New Medal for Drone Pilots

[Robert Cooper]

Not sure what to think about this report in the Marine Corps Times:

The Pentagon is creating a new high-level military medal that will recognize drone pilots and, in a controversial twist, giving it added clout by placing it above some traditional combat valor medals in the military’s “order of precedence.”
The Distinguished Warfare Medal will be awarded to pilots of unmanned aircraft, offensive cyber war experts or others who are directly involved in combat operations but who are not physically in theater and facing the physical risks that warfare historically entails.
It will rank just below the Distinguished Flying Cross.

Bob C :(

[500N]

Interesting. Should stir up some debate.

I was reading about the Space Medal of honour yesterday which
although a civilian award can be worn by the military - after all
other military awards.

[NutLoose]

What is brave about sitting in an armchair miles from the action, my first thought is might as well give one to the home based Blanket stackers as well, after all everyone contributes..

Combat or staying with an aircraft etc to steer it clear of an area or bringing it back to base damaged I can understand, you're putting yourself at risk in doing it, sitting at a desk the only concern is knocking your coffee over.

It sort if makes the gallantry awards a laughing stock if it ranks higher than those for actual in theater combat.

[Robert Cooper]

It's causing some comment over here because it will have precedence over — and be worn on a uniform above — the Bronze Star with Valor device, a medal awarded to troops for specific heroic acts performed under fire in combat.

Bob C

[Surplus]

It sort if makes the gallantry awards a laughing stock if it ranks higher than those for actual in theater combat. and as such will fully warrant the wearer of the 'Drone' medal having the p#ss mercilessly ripped from them.

[SASless]

The Bronze Star can be awarded for a number of reasons. The Medal will be awarded with a "V" Device for Heroism.

The Bronze Star Medal may be awarded to individuals who, while serving in any capacity with the Armed Forces of the United States in a combat theater, distinguish themselves by heroism, outstanding achievement, or by meritorious service not involving aerial flight.

So....a guy sat on his ass in a nice comfy chair, in an Air Conditioned room, with proper Toilet facilities, good food, living at home with his family in Las Vegas, can get a "combat" award that ranks above the Bronze Star awarded for Heroism under hostile fire, awarded to a guy who sleeps in his sweat stained clothes in the open, after humping up mountains in the middle of the summer, drinking putrid water, eating MRE's for months, and being gone from home for nine months or more having been shot at, mortared, attacked by RPG's, IEDs, and Suicide Bombers.

Now that is what I call.....a dirty rotten typical Air Force PC ****ty deal!

[5 Forward 6 Back]

Arguments aside, though, how do people feel the undoubted contribution to ops made by drone crews should be recognized?

Right now, tanker crews flying over theatre are awarded campaign medals despite having virtually no risk to themselves. I'd argue that a Reaper crew, firing weapons, taking out high-level enemies, and saving lives on a daily basis are contributing more to ops than a single daily VC10/Tristar AAR serial. Shouldn't they get some form of recognition?

It's arguably the first modern military role that can have incredible effect without commensurate risk. What award do you give to a drone crew who perform an incredibly challenging, difficult attack that saves dozens of lives and demonstrates a huge level of skill while simultaneously eliminating an important target? There have been situations involving aircrew who've been awarded the DFC for important events that didn't necessarily require incredible amounts of bravery (didn't the first crew to fire a Storm Shadow in anger get one?), so is it time for an award that recognizes a event that doesn't involve personal risk?

[Surplus]

so is it time for an award that recognizes a event that doesn't involve personal risk? We have such an event fortnightly on a Thursday in our mob, it's called payday.

Doing your job well should not qualify someone for a medal that ranks above bravery awards.

If such an award is necessary, the award of a 'campaign type' medal would be sufficient, with a bar or rosette to denote the fact that there wearer was not 'in country'.

Right now, tanker crews flying over theatre are awarded campaign medals despite having virtually no risk to themselves.(My BOLD)

Virtually no risk is different to absolutely no risk, it also depends where those tankers take off from as to the amount of risk the crews face during their deployment.

Virtually no risk becomes a lot more real if SA18 is in country.

[Lima Juliet]

Whilst I agree that the order above that of some bravery awards is a bit odd, I also believe there is something more to this than "blanket stackers at home supporting ops".

If you fly an armed RPAS or UAV then you will most likely have to exercise 'courageous restraint' (ie. not take a shot when a troop on the ground is screaming for it because the enemy is next to a bus full of 40 school kids) and have to make decisions that could take lives, save lives and then have to live with the consequences. You could argue that this alone is more desrving than flying a relatively benign sortie in the rear areas in a tanker or ISTAR aircraft where there is little threat from the ground or hostile aircraft.

Furthermore, the guys and girls that fly RPAS or UAV become legitimate targets on home soil in a combat situation. I'm pretty sure that AQ or other enemy forces would love to 'slot' an RPAS driver on their way to work, in the NAAFI / Commisary or when doing other stuff in uniform.

At present our very own REAPER UOR crews do not get AFG Campaign Medals - I think this is wrong. They are flying daily missions in support of ISAF and making life or death decisions, sometimes taking lives to save others and then having to live with the stress of these decisions (watching the effects of their decisions in graphic detail on a high res EO/IR sensor and listening to the screams of combatants in the background on the radio). Surely some of that deserves so,e sort of recognition?

LJ

[5 Forward 6 Back]

I guess some people have decided that campaign effect should rank above some bravery awards to an extent.

What about the likes of tanker crews, who never set foot on the ground in theatre but fly above it? Should we have different grades of campaign medal to differentiate between those who faced the enemy, those who were in country, and those who weren't? Right now, the RAF reckon a Reaper crew's contribution to Op HERRICK ranks below that of a clerk in the Kandahar post room.

Having worked with them, I think they deserve more. And if you can get a DFC for shooting a Storm Shadow in almost complete safety, why shouldn't a drone crew who do something complex that saves a friendly platoon from dying get a similarly graded award?

[Surplus]

LJ,

If you fly an armed RPAS or UAV then you will most likely have to exercise 'courageous restraint' The guys flying the things have a set of ROE's and a chain of command that gives firing permission. If they get told to fire and the ROEs are met, the weapon is off the rail.

If you exercise 'courageous restraint' and fail to comply with the firing order, when the ROEs are met, then life would become very interesting, very quickly.

5F6B,

The guy or gal in the post room at Kandahar is still subjected to IDF, I agree that firing a Storm Shadow should not warrant a bravery type medal.

As for different types of campaign medals, absolutely!! My South Atlantic Medal has a rosette on it to show I was south of 70S during the war. The boys and girls who were at Ascension Island got the same medal but with no rosette. Is that divisive? Or does it just denote the level of risk that each person was subjected to?

[lj101]

Right now, tanker crews flying over theatre are awarded campaign medals despite having virtually no risk to themselves. I'd argue that a Reaper crew, firing weapons, taking out high-level enemies, and saving lives on a daily basis are contributing more to ops than a single daily VC10/Tristar AAR serial. Shouldn't they get some form of recognition?

I was amused by this comment, clearly you have no idea where the tankers were operating during the various conflicts they've been involved in over the years. I agree risk is low, we were more likely to have an air to air collision than be hit by enemy fire (or friendly forces missiles) but generally we were a few hundred miles closer to the the action than the F3. So where does that put your point of view?

[5 Forward 6 Back]

Lj101, it doesn't really change my point of view. Should the campaign medal reflect the degree of contribution to the op, as I've suggested and as Surplus has explained regarding his SA medal, or should it be purely awarded for "being there?"

If you flew a tanker closer to "action" than an F3, do you think you should have a different award? Similarly, do you think a single VC10 in theatre every day contributes more than the entire RAF Reaper force, or do you think (as LJ and I do) that they should certainly be considered to have earned campaign medals?

[finestkind]

Awarding a medal that is placed above a bravery award when the recipient is in no more danger than clerk back in country, well you may as well hand out awards for everyone that is any way associated with doing anything in the military. Recognition I can understand. Where it is placed would be ridiculous if above a medal that has the recipient at some risk of personal danger. Based on this any ship that launches a cruise missile should have all on board receive a bravery award.

