EBCI - CRL, Belgium - closed due to crash

[Birdy767]

A0253/13
From:09 FEB 13 09:05 Till:09 FEB 13 13:00
Text:AD CLSD DUE TO CRASH

[LGW Vulture]

Four dead according to the BBC. :uhoh:

Small Cessna (maybe a Citation of some sort)?

[His dudeness]

Acc. to "Tageblatt.lu" a "sportsplane" and 3 of the 4 victims seem to be kids.


Very sad.

[Arlenof]

flandersnews.be: "At least four killed in Charleroi plane crash" (http://www.deredactie.be/cm/vrtnieuws.english/news/130209_plane_crash)

In french : Crash d'un avion de tourisme à Charleroi: cinq morts dont trois enfants - RTL info (http://www.rtl.be/info/votreregion/hainaut/979451/crash-d-un-avion-de-tourisme-a-charleroi-cinq-morts-dont-trois-enfants)

As I Know its a Cessna 210

[doubleu-anker]

WX didnt look very nice. Contamination of some sort?

[EK380]

Cessna P210 with Turbine conversion. FAA reg N240PW
Grand-dad at the controls, daughter in law with her three kids. 5 fatalities

ASN Aircraft accident 09-FEB-2013 Cessna P210N Pressurised Centurion N240PW (http://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=153183)

RIP to all!

[Groundbased]

BBC reporting Cessna crash at Charleroi Belgium:

BBC News - Fatal plane crash closes Charleroi airport in Belgium (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-21397220)

[justanotherflyer]

Tragic.

While not speculating as to the specific cause(s) of this accident, single-engine (or low-performance twin-engine) takeoff in such marginal conditions is fraught with potential hazard.

[EK380]

Justanotherflyer; yes indeed tragic.

Weather was EBCI 090850Z 21003KT 1800 BR FEW002 M03/M04 Q1019

Few cloud at 200ft with clear above and a vis of 1800m is not exactly too challenging from an actual weather perspective. Even in a turboprop single engine like the Allison P210 involved. Been out there in these conditions in less sofisticated stuff many times.

I just hope the aircraft was clear of snow and frost when it took off... either on wings and tail and/or engine inlet.

RIP to all!

[Johnm]

Justanotherflyer, I regularly fly a light single in IFR minima, take off in 800 metres vis for example. Climbing through a low stratus layer to clear air above and a subsequent flight to the South of France could be routine.

[jcjeant]

Hi,

In RTBF news (Belgian TV) an employee of airport (assisting on boarding and witness of the crash) tell that it was frost (ice) on the plane and the pilot refused the deicing offer !
Also reported that deicing is not mandatory for private aircraft ......
The plane was very low when he returned to the airport .. he never got altitude ..

[mary meagher]

Freezing fog mentioned in the ASN report: not good weather for flying light aircraft, or helicopters, for that matter. Also the newpaper report says that having difficulty on taking off, the aircraft tried to return to the airport, impacting on a grass field just beside the runway.

The question of turning back after engine failure has been recently debated on this forum. Turning back after failure to climb as expected for any reason, without sufficient altitude to accomplish a safe return, has to be a major concern for all pilots. Could have been ice on the wings, poor performance, possible engine problems, low viz, passengers ill, anything.

[jcjeant]

Hi,

The question of turning back after engine failure has been recently debated on this forum. Turning back after failure to climb as expected for any reasonThe area facing the plane (in the direction of take-off) is an area with many homes ....

[A and C]

Ice does not respect any type of aircraft be it on the wings or in the engines.

Small turbines like the Allison/RR 250 have very small compressor intakes that will ice in these conditions if the engine anti-ice is not selected.

If the reports above are correct Ice of some type is a likely suspect at a factor in this accident.

[EK380]

A and C; Fully agree with the size of the small compressor on the Alisson.

Investigation will eventually tell, but I do surely not rule out engine icing. i.e. ice present before take-off...

[justanotherflyer]

EK380, Johnm

Your comments are valid - indeed I've often flown in such conditions. My point however is that if, in a single or low powered twin, you enter cloud at 200 feet and lose power at say 300, then in attempting to re-land straight ahead you are now dicing with disaster. Which is why such contingent performance is not permitted for public transport operations in IFR/IMC.

Private flyers of such aircraft are of course entitled to ignore those restrictions. But by definition, they are reducing their margin of safety. It's for each pilot to decide how much increased risk he/she is comfortable with. Whether it's moral to expose innocent parties to it is another question.

P.s the full Metar was METAR EBCI 090850Z 21003KT 1800 BR FEW002 M03/M04 Q1019 RMK R25/090071 TEMPO 0600 FZFG BKN002=

[Pace]

JustanotherFlyer

I agree that with especially a single there is a danger zone after takeoff in case of an engine failure and that you need reasonable clear air to select a landing spot.
If he was indeed offered deicing which is very expensive (Euro 1000) then he obviously was carrying ice.
Whether he cleared or partially cleared that ice is a question mark but it sounds very much like an iced up takeoff and not weather related accident as such.

[mary meagher]

justanotherflying, you say in your post you have often flown in such conditions?
Was that in a single or a low powered twin? and go on to say that if you land straight ahead you are "dicing with disaster....."

Strikes me that if you turn back you are even more certain to lose control.

I never did understand how to read these fancy codes for met conditions, but if you make a habit of flying in icing conditions in poor viz, I don't think I would like to be one of your passengers.

[Pace]

Mary

As one who has flown in all conditions some which I would not like to admit too :E In singles twins and above I do not consider the conditions as posted to be at all bad!

