New Medal for Drone Pilots
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New Medal for Drone Pilots
Not sure what to think about this report in the Marine Corps Times:
The Pentagon is creating a new high-level military medal that will recognize drone pilots and, in a controversial twist, giving it added clout by placing it above some traditional combat valor medals in the military’s “order of precedence.”
The Distinguished Warfare Medal will be awarded to pilots of unmanned aircraft, offensive cyber war experts or others who are directly involved in combat operations but who are not physically in theater and facing the physical risks that warfare historically entails.
It will rank just below the Distinguished Flying Cross.
Bob C
The Pentagon is creating a new high-level military medal that will recognize drone pilots and, in a controversial twist, giving it added clout by placing it above some traditional combat valor medals in the military’s “order of precedence.”
The Distinguished Warfare Medal will be awarded to pilots of unmanned aircraft, offensive cyber war experts or others who are directly involved in combat operations but who are not physically in theater and facing the physical risks that warfare historically entails.
It will rank just below the Distinguished Flying Cross.
Bob C
Last edited by Robert Cooper; 14th Feb 2013 at 02:29.
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Interesting. Should stir up some debate.
I was reading about the Space Medal of honour yesterday which
although a civilian award can be worn by the military - after all
other military awards.
I was reading about the Space Medal of honour yesterday which
although a civilian award can be worn by the military - after all
other military awards.
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What is brave about sitting in an armchair miles from the action, my first thought is might as well give one to the home based Blanket stackers as well, after all everyone contributes..
Combat or staying with an aircraft etc to steer it clear of an area or bringing it back to base damaged I can understand, you're putting yourself at risk in doing it, sitting at a desk the only concern is knocking your coffee over.
It sort if makes the gallantry awards a laughing stock if it ranks higher than those for actual in theater combat.
Combat or staying with an aircraft etc to steer it clear of an area or bringing it back to base damaged I can understand, you're putting yourself at risk in doing it, sitting at a desk the only concern is knocking your coffee over.
It sort if makes the gallantry awards a laughing stock if it ranks higher than those for actual in theater combat.
Last edited by NutLoose; 14th Feb 2013 at 02:47.
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It's causing some comment over here because it will have precedence over — and be worn on a uniform above — the Bronze Star with Valor device, a medal awarded to troops for specific heroic acts performed under fire in combat.
Bob C
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It sort if makes the gallantry awards a laughing stock if it ranks higher than those for actual in theater combat.
The Bronze Star can be awarded for a number of reasons. The Medal will be awarded with a "V" Device for Heroism.
So....a guy sat on his ass in a nice comfy chair, in an Air Conditioned room, with proper Toilet facilities, good food, living at home with his family in Las Vegas, can get a "combat" award that ranks above the Bronze Star awarded for Heroism under hostile fire, awarded to a guy who sleeps in his sweat stained clothes in the open, after humping up mountains in the middle of the summer, drinking putrid water, eating MRE's for months, and being gone from home for nine months or more having been shot at, mortared, attacked by RPG's, IEDs, and Suicide Bombers.
Now that is what I call.....a dirty rotten typical Air Force PC ****ty deal!
The Bronze Star Medal may be awarded to individuals who, while serving in any capacity with the Armed Forces of the United States in a combat theater, distinguish themselves by heroism, outstanding achievement, or by meritorious service not involving aerial flight.
Now that is what I call.....a dirty rotten typical Air Force PC ****ty deal!
Last edited by SASless; 14th Feb 2013 at 03:24.
Arguments aside, though, how do people feel the undoubted contribution to ops made by drone crews should be recognized?
Right now, tanker crews flying over theatre are awarded campaign medals despite having virtually no risk to themselves. I'd argue that a Reaper crew, firing weapons, taking out high-level enemies, and saving lives on a daily basis are contributing more to ops than a single daily VC10/Tristar AAR serial. Shouldn't they get some form of recognition?