They are flying daily missions in support of ISAF and making life or death decisions, sometimes taking lives to save others and then having to live with the stress of these decisions (watching the effects of their decisions in graphic detail on a high res EO/IR sensor and listening to the screams of combatants in the background on the radio). Surely some of that deserves so,e sort of recognition?


Just like the kids playing video games. I cannot see the parallel with a) seeing the body parts and smell of the guy you just blew away, b) picking up the body parts of your mate c) seeing the carnage after a battle etc to that of being far removed from the action and watching it on a screen

[ZH875]

I have watched a few Telly programs on Afghanistan,I could have fallen off my chair but would have made every effort to make a restrained effort not to land on the dog.

Does this rank equally to sitting on a comfy chair watching TV pictures of Afghanistan in Creech.

Do they get a purple heart if they break their pencils?

[lj101]

5 forward

I've never been that interested in 'medals' and so its a bit of a mute point ref scale of recognition. It's nice to have them for the family but my interest level in recognition of having 'being there' is low.

In Incirlik, Americans would fly with us as passengers into Northern Iraq because they earned a medal (and not the NATO one) for flying into enemy territory. :confused:

[LateArmLive]

e:
The guys flying the things have a set of ROE's and a chain of command that gives firing permission. If they get told to fire and the ROEs are met, the weapon is off the rail.
No, wrong, absolutely not and still No. You clearly have no idea what you are talking about.

Absolutely agree with Backwards PLT- I have been in this situation on many occasions and there is nobody who can convince me that what I did was incorrect. Nobody has ever tried either.

As for UAV drivers getting medals, why not? I can think of plenty of manned FW CAS pilots that got DFCs for providing the same service a Reaper driver can provide.

I believe that our Reaper drivers should all the get the Campaign medal (I thought they did, or is that just the crews that launch and land?) in the same way that every other CAS pilot in theatre gets it.

[barnstormer1968]

I am not and have never been aircrew, but do have a view on this.

I feel that UAS/RVP crews should get campaign medals as they are involved in the campaign and are killing people.

I imaging they see exactly what they are doing, and taking of life while at in a comfy chair (I see no connection at all to computer games here at all) could well take a huge mental toll at some point.

In my previous role I can only say that the 'it's him or me' scenarios have left no lasting effect on me, whereas the 'its going to be him, because that's my job' situations have had a much greater effect on me.

Many of us would be happy to batter an intruder into our homes who intend to do us harm, but how many of us would be happy to wander up to someone who could not hurt us, and then give them a good beating?

So, campaign medals, yes. Perhaps an achievement medal too of some sort, perhaps similar to a MID

[The Helpful Stacker]

You get to see a lot of body parts and the carnage after the battle, often for many hours before and after the act.

There are many people who see such things, indeed as an Auggie Nurse I see a fair bit myself, does this mean I should get a 'gallantry' medal?

Its part of my job. I knew it when I signed on the dotted line.

I agree that folk in Creech should get a medal but should it really be anything other than the same campaign medal everyone else gets, but with a device on it to show it was earned 'out of country'?

[39 Squadron]

I would rather some help for my PTSD that is getting worse over the past 5 years than a F### medal.....:ugh:

[SASless]

"Courageous Restraint"?

Adherence to ROE's in Las Vegas is a damn sight less gallant than when you are getting shot at by Mr. Taliban at close range with RPG's, LMG's, and AK's.

Come on you arm chair heroes.....give us a break.

Give the Drone crews Campaign Medals if you must, Commendation Medals for performance, but don't tell us this latest silly notion should rank above a Bronze Star that must be earned in the combat zone with the attendant personal risk that entails!

In my view the US Air Force Senior Command has once again shot themselves squarely in their own big fat chair borne ass.

[MAD Boom]

"I can deal with the bullets and the bombs and the blood. I don't want money and I don't want medals."

"I'd prefer you just said thank you and went on your way."

Slightly hollywood I know, but I agree with the sentiment (although more money would be nice!)

IMHO , it seems to me that there is not much in the way of a basic 'thank you' in our current system and I for one would prefer that over a gong any day.

But if you want to have a p***ing contest over who should get what, knock yourself out.

[NutLoose]

here you go :)

http://whitehouse.georgewbush.org/iraq/images/armchair-valor-medal.jpg

[Mahogany_Bomber]

I think that there are two seperate issues, whether a medal is appropriate and where it should sit in the order of precedence. The latter in this case is one for our American cousins to debate, the discussion about medallic recognition for those individuals not deployed within the Joint Operations Area is one that has already commenced here in the UK. Sir John Holmes issued his interim report back in Juy 2012 as part of his review of military medals, on this issue he wrote,


"A rather different issue which ... certainly needs to be considered more seriously by the MOD in the future is the changing nature of warfare, for example the question of recognition for those engaged in remote operations, firing cruise missiles or weapons carried by drones. They are not themselves at physical risk but are in highly stressful situations and potentially contributing to major military successes. Similar issues have arisen in the past for those who have made huge contributions to military campaigns but only in supporting or enabling roles, for example in the areas of aerial supply and maritime support, with limited physical presence in the area of operations. Numbers on the front lines in future campaigns may be limited, posing the issue of how to deal with support personnel ever more acutely. Serving personnel are very mindful of these changes to the nature of operations and what it may mean for the opportunities for medals in future."

I'm all for some form of Support to Operations medal, the devil will be in the detail but just as the way we fight wars is changing so should the way in which we recognise those who participate.

MB

[BEagle]

They are not themselves at physical risk but are in highly stressful situations and potentially contributing to major military successes.

Rather like those of us who were part of this country's strategic nuclear force? Was living with the stress of knowing that your primary raison d'être was to fly a single mission to vapourise a large chunk of territory ever adequately recognised?

No idea. We just got on with life.

[SASless]

Stressful job? Oh dear me....absolutely!

As compared to what I might ask?

[Union Jack]

We just got on with life.

Exactly as BEagle says, and as did the V-Force's underwater successors diring the Cold War.

Jack

PS Pehaps the UAS/RVP people should be eligible for the Vegas Cross, also known as the ..... Oh hang on! :O

[BEagle]

Nope - the drone people should be awarded the Distinguished Order of the Dunkin' Donut.

A gilt life-size doughnut neck badge suspended on a DPM ribbon...nice. No doubt a resident :8 can photoshop something suitable?

[NutLoose]

There I was 15,000 feet over Afghanistan all alone, a cold sweat oozed through my flying suit, the damn buildings air conditioning was playing up again.
Far below my aircraft I was tracking a known Taliban leader over hostile territory when I was hit, sharp shards of broken pencil lead hit my chin and splattered across my note pad, phew that was close, real close, scanning the desk I realised it was recoverable, making a mental note to check if I was eligible for the Purple Heart I regained my composure and started my run in, weapons live.....check, coffee percolator on.... check, donut delivery on desk.... check, remember to pick up wife's laundry on way home.. Check....
War was hell but someone had to do it, 5 miles to run and the turbulence hit us hard, I must remember to get them to fix that chair castor I thought as I flew us through the worst of it..
As I flew on my mind raced through the future headlines, Ace Pilot downs Taliban Leader, not for me the Bronze Star or other such inferior medals, but the DFC medal for valour in front of a TV Screen, the possibilities were endless, it was real, I was at war and the smell of it invaded my every pore, that bitter lemony after smell of pledge furniture polish that only one that has been there would know...

;)

[CoffmanStarter]

Nutty ... That's Fifty Shades of Grey stuff :E

[SASless]

Next thing you know.....as there is no greater love than to lay down your lives for a Brother!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXRX47L_3yE&feature=youtube_gdata_player

[langleybaston]

quote:
Arguments aside, though, how do people feel the undoubted contribution to ops made by drone crews should be recognized?

By the Pay Cheque?

Old fashioned?

41 years observing, forecasting, teaching, then running whole clutches of Met for the RAF, uproot family every three years, Cyprus, Guetersloh, JHQ twice, Leeming, Topcliffe, Church Fenton, Finningley, Wyton, Brize, not a problem, just pay me at the end of the month like everyone else.

Would have really liked an ISO or OBE but I think that was swapped for a 6 year tour as CMetO BFG.

Fair deal as far as I was concerned.

