Regarding ELECTRICAL THEORY BY JOSEPH LUCAS

[a330pilotcanada]

Good Morning All:

In the unlikely event this was not posted before please enjoy the following as I had tears in my eyes from laughing...

Positive ground depends on proper circuit functioning, which is the transmission of negative ions by retention of visible spectral manifestation know as "smoke".
Smoke is the thing that makes electrical circuits work. We know this to be true because every time one lets the smoke out of an electrical circuit, it stops working. This can be verified repeatedly through empirical testing.
For example, if one places a copper bar across the terminals of a battery, prodigious quantities of smoke are liberated and the battery shortly ceases to function. In addition, if one observes smoke escaping from an electrical component such as a Lucas voltage regulator, it will also be observed that the component no longer functions. The logic is elementary and inescapable!
The function of the wiring harness is to conduct the smoke from one device to another. When the wiring springs a leak and lets all the smoke out of the system, nothing works afterward.
Starter motors were considered unsuitable for British motorcycles for some time largely because they consumed large quantities of smoke, requiring very unsightly large wires.
It has been reported that Lucas electrical components are possibly more prone to electrical leakage than their Bosch, Japanese or American counterparts. Experts point out that this is because Lucas is British, and all things British leak. British engines leak oil, British shock absorbers, hydraulic forks and disk brake systems leak fluid, British tires leak air and British Intelligence leaks national defense secrets.
Therefore, it follows that British electrical systems must leak smoke. Once again, the logic is clear and inescapable.
In conclusion, the basic concept of transmission of electrical energy in the form of smoke provides a logical explanation of the mysteries of electrical components especially British units manufactured by Joseph Lucas, Ltd.
And remember: “A gentleman does not motor about after dark.”
Joseph Lucas “The Prince of Darkness”
1842-1903

A few Lucas quips:
The Lucas motto: “Get home before dark.”
Lucas is the patent holder for the short circuit.
Lucas - Inventor of the first intermittent wiper.
Lucas - Inventor of the self-dimming headlamp.
The three-position Lucas switch--DIM, FLICKER and OFF. The other three
switch settings--SMOKE, SMOLDER and IGNITE.
The Original Anti-Theft Device - Lucas Electrics.
If Lucas made guns, guns would not fire.
Back in the ‘70's, Lucas decided to diversify its product line and began manufacturing vacuum cleaners. It was the only product they offered which did not suck.
Q: Why do the British drink warm beer? A: Because Lucas makes their refrigerators.
This has been referred to as the smoke theory when the smoke comes out its finished, cooked or done for.
One more for you:
Why did the British never become a big factor in computer development?
Because they couldn't figure out a way to make a computer leak oil.

[Smilin_Ed]

Someone has been hiding Lucas' involvement in the 787. :E

[RR_NDB]

Hi,

A330pilotcanada,

You and Ed should remember smoke (not fire) "made the day" for Boeing in TAK.

The circuit opened in TWO POINTS confirming your theory:

1) In ground wire

2) Inside the "masterpiece" battery Boeing selected for the Dream.

The smoke was seen even by ATC. No fire, just smoke.

OTOH in BOS the smoke was generated mostly by firefighters. To the circuit, much better is the "internal smoke". Firefighters generates a variant of smoke not "pure". A kind of (artificial smoke)

I will comment more deep after revisiting the smokes i saw. Anyway, i will remember your theory and try to confirm it ASAP.

[FAR CU]

THE GOONSHOW SCRIPTS - (part the hair) -


Eidleburger:
Lord Seagoon? I must inform you zat zis Zeppelin is highly inflame-able. Therefore, Rauchen ist Verboten! Nicht Rauchen! Defence de Fumé! Nicht Fumé! Nicht Rauchen! RAUCHEN VERBOTEN!!!

Ned:
Cigarette?

Eidleburger:
Zank you.

GRAMS:
massive explosion

Eidleburger:
Geblunden verschitz!! Zese cigarettes are strong!

Ned:
I know, they're made of iron.

Spike (German) Captain Eidleburger, zis message has just come through ze electic mangle.

Eidleburger:
Geblungen! It's a tale of ze Keiser's shirt! Play it on zis gramophone immediately!

GRAMS:
Crackly record of Spike: (German) "As from today, Germany is no longer at peace with England."

[PJ2]

Simply brilliant stuff.

[blackhand]

A333pilot,
can you expain then why the smoke is a different colour ( or color) to the wire?
Red wire should give red smoke and so forth.
I have only seen black smoke.

[His dudeness]

a330pilotcanada, having had 3 British bikes I can´t help but laughin real loud.

Thanks a lot!

Mind you, the Triumph Rocket 3 I ride these days does not leak oil (!!!!), sometimes it does mark its patch with cooling water (something unheard of on earlier british bikes!). Despite having no Lucas stuff on the electrical system (at least I have not seen a Lucas label on any electrical part...) the engineers at Triumph have managed to design a flaw into the system, the ignition switch regularly goes awol if the system isn`t modified (to much current - the lights - going through the switch), so the 'Lucas spirit' lives on....

[mike-wsm]

1. Further research indicates that the visual embodiment of electricity known as Smoke has a fundamental state known as Green Tea.

1.1 In tests carried out on the Bristol R##### missile system, a circuit board carrying electrolytic capacitors was connected across the rectified output of the main generator.

1.2 The gallant little capacitors were observed to transmute into small neatly formed mounds of green tea.

1.3 Analysis showed that the lack of Smoke was due to reactive rather than resistive loading (it's a Power Factor thing) which left the Smoke in its primaeval form, Green Tea.

1.4 Further work was planned but funding became an unresolved management issue.

[RR_NDB]

Hi,

Mike-wsm @ # 8

Thanks for remembering there are "real smokes" (generated by DC circuits) and:

"Imaginary smokes" much more complex and rich. (explainable by Fourier, Maxwell, etc.). Power factor is just one component. There are many other. (RF, ESD, etc.)

On the comment on color wires (black smoke, coming from multicolor harness) the answer seems need further thinking.

Question:

Did "Lucas spirit" played a role in the "mastarpiece" battery supplied by a french company to introduce smoke into the (american) dream?

[Mac the Knife]

Hence the "smoke test" when building computers.

(As we all know, those little square plastic packages contain large volumes of compressed smoke, which makes the CPU work)

Finish building, turn on, if smoke-test -ve you are nearly there!

:E

[RR_NDB]

Hi,

a330pilotcanada:

Smoke is the thing that makes electrical circuits work. We know this to be true because every time one lets the smoke out of an electrical circuit, it stops working. This can be verified repeatedly through empirical testing.
For example, if one places a copper bar across the terminals of a battery, prodigious quantities of smoke are liberated and the battery shortly ceases to function.

In Takamatsu your theory was fully confirmed. It was not necessary to place the copper bar. The designers made it: The cell # 3 shorted to ground and the result was:

1) Smoke in large quantities.

2) Battery voltage went to zero, after some time fluctuating.

A corollary of your theory can be:

The smoke (in any design) must be contained.

An example: If not smoke in TAK, 787 would be flying today. (there was no fire, there, AFAIK)

:)

[a330pilotcanada]

Good Evening RR NDB

Just to be clear I did not write this but it was sent to me by a retired industry friend and as I found very funny so I posted it here for all to enjoy.

In closing I hope you have enjoyed it as much as I have...

[RR_NDB]

Hi,

a330pilotcanada:

In closing I hope you have enjoyed it as much as I have...

:ok:

Smoke is the thing that makes electrical circuits work. We know this to be true because every time one lets the smoke out of an electrical circuit, it stops working. This can be verified repeatedly through empirical testing.