It's arguably the first modern military role that can have incredible effect without commensurate risk. What award do you give to a drone crew who perform an incredibly challenging, difficult attack that saves dozens of lives and demonstrates a huge level of skill while simultaneously eliminating an important target? There have been situations involving aircrew who've been awarded the DFC for important events that didn't necessarily require incredible amounts of bravery (didn't the first crew to fire a Storm Shadow in anger get one?), so is it time for an award that recognizes a event that doesn't involve personal risk?
Right now, tanker crews flying over theatre are awarded campaign medals despite having virtually no risk to themselves. I'd argue that a Reaper crew, firing weapons, taking out high-level enemies, and saving lives on a daily basis are contributing more to ops than a single daily VC10/Tristar AAR serial. Shouldn't they get some form of recognition?
It's arguably the first modern military role that can have incredible effect without commensurate risk. What award do you give to a drone crew who perform an incredibly challenging, difficult attack that saves dozens of lives and demonstrates a huge level of skill while simultaneously eliminating an important target? There have been situations involving aircrew who've been awarded the DFC for important events that didn't necessarily require incredible amounts of bravery (didn't the first crew to fire a Storm Shadow in anger get one?), so is it time for an award that recognizes a event that doesn't involve personal risk?
Last edited by 5 Forward 6 Back; 14th Feb 2013 at 06:12.
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so is it time for an award that recognizes a event that doesn't involve personal risk?
Doing your job well should not qualify someone for a medal that ranks above bravery awards.
If such an award is necessary, the award of a 'campaign type' medal would be sufficient, with a bar or rosette to denote the fact that there wearer was not 'in country'.
Right now, tanker crews flying over theatre are awarded campaign medals despite having virtually no risk to themselves.
Virtually no risk is different to absolutely no risk, it also depends where those tankers take off from as to the amount of risk the crews face during their deployment.
Virtually no risk becomes a lot more real if SA18 is in country.
Last edited by Surplus; 14th Feb 2013 at 06:24.
Whilst I agree that the order above that of some bravery awards is a bit odd, I also believe there is something more to this than "blanket stackers at home supporting ops".
If you fly an armed RPAS or UAV then you will most likely have to exercise 'courageous restraint' (ie. not take a shot when a troop on the ground is screaming for it because the enemy is next to a bus full of 40 school kids) and have to make decisions that could take lives, save lives and then have to live with the consequences. You could argue that this alone is more desrving than flying a relatively benign sortie in the rear areas in a tanker or ISTAR aircraft where there is little threat from the ground or hostile aircraft.
Furthermore, the guys and girls that fly RPAS or UAV become legitimate targets on home soil in a combat situation. I'm pretty sure that AQ or other enemy forces would love to 'slot' an RPAS driver on their way to work, in the NAAFI / Commisary or when doing other stuff in uniform.
At present our very own REAPER UOR crews do not get AFG Campaign Medals - I think this is wrong. They are flying daily missions in support of ISAF and making life or death decisions, sometimes taking lives to save others and then having to live with the stress of these decisions (watching the effects of their decisions in graphic detail on a high res EO/IR sensor and listening to the screams of combatants in the background on the radio). Surely some of that deserves so,e sort of recognition?
LJ
If you fly an armed RPAS or UAV then you will most likely have to exercise 'courageous restraint' (ie. not take a shot when a troop on the ground is screaming for it because the enemy is next to a bus full of 40 school kids) and have to make decisions that could take lives, save lives and then have to live with the consequences. You could argue that this alone is more desrving than flying a relatively benign sortie in the rear areas in a tanker or ISTAR aircraft where there is little threat from the ground or hostile aircraft.
Furthermore, the guys and girls that fly RPAS or UAV become legitimate targets on home soil in a combat situation. I'm pretty sure that AQ or other enemy forces would love to 'slot' an RPAS driver on their way to work, in the NAAFI / Commisary or when doing other stuff in uniform.
At present our very own REAPER UOR crews do not get AFG Campaign Medals - I think this is wrong. They are flying daily missions in support of ISAF and making life or death decisions, sometimes taking lives to save others and then having to live with the stress of these decisions (watching the effects of their decisions in graphic detail on a high res EO/IR sensor and listening to the screams of combatants in the background on the radio). Surely some of that deserves so,e sort of recognition?