It is really worrying if our allies are barking mad over gongs for armchair warriors ....... every flier that I issued a forecast to took a greater risk!

[iRaven]

What I fail to understand is why people want to draw a line between unmanned and manned when dealing with weapons delivery.

If I'm sitting at 20,000ft and spiking an LGB to target on a TV screen in my cockpit via the targetting pod - what's the difference whether I sit in a FJ or in a cabin 4,000 miles away?

If I fire an AMRAAM at a target 35 miles away that I'm heading towards and tracking on RADAR (well outside of visual range) and I only see a fireball some 15 miles away when the target blows up - what's the difference?

What has more direct effect in a campaign, a Predator firing a Hellfire successfully against a Taliban leader or a manned C-130 delivering freight into Bastion or KAF - one is supporting the campaign and one is providing direct campaign effect?

The British Army get this right in declaring "Combat Arm" (which are the likes of the Infantry or AAC) and then "Combat Support" (which are the likes of REME or Int Corps) - although I know declaring the Royal Artillery as "Combat Support" causes some upset. If the RAF were to do the same then I would suggest it would be the following:

Combat Arm
FJ (ie. Typhoon, Tornado, Hawk)
Armed RPAS (ie. Reaper)
Armed RW (ie. Chinook, Puma, Merlin)

Support Arm
AT (ie. C130, C17, Voyager, A400M, Tristar, A-109, HS125, BAe 146)
AAR (ie. VC10, Tristar, Voyager)
ISTAR (ie. E-3D, RJ, Sentinel, Shadow)
SAR (ie. Sea King)
Training (ie. Hawk, Squirrel, Tucano, Tutor)

The list above does not exhaust all types but gives the idea.

As for campaign medals for RPAS driving - Yes :ok:

As for bravery medals for RPAS driving - No :=

As for QCVSA for RPAS driving - Yes :ok:

As for Green Endorsements for RPAS driving - Yes :ok:

As for AFCs (for "an act or acts of valour, courage or devotion to duty whilst flying, though not in active operations against the enemy") - why not? :ok:

As for DFCs (for "an act or acts of valour, courage or devotion to duty whilst flying in active operations against the enemy") - why not? :ok:

I really can't see why the above is all that difficult...:ugh:

iRaven

[BEagle]

If I'm sitting at 20,000ft and spiking an LGB to target on a TV screen in my cockpit via the targetting pod - what's the difference whether I sit in a FJ or in a cabin 4,000 miles away?



You really don't know?

[iRaven]

BEagle

With my ~1800hrs of Tornado flying and other types as well (on Ops including Balkans/Iraq/Afg), no, unless they are shooting at me with a SAM or an AAM, I cannot see the difference.

So do please enlighten me why I might correct my point of view...

iRaven :hmm:

[LateArmLive]

I'm with iRaven 100% on this one. Leave the has-beens to their irrelevant opinions ;)

Having said that, I never want to drive a UAV!

[Easy Street]

Leaping back a whole page or so, I just wanted to leap to the defence of the guys who got a DFC on the first Storm Shadow mission. That was carried out in the first day or 2 of Op TELIC / IRAQI FREEDOM / whatever you want to call it, while the Iraqis still had an air defence system worthy of the name. They also had to go into the defended area to launch the missiles, so it was not an 'unopposed' shot.

Sorry, back to the thread!

Combat Arm
Armed RW (ie. Chinook, Puma, Merlin)
Those RW are only armed for self defence - you don't send any of them out to act as attack platforms in themselves, so I would call them Support Arm. Virtually all Army Support Arm assets have some form of armament.

As for AFCs (for "an act or acts of valour, courage or devotion to duty whilst flying, though not in active operations against the enemy") - why not? http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

As for DFCs (for "an act or acts of valour, courage or devotion to duty whilst flying in active operations against the enemy") - why not? http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

Don't trust Wikipedia... the definitions listed on the MOD Medal Office (https://www.gov.uk/medals-campaigns-descriptions-and-eligibility#distinguished-flying-cross) website are:

AFC - in recognition of exemplary gallantry in the air on non-active operations.

DFC - in recognition of exemplary gallantry during active operations against the enemy in the air.

Both of these definitions require the recipient to have put his / her a*rse on the line, rather than on a comfy chair!

I agree with the principle of clasp-less campaign medals for UAV operators on the basis that they are taking a direct part in military action (which clerks, etc, outside theatre are not). However the medal should certainly not rank above any gallantry medals - I'm having a hard time imagining how the USAF argued that one...

[finestkind]

Going back a page.

B/Stormer1968

Got your point but do slightly disagree.

Many of us would be happy to batter an intruder into our homes who intend to do us harm, but how many of us would be happy to wander up to someone who could not hurt us, and then give them a good beating?
What you are suggesting here is that the UAV's are hitting innocent targets. If I knew the chap in the street was going to do harm to mine and I could take him out before he did I would.

iRaven

With my ~1800hrs of Tornado flying and other types as well (on Ops including Balkans/Iraq/Afg), no, unless they are shooting at me with a SAM or an AAM, I cannot see the difference.

That's exactly the point. While involved in operations is there a chance. no matter how slight, that you could end up at a tea party with the folks on the ground, then there is a difference.


As for the comment on targeting drivers that would include all from the actual airborne variety to the arm chair ones or do you think the baddies will say nah let him go he is only a tornado pilot we want UAV drivers.

[Ivan Rogov]

A Reaper posting is at the top of my preferences and from friends operating the platform it really does sound like a satisfying job that makes a difference.............however there are many jobs in the forces and outside that do the same, SAR, emergency services, support roles, etc. They don't get medals for doing their day job, and nor should they.
The qualifying criteria for campaign medals will always capture differing levels of risk and hardship, some of the petty examples stated in this thread show spectacular ignorance of what other fleets were actually doing.

Most medals are just shiny bits of metal given out to make us forget that it was rubbish out there, or distract us from the fact that someone had to go above and beyond because someone else screwed up. (In no way am I trying to suggest any of the recipients didn't deserve their medal :ok:)

Looking at some posts in this thread you would think selflessness and a sense of duty were a thing of the past, luckily I know many who are not Mutleys they do not judge others by how many gongs they have or don't have :D

People take more risk on training exercises than an RPAS crew in a GCS unless you’re counting thrombosis or the risk of choking, what next a medal for CCS? Volunteer for the LRE if you want something shiny to show off :ugh:

[iRaven]

All

Fair point on the wikipedia quotes - that will learn me!

However, I have seen with my own eyes CH-47s using a minigun to take out bad people according to ROE...not in self defence.

As for the going to a 'Tea Party' - there is, I suggest, just as much chance in the current Afg op for an RPAS driver to be picked up by some nutters on the way to/from work and then having their head hacked off with their b@lls shoved in their gob!

Give them a campaign gong, with an Afghan clasp, and open your minds.

IMHO, of course...:ok:

iRaven

[Onceapilot]

Think anyone who mocks the efforts of their comrades in a shooting wars have got their standards out of line!
Medals are always a hot potato. Most of us might feel there are unfair awards and criteria. I do, and I have also known friends killed in wars where they never even "earned" the gong.
Lets have less sh1t slinging. At least most awards are hard earned.

OAP

[NutLoose]

Quote:
If I'm sitting at 20,000ft and spiking an LGB to target on a TV screen in my cockpit via the targetting pod - what's the difference whether I sit in a FJ or in a cabin 4,000 miles away?


Because in theatre you are putting your life on the line, be it from SAM or aircraft failure where having departed the aircraft you will rapidly find yourself in the bad guys backyard. That and not all missions are flown at 20,000ft. You are not putting yourself in harms way plain and simple, I cannot believe you can not see that sitting on your ass in a shed in Vegas is far from some Marine fighting on the ground earning his Bronze Star.... To be awarded a higher award is a mockery of the whole system.
Campaign medals, I could see one with a rosette or similar to denote not in theatre, but then you would have to award that to everyone involved, from the bathroom attendant down, as they all are involved in generating the end product are they not. Sitting on the couch flying a screen being just one part of the operation.

As for the going to a 'Tea Party' - there is, I suggest, just as much chance in the current Afg op for an RPAS driver to be picked up by some nutters on the way to/from work and then having their head hacked off with their b@lls shoved in their gob!

