Typhoon vs..... Hercules?

[Mascot PPL]

Plain old tax payer here would just like to thank the aircrew in the Typhoon and the Herc over the Northumberland coastline (near Seahouses) this afternoon.
Great to see my tax dollars/pounds being spent in what looked like great fun and great show for all who stopped to watch.

Initially I thought, this will all be over pretty fast but the PIC in the Herc was throwing it around at low level like a Turcano - hope the crewmaster was well strapped in and had strong sealegs. BAe's finest was using a lot of thrust and some pretty wide turns to try to get on the Herc's tail. Put a couple of AIM9's on the Herc and I think he'd have had a fighting chance :)

Anyway - great show - thanks guys/girls.

Mac

[just another jocky]

Was a pax in a Herc back in the 80's in a 1 vs 2 x F4 over Northern Scotland. Walking down the steps into the cargo hold whilst pulling 2.?G was quite sporty. :)

Took a loooooong time for the F4's to claim anything.

Surprised if the Tiffie didn't get relatively quick shots in but I guess it depends what weapons they were using.

[Flap62]

There is often a load of old tosh spoken about this and many heavy crews would like to say "they held their own"

Having spent some seriously fun time playing the Herc game in a non-radar jet it is easy to see why they might think this. The truth is that they would have soaked up radar shots from way out if facing anything so equipped and even against anything only carrying heaters they would have been toast if we'd really wanted to and been trying.

[Just This Once...]

My, you are looking big today.

[Canadian Break]

Hey, I pay my taxes too - can you move the fight south about 10 miles- say 2 miles inland from Craster - pretty please. CB

[Lima Juliet]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/35/C-130_60528_MiG.JPG

MiG17 versus a C130 in 1958...

...it didn't work out very well for the 17 on board the Herc :(

http://www.nsa.gov/public_info/_files/c130_shootdown/shoot_down_60528.pdf

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Big a/c vs 2 fighters is a good training exercise for newbie fighter pilots. I once had the chance to view it from inside a Nimrod (Dairy Cream Sponge in hand). For the first couple of minutes, whilst the fighters weren't that co-ordinated, the combination of 13 guys looking out and some well-judged reversals kept the fighters off. The final exchange went something like:
"One level, 10 o'clock"
"One high, 5 o'clock. What do we do now Captain?"
"Captain to crew- now we die"

My favourite trick for heavies & helos involved coming in from the vertical. As long as you judged the energy right for pull ups and avoided tent-pegging in dives, it worked nicely.

[Lima Juliet]

Also, 1 Jun 82, our troubled mind-in-turmoil favourite SHAR pilot skillfully despatched a C130:

No.801 Squadron CAP (Lt. N. Ward and Lt. S. Thomas) destroy Argentine C-130 Hercules 93 km north of Pebble Island. Wards first AIM-l9 Sidewinder he fired fell short of the C-130, but the second started a fire between the port engines,* Ward then fired 240 rounds of 30mm, which broke the aircraft's wing of sending it crashing into the sea killing the 7* crew members. This particular C-130 is believed* to have been trying to repeat a bombing attempt made by another C-130 the previous day, when an Argentine C-130 made a bombing attack on a British tanker well north of the total exclusion zone. One bomb struck the ship, but bounced off to no effect.

[Biggus]

To the best of my knowledge, the UK Herc vs FJ training for ordinary Sqn crews (as opposed to SF - don't know what they did, and if I did I wouldn't say here) started off post 82, for crews about to deploy to the Falklands for 4 months.

The concept was that the Herc would only be a target of opportunity, and if you could deny the fighter(s) a kill on the first or second pass, then their fuel state and higher priority mission would make then break off the engagement and you lived to fight another day.

The threat at the time was a very poor radar guided missile, especially against a target at low level, and IR missiles that weren't all aspect.

Very good fun at the time, but things have moved on....




...I should add that almost all the RAF fighter (F-4) crews I met at that time were very keen to pass on any help or tips that might help the Herc crew to survive - no doubt some naive concept that we were all on the same side. As I said earlier, things.....

[Mascot PPL]

Didn't know this was such a "normal" exercise. I've seen lots of FJ on FJ action up here, over the North Sea at altitude then down to low level as"the enemy" heads for Otterburn. But this was the first time I'd seen FJ vs Herc.

Didn't see the lead in but from when I watched it the Herc was staying low and out turning the Typhoon who was going (obviously) a lot faster and taking wide vertical turns to try to get in the right position. From the range etc I'd guess this was for heat seeking lock on and not guns.

As I say great to watch and brought a smile to my face.

[Ken Scott]

As Biggus says it was only intended to deny the fighter a quick kill in the hope that he would look elsewhere for his fun, I don't believe that any C130 pilot would seriously claim to be able to do anymore than that - bar room banter to wind-up the fighter jocks aside. A sophisticated fighter like Typhoon really ought to be able to make mincemeat of a heavy in a matter of seconds otherwise it wouldn't justify its price tag.