LJ
I guess some people have decided that campaign effect should rank above some bravery awards to an extent.
What about the likes of tanker crews, who never set foot on the ground in theatre but fly above it? Should we have different grades of campaign medal to differentiate between those who faced the enemy, those who were in country, and those who weren't? Right now, the RAF reckon a Reaper crew's contribution to Op HERRICK ranks below that of a clerk in the Kandahar post room.
Having worked with them, I think they deserve more. And if you can get a DFC for shooting a Storm Shadow in almost complete safety, why shouldn't a drone crew who do something complex that saves a friendly platoon from dying get a similarly graded award?
What about the likes of tanker crews, who never set foot on the ground in theatre but fly above it? Should we have different grades of campaign medal to differentiate between those who faced the enemy, those who were in country, and those who weren't? Right now, the RAF reckon a Reaper crew's contribution to Op HERRICK ranks below that of a clerk in the Kandahar post room.
Having worked with them, I think they deserve more. And if you can get a DFC for shooting a Storm Shadow in almost complete safety, why shouldn't a drone crew who do something complex that saves a friendly platoon from dying get a similarly graded award?
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LJ,
The guys flying the things have a set of ROE's and a chain of command that gives firing permission. If they get told to fire and the ROEs are met, the weapon is off the rail.
If you exercise 'courageous restraint' and fail to comply with the firing order, when the ROEs are met, then life would become very interesting, very quickly.
5F6B,
The guy or gal in the post room at Kandahar is still subjected to IDF, I agree that firing a Storm Shadow should not warrant a bravery type medal.
As for different types of campaign medals, absolutely!! My South Atlantic Medal has a rosette on it to show I was south of 70S during the war. The boys and girls who were at Ascension Island got the same medal but with no rosette. Is that divisive? Or does it just denote the level of risk that each person was subjected to?
If you fly an armed RPAS or UAV then you will most likely have to exercise 'courageous restraint'
If you exercise 'courageous restraint' and fail to comply with the firing order, when the ROEs are met, then life would become very interesting, very quickly.
5F6B,
The guy or gal in the post room at Kandahar is still subjected to IDF, I agree that firing a Storm Shadow should not warrant a bravery type medal.
As for different types of campaign medals, absolutely!! My South Atlantic Medal has a rosette on it to show I was south of 70S during the war. The boys and girls who were at Ascension Island got the same medal but with no rosette. Is that divisive? Or does it just denote the level of risk that each person was subjected to?
Last edited by Surplus; 14th Feb 2013 at 06:40.
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Right now, tanker crews flying over theatre are awarded campaign medals despite having virtually no risk to themselves. I'd argue that a Reaper crew, firing weapons, taking out high-level enemies, and saving lives on a daily basis are contributing more to ops than a single daily VC10/Tristar AAR serial. Shouldn't they get some form of recognition?
Last edited by lj101; 14th Feb 2013 at 06:41.
Lj101, it doesn't really change my point of view. Should the campaign medal reflect the degree of contribution to the op, as I've suggested and as Surplus has explained regarding his SA medal, or should it be purely awarded for "being there?"
If you flew a tanker closer to "action" than an F3, do you think you should have a different award? Similarly, do you think a single VC10 in theatre every day contributes more than the entire RAF Reaper force, or do you think (as LJ and I do) that they should certainly be considered to have earned campaign medals?
If you flew a tanker closer to "action" than an F3, do you think you should have a different award? Similarly, do you think a single VC10 in theatre every day contributes more than the entire RAF Reaper force, or do you think (as LJ and I do) that they should certainly be considered to have earned campaign medals?
Awarding a medal that is placed above a bravery award when the recipient is in no more danger than clerk back in country, well you may as well hand out awards for everyone that is any way associated with doing anything in the military. Recognition I can understand. Where it is placed would be ridiculous if above a medal that has the recipient at some risk of personal danger. Based on this any ship that launches a cruise missile should have all on board receive a bravery award.