Then in that context, you need to award a medal to every school kid in the USA as they seem to have a higher chance of getting shot at their place of study than you do. Or users of the London Underground, open top buses, US Airliners, or high rise buildings.. You can get a nutter have a go at any blanket stacker in any country, simply because they wear a uniform.

[Lima Juliet]

The difference is Nutty that the "blanket stacker" outside Afghanistan hasn't killed loads of insurgents and high-order terrorists, so they're unlikely to be targets; unmanned aircraft crews have and must surely be a highly prized target by these insurgents. There is no doubt that armed unmanned aircraft have given the Allies an assymetric advantage and the only options open to the insurgents are:

1. Take out the unmanned aircraft whilst on or near to the ground - they try that on an almost daily basis and fail.

2. Take out the satellite datalinks - this needs a lot of power when the aircraft has a high-gain directional antenna pointing away from the ground (that's 20,000ft away) and points directly at the satellite (40+dB gain upwards versus <3dB gain downwards - you do the maths!).

3. Take out the people that fly them - never been successful, but this really is their best option. But they would need to round up a lot to have an effect.

Or their last option is to go to the negotiating table...:hmm:

LJ

[SASless]

Nutty,

An Army flight school classmate of mine had been a Tail Gunner on B-52's during the early part of the Vietnam War. He recounted missions from Guam to Vietnam and return....putting down his magazine to watch the explosions of the bombs to see if perhaps they got a secondary explosion....then going back to his reading. He freely admitted his Air Medals were got under false pretense as the only risk he faced was dying of boredom.

That changed when the boys went downtown but raids over South Vietnam might as well have been flying for FedEx or UPS.....except for the method of delivery.

Not all that long later....we were flying helicopters in Vietnam....and other places we did not go to....and our Air Medals took a bit more earning than his first ones did.

Dropping into a hot LZ amidst the green tracers from .51 cal MG's, watching the RPG's headed your way from the trellises....and hearing the reports and seeing the muzzle flashes of the Ak's and RPD's banging away at you....waiting out the Mortar rounds and artillery could be a bit sporty. Even then....all that beats hell out of being in the infantry and having to deal with the little rascals nose to nose. They definitely have my respect.

Sorting out the standard for the Gongs is a bit hard as perception plays a big role in assessing the risk.

I think the real angst over the USAF's Drone Gong is that it ranks above the Bronze Star.....and as a result the guys who have faced some risk in Theater rightly feel a bit put upon by that.

No one denies the Drone guys deserve recognition as they do a very good job and are very professional....but they are not putting their necks on the line or enduring any hardships while they go about their work.

[Ivan Rogov]

So if you get a medal for this hypothetical 'I might be a more tempting target' theory then should every squaddie that could deploy or return from Ops get one, as there was a real plot to get one of them?

The IRA operated in mainland UK and Europe and targeted many servicemen regardless of their roles, should everyone get a medal for being in the Forces?

What about all the individuals who were top of the Spetsnaz hit list if the Cold War got hot? There were some surprising individuals singled out as essential and therefore a target such as the special weapons armourers.

I'm sorry but I find that this does nothing for the credibility of the RPAS operators, there are many others in the Forces who could imagine a plot against themselves Apache, SF, anyone who gets papped, senior ranks, people using public transport, travelling in uniform, etc.

Medals for everyone?

[Lima Juliet]

Ivan

All I'm saying is that someone who flies armed unmanned aircraft in a counter-insurgency might be more of a target by enemy forces than someone who "stacks blankets". Jeeez, is that so difficult to understand? :ugh:

I'm not saying "medals for everyone" but I believe that the UK's REAPER UOR crews have contributed lots to the present counter-insurgency operation in Afghanistan and have not even been recognised through the issue of campaign medal that they have lived, breathed, slept and provided kinetic support for over most of their 3 year tour.

Crystal?

LJ

[wiggy]

Dear Sirs

In the last decade, like many of my civil airline colleagues, I have spent many hours over Afghanistan, in person, in the flesh, being told that on pain of death I shall not descend below below FLXXX and that on certain days I must offset XX left/right of track, or else, and that ultimately if I lose an engine/lose pressurisation I'm down amongst them and I'm on my own....

Can I have a medal?

(yeah, I know, absurd isn't it and not a chance - but does the fact I go to Vegas on a fairly regular basis help..)

[NutLoose]

All I'm saying is that someone who flies armed unmanned aircraft in a counter-insurgency might be more of a target by enemy forces than someone who "stacks blankets". Jeeez, is that so difficult to understand?


You're assuming that the are walking around bragging about it, otherwise you have a hell of a lot of folks in Vegas to take out to hit one. That said, an active unit of any squadron rotating back home out of theater are in exactly the same boat. As are any wounded ex service personnel that earned the respect.

A campaign medal with an appropriate emblem signifying not in theater I can understand, a medal higher than a Bronze Star I cannot and sorry I will not, it devalues those that have done great deeds at the risk of their own lives under combat conditions to below that of an armchair spectator safely ensconced in a safe environment thousands of miles from harm.

Turns the previously hallowed DFC into Didn't Fly Combat or Desk Flying Collegue awards..


The difference is Nutty that the "blanket stacker" outside Afghanistan hasn't killed loads of insurgents and high-order terrorists, so they're unlikely to be targets; unmanned aircraft crews have and must surely be a highly prized target by these insurgents

So what are you saying, points mean prizes, reminds me of Vietnam where success was measured by supposed kill statistics, didn't help in the end and like this war it failed miserably in its goal.

[finestkind]

I joined up and guess what I did what I joined to do.

Now if that meant being involved on operations which than meant receiving a Campaign Medal great. That was to be recognised for having served in that campaign but again doing what I joined to do. To receive recognition for anything else I would have had to do something that was more than what I joined up to do. For the Americans a Purple Heart for being wounded (killed etc) in action. As much as that was a possibility I don’t think anyone joins up to be wounded or killed.

You join/become a UAV operator that’s what you do. You join up, become a pilot that’s what you do. You join up and become a grunt that’s what you do. To be awarded a medal you need to do something more than you joined up to do.

[BEagle]

If I'm sitting at 20,000ft and spiking an LGB to target on a TV screen in my cockpit via the targetting pod - what's the difference whether I sit in a FJ or in a cabin 4,000 miles away?

Because in theatre you are putting your life on the line, be it from SAM or aircraft failure where having departed the aircraft you will rapidly find yourself in the bad guys backyard. That and not all missions are flown at 20,000ft. You are not putting yourself in harms way plain and simple, I cannot believe you can not see that sitting on your ass in a shed in Vegas is far from some Marine fighting on the ground earning his Bronze Star.... To be awarded a higher award is a mockery of the whole system.

Precisely so. That was my point, so rudely rebuffed by LateArmLive....:rolleyes:

I doubt whether the chum I lost, when his Tornado failed to return from Iraq in GW1, would consider that someone sitting comfortably in a Nevada tin box operating a drone from thousands of miles behind the lines faced anything like the same hazard as the one which killed him and his pilot.

[LateArmLive]

NutLoose. I don't think you'll find anyone on this forum agreeing that the UAV medal should rank higher than a Bronze Star. I'm sure most of us will agree that a campaign medal (without clasp) is appropriate for those that have directly saved friendly lives/killed bad guys albeit from many miles away.

There is definitely a strong resistance (mostly from the older generation - not just singling you out BEagle, apologies if I came across as rude) to any kind of recognition for UAV operators. Maybe it's a sign of the times, and we that are still involved in HERRICK and other Ops around the globe recognise the huge change in modern warfare/COIN and the value brought by UAVs.

Just to clarify - nobody here is really suggesting UAV operators deserve a medal for facing risk or bravery.

BEagle - apologies again for coming across as rude - I misinterpreted your post.

[BEagle]

Apologies accepted, mate.

A specific campaign medal without clasp would certainly be appropriate for drone operators.

Certainly more so than the one given to certain recipients after GW1....:hmm: 30 days contiinuous service in Cyprus after 2 Aug 90 hardly merits a medal, in my view, for bravely risking sunburn.

[Union Jack]

Certainly more so than the one given to certain recipients after GW1....http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/yeees.gif 30 days continuous service in Cyprus after 2 Aug 90 hardly merits a medal, in my view, for bravely risking sunburn.