This part is the best!

Thank you

PS

Let´s see what 787 fix will be regarding, smoke. :)

[DozyWannabe]

Apropos of nothing, Joseph Lucas died long before the company that bore his name developed its notorious reputation due to long association with the late car manufacturer BMC (Austin/Morris/Triumph/Rover/Jaguar) - later British Leyland.

For all my opinion's worth, Lucas themselves didn't really deserve that notoriety, as most of the legendary faults tended to be due to poor workmanship during fitting and assembly, and as such was out of their hands.

In fact there are a lot of parallels that can be drawn between the British motor and aviation industries between the '50s and the '70s. In both cases the R&D and technology levels were world-class, but the actual production environment tended to suffer badly from management interference and political chicanery. Aviation was particularly poorly-served by the latter.

For example - here's Harris Mann's original concept design for the Austin Allegro:

http://www.aronline.co.uk/images/ado67dev_06.jpg

And here's what several months of re-design by management committee turned it into (squared-off "Quartic" steering wheel :ugh: not shown...):

http://aronline.co.uk/images/ado67bro_03.jpg

The story of the DH.121 Trident is similar, except that while the aircraft remained relatively pleasing aesthetically, BEA's interference left it woefully underpowered and limited capacity-wise.

(proud Rover owner... ;) )

[mike-wsm]

(proud Rover owner... )

Is that what happens when you type "Trabant"?

[911slf]

While the products were rubbish, the Great King Street factory was wonderful. The building was so heavily constructed it cost a fortune to demolish.

Here are pictures of it.
Lucas Memories Great King Street (http://www.lucasmemories.co.uk/site/GreatKingStreet/index.html)

Don't try to contact the original poster. Her little button is broken. I don't think it will smoke if you press it. :hmm:

They pay me a pension of £11.90 per annum (not index linked). :{

[MurphyWasRight]

A long time ago I had a suddenly dead very expensive ($5K) Hitachi monitor just before a critical demo.

I had a contact # for a real tech support person from a prior issue so I called him and started to descibe a couple of preliminay checks I had done.

He stopped me and said:
"see that brown electrolytic cap near the flyback"
when I said yes he replied
"that's your problem, a good one would still be blue".

Changed it out problem solved. Received updated boards for our units we had a short while later.

[west lakes]

For every problem, there is a solution

http://media.diynot.com/3000_2801_57005_46672665.jpg?AWSAccessKeyId=0FGFJJC9EFAG5882 Z0G2&Expires=1361295456&Signature=voD5VaPv4fF7XIc8bBRdCQHUiBM%3D

[DozyWannabe]

Is that what happens when you type "Trabant"?

Actually no - though the ECV concept of the early '80s did have a more-or-less perfected 3-cylinder lean-burn engine.

For all Clarkson likes to grouch, the '80s vintage Rover Group lay a lot of the technical foundations that we see being used almost across the board these days. Honda's position in the European market would have been far less assured if it weren't for the collaboration with Rover back then, and the much- (and unfairly) maligned K-Series engine provided the blueprint for all the lean-burn 16v 4-bangers in use today. That's just two examples off the top of my head.

Digging further back, they bought a 50's era V8 design from Buick that GM considered mediocre at the time and re-engineered it into an powerplant which not only stayed in production for almost half a decade, but retained widespread respect until the day it was discontinued.

While never achieving the aim of matching BMW in terms of reputation, I still see more '80s and '90s vintage Rovers still soldiering on than any other UK-built cars.

[Agaricus bisporus]

Let us not forget Lucas' equally dismal partner in grime WiPac.

Incidentally no mere Triumph ever carried the hallowed name Rocket Three, that would be rather like claiming to have a Baptist Pope or an E Type Rover. I think the poor thing widdling water on the drive is a largely Jap (or maybe Korean) made impostor albeit one partially assembled here. The ghastly confused name tells us even the manufacturers don't really know what it is. ;)

The real thing, complete with Joe Jucas and WiPac electrics. And (apart from tears of oily nostalgia) not a drop of water to be seen!
http://i213.photobucket.com/albums/cc189/agaricusbisporus/bsa-rocket-3-02_zpsf3654bdb.jpg

[Chu Chu]

I have friends who swear that the British habit of drinking warm beer is attributable to the prevalence of Lucas refrigerators on that side of the pond.

[mike-wsm]

Nah, we had so much Lucas that we avoided electric fridges and bought gas-powered ones.

nQCIW1aU1kY

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01795/morris-minor1-fron_1795826b.jpg

Morris Minor with Lucas electric fuel pump

Owners of this delightful little beauty always carried a front seat passenger carefuly instructed in the exact place to stamp on the front bulkhead to urge the Lucas electric fuel pump on the other side of the bulkhead back into action.

Owners of other vehicles, like the Austin 1800, had to pull over, get out, go round the back, and kick the pump, mounted under the rear bumper. Mine was all too easy prey for next door's daughter's motor-cycling boyfriend who would have the pipe off and filch a couple of gallons.

[Uplinker]

Quite right about electrons from a circuit actually having appearance of smoke if released! - electronics engineers talk about a 'loud brown smell' - when a circuit is burning up and releasing it's electrons!

The problem with LUCAS* was use of poor quality (i.e. cheap) materials and connectors open to the elements, which corroded in a car/bike environment after only a few years - enough to get the thing out of the showroom and just beyond the guarantee period.

Look at a modern Audi or Porsche for example, and the electrical connectors are fully enclosed and sealed against water and dust ingress by rubber seals. Take one of these apart and the connectors are still clean bright and shiny after 10 years!



*Not only LUCAS. The Jaguar XJS for example should have been a wonderful car, but it was ruined by the use of cheap poor quality components.

[west lakes]

Meanwhile



I think this report confirms what has been said:-

For years it has been believed that electric bulbs emitted light. However, recent information from Bell Labs has proven otherwise. Electric bulbs don't emit light; they suck dark. Thus they now call these bulbs dark suckers. The dark sucker theory, according to a spokesman from the Labs, proves the existence of dark, that dark has mass heavier than that of light, and that dark is faster than light.

The basis of the dark sucker theory is that electric bulbs suck dark. Take for example the dark suckers in the room where you are. There is less dark right next to them than there is elsewhere. The larger the dark sucker, the greater its capacity to suck dark. Dark suckers in a parking lot have a much greater capacity than the ones in this room.

As with all things, dark suckers don't last forever. Once they are full of dark, they can no longer suck. This is proven by the black spot on a full dark sucker. A new candle has a white wick. You will notice that after the first use, the wick turns black, representing all the dark which has been sucked into it. If you hold a pencil next to the wick of an operating candle, the tip will turn black because it got in the path of the dark flowing into the candle. Unfortunately, these primitive dark suckers have a very limited range.

There are also portable dark suckers. The bulbs in these can't handle all of the dark by themselves, and must be aided by a dark storage unit. When the dark storage unit is full, it must be either emptied or replaced before the portable dark sucker can operate again.

Dark has mass. When dark goes into a dark sucker, friction from this mass generates heat. Thus it is not wise to touch an operating dark sucker. Candles present a special problem, as the dark must travel in the solid wick instead of through glass. This generates a great amount of heat. Thus it can be very dangerous to touch an operating candle.

Dark is also heavier than light. If you swim deeper and deeper, you notice it gets darker and darker. When you reach a depth of approximately fifty feet, you are in total darkness. This is because the heavier dark sinks to the bottom of the lake and the ligher light floats to the top.