Just like the kids playing video games. I cannot see the parallel with a) seeing the body parts and smell of the guy you just blew away, b) picking up the body parts of your mate c) seeing the carnage after a battle etc to that of being far removed from the action and watching it on a screen
They are flying daily missions in support of ISAF and making life or death decisions, sometimes taking lives to save others and then having to live with the stress of these decisions (watching the effects of their decisions in graphic detail on a high res EO/IR sensor and listening to the screams of combatants in the background on the radio). Surely some of that deserves so,e sort of recognition?
I have watched a few Telly programs on Afghanistan,I could have fallen off my chair but would have made every effort to make a restrained effort not to land on the dog.
Does this rank equally to sitting on a comfy chair watching TV pictures of Afghanistan in Creech.
Do they get a purple heart if they break their pencils?
Does this rank equally to sitting on a comfy chair watching TV pictures of Afghanistan in Creech.
Do they get a purple heart if they break their pencils?
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I've never been that interested in 'medals' and so its a bit of a mute point ref scale of recognition. It's nice to have them for the family but my interest level in recognition of having 'being there' is low.
In Incirlik, Americans would fly with us as passengers into Northern Iraq because they earned a medal (and not the NATO one) for flying into enemy territory.
I've never been that interested in 'medals' and so its a bit of a mute point ref scale of recognition. It's nice to have them for the family but my interest level in recognition of having 'being there' is low.
In Incirlik, Americans would fly with us as passengers into Northern Iraq because they earned a medal (and not the NATO one) for flying into enemy territory.
e:
The guys flying the things have a set of ROE's and a chain of command that gives firing permission. If they get told to fire and the ROEs are met, the weapon is off the rail.
No, wrong, absolutely not and still No. You clearly have no idea what you are talking about.
The guys flying the things have a set of ROE's and a chain of command that gives firing permission. If they get told to fire and the ROEs are met, the weapon is off the rail.
No, wrong, absolutely not and still No. You clearly have no idea what you are talking about.
As for UAV drivers getting medals, why not? I can think of plenty of manned FW CAS pilots that got DFCs for providing the same service a Reaper driver can provide.
I believe that our Reaper drivers should all the get the Campaign medal (I thought they did, or is that just the crews that launch and land?) in the same way that every other CAS pilot in theatre gets it.
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I am not and have never been aircrew, but do have a view on this.
I feel that UAS/RVP crews should get campaign medals as they are involved in the campaign and are killing people.
I imaging they see exactly what they are doing, and taking of life while at in a comfy chair (I see no connection at all to computer games here at all) could well take a huge mental toll at some point.
In my previous role I can only say that the 'it's him or me' scenarios have left no lasting effect on me, whereas the 'its going to be him, because that's my job' situations have had a much greater effect on me.
Many of us would be happy to batter an intruder into our homes who intend to do us harm, but how many of us would be happy to wander up to someone who could not hurt us, and then give them a good beating?
So, campaign medals, yes. Perhaps an achievement medal too of some sort, perhaps similar to a MID
I feel that UAS/RVP crews should get campaign medals as they are involved in the campaign and are killing people.
I imaging they see exactly what they are doing, and taking of life while at in a comfy chair (I see no connection at all to computer games here at all) could well take a huge mental toll at some point.
In my previous role I can only say that the 'it's him or me' scenarios have left no lasting effect on me, whereas the 'its going to be him, because that's my job' situations have had a much greater effect on me.
Many of us would be happy to batter an intruder into our homes who intend to do us harm, but how many of us would be happy to wander up to someone who could not hurt us, and then give them a good beating?
So, campaign medals, yes. Perhaps an achievement medal too of some sort, perhaps similar to a MID
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You get to see a lot of body parts and the carnage after the battle, often for many hours before and after the act.
Its part of my job. I knew it when I signed on the dotted line.
I agree that folk in Creech should get a medal but should it really be anything other than the same campaign medal everyone else gets, but with a device on it to show it was earned 'out of country'?