Sounds more like Purple Heart territory, if the UK had such an award, but only for those who were genuinely sunburned of course ......:)

Jack

[SASless]

Fine,

As the Member of the Order of the Purple Heart.....I can assure you that is an award for someone else's achievement. One's own actions might present the opportunity but it takes some cooperation on the part of the bad guys to get it done. Without that help and assistance (except for perhaps John Kerry maybe) you just are not going to get the Purple Heart.

I know I certainly had no desire to bag one for myself and always thought it I would only be witness to others unsuccessful avoidance of that award. As in a lot of things in my life....I was wrong.

I will say....of all the Gongs, medals, ribbons, and badges I accumulated over the years....I treasure that one the most. It reminds me of what I and others like me risk while performing our Duty. Mine was a "minor" award which I am eternally grateful as I know so many others were not as fortunate.

It must be a terrible trade.....a Flag and a Purple Heart Medal....for a Loved One. That is why I see that Purple Heart as being in a class of its own as it means so much to the families of those we lose.

[Nugget90]

The question has been raised as to how best to differentiate between those who risk their necks over a set period of time in a war zone or hostile theatre, and those who perform essential duties in support and endure some risk albeit less than the former.

Australia had an answer to this following the conflict in Vietnam. In brief terms, any member of the Australian Armed Forces who spent 30 days in that theatre could lay claim to the Vietnam Medal. Others, such as RAAF and civilian pilots who flew troops and casualties into and out of Saigon and adjacent airfields, RAN personnel patrolling the waterways off the coast, etc. could claim the Vietnam Logistic and Support Medal.

The shape and design of both medals was the same, but the former had a more ornate supporter than the latter, and the ribbons displayed different colours and patterns either side of the yellow and red of the South Vietnamese flag that formed the centrepiece of both.

Thus the contribution of those who supported the action was not ignored and their exposure to risk was recognised. Those who were awarded the Vietnam Medal could not also claim the Vietnam Logistic and Support Medal.

It could be that a similar approach might be taken if the UK decides that those who contribute to the action but not by being on the ground deserve recognition in some form but not in a way that equates fully with the level of risk experienced by those who serve in theatre for a specified period.

[Mil-26Man]

From Jane's. Some interesting comment...


Jane's Defence Weekly

US DoD creates new medal for UAV operators


Copyright © IHS Global Limited, 2013


US DoD creates new medal for UAV operators

Record Infohide
Publication:Jane's Defence Weekly
Author:Gareth Jennings, London
Section:AMERICAS, THE
Country: United States

Last posted:2013-02-15
Images:1 image (https://janes.ihs.com/CustomPages/Janes/DisplayPage.aspx?DocType=News&ItemId=+++1542264&Pubabbrev=JDW#blockImage)

The US Department of Defense (DoD) has created a new service medal for personnel "physically removed from the fight", it was announced on 13 February.
The Distinguished Warfare Medal (DWM), which sits above the Bronze Star but below the Distinguished Flying Cross (DFC) in order of merit, is aimed at operators of unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) who perform "extraordinary actions that make a true difference in combat operations … regardless of their distance to the traditional combat theatre", a DoD statement read.
According to the Pentagon, the DWM would be awarded when "the member's actions have resulted in an accomplishment so exceptional and outstanding as to clearly set the individual apart from comrades or from other persons in similar situations". Awards may be made retrospectively back to 11 September 2001.
In setting out the criteria by which the medal could be awarded, the DoD emphasised that it did not cover acts of valour.

COMMENT
The creation of the DWM is a further indication of the growing status of UAVs and their operators within the US military structure. Indeed, in 2009 the US Air Force (USAF) announced that for the first time it had more UAV operators passing through its training pipeline than pilots of manned platforms, and the DWM is an acknowledgment that these personnel warrant recognition for the work they do.
While some, particularly pilots of manned aircraft, will balk at the suggestion that UAV operators might be awarded medals while being exposed to the same levels of danger as most civilians (in fact, spoof citations of "heroic Predator drones" have already appeared in the media, mocking the announcement of the new medal), the DoD has made it clear that this is not what the DWM is about.
With UAVs being used more and more in today's combat theatres, many would argue that some means of recognising the largely unheralded work of their operators is long overdue. A case in point as to how this work has gone unrecognised until now was in the effort to eliminate Abu Musab al-Zarqawi in 2006. Al-Zarqawi, the leader of Al-Qaeda in Iraq at the time, was understood to have been tracked by Predator UAVs for weeks leading up to the moment when an F-16 fighter dropped a 500 lb bomb on the house he was holed up in, killing him. While the F-16 pilot who dropped the bomb was later awarded the DFC for his actions that day, the UAV operators who had made the strike possible received no such recognition. Although few would claim they were in the same physical danger as the F-16 pilot, some official acknowledgement of their involvement in the mission would seem to be only fair.
It is also true that, while UAV operators are not exposed to the physical dangers of combat, they are very much exposed to some of the psychological dangers and to some effects that are peculiar to their situation as combatants far removed from the battlefield. A Predator or Reaper operator would typically commute to work in the morning, fly an eight-hour mission, during which he or she may be directly involved in the killing of people, and then drive back to the family home to pick up the routine of domestic life. Unlike pilots deployed to theatre, they do not have the sense of being on operations and do not have the support network that comes with being involved in a shared experience. In addition, they are acutely aware that their profession is looked down on by many of their service peers who regard being an 'aviator' as a calling and the only profession of any real worth (within the air force at least).
As such, anecdotal evidence suggests that UAV operators can experience more stress and anxiety than do pilots of manned platforms, so any measure that can be taken to help increase their sense of value to the wider air force community, including the creation of the DWM, can only be welcome.

https://janes.ihs.com/ExternalItems/Janes/images/mags/jdw/jdw2013/data/images/s1423756.jpg (https://janes.ihs.com/ExternalItems/Janes/images/mags/jdw/jdw2013/data/images/p1423756.jpg)1423756Operators of UAVs such as the MQ-9 Reaper pictured are now eligible to receive the Distinguished Warfare Medal for "extraordinary actions that make a true difference in combat operations" dating back to 11 September 2001. (General Atomics)

[Hoots]

A whole can of worms to be opened up I think. During Ellamy those supporting ops in Italy, such as 2MT who did a great job, received campaign medals as reported in the raf news, as did many ground crew. So why not reaper guys, and going back further why not former Yugoslavia campaign medals for nimrod guys for that one. Campaign medals are one thing, obviously gallantry medals are way above and beyond that. I'm not fussed as long as there is consistency, which at the moment there is not.

[walter kennedy]

What is the difference between using an armed drone and a remotely detonated car bomb where there is a possibility of "collateral" damage?
How can you honour the dishonourable?
I recall the words of a sergeant major in 10 Para: "If you are not prepared to fight a war with clubs, then don't fight the war" - a question of cause and commitment, I think.

[L J R]

Walter,

What is the difference between using an armed drone and a remotely detonated car bomb where there is a possibility of "collateral" damage?

...Because the Armed RPAS has the same CAS 9-line and delivery accuracy as an F-15E. 'Collateral' is not the sole home of RPAS. I might even say that the communication with multiple agencies, and the 'reach-back' immediately available to the RPAS Pilot is far superior that the fast jet mate...(and I have been both!), which reduces opportunities for CDE fails.

[Easy Street]

:ugh:..........

[Charlie Luncher]

Maybe this has more to do with Senior US Air Staff Officers needing a gong to get their star?:E
I have upmost respect for the lads taking heavy rain and dealing with life on the ground, as I do for the ones staring at a screen for long hours to PID the dude hiding in a cave who only pokes his head out long enough for a hellfire, it was a good shot and I still have the video I took.
What we wear on our chest is irrelevant, it is what we did for our brothers and their respect that means something. Knuckleheads may not got the last point as it is not about them!!!!:eek::D
Charlie sends
From low enough to get shot at high enough not to smell pongoes.:8

[recce_FAC]

Am interesting topic however a few points If I may. Lots of chat about RAF /39 SQN. Im sure they are sat back in Creech crinching whilst watching this topic. Its the USAF UAV crews not the RAF MQ9 guyes that this ''medal'' is being awarded to. 39 Sqn have without a shadow of a doubt done more to support the Army/Marines on the ground in Helmand than any other A/C in our inventory (in the kinetic sense of course, sorry chinook dudes). I'm all for them get a campaign medal and I'm actually disappointed that they dont all ready. Every time I have controlled them they have been outstanding. The fact that they knock off shift and have the ability to head down the strip for a few ''jager bombs'' is just a perk of the job. Beats heading outside the camp gates to the Indian Casino.;)

[tick vee gee]

recce_FAC,

I am quite sure the ONLY recognition the guys and girls at Creech value is yours and that of your colleagues who they support. Thank you for taking the time to post.