The immense power of dark can be utilized to a man's advantage. We can collect the dark that has settled to the bottom of lakes and push it through turbines, which generates electricity and helps push it to the ocean where it may be safely stored. Prior to turbines, it was much more difficult to get dark from rivers and lakes to the ocean. The Indians recognized this problem and tried to solve it. When on a river in a canoe traveling in the same direction as the flow of dark, they paddled slowly, so as not to stop the flow of dark, but when they traveled against the flow of dark, they paddled quickly so as to help push the dark along its way.

Finally, we must prove that dark is faster than light. If you stand in an illuminated room in front of a closed, dark closet, then slowly open the door, you would see the light slowly enter the closet, but since the dark is so fast, you would not be able to see the dark leave the closet.

In conclusion, Bell Labs stated that dark suckers make all our lives much easier. So the next time you look at an electric light bulb, remember that it is indeed a dark sucker.

[DozyWannabe]

The problem with LUCAS* was use of poor quality (i.e. cheap) materials and connectors open to the elements, which corroded in a car/bike environment after only a few years
...
Look at a modern Audi or Porsche for example, and the electrical connectors are fully enclosed and sealed against water and dust ingress by rubber seals.

The key word is "modern". Lucas components that were low-draw and low-voltage did indeed have rubber seals by the late '70s, but putting rubber seals around some high-draw, high-voltage components was a no-no for many years because the rubber compounds available at the time released hydrofluoric acid (which is *really* corrosive, nasty stuff) if they were burned. More modern compounds were developed that no longer had this dangerous property.

*Not only LUCAS. The Jaguar XJS for example should have been a wonderful car, but it was ruined by the use of cheap poor quality components.

Jaguars used Lucas electrics, as they were a part of the BMC/BL group until the late '80s if I recall correctly. The real problem with the XJS was that it drank like a rugby team.

The "facelifted" XJS of the mid '80s, as with the Rover SD1, had most of the build quality issues sorted out - unfortunately too late to rescue their reputations.

[Uplinker]

Love the 'dark' theory - explains a lot! Funny if it turned out to be true, and that's where all the dark matter scientists are looking for actually is!

As one who very foolishly spent a lot of time and effort on a complete restoration of an SD1 Vitesse V8, and got to know all it's systems intimately; they had sadly not sorted out the electrical or any other problems by the 80's - they were slightly better than the 70's offerings, but still built down to a price and still unreliable.

According to James May, the XJS was awful not simply because it drank fuel, but because all the components; bushes, connectors etc, were built down to a price rather than up to a standard. So what should have been a premium car with good longevity was a total lemon.

Having said that, the Rover 200 series were good, but that's because they were basically Hondas - or at least drew heavily from the Honda ?Accord of the time that they were developed alongside.

PS Hydrofluoric acid is indeed very dangerous. If a certain type of seal compound has been subjected to temperatures above I think 450 degs, (i.e burnt in a fire), hydrofluoric acid can be produced. If hydroflouric acid gets onto you, the only cure is amputation. So be very careful.

[mike-wsm]

Jags are widely known in the us as fast rusters, which does nothing to help the electrical integrity of ground connections.

[Takeoff53]

I could not hold my tears while reading. And after riding and servicing a BSA Rocket about 40 years ago and a Land Rover about 30 years ago, I have to say: Every word is true!:ok:

[737Jock]

Wtf... Are you guys on about?

[cockney steve]

Been there, done that. BSA A65 Star..It was just over a year old and the ticket-price represented a 25% loss to the first owner :eek: As a pimply youth on about £8 a week, I couldn't concieve losing that much, that quickly.
Shortly after purchase, the battery croaked, that didn't matter, 'cos the rectifier (still Selenium , in 1963! ) followed....then the Alternator lost a set of coils, reducing output and necessitating a major spend to replace all3 items.

All products of the Prince of Darkness factory.

The bike ,of course, vibrated like a SOB the gearbox stripped a load of teeth, necessitating the attentions of one Mr. Bert Saunders of Leigh on sea (Velo and Norton agents) -Anyone remember them?

Other than that and the Dualseat-stitching all perishing before it was 3 years old, it was actually quite reliable...but, due to the woefully inadequate 8 inch cotton-reel that served as front-brake, I coveted one of the Rice-Grinders...a honda Dream, IIRC, with an enormous, beautifully -engineered TWIN-LEADING-SHOE front stopper. (it would have bent the A65's forks!)
Yes, had a xjs-V12...velvet-smooth , fearsome in the damp or wet,unless the right -foot was restrained and it took about 6 hours just to change the plugs. A lot of the underpinnings were carried-over from the Mk.10 Saloon -a huge, bulbous, wallowy turd of a thing,so wide at the seat-height, you could sleep across them, sideways. Xjs did about 18mpg overall...the Rolls Spirit (6.75L ) averaged 14....again, a car blighted by it's enormously complex electrics which very rarely all work simultaneously. needless to say, touched with the black hand of the Prince.

[cockney steve]

737Jock Wtf... Are you guys on about?

Jock,- It's a bit of naus-o-stalgia, really....the Jap cars were starting to become european -styled and gaining foothold, but the vast majority of vehicles were BMC,(Morris AustinWolseley Riley) (MOWOG :p) Standard-Triumph (Stanpart)
Ford (Enfo or FoMoCo) Vauxhall..Jaguar. Apart from Vauxhall Using AC-Delco/Delco-remy, and Ford using some Fomoco stuff, Lucas had a monopoly supply
of electrics the vast majority of alternators, starters, distributors switches and lights were theirs. design was , by-and- large fairly good. Execution was usually pretty poor.

Hence we take the rise out of their slogan "Lucas King of the Road"

All gone now, latterly owned by Delphi (who kept the flame flickering with their god-awful injector-pumps)..last I heard, they'd gone as well.

Indeed, the "Great" has gone from Great Britain :{

[cwatters]

Indeed, the "Great" has gone from Great Britain

I dissagree. Which country designs 95% of the processors use in mobile phones?

ARM Set To Dominate The Embedded Chips Market (http://invezz.com/news/tech/1488-arm-set-to-dominate-the-embedde-chips-market)

ARM (LON:ARM), the British chip maker which provides chips for 95 percent of mobile phones, is taking over another prosperous market, Bloomberg reported on February 19th. Last year the company’s market share of the intelligent systems market reached 60 percent, well ahead of rival Intel (NASDAQ:INTC) and the rest of the competition.

[DozyWannabe]

Having said that, the Rover 200 series were good, but that's because they were basically Hondas - or at least drew heavily from the Honda ?Accord of the time that they were developed alongside.

At the risk of showing considerably more interest in the subject than is healthy, that's a widely-believed and perpetrated myth (while the main development happened in Japan, Rover were shuttling teams of 20-30 engineers back and forth at all times). The R8 200/400s were originally known as the YY/HY project, and were a proper bona-fide collaboration. More details here, if anyone's interested.

Rover 200 400 history (http://www.aronline.co.uk/blogs/cars/rover/200-400/the-cars-rover-200400/)

The Honda model (HY) was called the Concerto in the UK. :)

[Uplinker]

Concerto - that was it. The Rover 200/400's were basically those but with the K series engine, and Macpherson struts.....OK, that's enough now.....:O

[DozyWannabe]

The point I was making was that the R8 200/400 was not just a rebadged Honda Concerto, the car itself was designed from scratch as a collaborative process between Rover and Honda.

The *older* 213/216 was effectively a re-badged and facelifted Honda Ballade though.

[syseng68k]

To be honest, Lucas electrics were no worse than many others 40 or 50 years ago.
Having restored and run twin cam 60's and 70's Alfa for many years, I can tell you
that Marelli electrics were far worse.

