Given CASA a photo recently? No? Stump up $5500

[compressor stall]

At least that's the way I read it, every 9.5 years you have to give them a photo?

61.370 Provision of photograph

(1) The holder of a flight crew licence commits an offence if:

(a) the holder exercises the privileges of the licence after the end of 10 years beginning:

(i) when the licence was granted; or

(ii) if the holder holds more than one flight crew licence—when the holder's most recent licence was granted; and

(b) the holder has not, before the exercise of the privileges, given CASA a photograph of the holder:

(i) showing the holder's full face and his or her head and shoulders; and

(ii) taken not earlier than 6 months before the end of the period mentioned in paragraph (a).

Penalty: 50 penalty units.

(2) An offence against this regulation is an offence of strict liability.

[Creampuff]

$8,500 in fact.

A penalty unit was recently changed to $170. The fabled surplus and all that ....

[avconnection]

Would an ASIC photo not cover the requirement?

[compressor stall]

I don't know - does it?

I get my ASIC through Melbourne Airport - not CASA - and thought it was a DOTARS thing?

[Frank Arouet]

What about pilot's with a DL medical. I'm aware the original AVID had a photo, and I can understand this reasoning. Does this mean your DL medical is invalid if after 10 years it is without and updated AVID photo?

I remember one bloke who I didn't like much, but I agreed with him at the time that an AVID should equal an ASIC given the security checks.

My baby photo looks like I am now. Would this do?

When do Passport photo's expire, or are they yearly renewals including photo's.

[Hasselhof]

Most important to me, and it's happening more and more frequently by the day, is this an offence of strict liability?

[nitpicker330]

I was told an ASIC covers it.

In fact I was told if I didn't want an ASIC my Licence needed a photo.

( I still have a 1970's Green licence and haven't wanted or needed to "buy" one of these new fangled types )

[VH-XXX]

Don't you have an AVID Nitpicker? Thought for a licence to be valid it needed a photo regardless of type.

[The Green Goblin]

I'll send CASA a new photo in Movember, around day 30 :ok:

[compressor stall]

I was told an ASIC covers it.

By whom?

And yes, it's strict liability.

[thorn bird]

The answer? well maybe send them a Photograph, that's all, no return address, plane envelope, with a note "in compliance with reg whatever". Get someone to witness that you actually sent it, aww hell send them the wife and kids photo as well, perhaps your dog, cat, budgy, flood them with photo's.

[compressor stall]

I was having similar thoughts....

[nitpicker330]

If I didn't have an ASIC then yes I'd need a photo on my licence and therefore I'd need to get a new Licence.

This came straight from Licensing section around 5 years ago.

[nitpicker330]

Ok, just sniffed around CASA.

If you go to this document:--

http://www.casa.gov.au/wcmswr/_assets/main/manuals/regulate/fcl/010r0301.pdf

Look at section 3.1

‘Old’ Book Style
The ‘old’ book style licences issued before April 1992 can still be used if they are endorsed as ‘PERPETUAL’ by the CASA Central Office. Licences with an expiry date cannot be used.

[717tech]

So which form are we supposed to use to keep in line with this reg?

Within the same document (Flight Crew Licensing Procedures) I found two references which appeared to have the same name, but two different forms. Neither of which seem to be in existence anymore.

Flight Crew Photo ID/Student Pilot Licence Application Form 639 and Flight Crew Photo ID/Student Pilot Licence Checklist Form 899.

I found one of the forms using google, buti it appeared to be linked to an American flying school.

[Andy_RR]

Even if you have an ASIC, aren't you also supposed to have a valid AVID to commit aviation in Oz?

[LeadSled]

Folks,
Aren't our clear, concise "reformed" regulations a delight to the eye, and a pleasure to use. Such a wonderful outcome for the $200M/300M/?? (pick a number) spent so far. Great value for the money.
Who knows what is buried in the 500/500/900 ?? ( who knows how many pages "finally") pages of regulations, manuals of standards and advisory material just for a pilots license.

Sadly, this is a prime example of the "rule by law", where the law is whatever some bureaucrat with enforcement powers says it is --- and unless you are Dick Smith, you do not have the financial resources to argue.