[Lima Juliet]

^^^^Tick VG - I wholeheartedly agree. I witnessed some incredibly professional acts from the 39 Sqn Team during my time 'on the beach' in 2008. Bravo :D:D

[Thomas coupling]

I suppose its the yanks way of suppressing their troops yet again. If it moves and salutes - give it a blue peter badge. Keeps them happy.
Nothing more embarrassing than seeing yanks in uniform absolutely dripping in badges and spaghetti only to find they turned up for work on time and were smartly dressed.
The real heroes out there - the bronze/silver/purple stars, the DFC's, et al, must be absolutely hopping mad. And did the guy who thought this up, ever talk to the real heroes for advice?
Campaign medal - of course, no question. Anything else... a bit of overtime perhaps:*
I've heard it all now - armchair X box 360 nerds winning medals....God help America.

[JustT]

Easy Street

You highlighted that the crew that received DFCs for StormShadow operations on Night One of Op TELIC were in the threat zone but you did underplay their actions somewhat.

With RHWR indications of a SAM locked on they performed a defensive manoeuvre including "punching-off" the tanks but retaining the weapons. Having sucessfully defended themselves they reassessed their situation; they now had enough fuel to RTB but insufficent to reach the launch point and still make it back to their operating base. A quick assesment of options identified an alternative base they could land at post weapon release for a splash and dash. They pressed to the launch point, got the weapons off on time and then diverted. The fact that this crew was instrumental in the training of all the crews that operated with StormShadow from AAS and, in the days leading up to Night One, were the first RAF crew to fly with a live round probably also helped in their being recognised with a well deserved award.

A painting of the Nav now hangs in the Student Ante Room at College Hall.

[Wrathmonk]

JustT

and then diverted

Curious as to which airfield they diverted to as there wasn't much available on Day 1 - Iraq bases were still in 'enemy' hands, Saudi was considered a no-no for combat aircraft (unless you wanted to sit (with your jet) on the sidelines for a time [far longer than a 'splash and dash' and I don't recall this crew doing that]) and everything else was 'south' or as close to AAS to make no difference.

Certainly in the first week or two I don't recall any crews diverting from AAS (plenty came in from further south [normally 'winchester' and testing the accuracy of the fuel gauges]) and even the Goldstars QWI-crew managed to tank in time (just) - although there wasn't a divert option for them;)

Of course, 11 years down the line and memories blur, so please do put me right!

[NutLoose]

#66 (permalink)
Thomas coupling

Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 2,287
I suppose its the yanks way of suppressing their troops yet again. If it moves and salutes - give it a blue peter badge. Keeps them happy.
Nothing more embarrassing than seeing yanks in uniform absolutely dripping in badges and spaghetti only to find they turned up for work on time and were smartly dressed.
The real heroes out there - the bronze/silver/purple stars, the DFC's, et al, must be absolutely hopping mad. And did the guy who thought this up, ever talk to the real heroes for advice?
Campaign medal - of course, no question. Anything else... a bit of overtime perhaps
I've heard it all now - armchair X box 360 nerds winning medals....God help America.


He probably realised it fast tracked him to one as well, campaign medal aside that denotes not in theater, you are correct in what you say, and that is the crux of the matter.

[BEagle]

I've heard it all now - armchair X box 360 nerds winning medals....God help America.

I do think that's going a bit far, mon brave......:=

[brickhistory]

This a politically-motivated medal promulgated by the civilian, i.e., political leadership of the DoD. And another in a long line of such items. This administration thinks that remote warfare is the way of the future and those that conduct it - without getting killed themselves and causing awkward moments for those politicians - are to be rewarded.

There already are (too many) medals for doing one's job or for being there for a set amount of time - higher rank needing less time - but the thought of this being set higher than a Bronze Star with 'V' is disgusting. But this is for more than UAV crews, it encompasses cyber-operators as well.

And yes, the U.S. (and we who wear them know it) awards far too medals so that we look like Qaddafi-wanna-be's.

[Pontius Navigator]

Brick, I asked the question before but SASLess chose not to answer.

Can you actually read all those medals on someone's chest?

As an aside, when we had exchange officers on the sqn they tended not to wear medals.

[reynoldsno1]

Some US medals were explained to me by a USAF Lt. Col once upon a time. I do remember that he had a "medal" that showed he used to be an enlisted man i.e. commissioned from the ranks, and also a 'sharpshooter' or 'marksman' "medal". Seems that a lot of them are actually proficiency badges.

[brickhistory]

I can read USAF and the DoD ones. Some Navy and Army ones escape me as I'm not that familiar with the specific service medals and ribbons (ribbons signify medals and for specific accomplishments, like expert marksman as noted, or for a short ((1 yr)) or long ((2 or more yrs) overseas that aren't medals.)

Enlisted who later commission can wear medals/ribbons earned in that status as those are for all the individual's accomplishments and/or service. Same as those who switch from one service to another.

I believe most US personnel with any experience glaze over the medals/ribbons as many are "I was there" and we all know it.

Seeing a DFC or higher, or a 'V' on a medal that has that designator is an entirely different matter.

[bakseetblatherer]

Before you make an opinion on this medal, I think you need to see what goes on behind the scenes...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lF1mx-Dcek8

[500N]

Brick

Agree with your summary.


Although some will put more emphasis on have the rifle and pistol "E" medals.

Where would you put Legion of Merit ?
It doesn't seem to be handed out to everyone ?

[Scuttled]

What a lot of extremely offensive, ill educated and ignorant posts on this thread.

On topic, I agree with the general consensus that no such medal should rank higher than that given for an act of valor under fire. I think that's a given.

Why this topic should turn into a general bashing of men and women doing an effective and well regarded job by the plain ignorant and those with an out dated Cold War mind set is beyond me.

This is too close to the Bomber Command bashing by pacifists with glorious hindsight that has gone on for decades now for my liking, although I'm sure some of the people who have posted unnecessary bile on here would disagree.

BZ 39 and XIII, although I hope none of you are reading this crap.

[Scuttled]

PS

But the video was excellent! Anything and everything should be up for clever satire.

[NutLoose]

Pontius, they're explained here


Awards and decorations of the United States military - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Awards_and_decorations_of_the_United_States_military)

[Pontius Navigator]

NL, thank you.

The US also places much store on 'personality' of the month etc with photos etc. It extends to US firms in other countries too such as McDonalds (I think). It is not always accepted as seriously however. In Geilenkirchen, in billeting I think it was, there was a room with framed photos of employee (or whatever) of the month around the room. Each and everyone was of the same Lieutenant, female naturally, so I think someone was having a joke.

[cowhorse]

You can put a medal on it, you can use Orwellian doublespeak, but it's still a war crime.

[NutLoose]

It amazes me you can get a medal in the US military for being a POW.

[Scuttled]

Cowhorse

More detail required fella?

[cowhorse]

Sure - if you kill someone (anyone - a 'bin Laden', some children, some adults, doesn't matter) without judicial process, and then pull an excuse out of your ass, why you do not need a judicial process (as Obama administration did), well, that alone qualifies as a war crime - USA did not declare war on Yemen or Pakistan. And we do not even have to go into double tap strikes, ratio of killed civilian vs 'terrorist', breach of international law by killing citizens of another country in their own country etc.

And last: why is everyone quiet when you ask them, what will happen when other countries will have their own definition of what a terrorist is and will refer to the same 'logic' as USA?

[downsizer]

It amazes me you can get a medal in the US military for being a POW.

Why? If I was getting bummed constantly a medal wouldn't go amiss...

