Sportcruiser Purchase

[Steevo25]

Hi All, I am hoping you can give me some good advice here.

I passed my PPL last year after years of wanting to do it. Since that time I have been flying the schools C152s and recently converted across to the PA28 Warrior II just so I could experience a low wing aircraft. Since passing my PPL I have accumulated around 19 hours PIC so the total number of hours now in my logbook is 71 hours. Last weekend, I was lucky enough to be taken up in a Sportcruiser for about half an hour and I truly loved it (many thanks to Brian for letting me have a go).

Since I did my PPL I have wondered what I was going to do with it as it really is just a hobby that I do enjoy and have become hooked. I do not intend getting any further qualifications and my goal is just to fly for fun and sightseeing within the UK only in virtually perfect VFR flying conditions.

I have, for quite a while, considered a Sportcruiser. I have seen them for around £50k-£65k that are only 3 years old or so with very low hours (200-300). That is within my budget and am prepared to spend that amount of money knowing that in the years to come I will lose quite a bit of it if I ever sell it.

I have never owned any type of aircraft before and this will just be used for my wife and myself to do sightseeing trips and travel to various places. I anticipate doing around 100 hours per year. I do realise that renting an aircraft or buying a share would probably be cheaper in the long run but I just feel I want something I can call my own and have the flexibility of having my own aircraft so my heart is now set on a Sportcruiser, but I do have many questions.

First of all, do you think this would be the right aircraft for me. It would be just for my wife (under 50kg) and myself (85kg and 47 years old). The initial cost doesn't worry me too much but the on-going costs do worry me to some extent. I have listed some of my questions below.

1) Is this a reasonable price (£50k-£65k) for a low hour Sportcruiser?
2) What is their reliability like?
3) What would you expect to pay for insurance based on my low hours age etc?
4) What realistic on-going costs should I expect for this aircraft?
5) Are spare parts easy to get for this and at realistic prices?
6) Is it ok to store this aircraft outside?
7) Are there any gotchas I should look out for?

Just a little more information, I used to be heavily into car mechanics and restored classic cars for years so I know my way around engines etc. and an not scared of getting my hands dirty. Not sure if this helps maintaining one.

I am not too worried about storage costs as I will, without a doubt, store it at the flying school where I learnt to fly as it is close to my home and I have good friends down there. The only problem there is that there is a very long waiting list for hangerage so it will almost certainly have to be stored on their grounds outside.

Obviously I would get any potential purchase inspected first by a fully qualified engineer. But how much should I expect to pay for this inspection?

Sorry there are so many questions but I want to go into this with my eyes wide open before I even go and look at one. Any advice or experiences would be gladly accepted.

[GCRSR]

Hi

I have recently Nov 11, bought a Sportcruiser to use very much as you describe.

I am delighted with it as an aircraft, having previously flown Cessnas, Pipers as well as Taylorcraft and Stampe.

Its a great little touring aircraft (subject to baggage space) and will go into most small strips with ease.

I have a factory built aircraft with BRS, glass cockpit and autopilot and the interior is stunning compared to a elderly school plane.

In terms of your specific questions.

1) Is this a reasonable price (£50k-£65k) for a low hour Sportcruiser?
That seems to be the market price for those built from kits more for factory built
2) What is their reliability like?
No problems so far
3) What would you expect to pay for insurance based on my low hours age etc?
I am paying c£1500
4) What realistic on-going costs should I expect for this aircraft?
My annual was c£1900
5) Are spare parts easy to get for this and at realistic prices?
Yes and there is an active user group who can help

6) Is it ok to store this aircraft outside?
No
7) Are there any gotchas I should look out for?

Not that I have found so far

[gasax]

I own a Zodiac 601xl - the original version of the design in many ways. CZAW 'improved' the xl design into one of their own - the Sportcruiser. Czech Sport subsequently acquired the company - by means which have entertained many people who were not directly involved.

Leaving an aircraft like this outside is less than ideal - the wing loading is low - so it tends to move around a lot and control and control surface damage is a real possibility.