On the specific point off: Will an ASIC pic. "comply" --- I don't think so (best guess) because it is required by a different piece of legislation, and holding an ASIC is not "mandatory".

Tootle pip!!

[garrya100]

An ASIC trumps an AVID, you need one or tother to commit aviation in OZ. Which one you need depends on which hairport you wish to fly into. A hairport with an RPT service requires an ASIC :8

I was informed that you must have a photo on the new licence, it's actually the same photo that's on my ASIC, only difference is the photo on my licence is so badly printed you can't identify anybody on it anyway. I guess the saving grace is my ARN is on both.... :ugh:

[LeadSled]

An ASIC trumps an AVID

garrya100,

It does??
What game are we playing??
Strict Liability Roulette??
Just what is the basis for that assertion??

Tootle pip!!

[garrya100]

Dear Leadsled, surely you've done your research,
From both DOTAR and CASA for your reference,

ASICs and AVIDs show that the holder has a current security check but only an ASIC can be used at security controlled airports. ASICs are normally valid for up to 2 years and AVIDs are normally valid for up to 5 years.

While an AVID and an ASIC are both evidence that background checks have been undertaken, the background checks for the AVID are not equivalent to the checks for the ASIC.

At a minimum, all pilots 18 or over must undergo the background checks for an AVID. Only those pilots who require access to a secure area of a security controlled airport will need to undergo the more robust background checks for an ASIC.

To streamline processes and remove any duplication, pilots who undergo the background checking for an ASIC do not have to undergo the background checking for an AVID.

If you plan to fly into a security controlled airport that has RPT services you need to have an ASIC.

Next.....:ok:

[Ultralights]

this is interesting
Plastic Card
Licences issued between April 1992 and March 2001 were in the form of a plastic card,
similar to a credit card. These show only the highest licence held by the pilot for each
aircraft category and remain a valid licence for use in Australia but are not suitable for
overseas use as they are not ICAO compliant.
Records of Flight Crew Qualifications (RFCQ) to accompany the plastic card licence are
no longer available and are replaced by the new book style licence.
Paper Dockets
A few licences, such as Student Pilot Licences, were issued by industry delegates and
Flying Schools as a paper docket.
‘Old’ Book Style
The ‘old’ book style licences issued before April 1992 can still be used if they are endorsed
as ‘PERPETUAL’ by the CASA Central Office. Licences with an expiry date cannot be
used.

funny thing is, my licence was issued in MAY 92, and apparently should be a plastic card..
yet it is an "old book" style marked 'Perpetual'.:sad:

[thorn bird]

Hey guys,
the answer is, get a Photo of you, put it in an envelope with nothing else, get someone to sign a stat dec that this is a photo of you..no names no pack drill..that they observed you post it to CAsA and they observed you mailing it.
Problem solved, a few thousand Photo's turn up in CAsA's mailbag let them sort out who they are of. You've complied!if there are a few thousand pilots left in OZ these days.

[Frank Arouet]

If you plan to fly into a security controlled airport that has RPT services you need to have an ASIC.

Only if you want to set foot outside the aircraft. I'm guessing that a refueller or friend with an ASIC can escort you off and back to the airside area like any passenger.

But what would I know.

No, I don't feel like testing the theory.

[717tech]

Never help an AVID, only an ASIC. Funnily enough, my CPL application was knocked back years ago as CASA had no record of me holding an ASIC (Mine was issued by another company). I had to provide a copy of my company issued ASIC so they could process my application... system works beautifully!

[Mail-man]

November would be roughly 9.5 years since the avid's were introduced. I suggest we all do Movember so CASA's data would show all Aussie pilots having dirty mo's. Will we have to fork out $30 for a license reprint?

[LeadSled]

garrya100,
Well blimey crikey, stone the crows, whoda' thunk it??
I am truly indebted to your erudite and in-depth knowledge of the subject.

All those years I sat on a DOTARS advisory body, and I need you to explain the system to me --- NOT.

Frank A's later post is quite interesting, he actually has it right, in contrast to your assertions. As Frank correctly points out, you can operated without an ASIC cards in a security controlled area (note, I did not say airport) with an escort.

Or, do you really think every pilot on an area that is security controlled has an Australian ASIC --- at an international airport ---- all the foreign crews??