[The Helpful Stacker]

If I was getting bummed constantly a medal wouldn't go amiss...

No medal for being bummed constantly, will this do instead?

http://www.mycollectors.co.uk/images/panel-photos/Naval-Cap-Badge.jpg


On a more serious note, during a pre-deployment CAC lecture before popping of to some sandy place I remember the scary guy from Hereford doing the talking mentioning that after capture there is the possibility we could be raped, to which a couple of lads at the back chuckled. "Don't know why you lads are laughing" he said, " the Iraqis are more likely to rape you than females...."

Chuckling stopped....

[NutLoose]

I just thought it Ironic, the USA would give you a Medal, one could imagine the UK response, sitting in a POW camp you get a Telegram from the MOD

Please advise time of capture, pay and allowances stopped.... Stop.

[Union Jack]

Please advise time of capture, pay and allowances stopped.... Stop.

Stop right there, NutLoose! Whilst very sadly, and to my mind very wrongly, Merchant Navy prisoners were indeed treated in this way, with effect from the date of their capture, but I suspect a little research will confirm that Service POWs were paid on their return, albeit less a deduction for board and lodging whilst captive.

Jack

[NutLoose]

Why? If taken prisoner your pay and allowances are stopped until you are released when it is then paid to you, fine, but that does not put food on the table for the wife and say two kiddies at home or service the mortgage, it's alright then backdating their wages, but one wonders about the mortgage interest etc that has built up in the meantime, along with interest on loans etc, the fact appears to be if you become a POW In the UK, it can seriously damage your assets and credit rating..
At least the USA continues to pay their troops while they are POW's, odd we do not do similar for those known to be prisoners.

[Courtney Mil]

Common practice. Whe Titanic sank, the crew's pay was immediately stopped as they were no longer performing the duties for which they were paid.:sad:

[StopStart]

Riveting stuff as usual. :hmm:

Anyway, back to the serious stuff. A recruiting video for my mates out in Creech :ok:

lF1mx-Dcek8

[Union Jack]

Some views from Veterans of Foreign Wars:

VFW Wants New Medal Ranked Lower | Military.com (http://www.military.com/daily-news/2013/02/14/vfw-wants-new-medal-ranked-lower.html?ESRC=navy-a.nl) plus a quote from ARRSE:

You Couldn't Make It Up

It would appear that our US colleagues have decided to reward the contributions of drones to modern conflict by awarding their operators a new type of medal (http://arrse.us1.list-manage.com/track/click?u=ae7a0160c2f817b1c506d3a56&id=68817c543a&e=b3a40a7ddb). It can surely only be a matter of time before the RAF follow suit (http://arrse.us1.list-manage1.com/track/click?u=ae7a0160c2f817b1c506d3a56&id=ef9cd5e452&e=b3a40a7ddb).

Jack

[StopStart]

Um. Really? Try post 1 page 1 of this thread. The title is something of a give away too... :rolleyes:

[Union Jack]

Um. Really?

Yes, really. :ok:

Dear oh double dear! Educational standards in the light blue must have dropped pretty markedly - I have to wonder what part of "plus a quote from ARSSE ," complete with a colon leading into it, doesn't StopStart understand.

For the avoidance of doubt, and having followed this thread from the start, I was merely quoting the two links which I received by email this forenoon.

The title is something of a give away too... :rolleyes:

So is Post No 28 .....:=

Jack

[bakseetblatherer]

Um Really?

Yes I posted that same vid about 17 posts prior to yours :rolleyes:

;)

[StopStart]

Touché, bsb, touché :}

Thanks for the educational pointers UJ. No longer "light blue" though.
In future perhaps you could try using the quote function so quotes are little more obvious?

Referring to me in the third person is a little pantomime-esque though.

He's behind you :hmm:


Anyway, enough of this badinage, back to the cut and thrust of Pprune dribble.

[Polikarpov]

Drone Pilots Are Found to Get Stress Disorders Much as Those in Combat Do

Full article: New York Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/23/us/drone-pilots-found-to-get-stress-disorders-much-as-those-in-combat-do.html?_r=0)

In the first study of its kind, researchers with the Defense Department have found that pilots of drone aircraft experience mental health problems like depression, anxiety and post-traumatic stress at the same rate as pilots of manned aircraft who are deployed to Iraq or Afghanistan.

The study affirms a growing body of research finding health hazards even for those piloting machines from bases far from actual combat zones.

“Though it might be thousands of miles from the battlefield, this work still involves tough stressors and has tough consequences for those crews,” said Peter W. Singer, a scholar at the Brookings Institution who has written extensively about drones. He was not involved in the new research.

That study, by the Armed Forces Health Surveillance Center, which analyzes health trends among military personnel, did not try to explain the sources of mental health problems among drone pilots.

But Air Force officials and independent experts have suggested several potential causes, among them witnessing combat violence on live video feeds, working in isolation or under inflexible shift hours, juggling the simultaneous demands of home life with combat operations and dealing with intense stress because of crew shortages.

“Remotely piloted aircraft pilots may stare at the same piece of ground for days,” said Jean Lin Otto, an epidemiologist who was a co-author of the study. “They witness the carnage. Manned aircraft pilots don’t do that. They get out of there as soon as possible.”

[cbaker501]

I don't know how I come down on this argument... I don't feel like I deserve an opinion, or a voice... I'm not a veteran, merely the daughter and sister of some. But, I do think, if my dad were alive today, he might ask the question that other veterans are asking... good questions:

So, what exactly defines courage? what defines sacrifice?

Is the possibility of damage to the mind equal to the damage to the body?
I think we do have to answer the question this soldier asks,

"what about that guy that 'doesn't take the shot when a troop on the ground is screaming for it because the enemy is next to a bus full of 40 school kids." ?

Personally, I don't have a point of reference for defining bravery in battle. I wonder how much courage it takes to sacrifice yourself to save another human being. I've heard people who have been declared "heros" and/or given medals play down their actions, because they felt it was innate... "we're hard-wired for it" or "just doin' the job I was trained to do." , almost instinctively... or is it learned? I don't know. I do know this... like the guy above mentioned... it must take a lot of courage to "not take a shot" and risk the life of the soldiers screaming for our back-up.

I can't imagine... how do we define that courage? ... the on-going courage it would take to live a lifetime with the repercussions, self-doubt (not to mention the doubting of those around you that you serve with)... sometimes, I wonder if giving up a leg, or an arm might be easier - would it be easier to use a prosthesis? at least your mind can be still.

It's a toughie... and I'm still undecided. It's a bigger issue than most discussions I've read about it. I do believe that damage to the soul/mind [PTSD] is a real thing - unseen to those around the ones who suffer from it. I think I'd take a bullet any day, or give up a leg, before having to go down a recovery road of PTSD, because most don't make it and the stigma grows larger and heavier if we don't talk about the guy that "didn't take the shot," and the equally horrific damage done, or courage it required. Everyone's pain is different, as are choices and the repurcussions... and courage is also an individual thing... how exactly do we recognize an individual accomplishment within a truly team action as in the military and fighting for right? I don't know.

[Thomas coupling]

CBaker: cool, dude, Pass the hash and tell me some more babes.....wow.

And the message is.......................................................:yu k:

Let me help you along somewhat. NOTHING compares to battlefield stress. Nothing does it for you than the smell of fear, the smell of 'cold blood'. The thought that any second now your life will get snuffed out.
When these guys get rewarded for actions above the call of duty...they don't brag, they don't talk because the medal is almost an embarresment. The damage can manifest itself mentally or physically.

Now let's apply all of the above to drone operators.

Case dismissed............................

[Robert Cooper]

It appears that Congress has finally got into the act, and moved yesterday to prevent the Defense Department from establishing the Distinguished Warfare Medal for drone operators as an award that ranks higher than the Bronze Star for valor or the Purple Heart. The bill, H.R. 833, tells the Defense Department how to set the precedence of medals. There has been much criticism from the American Legion and the Veterans of Foreign Wars over the ranking of the new medal.

Bob C

[500N]

Robert

You need to pass a bill through Congress for that ?

Can't someone just say (ie the Pres) to the Sec of Def,
"this is wrong, it needs changing, discuss where it should
sit and come back with some recommendations and we'll
make a decision."