Sportcruisers have a number of issues with the nosegear at the moment - I presume Czech Sport will eventually come up with a fix. The xl can be built from alloy stock materials, the Sportcruiser has many more 'manufactured' parts and so you would rely upon factory support.

In the past there have been exhaust cracking issues - which should have been adressed by now.

The big issue is whether you buy a kit or factory built. The kit built gives you a lot more flexibility in terms of repair / modification.

In essence the Sportcruiser looks good, has performance which is pretty similar to many aircraft in the same case - which is exceeded by a number and not equalled by others. For what it is, I think it is over-priced - but then I have a very similar aircraft which is worth half the cost of a Sportcruiser!

The final point (I'm sure Rod1 will be along shortly) - the wing loading is low as I've said and I certainly often find myself slowing down to save me and the airframe.

Rather than deciding on a single design I would suggest you look at a variety of this class of aircraft - they are all compromises, but some may well fit you better than others.

[sharpend]

Having owned a share in a Cirrus for some time, I thought I would branch out and buy my own aeroplane outright. For several reasons I looked at new; Sportcruiser, Breezer, Tecnam and Aquila. All new were in excess of £100K, though 30% less for a pre-owned.

The advantages of this sort of aircraft, operating on a permit are mainly cost. Certainly they are more economical to run.

However, there are many disadvantages of these aeroplanes. Most are not permitted to fly at night, IMC or turn upside down for example.

Have you considered something like a Beagle Pup? They are a joy to fly and not too expensive to run. Try one and see.

I rejected a modern 'plastic microlite' and bought a Scottish Aviation Bulldog instead, the Pup's big brother. OK, it is not cheap to run, but is fully aerobatic, fully IMC and night capable, easy to fly and is a total British thoroughbred!

[ak7274]

For that kind of money a decent RV could be purchased. In my opinion, no contest. Robust, 140+ kt cruise, good weight carrying ability and excellent range. Due to fuel costs, not a bimbler, but a much more efficient aircraft for the same price.

[C42]

Where did you learn how to fly Stevo? There is a sports cruiser at Damyns hall (upminster) that belongs to one of the instructors, and two of the pilots from Damyns live in wickford, and I'm on Canvey.

Dave

[A and C]

Check the landing gear for cracks, the nose gear highlights in the reports but the main legs are also subject to cracks.

Check the inboard main spar caps for loose rivets, normally the lower spar caps.

Don't touch an aircraft that has been used for any form of training.

[carlmeek]

I just bought a tecnam sierra a couple of weeks ago. Sport cruiser was on my short list... It's a great aircraft, but tecnam has a couple of advantages. There Is a sport cruiser on the field I fly from, and it is stunning.

Anyway...

1. Seems a reasonable price, that's what I paid.
2. Reliability is about the Rotax more than the airframe really. Pretty well proven now.
3. I Pay 1600
4. If its a good aircraft, and on a permit, very little... Depending if you do maint yourself or not (oil change etc). If nothing major goes wrong, which is normal, running costs are in low hundreds.
5. I haven't heard if any spares problems.
6. Mixed views here.... But I would park one outside as long as the canopy is covered and all controls are locked so they can't flap. I agree it's not ideal, but it wouldn't stop me buying one if you have no choice.
7. Gotchas:
A. It's a castoring nose wheel and its poor on sloppy mud.
B. in a crosswind (A) applies in double measures
C. Don't leave canopy open in sunshine or it magnifies the sun and smoke comes out of the dash!
D. Fragile nosewheel apparently, but fine if you fly it normally.... Probably not so great if used for training.

It's a 100kt aircraft (ish) on a fixed pitch prop and 110kts on a woodcomp VP. Obviously it will go faster but that is a normal 75% cruise at 18 litres per hour.

The above gives everything I know about the type. I chose the tecnam because its 130kts at 18 litres and a steerable nosewheel.... But as I said, I would happily have had a sport cruiser. There's an LAA tecnam versus sport cruiser article out there somewhere that gives a bit more insight.