The only really properly sorted auto electrics at the time came from .de, as I
discovered later on getting a divorce from the expensive mistress and buying a
sensible but oh so relable Audi :cool:..

[DozyWannabe]

Older German cars outside of the "premium" brands (i.e BM and Mercedes) tended to be much simpler electrically if memory serves me correctly, which is sensible in engineering terms - less to go wrong. I have seen more than a few Opels and Audis on the fritz (no pun intended) though, so it's not a hard-and-fast rule.

I do wonder if the British love of complaining has led to an undeserved reputation for the old Prince Of Darkness though. ;)

[blind pew]

Cockney steve - yes remember Bert.. Used to use Sunny at Rayleigh motorcycles - 2nd mortgage job.
Then there was Bert Greeves belting up the artillery road in his inva car.
Back to electrics - cant get any worse than French ones - cars or domestics!

[syseng68k]

Doze:

One of the great joys of owning an older classic is the simplicity. Even working in
electronics, there's nothing easier to fix by the roadside than a set of points or a
simple carburetter. I still do most of the maintenance on my vehicles and have only
just recently had to buy obd tools to diagnose faults. Not cheap, but a few hours
garage time and it's paid for itself. All the emissions control nonsense means
electronics must be used, with sensors sticking out everywhere and they aren't
industrial quality either.

As for the electrics, cars of the 60's through 80's were much simpler, but one
main difference between the continentals and uk was in the fusing. There was / is
usually a separate fuse even for each headlight filament on the continentals, whereas
uk sometimes had a single fuse for all the lights. Quite usefull in the dead of night
when the fuse blows and all the lights go out :eek:...

[fleigle]

FUSES !!!! thats wot wires are for !!!!!, without wires you can't let the smoke out !!!!!

There we are, full circle !

Getting back to reality, I have spent the last 2 days re-buiding my BMW motorbike in-fuel tank wiring and plumbing, what a royal PITA !!!!.
Give the astronomical price of spares (to pay all of those engineers) they do have some really crap materials in there.
I too do long for the days of carbs, petcocks, and simple switches.
Have a great weekend all.

[blind pew]

Bugg@red about with good old distributors, points and mechanical fuel pumps on my miniblock 318 in a 1967 Bristol for years.
Stuck in a dragster fuel pump, dragster electronic distibutor and after a month a load of cable as thick as your thumb to arrest the smoke emitting from under the dashboard - transformed.
Now the Only visible smoke is in the rear view mirror - two sources - both expensive - tyres last 7000 miles and a set are €2000 and leaded gasoline 12mpg- but it's the kids money!

[syseng68k]

blind pew:

Nothing quite like the sound of a V8 in full cry, but my old 1994 Audi will still
leave the smell of rubber in it's wake given a good bootfull and that's with
all 4 wheels driven Brute force or subtlety has always been a taxing problem :confused:

Mind you, there's also nothing quite like the intoxicating throttle response that you
can get from a properly set up set of DCOE Weber carbs aside a well sorted
twin cam engine.

Perhaps we should rename this thread the last gasp of the petrolheads ?, but it is
Sunday after all :)...

[blind pew]

Sys68
My spare is an Aprilia tuono rsv 4 Aprc - 158 bhp - about five times the power to weight ratio though not the same noise - as Paul Newman answered to the sweetest thing in life - the sound of a V8 -although I personally prefer a Merlin!
Was passing the end of Southends runway as the memorial flight lifted off.
Bristol's roof open.
The spit and hurricane passed 50 ft above my head and did an orbit joining up with the Lanc.
Ecstasy and legal too :)

[syseng68k]

My spare is an Aprilia tuono rsv 4 Aprc - 158 bhp - about five times the
power to weight ratio though not the same noise - as Paul Newman answered
to the sweetest thing in life - the sound of a V8 -although I personally
prefer a Merlin! Was passing the end of Southends runway as the memorial
flight lifted off. Bristol's roof open. The spit and hurricane passed 50 ft
above my head and did an orbit joining up with the Lanc. Ecstasy and legal
too.
Confession, in that bikes were only really ever a means of transport for me,
in the days before I could afford to run a car. The old brit bikes weren't
that bad, but no fun in the dead of winter at -5C, Oxford to Portsmouth and
layers of newspaper down the front of the Belstaff. Little brother still
restores bikes though and has for years.

The Merlin is truly art in metal, with a glorious sound. Last heard one
at Wycombe, when a Spit flew over the field at low altitude. Instantly
smitten.

As for V8's, how about that Shelby GT390 in Bullet driving round the car
park at little more than idle rpm, like a spring poised for action. Boys
toys indeed.

The engine is the heart and soul of any vehicle :D...

[cockney steve]

@ Blind pew.... Ah! Invacar at Thundersley!...killed off instantly when the gov't sensibly decided on the Mobility allowance scheme. Spaz-wagons , we called them in that politically-incorrect age.

Len Pease little shop in a side street near the Elms. just rebuily Sunbeams and Scotts..had a corrugated lean-to next door with several bike projects there on open -view. you couldn't leave them chained and sheeted, nowadays.

@syseng. You' Sir, are a true masochist. trying to stop the noise of an Alfa rusting, whilst struggling to make the engine run with that wonderful brown MM bakelite distributor cap which had built -in tracking.(the earlier form of theft-prevention which pinched the term.)

@ Cwatters....ARM may be a ray of sunshine in a sea of mediocrity, but one swallow..... (as the actress may have said to the bishop.....or was that Monica Lewinsky?

[Uplinker]

One of the great joys of owning an older classic is the simplicity. Even working in
electronics, there's nothing easier to fix by the roadside than a set of points or a
simple carburetter.

True to a point, but those old systems are also very unreliable, and go out of adjustment very quickly, meaning you HAVE to be constantly fiddling with them! I mean, what designer ever thought it would be a good idea to have a mechanical switch to distribute 25kV all around an engine, (and tracking and leaking everywhere it shouldn't be), rather than the individual ignition coils we have now, and have a mechanical sliding mechanism to alter the ignition timing? :{

Does anyone remember the "dawn chorus" of the 1970's; when all you could hear in every street in the cold mornings was cars cranking over and occasionally firing, but not starting? :hmm:

Modern ignition, fuel injection and engine management systems are so reliable these days; engines always start first turn of the key. The ignition adjusts each individual cylinder timing many times a second, and also allow for different fuels, using knock sensors.

[Agaricus bisporus]

what designer ever thought it would be a good idea to have a mechanical switch to distribute 25kV all around an engine, (and tracking and leaking everywhere it shouldn't be), rather than the individual ignition coils we have now, and have a mechanical sliding mechanism to alter the ignition timing?

er...a designer in an age where electronic ignition hadn't yet been invented?? WTF else could he have used???

[Uplinker]

Oh here we go - and we were all getting on so well.

The transistor was invented in 1948.

Pre transistor ignition could have switched 12V instead of 25kV, and used individual step-up coils to transform 12V to 25kV at each spark plug as they do now. Would have saved a lot of grief.