Good to see it sorted.

[Robert Cooper]

I guess the problem is that the conversation you suggest was not taking place. The Administration and Defense Secretary were letting it slide.

Bob C

[500N]

Robert

Thanks, understand.

[NutLoose]

Being Vegas I was pondering over the award

You could have different variations

DCW with bar bar bar
DCW with bar bar cherry
DCW with lemon bell orange

Sorry, glad to see sense has prevailed.

:rolleyes:

[Thomas coupling]

Thank God for common sense. Thanks RC.:D

[Easy Street]

Formally binned by SecDef on Tuesday, perhaps not forever, but can't see it coming in much above the 'Flying over Northern Ireland' medal...

Joint Chiefs Chairman Gen. Martin E. Dempsey was told he has 30 days to re-evaluate every aspect of the bad idea — from the name of the medal to its order of precedence — and report back with a recommendation. The medal was torpedoed before anyone could be nominated to receive one.

EDITORIAL: Good riddance to a medal - Washington Times (http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/mar/13/good-riddance-to-a-medal/)

[Robert Cooper]

It was Leon Panetta's idea, supported by Obama. Glad to see the new Sec Def is scrapping the thing.

Bob C

[havoc]

WASHINGTON — In the face of withering criticism, Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel has canceled the creation of a new military medal for drone and cyber warriors, instead ordering military leaders to develop a special pin or device that would be attached to already existing medals or ribbons.

Hagel's predecessor, Leon Panetta, created the Distinguished Warfare Medal to be awarded to troops such as drone operators and cyber warriors who have a major effect on a military operation but never actually set foot in the combat zone. That decision triggered broad complaints from veterans and lawmakers who said it should not be ranked higher than traditional combat medals such as the Purple Heart and Bronze Star.

On Monday Hagel said that while the department should recognize the extraordinary achievements of those troops, the award should not be a stand-alone medal.

When Panetta announced the medal would be created in mid-February, defense officials said it would be considered a bit higher in ranking than the Bronze Star and the Purple Heart, but lower than the Silver Star. But the Veterans of Foreign Wars and other groups sent a letter to President Barack Obama in March, asking him to keep the medal ranked below the Purple Heart, which is awarded for combat injuries. Critics said the ranking was an injustice to those troops who risked their lives in battle.

Last month, under orders from Hagel, the military stopped production of the medal and top defense and military leaders began a new review. Hagel asked Gen. Martin Dempsey, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, to report back to him in 30 days.

Hagel – who was twice awarded the Purple Heart for his service in Vietnam – said that the review concluded that "misconceptions regarding the precedence of the award were distracting from its original purpose."

Senior military leaders who conducted the study recommended the creation of a device, similar to the "V" for valor that can be attached to the Bronze Star and other medals to reward an act of heroism. They have 90 days to finalize details and criteria for the award.

Panetta, in creating the new medal, said it reflected battlefield contributions in a world of changing warfare. He said that remotely piloted aircraft and cyber systems have changed the way that wars are fought and can change the course of a conflict from afar.

In a statement on Monday, Hagel agreed with the idea behind the initial recognition.

"The servicemen and women who operate and support our remotely piloted aircraft, operate in cyber and others are critical to our military's mission of safeguarding the nation," he said.

The American Legion's national commander, James E. Koutz, said Hagel's decision keeps the evolving roles of military combat in proper perspective.

"Cyber and drone warfare have become part of the equation for 21st-century combat, and those who fight such battles with distinction certainly deserve to be recognized," Koutz said in a statement. "But the American Legion still believes there's a fundamental difference between those who fight remotely, or via computer, and those fighting against an enemy who is trying to kill them."

As originally conceived, the blue, red and white-ribboned medal was to be awarded to individuals for "extraordinary achievement" related to a military operation that occurred after Sept. 11, 2001. But it does not require the recipient to risk his or her life to get it.

Over the last decade of war, remotely piloted Predator and Reaper drones have become a critical weapon to gather intelligence and conduct airstrikes against terrorists or insurgents around the world. They have been used extensively on the battlefields in Iraq and Afghanistan, as well as in strikes in Pakistan, Yemen and northern Africa.

Over the same time, cyberattacks have become a growing national security threat, with Panetta and others warning that the next Pearl Harbor could well be a computer-based assault.

The Bronze Star is the fourth-highest combat decoration and rewards meritorious service in battle, while the Silver Star is the third-highest combat award given for bravery. The Purple Heart is ranked just below the Bronze Star.

Several other awards, including the Defense Distinguished Service Medal, are also ranked higher than the Silver Star, but are not awarded for combat.

In addition to veterans' concerns, there is a practical side to the rankings for currently serving troops. There are grades of medals – commendation, merit, distinguished – that affect promotions for those still in uniform. Each grade gives troops a certain number of points needed for promotions.

___

Associated Press writer Donna Cassata contributed to this report.

[SASless]

All that rarified air Panetta breathed on his weekly Tax Payer paid commute to his Nut Ranch in California must have gotten to him.:rolleyes:

[BEagle]

There are grades of medals – commendation, merit, distinguished – that affect promotions for those still in uniform. Each grade gives troops a certain number of points needed for promotions.

Well, that beats being promoted for how well you screwed up the Officers' Mess phone system, or how well you ran the Officers' Wives Flower Club....:rolleyes:

[fawkes]

Actually that is the reason at the heart of the US disproprtionate largesse for medals and awards. In a prmotion system whose purple prose demands that everybody walks on water it is very difficult to distinguish good from average. Points for awards looks like an empirical measure of relative merit but then it creates an "arms race" in which not having an award at a particular career point puts you at such a disadvantage that it becomes essential for commanders to award as many as they can.

That said, our Allies have a very effective culture of reward and recognition
from which we can learn much - not least on promotion. There is nothig wrong with bing proud of people's achievements; I always get the impression that as a nation we are all a bit embarrassed by this sort of things even to the brief presentatin when leaving a unit. We coud do better.

Our quota system for awards may be unfair in another way (at that probaby needs another thread), but at least it has no direct bearing on promotion.
Medals will always be divisive; on the whole somebody will always be inappropriately or arbitrarily included or excluded.

[Wensleydale]

have a major effect on a military operation but never actually set foot in
the combat zone


That will be the movers at Brize then.... It does not say that the effect has to be positive!

[YellaRednGrey]

On a slightly different tack, I witnessed a situation in Kandahar in '09 where a female US Army Capt colleague was written up for a medal by a CW3 (Chief Warrant Officer). He trotted along to the US 1*, who endorsed the recommendation and she was duly presented with that and 2 other gongs prior to heading home. A US Army Major (Reservist), who shared our office, cottoned onto this, asked to copy the recommendation and was stopped just before presenting it himself to the General. He couldn't quite grasp why we thought it might be an idea to substitute 'he' for 'she' and 'him' for 'her' in the script! Once corrected, he did trot along for endorsement and subsequently went home with no less than an extra 5 medals on his chest, not bad for flying a desk! This takes self gratifications to a whole new level, no doubt he'll be a full Colonel by now, grrrr. :*

[US Herk]

That these guys save lives day in and day out is not the argument. That their ability to significantly impact the battlefield is not the question. I think, for most, what rubbed raw the most, was that this proposed medal would be of superior ranking than traditional battlefield medals. The stresses these guys are under are not the same, but they are also not the same as the finance officer sitting in a cubicle in Offut. They see first-hand the effects of weapons either at their disposal, directed by them, or simply monitored by them after others do the dirty work. This is a real stress and one that is difficult to quantify. In the theater of operations, you have, at least, a couple of days to decompress after a challenging situation. These guys go straight home to mom and little Johnny. That has got to present some unique psychological challenges.

All that said, if the ISR world didn't think they received enough recognition, or the current medals didn't do justice to their job, I don't have a huge beef with creating a new medal, but I think it far more reasonable to simply expound on the criteria for the various current medals to give them appropriate recognition. If a new medal was indeed warranted, its placement in the hierarchy would always be contentious...

...just like giving missleers flight jackets or Cheyenne Mountain folks flight suits.

[chippy63]

Off topic a bit, but I read in some military tome that only the recipient of a decoration knew its true worth.