That said, having done a bit of fighter affil 'down south', the success of the attackers was rather variable, from limited (only one 'hit' is all it takes though....) to instant wipeout with no warning, a testimony to the skill of the individuals I felt at the time. They were professional fighter pilots though whereas we were truckies so the outcome should have been in no doubt.

Jolly fine sport though!

[ExAscoteer]

Also, 1 Jun 82, our troubled mind-in-turmoil favourite SHAR pilot skillfully despatched a C130:

Which is totally different to what the WAFU claimed in his book; that in itself also being totally different to what he claimed in his Combat Report.

Go figure....

[Easy Street]

Part of the difficulty for the fighter pilot in despatching something slow like a Herc is that he doesn't want to get slow while he is potentially at risk himself. It would be straightforward enough for a Typhoon to slow down to 200kts and sit in behind taking leisurely gun shots, but he would be toast if another fighter turned up. The looping and turning you saw was doubtless resulting from the pilot's desire to keep some speed on, meaning that he had to keep re-setting for shots.

[Marcantilan]

totally different to what he claimed in his Combat Report

What he claimed in his Combat Report????

Regards!

[ExAscoteer]

Indeed, in rounds fired and where they were aimed.

[Mascot PPL]

Easy Street

Thanks for that - matches exactly what I was watching. The Typhoon was keeping up a lot of kinetic energy and staying low as little as possible. The Herc looked like he was trying to anticipate the Typhoon's wider turns and using his higher rate of turn to give as poor an angle as possible to the FJ as he came out of the turn.

[ksimboy]

Lets not forget also, from he C130s end, the fight is being directed ( mostly) by the hairy little Baldrick up in the cupola. FI work up was max of 3 days training against the F4s at Wattisham.

[Biggus]

3 days! You were lucky!!

[BEagle]

Trying to turn with a C-130 would be a mug's game. Although if you're stuck under a low cloudbase, you might be forced to have to try.

But with a decent cloudbase, the 'great leonopteryx' last-shadow technique should work....

Minimise visual aspect and swoop down suddenly from a great height...:E

[Marcantilan]

Indeed, in rounds fired and where they were aimed.

So no 240 rounds aimed at the rear cargo door (all hits, of course)?

Regards,

[Bob Viking]

The Herc was using his higher rate of turn?! Higher than a Typhoon?!
Holy sh1t. Let's stick some ASRAAMs on it quick and change it's primary role.
Sorry, I was being facetious. Smaller turn radius I can just about buy (with the Herc being slow and the Typhoon being fast) but higher rate of turn I will not jump on board with.
Sorry for being a Poindexter.
BV:8

[SASless]

A sophisticated fighter like Typhoon really ought to be able to make mincemeat of a heavy in a matter of seconds otherwise it wouldn't justify its price tag.


Does that statement apply pre-gun or post-gun for the Typhoon?

[Mascot PPL]

When I say higher rate of turn I was talking about what I saw not what the two planes are capable of. The typhoon was travelling at speed and using a lot of sky. Big wide vertical turns. The Hercules was staying low and slow with tight turns and some up and down - pretty much a bunt on at least one occasion and close to a wing over on another. Turning speed of the Hercules looked a lot faster than that being taken by the FJ jockey. Wondered why he wasn't low and slow on the Hercs tail but makes sense after easy street's post.

[ukcds]

Ask any FJ pilot that's had a crack at the luxury classic 1960's technology albere
and i think they'd all agree....it's not as easy as it looks:ok:

[Ken Scott]

Ask any FJ pilot that's had a crack at the luxury classic 1960's technology albere
and i think they'd all agree....it's not as easy as it looks

As with most air combat most victims never knew what hit them & never even see their assailant. If the C130 saw the incoming fighter before it could attack they might have a slim chance of holding it off for just long enough for reinforcements to arrive or the fighter to run out of fuel/ get bored etc.

But a sneaky attack from a blind spot (lots of those on a C130)? Those fighter pilots are a devious bunch & are most unlikely to play fair in a gentlemanly & dare I say it British fashion (most unlikely if they're the enemy) in which case it's likely to be curtains for the plucky Brits in their trusty Albert (Klassic or non-cupola J Super Hercules).

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

most unlikely to play fair

amend to "never".

We are the most devious, unprincipled bastards you know. Just think yourself lucky we're on your side.

[orca]

I remember talking to a Lynx crew prior to some affil. Their brief (and honest belief) was that we would use the gun vice anything more capable due to cost!

They were quite taken aback when I told them that if I was offered the single air-to-air kill that was likely to occur in my lifetime I would fire everything I had into the beggars - helo or not!

What could possibly be worse than trying to be artistic with a cannon when someone did the job properly with a Fox 3...maybe even your own wingy? That would be roll and pull territory!