[cockney steve]

[QUOTE][Pre transistor ignition could have switched 12V instead of 25kV, and used individual step-up coils to transform 12V to 25kV at each spark plug as they do now. Would have saved a lot of grief./QUOTE]

ERRM....but that's exactly what they DID do! Primary of coil was energised via points....created strong magnetic flux in coil....points opened, flux colapsed, aided by condenser which also damped arc-over at points....collapse induced high voltage in secondary......now the clever bit:8
the same shaft was utilised to drive the rotor-arm which merely guided the HT to the appropriate "stud" in the cap which was assigned to the correct cylinder........the cap served more than one purpose It held the HT leads in alignment to catch the HT pulse, kept damp and dirt out and insulated the HT leads from each other and "earth"

Some very early engines had 2 wires in the cylinder-one was cranked to touch the other and mechanically swivelled to form a spark-gap,as it was fed , initially, with battery-voltage (usually very low...6V was standard-practice before WW2 and early 50's saw standardisation of Negative-Ground and 12 volts.
Let's not forget the "Trembler-Coil"..basically an electric-doorbell without the gong and hammer!
When the speed of V-8's made timing marginal and sparks weaker, Prince of Darkness used 2 sets of points in series, thus almost doubling the available Dwell-time....a kludge but it worked reasonably well.

they developed electronic ignition in the late 70's Rolls Shadows and Spirits had a potted board with 4 transistors, in the Distributor body..a n inductive pickup was aligned to an 8-finned sleeve on the central shaft..as a fin passed the pickup it disrupted the current-flow...amplified and used to switch the coil primary....a conventional cap and rotor distributed the spark-current to the appropriate cylinder.

I think Jaguar , triumph stag, Rover/range Rover all used the same system.

After~20 years, the low-signal transistors became unreliable...car wouldn't start or would cut-out , only to restart after a 5-minute rest and often perform faultlessly for days ,before playing-up again.
The transistors used were at the bleeding edge, in their day....modern replacements ~5p each give instant starting and reliable running...

Give the Prince his due, late to the table, but produced the goods when he got there.

Unlike the modern system, one cylinder misfiring didn't bring everything to a grinding halt

Magnetos were used on early aircraft....still used today...100 years of proven ,reliable technology at work:D

[749CONNIE]

http://i594.photobucket.com/albums/tt24/habudrvr/LOTUS2.jpg

My LUCAS experience while stationed at RAF Lakenheath '78-'82. All comments about LUCAS applied.

[Uplinker]

With respect, Steve, I think you've missed my point:

I was saying distrubute the 12V to each cylinder, NOT the 25kV, and step it up at each spark plug.

I know how the usual points + condenser feeding ONE step-up coil and then distributing the 25kV works, (I was/am an electronics engineer), and have also rebuilt more than a few engines fitted with conventional electro/mechanical ignition in my time. I also know how easily the 25kV can track and short to earth in the usual environment of a car engine bay in the UK.

A buddy who had another SD1 V8 once opened the bonnet at night with the engine running. You should have seen the 'fireworks' display of lots of 25kV leaking and sparking to earth all over the engine! Dunno what make of high tension leads he was using, but obviously not very good ones.......

[cockney steve]

A buddy who had another SD1 V8 once opened the bonnet at night with the engine running. You should have seen the 'fireworks' display of lots of 25kV leaking and sparking to earth all over the engine! Dunno what make of high tension leads he was using, but obviously not very good ones.......

:} been there! customer came in on a dark autumn night...car wouldn't start and he'd bumped it down into an unlit lane without success.
Opened the bonnet ,owner cranked and I watched the scale model Aurora borealis under the bonnet... "hold it" ,sprayed a liberal wafting of WD40 over the leads and ignition, with a gentle breeze behind me..."Right, try it" click WHOOMPF...A mighty sheet of blue flame leapt up the windscreen....and it started.

I learned something that night :O

given the materials of the day, I think you'd have struggled! multiple points would have been possible, but the coils would have still been large ,given the insulation and manufacturing techniques available, not to mention all the dodgy LT connections needed.
PVC insulated copper leads were the least trouble but they were outlawed when the resistive carbon-impregnated supressor-leads were developed. (they, together with resistor-plugs go "high" and cause all sorts of problems, but some electronic systems NEED the resistance in order to work!-shorting -out a lead can kill the ignition module :{

The present system is, by and large, less reliable than the single-coil/dizzy model, though i just recently dragged in a Golf with the square-frame coil cooked. (bulkhead mounted)....the ones on top of the plugs get cooked, leading to premature failure...then you HAVE to buy the dedicated stick of all 4.

[Uplinker]

Fair points, Steve. Ah yes, WD40, the saviour of many an ignition system!* (A friend recommended spraying a can of WD40 all over the engine bay** before each winter. Works a treat! It keeps all the hoses etc as well as the electrics in showroom condition).

* But not as good as the Australian versions: "Start you bastard!", and "For christ sake come on!". Have a look probably on youtube - you will laugh for days!

** do this with a cold engine, switched off, and don't spray the belts too much.

Yes, unfortunately, now that accountants are in charge of every industry, they have made scr*wing us, the public, an artform. Witness; making us pay through the nose for everything and anything they can think of........

[barit1]

Forgive me if I missed it, but Mr. Ford's Model T (Any color, as long as it's black) had an individual spark coil for each cylinder. 6V battery though, not 12V.

The cute little spark coils were each in a little wooden case, and for decades they were employed by jokesters who wanted to "energize" unwitting victims, either human or animal. I'm sure the coils can still be bought at antique car parts shops.

[cwatters]

When I was growing up we applied our own "life force energiser" to suitable victims. It was made from a 9V battery, a small electric motor and a 230V to 9V transformer used backwards.

[pulse1]

I never realised that Wipac was part of Lucas, even though I worked for Girling which was also part of the Lucas Group. Wipac electrics were even worse than Lucas. I was daft enough to buy the last AJS motorbike ever made, a 350cc with Wipac electrics. That bike was a brilliant illustration of why the British motorcycle industry failed. It was useless in every way imaginable, especially the coil ignition system, unlike the magnetos used at that time by every other motorbike.

[DozyWannabe]

Fair points, Steve. Ah yes, WD40, the saviour of many an ignition system!*

Even more so when used in conjunction with Vaseline. As soon as you get a nip in the air, clean the contacts with switch cleaner, douse in WD40, make the connection and smear Vaseline around the rubber or plastic seal. This keeps it all clean and prevents water ingress.

This is particularly useful with electric radiator cooling fans, which are the Achilles' heel of a lot of modern engine designs. A lot of the time when you hear about modern engines being susceptible to head gasket failure, such failures are usually the result of the fan connections getting gunked up and stopping it from cooling the water in the rad when stationary. This leads to hot water being pumped back through the engine, overheating and - eventually - HGF.

The K-Series in the Land Rover Freelander was a special case though, and was down to the Ford engineers not understanding how the K-Series worked (specifically how closely engineered the tolerances were). Admittedly the stock gaskets were pants, but that was a secondary issue. A lot of grief could have been avoided if they'd simply moved the thermostat switch from the radiator out pipe to the in pipe.

[Lightning Mate]

The question is:

Does electrikery flow from positive to negative or vice versa?

[Busserday]

Depends:
Conventions

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2e/Current_notation.svg/230px-Current_notation.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Current_notation.svg) http://bits.wikimedia.org/static-1.21wmf10/skins/common/images/magnify-clip.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Current_notation.svg)
The electrons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electron), the charge carriers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charge_carrier) in an electrical circuit, flow in the opposite direction of the conventional electric current.


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/28/Battery_symbol2.svg/100px-Battery_symbol2.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Battery_symbol2.svg) http://bits.wikimedia.org/static-1.21wmf10/skins/common/images/magnify-clip.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Battery_symbol2.svg)
The symbol (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_symbol) for a battery in a circuit diagram (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circuit_diagram).