[Steevo25]

What a small world. I also live in Wickford. I learnt to fly at Stapleford.

Thank you all so much for your replies. It is really strengthening my decision to get one. It seems my only downside is having to keep it outside.

[A and C]

If you decide to keep the aircraft outside it is essential that it is tied down very well being so light even fairly light winds will pick the aircraft up, I have seen one Sportcruiser that has been on its back and it I'd not a pretty picture with the fin spar pushed out of the bottom of the fuselage.

[Steevo25]

Until this thread, I had not heard of the Tecnam. I cannot seem to find out much information about them. I found their website but it doesn't seem to say much about the Sierra and I can only find one for sale that doesn't have pictures or much detail and doesn't even mention a price.

[tecman]

Like Carl I also decided on a Tecnam P2002JF having looked closely at the Sportcruiser and also considered an RV6A option that was available at the time. You should look a bit more at the Tecnam option, since they are widely sold around the world, with a good user base for comment. The Sportcruiser is a slightly sexier looking machine than the Tecnam, but my view is that the Tecnam is more robust, especially around the canopy and nosewheel. Both are nice to fly, but I prefer the Tecam. A local flying school here in WA has had 3 new nosewheels on their Cruiser but I understand that they attribute most of the damage to rough GA pilots, rather than ab initio rec pilots trained on the Cruiser.

There was a Sportcruiser left outside at my home airfield and it was a sad looking little aircraft after only 1 season, despite having a canopy and fuselage cover. Personally, I wouldn't consider leaving any LSA, even the all-metal ones, in the open. I won't comment on the maintenance figures since the UK costs are quite different to the Australian ones. Some of the figures quoted do seem high, though, relative to what I pay here for the P2002.

Despite having decided (somewhat grudgingly) against the RV for my own circumstances, it would indeed be worth looking at that option. However, I mean no disrespect in saying that if you're still relatively inexperienced, an RV might not be a wise choice unless you can arrange a bit of mentoring. They are pretty hot little aircraft, which of course is why we love them. And, of course, they are aerobatic, in a sedate sort of way. While you won't get that in any of the LSAs, at least the P2002JF is a certified version with good instrumentation options and, nowadays, NVFR approval.

[letpmar]

Just one correction on one of the comments made, as an owner of a Sportcruiser with over 300 hours flying it I can assure you it handles a cross wind fine.

[Rod1]

I have lost the plot a bit on CZAW, its various iterations, its deal with Piper and its multiple UK distributors. What is the current situation re the factory and UK dealer?

What happens to the Piper aircraft when the EASA permit runes out?

Rod1

[A and C]

There is no current UK dealer for the Sportcruiser, from what I can understand the only Piper involvement was in name & business ties, I don't think that Piper had any involvement in the EASA certification issues.

I am given to understand that Piper dropped their involvement with the aircraft due to the way the rights to the aircraft was distributed within the Czech companies.

If anyone knows any better I am happy to be guided by them on this issue.

[patowalker]

Aerosport Aviation | SportCruiser LSA | New Zealand | Asia | Australia (http://www.aerosport.co.nz/index.php)

News - Czech Sport Aircraft Issues Clarification Statement Concerning Chinese Activities & Distributor Network in Australia & New Zealand | Czechsportaircraft.com (http://www.czechsportaircraft.com/novinka/czech-sport-aircraft-issues-clarification-statement-concerning-chinese-activities-distributor-network-in-australia-new-zealand)

[Rod1]

I may have misremembered but I think the Pipersport was sold in the UK with an EASA permit which could not be renewed. The CAA warned that it was not sure what would happen if the permit ran out and the factory had not gained its “ELA1” manufacturing approval. Some of the factory built SC must in fact be Pipersport aircraft.

Rod1

[gasax]

Having done some business with CZAW and being happy with my dealings with Chip Erwin I watched th Czech Sport takeover with some chagrin.

To see Czech Sport being 'ripped off' in China is a richly ironic experience. To those who use the sword etc ec.