I chose my words carefully --- as an Australian pilot you can fly with an AVID or an ASIC card, but you can fly without an ASIC card, and there are plenty of places --- including areas of some airports outside the security controlled areas, where you can operate without an ASIC card. Not all airport operators declare the whole airport, where a security plan is required, as a security controlled area.

You need to read, inwardly digest and develop an understanding of all the rules, before you start making bland assertions.

Now, back to the thread. So far as a number of people have been able to determine, the quoted section of CASR 61 seems to stand alone.
I was informed that -----By whom, did you get it in writing, with details of the head of power, what makes you think it was somebody who actually knew the answer??

I haven't yet read the bit in Part 61 that says we all have to get new licenses with a pic. on them ---- as Ms Pauline Hanson would say --- please explain.

I certainly have my old book license with a pic. on the back page, I think I looked quite hansom about 40 years ago.

And I would welcome a return to a credit card license,(like my FAA or NZ one) as we had for many years, the Toller era CASA "policy" that such a license was not "ICAO Compliant", and we had to have a bleeding great book, which just happened to be the size of a UK license,( I suppose I could say that my UK and Australian licenses look "matched" in a pocket in my flight bag) was a load of self-serving rubbish.

Tootle pip!!

PS: Anybody want to claim the US or NZ licenses are not ICAO compliant --- please inform ICAO, I am certain they will be glad of your help, and will immediately ground all US and NZ licensed pilots from international operations, until such time as "compliant" licenses are produced.

[garrya100]

Hi Leadsled

Thanks for your verbal explosion, but they're not my words or interpretation, that's directly off the website, if you don't agree with what it says ask them to change the website.

As for the other CLARC informed me they would not accept a new licence application without a photo.

[Dexta]

you can operated without an ASIC cards in a security controlled area (note, I did not say airport) with an escort.
So... whats the going price for an escort these days?:O

[garrya100]

Just to throw the cat in..

61.340 Production of licence documents, medical certificates and identification

(1) CASA may direct the holder of a flight crew licence to produce any or all of the following documents for inspection by CASA:

(a) the holder’s licence document;

(b) unless the holder also holds a medical exemption for the exercise of the privileges of the licence—the holder’s medical certificate or recreational aviation medical practitioner’s certificate;

(c) if the holder’s licence document was issued more than 10 years before the direction is given—a document that:

(i) includes a photograph of the holder showing the holder’s full face and his or her head and shoulders; and

(ii) was issued within the previous 10 years by the government, or a government authority, of any of the following:

(A) the Commonwealth or a State or Territory;

(B) a foreign country, or a state or province (however described) of a foreign country; and

(iii) has not expired or been cancelled.


As your drivers licence or ASIC/AVID meets these requirements does that not cover you if you had an older perpetual licence?

BTW the old regs stated they were moving everybody to the new photo licence in 2006, guess that didn't happen!

[LeadSled]

garrya100,
It's your interpretation of what's on web sites --- and your resultant assertions, not the same thing as as other possible interpretations, or the law.

old regulations -----to the new photo licence in 2006, guess that didn't happen!

"regulations" or just a statement of intent, one of the uncountable things that have never happened. I certainly don't know what "old" regulation, to which you refer, had a regulatory timetable or deadline for such a move.

Tootle pip!!

[garrya100]

Ahh no actually, I haven't tried to interperate anything, simply copied directly off the website, go have a look if you don't believe me.

And from the old/current FCL Procedures manual

Between 1 July and 31 December 2004 – the following individuals need to apply for a
new photographic flight crew licence:
• Holders of Air Transport Pilot Licences and Flight Engineer Licences who hold an
Aviation Security Identity Card (ASIC) that was issued after April 2004.
Between 1 January and 31 May 2005 – the following individuals will be asked to undergo
proof of identity and background security and apply for a new Photographic Flight Crew
Licence:
• Holders of Air Transport Pilot Licences and Flight Engineer Licences who do NOT hold
an Aviation Security Identity Card (ASIC) that was issued after April 2004.
• Holders of Commercial Pilot Licences.
Between 1 June 2005 and 31 May 2006 – the following individuals will be asked to
undergo proof of identity and background security and apply for a new photographic flight
crew licence:
• Holders of Private Pilot Licences and Student Pilot Licences who have not already
undergone proof of identity and background security checks.
The background security checks and the issue of a Photographic Flight Crew Licence will
be carried out as a single procedure at the same time as a licence application is processed
or on application by existing licence holders.