A flow of positive charges gives the same electric current, and has the same effect in a circuit, as an equal flow of negative charges in the opposite direction. Since current can be the flow of either positive or negative charges, or both, a convention for the direction of current which is independent of the type of charge carriers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charge_carrier) is needed. The direction of conventional current is defined arbitrarily to be the direction of the flow of positive charges.
In metals, which make up the wires and other conductors in most electrical circuits (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_circuit), the positive charges are immobile, and the charge carriers are electrons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electron). Because the electron carries negative charge, the electron motion in a metal conductor is in the direction opposite to that of conventional (or electric) current.
Reference direction

When analyzing electrical circuits, the actual direction of current through a specific circuit element is usually unknown. Consequently, each circuit element is assigned a current variable with an arbitrarily chosen reference direction. This is usually indicated on the circuit diagram with an arrow next to the current variable. When the circuit is solved, the circuit element currents may have positive or negative values. A negative value means that the actual direction of current through that circuit element is opposite that of the chosen reference direction. In electronic circuits, the reference current directions are often chosen so that all currents are toward ground. This often matches conventional current direction, because in many circuits the power supply (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_supply) voltage is positive with respect to ground.

[Lightning Mate]

Nicely said Busserday. :ok:

Since electrical current is a flow of electrons, which are negatively charged, then the flow must be from negative to positive.

Just where the idea of "conventional" came from I don't know, but it sure confuses the issue.

[Uplinker]

Yes, true enough.

I suspect that the conventional current flow model of circuits, i.e; from +ve to -ve arose because it looked more sensible and was easier to follow. Circuits are usually drawn with the +ve voltage rail at the top and the -ve rail (which is often earth or chassis earth too), at the bottom. This makes 'reading' an electronic circuit much more intuitive - like a page of a book - one imagines the current flowing from top to bottom, and (usually) left to right, rather than what it actually does; from bottom to top. It makes no real difference to one's understanding of a circuit whether one is thinking of positrons (or 'holes') flowing from +ve to -ve, or electrons flowing in the opposite direction.

I suppose you could ask why we write words from left to right, and from top to bottom - it could be done differently, for example Chinese and some Middle Eastern languages, but it's just a convention I guess.

Now, can someone remind me why positive earth vehicles arose? It was to do with electrolytic corrosion I think - does anyone know?


U

[Lightning Mate]

I have no idea, but you may well be correct.

[Uplinker]

I've found that spoof engine product I mentioned - it's not a spray, but an engine additive.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cY1YndLmbXQ

[barit1]

Does electrikery flow from positive to negative or vice versa?

Currently, it alternates.

:E

[Chu Chu]

I couldn't find a positive ground (earth) story I liked online, so I'll make up my own. The few "conventional" ignition systems I've played with had one side of the points connected to the coil, and the other side to ground (through the condenser).

Positive ground would mean that the points switched the positive lead to the coil. Being firmly in the P to N camp, this seems more natural to me. If I were, say, converting a magneto system to a battery, I'd probably hook it up this way.

[RR_NDB]

Hi,

What kind of batteries Haunebu (http://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/493222-one-ufo-month.html#post7734612) used?

:confused:

[compressor stall]

It's not a spoof product.

Start Ya Bastard Instant Engine Starter- Nulon Australia (http://www.nulon.com.au/products/Aerosols/Start_Ya_Bastard_Instant_Engine_Starter/#.UTwCABEaySM)

[Uplinker]

Thanks Compressor. The product you've found is a highly flammable combustion assister - sprayed into the intake, whereas WD40 is of course sprayed on the ignition components to drive off water and damp. (I think WD40 stands for "Water Dispersant, mix no. 40", and was developed for the space industry).

I can't remember the name of the equivalent combustion assister product in the UK, but clearly remember its use in starting reluctant diesel engines!

[lasernigel]

A great thread, only just come across it.

Saying that and all the slagging of Lucas ( yes I've had my fare share of faults over the years).

A question, who does French car electrics? Is it part of Thales the infamous 787 fiasco?? They are notoriously unreliable.

[cockney steve]

Ducellier, Paris-Rhone...gone...ditto Magneti-Marelli, WIco-PACey C,A.Vandervell -Even the Prince, Joseph Lucas...absorbed into Delphi, along with Lockheed-Girling....AC-Delco, a GM brand....oh dear ,I feel old.
Yet former Eastern Bloc crap like Iskra and Narva are market forces
Recently referred to a Teves braking-system (Alfred Teves) Specialist brake factor had never heard of tham.....ATE? well, why didn't you say!
I, too, heard that electrolytic corrosion, combined with Monocoque construction (less metal to rust away) precipitated the standardisation of Neg. "Earth"
Uplinker has it!
Rocket WD40 was the original name on the new-fangled Aerosol cans and was, indeed, purported to be a spinoff from NASA's Space-Programme. (Program ,for the Septics);) As was non-stick coating on frying-pans (teflon, PTFE)

great nostalgia thread!

[daved123]

I also seem to remember the change from +ve to -ve earth was said to be due to reduced anodic (cathodic?) corrosion effect on the bodywork with winter road salts thrown into the equation.
I have a vague memory of the engine starter aerosol being called something like Bradex. Found myself once or twice after spraying a dose into the air cleaner intake wondering whether to go and give it a 'start ya bastard' with the key or just stay there sniffing for a minute longer.

[Agaricus bisporus]

Well, never let facts get in the way of a good myth...

PTFE was invented by DuPont in 1932 - "Teflon" is just a trade name. So its discovery and development had nothing whatsoever to do with space.

Aerosol cans were patented in 1931 in Europe (Denmark?) so hardly new-fangled in 1953 when WD 40 was created as an industrial product so named from "water dispersant" product No. 40. Although it was developed for corrosion protection in military missiles it had nothing to do with NASA which would not be created for another 5 years.

"Septics" is unpleasant and probably racist, even with a smilie. Ugly.

[blind pew]

Anyone one remember the upper cylinder lubricant?
Had a mini countryman that after about an hour thrashing her would slow to around 50 mph. Stop at the side of the road, open the bonnet, take off the air filter and give a long squirt into the carb.
Closed everything up, jumped back in and opened her up.
Immediately would attain the dizzy heights of 70+ mph but would leave a smoke screen behind!
Looked in my rear view mirror one day to find the Waggon and horses had disappeared!

[cockney steve]

A.B. Sorry to have upset your sensitivities,- I guess you would be mortified to hear yourself referred to as a Limey? Nickname rascist? -really???

As an aside, I came from Clacton, Essex, originally, but as far as the Locals are concerned, I.m a southerner and therefore a Cockney...Should I drop it from my screen-name and climb on the outrage-bus? maybe seek compensation for the psychological damage this misapprehension has caused me over the last 38 years?
Aerosols MAY have been invented a long time previously,but they weren't seen in mainstream consumer-products until ,possibly, the late 50's.
I remember telling schoolmates that the "Yanks " (that ok? ) had beer in CANS and each case had a FREE metal can-piercer in it..I took a can and opener into school, to prove it!
We had a detatched place, spare rooms and a good relationship with a group of lads from Weathersfield who would stay for a weekend's carousing with their "wives" :}

back on thread...Redex, Yes! i had a large cylindrical glass dispenser with a plunger-pump atop and a delivery-hose...one "shot" per gallon of fuel...no wonder they needed decokes every 10,ooo back then and a full overhaul at 30K.
Adapted the dispenser to pressure-spray Waxoyl and it was last used to coat the innards of a 172's wings and other tight spots.....after "cooking" in the spraybooth, about 80% poured back out for re-use!

BRADEX- AFAIK, still in business....the product was ether-based and called "Ezy-Start"....many a driver was reluctant to use it, because the engine would become "addicted" and only spring into life with it's application.