To Steevo - do not buy any aircraft if you have simply seen something you like the look of. Aircraft embody far too many compromises for that sort of approach to work. Your comments to date simply illustrate you have not looked at what else is available or what the issues are.

Good to ask the questions - but the answers needs careful thought. The 'usual' routeis to buy into a syndicate running a shared aircraft, gained the appreciable amount of knowledge and understanding - which is really necessary to make an informed decision, and then make a purchase.

The obvious analogy is to think you really need a Lotus Elise - 'cos you like the looks of it - when unfortunately what you really need is a secondhand Zafira. Sad but that is life!

[patowalker]

To see Czech Sport being 'ripped off' in China is a richly ironic experience.

Ahh, but they are not being ripped off, because Chip has always maintained that he and Danny owned the intellectual rights to the SC.

[robinmincik]

Steevo
Have a look at my Tecnam G-CEVM to compare it with the sportcruiser.
I liked the way they fly so much I have ordered a new 4 seat Tecnam to replace my lovely 2 seat p2002
If you come to Goodwood you would be welcome to check it out.

[Shoestring Flyer]

Steevo,

Follow your heart....The Sportcruiser is a great aircraft. I built and have owned mine for the past 4years, toured around Europe in it and it is great.
It is not perfect...In 30years of flying I have found all aircraft are a compromise. They all have faults and issues peculiar to their breed.

Personally I wouldn't want one that hadn't got a VP or CS Prop. It makes a massive difference to climb and cruise.
They handle crosswinds fine..dependant on your experience of course like all aircraft but I have landed in 20knots at 90 degrees without too much drama.
As others have said, avoid any that have been used for training, and again personally I would want one that had been a sole owner machine...one careful pilot etc. Group aircraft generally are not really cared for in the same way in my experience.

You could keep it outside, but personally I wouldn't.

Check if on EASA Permit or LAA Permit. Whilst both are the same aircraft it will be cheaper to maintain on a LAA permit. (DIY, with Inspector sign off)

Enjoy:).

[ETOPS]

I'm seriously considering one of these...

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ8ZdTqqWZ24H33Z2lIrLk7fTWWOZhMG3rFMS5yAVh eDVKXjfNRqw

Bristell Ng5 - the latest version of the Sportcruiser.

[piperboy84]

Perhaps if I may share my experience with aircraft ownership and operation it could be of help. I purchased an aircraft in the same price range and for similar use as you are now contemplating and am also a VFR duffer with no ambitions of becoming the next Chuck Yeager, but am totally addicted to flying.

Firstly I have no opinion on the Sport Cruiser (I don’t even know what it is) but think that whatever make/model you decide on, you do not under any circumstances want to have it parked up outside. Apart from the obvious weather related issues a good part of aircraft ownership is what I call the “faffing around factor” nothing gives me greater pleasure on days when I can’t fly due to weather, or escaping a couples day out with the other half’s mate and her prat boyfriend, or even on those long dark winter nights I love to whittle away hours and even days faffing around in the hangar doing minor cosmetic fixes, cleaning, checking, routine servicing, and simulating flying and doing stuff like running my emergency procedures and fully understanding the aircraft systems and avionics etc. Now I don’t go as far as sitting left seat moving the yoke and making engine noises but I am damned close!

If hangar space is not available at your local strip, find it further afield until you can secure a space locally. I would not own an airplane if I could not have it inside especially here in the UK and not one that’s worth 60 grand, it would be a damn shame to have a nice piece of highly personal kit sitting outside. To me the flying part accounts for about 75% of the buzz of aircraft ownership, the rest is as described above, and can for the most part only be really done and enjoyable when its inside with your tools, manuals, spares, filters, oil and all the rest of the **** you are going to need at hand.

I also didn't know whether my anticipated flying hours would justify buying over renting and like you, I assume are fortunate enough to not really care if it does. I'm doing about 100 hours a year now which would justify it anyway, I doubt I would be doing those hours if I was renting. If all you want to do is fly then renting is probably the way to go (and also gives you model flexibility) if you want the full aircraft experience, buy and put it in a hangar.