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Indeed; whatever it takes......

Ramming Speed!!

Animal House - YouTube

[chickenlover]

I've been lucky enough to practice a fair bit of affil in the Herc over the years. been up against F-14,15,16, Harrier, F3,4,5 Mirage and a few others. Biggest problem on the herc force was a lack of expertise and knowledge of FJ techniques. If you were lucky, you got face to face briefings from the FJ guys and debriefed afterwards. If you were really lucky you got one of them to fly with you. I learnt a load from a Harrier bloke stood behind during a 3 Vs 1 with Harriers. He couldn't stop laughing from the amount of shouting going on. Comms was key to success. It was a real skill for 5 blokes to co-ordinate their commentary and pass the fighter around the windows to the next guy so that the captain could manoeuvre effectively. The poor FE had to stay heads in and fly the throttles to avoid over exuberant pilots making gits of themselves. I've seen very different levels of success achieved, dependant on crew co-ord and kit fitted. Sick bags full of chaff were bizarrely effective at the time. The 'Cheesey' bike pump chaff dispenser was also surprisingly effective. Bottom line- a well trained crew in a herc with the kit stood a chance.
Most impressive fighter ? F-15 from Bitburg did stuff I didn't realise conventional fighters could do. Shot us to ****. but we had been to the oktoberfest the night before:yuk:
Having flown with both RAF and USAF hercs, interestingly each force has (had) different ideas and techniques. Prob30 not polite to go into detail but I think USAF have had more experience and back then , I think we would have been wise to adopt some of their techniques.
Darned good fun though as I never got to do it in anger unless you count a patriot battery.....
I believe we have some DFC winners who did get to put their training to the test though:D

[Evalu8ter]

'That shut them up'

Yes, as did spending a whole afternoon getting past a pair of F3s with an AWACS providing picture....

Or the F3 QWI crew that put an AMRAAM into a truck 'errrr, we'll check the tapes on that one.....'

The F3 crew in MPA that were sent out of Happy Hour for getting shot down by the Chinook 4 times in one afternoon (all witnessed by Mt Kent) and then OC1435 spending 90 minutes trying to find OC 78 in a Sea King, with a yellow blade, on the Stanley Road...

And getting a 5-6 sec sim M134 burst on a Typhoon (from about 300m) who allowed arrogance to get in the way of tactics as he tried to get a guns kill on my wingman...or the pair that spent an hour trying to find me in the Coldstream Valley...

Or the Jag, well, enough said really....

Yes, I've 'lost' as many times as I've 'won', but often a stalemate counts as a win. Best thing is that it's always fun, and pretty much every FJ mate I've put on the jumpseat has loved the experience.

[smujsmith]

I can only speak as a mere GE, hanging out of a para door, desperate to spot you pointy bugg@rs coming at us. But, I think we always made the effort to avoid you boys getting a result. I've been involved in loads of "fighter affil" in my time and have always enjoyed the sheer thrill of the actual flying at low level. I can say that we nearly always ended up getting stoofed and therefore having to drink copiously to overcome our gloom at losing. But I have to say I always admired the professionalism and tenacity of the drivers up front who always worked hard to put up a "good show". At the end of the day the brief was usually to try and avoid getting hit until the fast jet had to go home for fuel, easier said than done, and, as already stated the 2 v 1 where 1 keeps him turning whilst 2 comes down from above was always curtains. Respect to all FJ Jocks, and also admiration for the Herk pilots who worked their b@lls off to try and get away with it.

Smudge

[orca]

I shot a car once. It was at night and I was attempting to get some shots into the TLT helos that were coming down a sea loch in Scotland. This was made slightly harder by being stuck above Safety Altitude...but there was a full moon and the loch was glistening...and if you don't tell that I sneaked below then I won't.

Anyway, the radar found them (with very little assistance from me) and one by one they turned up different valleys and b#ggered off. Good drills. Apart from the tail end one. He kept coming. Put the radar into STT,called a Fox One, centred up the steering and there in my HUD - being tracked perfectly by the target cross - was a bl##dy set of car's headlights following the coast road.

Hero to zero in approximately 15 seconds.

[ExAscoteer]

There we were on 1312 fighting the mighty F4.

I won't mention the string of paper coffee cups released from the starboard para door.

Nor the roar of the F4 as he hit maximum alpha and shot over the top of us.

OC 1435 was pissed, OC 1312 deflected the ****e.

Apparently a string of coffee cups released from Albert looks just like tracer.

Who knew..........:D

[Evalu8ter]

Orca, :ok:
Happy days on TLT, leading up to 18 RW as part of a 60-70 ship package. I fear we'll never see those days again....

Paper cups as tracer? Priceless. We did try to get some blank M134 ammo once but thought it might be construed as being a bit OTT......