A gentle whiff was all that was needed, too much and it'd knock like hell whilst the revs went ballistic! (also known to break rings.)

[tommoutrie]

If you spray it into a .22 air pellet and then put that in a crappy old BSA air rifle and pull the trigger there is a huge bang and the wheezy old air gun becomes a useful tool for actually shooting things...

(..I found out as a 14 year old with a squirrel fixation..)

(Bradex not redex obviously)

[Agaricus bisporus]

Steve, if you can't tell the difference between nicknames and offensive names you're a sad case. Carry on, you seem well practised at it.:ugh:

[bubbers44]

In 1962 when I was majoring in electronics electron flow was negative to positive and still is. Before that there were two flows considered. AC vs DC are different of course. Direct current comes from a battery or charger, alternating current powers your house or comes from an inverter in an airplane.

[pulse1]

Ah Redex! Reminds me of my 14 year old friend suggesting to his dad, who was struggling with an engine problem, that he should put some Durex in it. Got a very funny look.

[blind pew]

You are well off the track and suggest that you google cockney rhyming slang.
Being from Sarfend wiv cockney connections Septic comes from Septic tank rhymes wiv Yank.
Similarly horse means tart (& cart)
Apples means stairs.
and good old Bob is a Yank singer and golfer :ok:
Nowt to do with racist - perhaps you should look up your history as I believe that there were a lot of British religious groups and deportees that founded your brave land.

[DozyWannabe]

Put more bluntly - as long as we accept "Limey" with good humour, I don't think "Septic" is really any more offensive...

[SStreeter]

< I never realised that Wipac was part of Lucas >

I don't think they were. This link suggests that they are still going strong under that name:
About Wipac - Wipac (http://www.wipac.com/about-wipac.aspx)

[Agaricus bisporus]

Er - I think most people know that calling someone a name related to fruit is somewhat different to a name related to sewage.

I respectfully suggest that if you were to call, say, an African or an Asian race "Sewage" - short for for Sewage Farm - a direct equivalent to calling someone a septic tank - on the basis of some fanciful connection to a "rhyme" you would find yourself correctly and rightly buried in all kinds of trouble - for being nastily racist. So why/how is it OK to call Americans that? Is it becoz they is white?

Does not compute.

Anyway, racism apart septic is a thoroughly nasty and offensive term, you wouldn't dare to use it to an American's face would you? It is grossly unpleasant and thus not acceptable by any normal standards of manners or decency.

[bubbers44]

As an American I accept septic as a normal way of disposing of waste. Not offensive at all. Now the Florida Keys has a brand new sewer system so septic systems are gone. Two years ago that was the only way to dispose of waste. We had the same system on our farm growing up. Why do people get so up tight about nothing? My polish roomate knew every polish joke and loved to tell them. Learn to laugh at yourself, it makes you healthier.

[DozyWannabe]

Anyway, racism apart septic is a thoroughly nasty and offensive term, you wouldn't dare to use it to an American's face would you?

Can and have - only in the age-old context of expressing affection between male friends by using insults though. I wouldn't use it to a stranger, just as I wouldn't call a stranger a :mad:er, :mad:pot, :mad:hole or :mad:nozzle! ;)

Rhyming slang can bite you if you get into the etymology though - A lot of people use "berk" thinking it's fairly innocuous, I hear kids use it and as a kid I even heard teachers use it on occasion. I doubt that'd be the case if it were more widely known that "berk" is a contraction of "Berkeley Hunt"... :}

[blind pew]

Perhaps you would prefer another rhyming slang
Thick as a ....
Just going for a ....
Or maybe you just don't understand semantics?

[ACW599]

Speaking with an electronic systems designers' hat on, the idea of spraying WD-40 around electrics willy-nilly doesn't strike me as wholly wise. As the MSDS makes clear, WD-40 is nothing more than a mixture of white spirit and mineral oil. Neither is particularly good for either the galvanic properties of conductors or the long-term insulation properties of many plastics. Quite where WD-40 acquired its stellar reputation is a mystery.

If you want to disperse water and keep condensation out of an engine bay, a silicon/PTFE spray will do the job effectively. If you want to clean low-voltage or low-current connectors, propanol and a toothbrush works well.

[syseng68k]

If you want to disperse water and keep condensation out of an engine bay, a silicon/PTFE spray will do the job effectively. If you want to clean low-voltage or low-current connectors, propanol and a toothbrush works well.
WD40 is petroleum based, so rots rubber and is also inflammable.

While I still have a can or two, my preference is also silicon spray. The
cheapest way to buy it is to look for "Silicon Mold Release Agent". Basically,
silicon grease in an aerosol.. Fixes the old style distributor caps for good and
also prevents electrolytic corrosion in multipin auto connectors...

[syseng68k]

cockney steve, #44:

@syseng. You' Sir, are a true masochist. trying to stop the noise of an Alfa rusting, whilst struggling to make the engine run with that wonderful brown MM bakelite distributor cap which had built -in tracking.(the earlier form of theft-prevention which pinched the term.)

Well, everyone knew that the bodywork came free with Alfas, but where else
could could you buy a car with twin cam alloy engine, twin Weber carbs,
5 speed gearbox, limited slip diff and properly located axles for a few hundred
pounds ?. Yes, they all needed work, but the performance made it worthwhile and
provided forced education in the gentle art of mechanics :O...

[kilomikedelta]

Ah, the gentle art of mechanics. It should be a qualification for certification for every mechanical engineer to disassemble an engine down to each bolt and piston ring and rebuild it to hum (I've done a few) as it should be for every computer engineer to rebuild a wonky motherboard (and debug a peripheral driver) and every physician to be a hospital patient (been there too). One can't be a real engineer or physician without experiencing the practice of one's profession. Unfortunately, management MBA's are only trained by case studies of the latest corporate wheeze (most of which went bankrupt five years later) and can only relate to the sizzle and not the steak (viz. the latest verbiage from Boeing PR).

[Uplinker]

WD40 is petroleum based, so rots rubber and is also inflammable.

While I still have a can or two, my preference is also silicon spray. The
cheapest way to buy it is to look for "Silicon Mold Release Agent". Basically,
silicon grease in an aerosol.. Fixes the old style distributor caps for good and
also prevents electrolytic corrosion in multipin auto connectors...

Thanks for the info, syseng. (Pedant alert: I know you mean flammable). I have sprayed WD40 all over the car engine bay for the last couple of winters and the results are great. The rubber looks new and shows no sign of perishing. Or am I suddenly going to be stranded by the roadside one night?

I have always wondered how spraying silicon etc onto electrical connections makes them work. Apart from driving off water, one would expect it to cause bad connections by it's insulating properties? (and I speak as an erstwhile electronics engineer).

[kilomikedelta]

Uplinker: The OED accepts inflammable and flammable as equivalent. Pedant alert: the OED (Oxford English Dictionary) tries to keep English speakers communicating efficiently. The in- prefix of inflammable means supporting. A monolayer of silicone on electrical contacts would only be an insulator for microvolt potential differences.

[Chu Chu]

I once saw a toggle switch burn up not long after someone decided to lubricate it with silicone spray. I've always figured the cause was resistance from silicone on the contacts. But I could, of course, be wrong.