Bottom line, aircraft ownership/flying is an expensive endeavour, if you are committed to doing it and you can afford it, do it right and buy it and baby it.
Good luck and remember, opinions are like arseholes, everybody’s got one.

[Steevo25]

Thank you all for your comments.

A few comments that have been made are absolutely correct about not buying the first aircraft I see and also looking at shares.

My first thoughts were to become part of a syndicate but upon investigation I was finding this difficult. A lot of the syndicates would not even consider me due to my low hours and experience. Some said they would only accept people with a minimum of 300 hours P1 time. To build up that sort of time on a rental aircraft would cost me upwards of £30k. Even the C152s at my airfield are rented out for over £100 per hour and even if I was prepared to pay that, I wouldn't always get the slots I wanted or be able to do the type of trips (like keeping the aircraft all weekend) I plan doing.

The Sportcruiser did strike my eye the first time I saw one many months ago and from doing the research that I have it strikes me as a reasonable aircraft to have in terms of how it performs, running costs etc (reasonable in aviation terms I mean). I have only been in one for around 20 mins but even that 20 mins I felt that it was the aircraft for me. I am sure that there are many aircrafts that would suit me that I have never heard of or seen so I am really just starting out on the journey here. Apart from the initial expense of buying it, it seems I am not going to be able to do the sort of flying I want at much more reasonable costs but I want to go in to this with my eyes fully open as it's a very expensive mistake to make.

I know the depreciation on aircraft is large but I don't think I would be any worse off if I was renting or in a group when I weigh up the costs. With renting I would be doing far less hours and not have the flexibility. With a group share it looks as if it will be a little bit difficult to get with my current experience or I would have to travel a fair distance to use the aircraft.

I could start my own group but to be honest, if I had bought a good aircraft and got it how I wanted it, then I wouldn't really want to give it to someone else to fly very often.

[A and C]

It is interesting that you say "even the C152's at the local airfields rent for over £100/ hour "

The C152 is likely to be flying long after the Sports cruisers are long forgotten.

At the moment the first of my C152's is in on the Cessna SID's checks and it has less pulled rivets having flown 13,000 hours than two Sport cruisers that I have seen that both have less than 400 hours on the clock.

It is clear that the sport cruiser is a reasonable one owner aircraft but it is not robust enough to be used as a group aircraft or a trainer. The cost of maintenance and parts would wreck any business. That is why all the established training organizations are investing money in doing the SID's checks on their C152's and looking forward to the next 15,000 hours of flying.

My guess is that most sport cruisers won't see more than the life of the Rotax bolted to the front.

[Steevo25]

When I used the word 'even', I wasn't trying to suggest that the C152 was a low rate aircraft that is just old and rubbish. It served me all through my training and will always have a special place in my heart.

But even if I purchased a 152, the on-going costs are massive compared to that of a Sportcruiser not to mention about 50% more fuel at about 75% more per litre.

What I was trying to say was that in a cost perspective, about the cheapest aircraft I would be able to rent would be in that category that is still over £100 per hour wet. For 100 hundred hours per annum, that would equate to over £10k per year and even spending that would not allow me to use it when I wanted or the length of time I may need it for.

[Maoraigh1]

I bought a share in a Jodel DR1050 at the start of 1990, for £1600. I've still got the share. It's cost me > £77k over that time - (1400 + hours in it would be £74,000 at today's price. £50 per month today)
Wood/fabric so MUST be hangared, cruise at over 110kts, <25l/h mogas.
Much better load carrier, and rough field aircraft. Minimal avionics (radio +modeS) but I've done Inverness to Sligo in a one-er.
The more you've left to spend on flying the better.

[flybymike]

For a basic SEP of the type we are discussing I find a group entry requirement of 300 hours P1 extraordinary and ridiculous.

[A and C]

On the face of it I would agree with you 300 hours P1 for an SEP is a long way over the top ( I regularly fly with first officers on a B738 who don't have much more flying time) however I think that the 300 hour restriction reflects the fragility of the new generation of (very) light aircraft, they are built down to a weight and therefore are much more easly damaged by even moderately poor handeling.