[LeadSled]

garrya100,
Quite simply, I stand by what I have posted, I am well aware of all the sites you have so helpfully posted, none of them are the primary regulations.

Just somebody's interpretation as advisory information, and as you may or may not know, such a level of advisory information may be a partial defence, if you wind up in trouble about security plans and you status.

The most common issue is disputes over whether a person holding an ASIC is in a security controlled area without a justifiable reason for being in the area.

I will say it one more time: For an Australian license holder, you have to have an AVID and/or an ASIC, but you do not need an ASIC, except in the security controlled areas of an airport/airfield with a security program.

Separate provisions are made for non-Australian license holders and crews, and there is the provision mentioned by Frank A. I have used that latter provision several times, when I have been dropped off at YMML to catch a flight home. The owner/pilot dropping me off has never had a ASIC.

Tootle pip!!

[djpil]

I am currently in the USA and just got my pilot certificate revalidated per their new security reqts since 9/11. A very pleasant experience dealing with the FAA.
This thread leaves me thinking that I could happily stay in the USA (well, apart from the floods here in Colorado so no flying for me this week).

[garrya100]

Dear LeadSled

I'm glad that you're aware of the sites I have been quoting. Could you then refrain from personally attacking people, and attack the argument instead.

It would be far more useful to people if you could explain where you are getting you're information from and why the website/document/etc is incorrect.

The only thing I have quoted is from the website, and have made no assertions or interpretations. I would be pleased if you could direct me to the legislation rather than going on a rant. I'm happy to be proven wrong in the effort to gain more knowledge.

On a personal note I thought of you as a person of high standards who was worthy of listening too. After your personal attack on me I'm no longer sure.

If you wish to go your hardest against me please go ahead, I'll shall not be returning to this thread.

[thorn bird]

Oh gawd,
I read the two and fro in this thread, and others, posts from the informed and the uninformed, from those versed on the "LEGAL"side and those from the "INTERPRETATION" side and I start to wonder.

"SECURITY"????
"OH&S"
"REGULARITY REFORM" etc etc.

All these little Niches that have grown into "INDUSTRIES" like parasites, riding on the back of the industry or industries they have attached to.
They forment fear to elucidate emotional responses which they use to lobby for greater powers that elicite lots of "PROFIT" generally where the original "PURPOSE" is perverted into a venal grab for cash.
What I sometimes wonder just who are the shareholders of these "INDUSTRIES".hell, when Sydney Airport can generate Eight BILLION in revenue without paying a cent of tax and its primary shareholder is registered in the Bahamas one has to wonder if the Australian public are being played for suckers. Then my old Dad always said "Never give a sucker an even Break"

[Creampuff]

[O]ne has to wonder if the Australian public are being played for suckers.You mean you’re still wondering?

That would explain a lot. :(

[YPJT]

To put the ASIC requirement a little more simply. In order to have unescorted access at a security controlled airport, a person must display a valid ASIC. If you only have an AVID, the only option available to you to get to or from your aircraft would be to have a Visitor Identification Card (VIC) and be escorted by an ASIC holder.

The main thing to remember is that the ASIC is NOT an authority to be in the secure area of a security controlled airport. The granting of that authority rests with the airport operator. Suffice to say in most circumstances, airport staff wouldn't generally stop you accessing the required airside areas.

I will say it one more time: For an Australian license holder, you have to have an AVID and/or an ASIC, but you do not need an ASIC, except in the security controlled areas of an airport/airfield with a security program.

In my experience, there are very few, if any, security controlled airports around that have areas within the airside boundary where ASICS are not required. The obvious ones being AF, BK, PF and JT which are exempted under the regs due to no RPT services being conducted to or from those airports.

[dubbleyew eight]

Suffice to say in most circumstances, no airport staff wouldn't generally stop you accessing the required airside areas.

what for you no speaka da english?

[YPJT]

Fair cop guv. Getting late and doing this on an IPad. No excuse I know.