[deptrai]

if anyone is experiencing problems with Lucas electrics (they are actually A/C, with a random frequency), you may need this replacement part

http://www.mez.co.uk/smoke2.jpg

" Lucas Replacement Wiring Harness Smoke kit, P/N 530433, along with the very rare Churchill Tool 18G548BS adapter tube and metering valve. "

this one was for sale on eBay, but these original service kits are hard to find

[syseng68k]

I have always wondered how spraying silicon etc onto electrical connections
makes them work. Apart from driving off water, one would expect it to cause
bad connections by it's insulating properties? (and I speak as an erstwhile
electronics engineer).
Auto connectors are usually not the best quality and have tin plated
contacts. They also often carry significant current and have voltage
drop across the contacts, so it only takes a little moisture to produce
electrolytic corrosion and the "white powder effect". The contacts slide
on mate and there's pressure between the surfaces. A thin film of silicon
spray forms a bubble around the mating surfaces, while at the same time
being easily penetrated by contact pressure to form a good contact.
Modern autos typically have dozens of connectors, many of which are
exposed and even if they are rubber sealed, this perishes over time to
let the damp in.

I tend to keep my cars for years, even decades, so I perhaps see more
of this sort of problem than others...

[Uplinker]

I've spent years cleaning electrical contacts with various products, and have always wondered that.

I also keep my cars for too long and know about the problems of which you speak. :rolleyes:

Thanks kilo, that must have changed then, because it used to mean the opposite - or was that an urban myth? (Like I said I did issue a 'pedant alert' !!)

[FlightlessParrot]

Inflammable.
The problem is that the prefix in- has two origins. One is Germanic, and intensifies the meaning of the compound; the other derives from a Latin prefix in-, which negatives the meaning of the compound. Normally, people know which is which by context.

AFAIK, the original word was "inflammable" with intensifying in-. But, of course, some people took the wrong meaning, so the word "flammable" was invented, for labelling purposes. For me, the word is "inflammable" in normal usage (as in "highly inflammable" or "an inflammable personality"), but I'd for sure put "flammable" on a bottle of solvent.

P.S., the true pedants will notice that I have somewhat simplified the in- thing; and also that "flammable" did exist in the 1800s, but was rare until its adoption on elf and safety grounds.

[compressor stall]

Habitable and inhabitable follow the same logic.

[DozyWannabe]

WD40 is petroleum based, so rots rubber and is also inflammable.

Which is why I only ever use it on connectors with plastic housing (and inside the distributor cap). I use regular switch cleaner on rubber connectors, seal with insulating tape and put Vaseline on the tape.

That said, I think in more modern vehicles the "rubber" on things like HT leads etc. is actually synthetic.

[syseng68k]

Ah, the gentle art of mechanics. It should be a qualification for certification for every
mechanical engineer to disassemble an engine...
Something like that might have been the case in the old days, when there was more
stress on the practical, rather than abstracting the whole process off into some cad
package or other. Not that i'm against cad, just the oppposite, but how do trainee
engineers get the practical experience these days ?. Working with hand and machine
tools should be part of the process and there's nothing like hands on working with
metal to get an instinctive understanding of it's characteristics and limits. You can't
get that from cad packages and "design rule sets" are by nature generic and not
necessarily optimum...

If you are similar age, then our generation cut our teeth on motorcycles, often fixing
by the roadside, before somehow getting cheap mot failure cars fixed and through
the mot. So many people these days seem so completely devoid of clue w/respect
to anything mechanical and would rather pay garages 50-100 ukp / hour, for the
most trivial of faults.

Starting to sound like grumpy old sod, but what happened to scientific curiosity,
the right stuff and pursuit of excellence for it's own sake ?. Just one more pointer to
the general decline and fall of Western civilisation :sad:...

[Uplinker]

I agree with you Chris,

I never cease to be amazed when I see a car with a flat on the side of the road, and instead of the guy changing the wheel, he is standing there clueless and calling someone on his phone.


Same goes for gals too by the way - everyone should know how to change a wheel. Unless she's nice looking, in which case I might stop and help.....

[syseng68k]

Just found my copy of Fowlers, 1990, which has an entry for inflame:

"...Has been displaced by inflammable, from French or Latin.
<snipped>
...It must have been a supposed ambiguity in inflammable that led to the coining of
the word flammable, but that could only make things worse and flammable is now
rare, usually in the compound non-flammable"...

[syseng68k]

Uplinker, #99

As if one needed any excuse to help a damsel in distress, even if they are expected
to understand the basics these days :).

As for garages, the classic case for me was a colleague at work who had an inoperative
side light. He took it to the dealer across the road, who said "Thankyou very much,
sir" and charged him 35 ukp to change the bulb.

No wonder that some garages have such an iffy reputation...

[cockney steve]

Agreed that sounds scandalous....now add up the overheads for the mechanic, plus his hourly rate, plus a profit-margin....you're lucky if you get 30 minutes labour on that- fine, if it's a hand under the bonnet, twist and withdraw..change bulb, replace and twist, drop bonnet....then you have to drive round to reception remove seat and steering-wheel covers.......

remind us, how much does a pilot get paid, divided into how many actual revenue-raising flying-with -a- paying -cargo hours????;)
not getting at you, but been there, done that.
Saturday was NO booked-jobs day. reserved for customers paying bills, booking work in/getting quotes/advice (free!) and a constant stream of "canyewjust"ers

"can yew just tell me how to...."
"can yew just fit a sidelight bulb" (and the P.O.D's lampholder would be rusted/poor earth/broken spring- but somehow I'VE sabotaged it for the sake of a 20p bulb!)

"canyew just listen to my engine and tellme...."

took to saying "No problem....can YOU just put a couple of quid in one of those charity -boxes" many turned away, the charities had a good draw every six months or so :)
A wise person pointed out that I could work indefinitely for nowt, but if i valued my time, others would also!...I stopped feeling guilty for not disseminating my knowledge for nothing.

[syseng68k]

cockney steve, #102:

Agreed that sounds scandalous....now add up the overheads for the mechanic,
plus his hourly rate, plus a profit-margin....you're lucky if you get 30
minutes labour on that- fine, if it's a hand under the bonnet, twist and
withdraw..change bulb, replace and twist, drop bonnet....then you have to
drive round to reception remove seat and steering-wheel covers.......
Yes, I know they have a living to earn, the rent, rates, tools, diags
equipment, wages etc means they have to charge for everything. It was the
main dealer for the brand and a half way decent mechanic could have changed
that in 5 minutes and charged 10 ukp for the good will. What goes around
comes around and it's better to be in credit with the karma, or whatever
you like to call it. In modern garages, they often don't let you speak to
a mechanic. Everything has to go through the process, it costs money to
prepare an invoice and it's not worth doing that for less than increments
of 1/2 hour minimum. I've worked freelance for decades so do understand,
but that was just a bad example and from what i've heard, not that uncommon.

A wise person pointed out that I could work indefinitely for nowt, but if i
valued my time, others would also!... I stopped feeling guilty for not
disseminating my knowledge for nothing.
In a world where everything has a price, few put value on anything that's
free, but i've been fortunate in gaining a lot of varied knowledge over
the years at others expense, so there is some responsibility to put
some of that back in the pot for nowt.

They say you can take the man out of Yorkshire etc :)...

[blind pew]

Steve the pilot professon has always been full of skinflints...
Had a multitude of skippers who have had horses douvres, steak and desert then equally divided the bill after the girls have had just a salad.
"flogged" my book to an ex Dublin based FR TRE who now flies out in the sand pit (100grand plus tax free) - asked him for less than the printing cost - fumbled about in his purse then said he would pop back with the correct money taking said book with him...still waiting and that was a month ago ;-)
Then there was the owner of a commercial flying school who had a free copy...asked me for a second free one as someone had nicked it....
Seems the more money some get the more they want to hang on to it!