are more precise?

[galaxy flyer]

Teldo

Unless we are going back to "sacred six" instruments and fixed card ADFs, what's your point? Yes, I flew jet penetrations to NDB final in F-100, penetration speed was 300 knots, boards out, descent at around 3,000 fpm to a RMI final at 166 plus fuel, but why is that important to a pilot with all the latest?

BTW. the conversion from steam to glass wasn't the easiest, either.

GF

[Teldorserious]

Well my guess is that if we have enough crashes...such as crash landings on sunny days by 10,000 hour pilots, sooner or later the insurance companies, the passengers, will bitch enough to say 'enough'.

The point being is that we have gone way to long on enabling low experienced pilots to 'fly' a plane by pushing the right buttons and leaning on the boxes.

If no one cares, then it's the same old thing...when the boxes aren't there, idiots will continue to crash planes, under the watch of an apathetic FAA and chief pilots who sold out.

I'm tired of bitching about it. If no one cares, fine, lets all the planes crash, you are all too stupid to want to survive.

Now take your meds, put on your sleep apnea mask, take another happy pill...beats eating right and working out...right?

This is a generation of coddled and enabled.

Carry on...

[noneya]

Somebody needs a hug!

:hmm:

[mutt]

Is this yet another reincarnation of SSG? The writing appears similar !

Mutt

[Teldorserious]

Gosh Mutt, is that the 'tell'...morality? Is that what triggers your radar? The only guy on PPRUNE that thinks you should know how to fly a plane before you sit in the seat?

[Steak&Kidney_Pie]

Teldorserious,

QUOTE: "I'm tired of bitching about it. If no one cares, fine, lets all the planes crash, you are all too stupid to want to survive."

...."you are all too stupid"....coming quite obviously from an American who believes that the only pilots worthy of sitting on a flight deck, are those who can fly an NDB on a steam driven cockpit. :mad: :ugh: Get with the real world and grow up. Otherwise hand in your notice and "let all the planes crash".

Oh, and KSJC sums it up nicely.

An enraged SKP

[vjs]

A bit of topic, right?

Pilots tend generally to overestimate their skills - or did you ever met a guy saying "I am just an average pilot with average skills" ?

[Globalstream]

Plenty actually VJS. Anyone who isn't humble in this profession is incredibly stupid or incredibly ignorant, possibly both, considering the backgrounds of some of their fellow professionals.

[Higher for hire]

vjs,

did you ever met a guy saying "I am just an average pilot with average skills?Did you ever read a job advertisement requiring an average pilot with just average skills?

[Flyer_123]

Can someone share what is an average salary for cpt on EMB Legacy in Europe? Please advise gross or net...PM is ok too...thanks!