As I said above I have seen less pulled rivets on a 13,000 hour Cessna 152 that has spent it's life as a basic trainer than I have seen on two sub 400 hour sport cruisers. The very worrying thing is that the pulled rivets on the sport cruisers are in critical areas of the structure.......... The pulled rivets on the Cessna are not !

I can only see the very restrictive flying hour requirements as an attempt to guard against accidental damage of this type of aircraft.

[Rod1]

I built and have been flying an MCR01 Club for 8 years. This is a VLA class (SEP) aircraft with a MTOW of 490kg. I use her for long distance VFR touring (eg week round Europe 2 up ) and she is based on an unlicensed grass strip. Total number of structural issues – ZERO. I help look after a number of similar (VLA) aircraft in the local area and the total number of structural issues I have come across is ZERO. None of the aircraft are of predominantly metal construction and none are grouped.

The problem I have with the SC is the performance. My machine does 138kn TAS and is worth around £50k. If I was happy to travel at 100kn a Jodel 1050 will outperform a SC in all areas for a cost of around £23k (it is a 2+2). On a typical bumpy summers day the SC will have to slow down but the Jodel will not, so the performance difference is actually quite large. I would look at the Tecnam.

Rod1

[flybymike]

On the face of it I would agree with you 300 hours P1 for an SEP is a long way over the top ( I regularly fly with first officers on a B738 who don't have much more flying time) however I think that the 300 hour restriction reflects the fragility of the new generation of (very) light aircraft, they are built down to a weight and therefore are much more easly damaged by even moderately poor handeling.
I suppose on that basis it could be argued that a low hour pilot who is much less set in his ways will be easier to train and come to terms with low inertia and fragility issues than a hardened old veteran with hundreds or thousands of hours on a "conventional " SEP.

[vabsie]

Hi Steevo ..

Like you I have always liked the look & feel of the SC - I still very much do.

I have also been fortunate enough to have been taken for a spin in a Flight Design CTLS and a Tecnam P2008 - both which in my opinion may also be of interest to you, albeit that they are high wings.

Would recommend you at least just sitting in these to get a feel for them to compare. It's easy to fall in love at first sight, but always good to have another option to compare against .. Just to make sure.

My favourite is the CTLS, but I'm not as experienced as most on this forum and just my very personal preference.

Good luck

Vabsie

[A and C]

Is the spin recovery conventional or do these types exhibit any unusual habits ?

[vabsie]

Hi A&C ..

I could try and write up a clever answer, but the truth is I am probably not qualified enough to give you an informed answer on the spinning habits of these types.

What I can say is that stalling in a CTLS (either a nose up power off or steep turn low speed) are practically non events (AT ALTITUDE) and recovery pretty much automatic if you just let go of everything.

Haven't done an actual spin in these sorry (as I do not own either and had limited time in them in demonstrators) - But spinning didn't seem to be on the menu for these aircraft for what we did - I'm sure we could have if we tried ;)

Sorry I didn't mean to come across as being an expert on these types (I'm not) - just liked the feel of them in the same way Steevo likes the SC.

Also you know what PPRUNE can be like - if any of my descriptions are out by a nano I would in internet terms be tortured and punished for life by those who know more :8

Vabsie

[tecman]

I can't comment on the CT or SC but the Tecnam stalls are a non-event, at least by my standards. The low wing P2002 will exercise you a little more than the P2008 or other high wing versions but, even then, things are very benign at all configurations and power settings I've tried. You can't legally spin any of them but my impression doing stalls, steep turns etc is that they fly very conventionally. I don't know how you'd really demonstrate aggressive stall behaviour from them but, then again, I've thought that about PA28s for years and lots of people learn to fly in the Pipers.

[letpmar]

I built and own a Sportcruiser and ave one of the new kits from China on order so am obviously a fan. I will sell the older one or form a group round it if I get the interest. Can't act me if you want a go.


Pete
07976 262833