It was probably freezing fog which was lifting into scud cloud clear above.

The icing would have accrued from leaving the aircraft out the night before not picking up ice after takeoff.

It looks like someone advised him to take deicing which is very expensive.
Taking off in an iced up aircraft is highly dangerous for obvious reasons.
As someone pointed out the Ice to him that seems the most likely factor in the accident which tragically killed such young people with their lives ahead of them.
Very sad and avoidable

Pace

[maxred]

Whether it's moral to expose innocent parties to it is another question.

This again, another tragic incident where children involved, and would look to have been totally avoidable. Agree with Pace that the conditions were not so bad, however, a lot of holes would appear to have lined up again.

There have been a number of incidents recently where children, in reasonable numbers, are the victims, and a lot of the incidents, pre reports, appear to have been caused by pilot error.

Be it taking off in marginal weather, be it limited experience for the conditions they are flying in, be it CFIT, flying in conditions that frankly, could have been avoided. Be it lack of currency/recency.

I, and I am sure every pilot on this forum, takes the responsibility very seriously, particularly when carrying young passengers. They entrust you to ensure their safety, and to compromise that trust, is inexcusable.

When it is their own family involved, then, there are times, when I am truly at a loss for words.

[justanotherflyer]

@ Mary Meagher

Mary my comment was ambiguous, apologies. To clarify, I'm saying that vis/cloud at IFR minima on takeoff does not in itself present an unusual threat to a capable pilot/aircraft combination. But remove the ability to sustain altitude after a power loss in low cloud, and the risk of danger is greatly increased.

There was a time when I considered that risk acceptable. No more!

[Pace]

JustAnotherFlyer

Just re read your response so deleted my own :ok: Yes I was always told never do anything in aviation (or life) Without an out!

Ie if you play Russian Roulette and take an option where there are no other options open to you then its a matter of pulling the trigger and hoping there is no bullet in that chamber.

Risk management is another thing that springs to mind! I personally would not feel comfortable flying a single at night any distance or over fog or very low cloud.
I used to years ago and got away with it but both are situations where if the Donkey stopped you are in the lap of the Gods.

Probably a 500 foot minima for cloud is sensible where you have some room for selecting a landing site 1000 foot better!

Regardless I do not feel had it been a Cavok day that the result would have been different! I feel he attempted to takeoff with an aircraft which was covered in Ice and crashed because of that but I could be wrong?

[doubleu-anker]

Yes deicing is expensive and a total ripoff if you ask me.

I wonder if there was hangarage at the airport, on a nightly basis. Even a couple of nights in the hanger, out of the frost, must be cheaper then leaving the a/c outside then deicing. The frost forecasts are very acurate these days.

The old story. "If you think safety is expensive, try having an accident"

I wouldnt mind £10, every time I have quoted that all too true a saying, to numerous bosses in the past. Bosses that should never have been allowed near an aircraft.

[A and C]

I agree with you about the airframe ice but the conditions were perfect for icing in the compressor intake IF the intake anti ice system was not working for some reason.

[Pace]

In RTBF news (Belgian TV) an employee of airport (assisting on boarding and witness of the crash) tell that it was frost (ice) on the plane and the pilot refused the deicing offer !
Also reported that deicing is not mandatory for private aircraft ......
The plane was very low when he returned to the airport .. he never got altitude ..

A & C

You maybe right!!! It is the above comment which made me think he took off with visible ice on the aircraft!
He would have had a higher rotate speed an increased stall speed probably could not get much climb out of the aircraft? Increased AOA, everything going down the drain and crashed.
That is not discounting your theory or it may have been a combination of the two but if the above report is accurate and deicing was offered then obviously someone felt the aircraft needed deice?
The further fact that it was refused (probably on cost or time the fact that RyanAirs were ahead in the deice line) has to mean other than he himself deicing the aircraft that it took off with Ice which the pilot felt the aircraft could handle

Pace

[mary meagher]

The english language newspaper report has vanished, but the RTL report in French which seems quite sensible and not difficult to understand, says that the aeroplane attenpted to return to the airport, and crashed on the grass next to the runway.
So even with ice on the wings, it left the ground....and tried to return.

[Pace]

Mary

Agree but here is the scenario! Pilot decides to take off with Ice. He Rotates at the normal speed the aircraft is reluctant to go.
He allows more speed and the aircraft takes off but feels awful.
He is getting little or no climb with full power or maybe does not have full power available (A & C) Now he regrets his actions to go and realizes he has a major problem with the handling! He needs to get back quickly! He is loosing height and his instincts are to pull back to get that height! More AOA more drag less speed but ????? Crash.

Pace

[doubleu-anker]

I hope this ill fated flight was caught on CCTV. Being the police state Belgium has become I would be surprised should this not be so. It could reveal a lot of information to the investigators.

Pace

I think you maybe right with your version of events.

No two cases of surface contamination are the same, therefore no one can predict the aerodynamic behaviour of the aircraft, should one decide in the extremely risky venture, of attempting to get airbourne. You became a test pilot.

[A and C]

At this distance we are both just speculating but ice on the airframe as you say will reduce performance considerably, just as ice in the compressor intake, ether one or both could be the reason for the accident.

Doubleu-anker I am interested as to why you think that De-icing is such a rip off, IF ice is found to be the cause of this tragic loss of life and an expensive aircraft the cost of a few gallons of fluids would seem to be a reasonable price to pay for the safety it gives.

[doubleu-anker]

Don't worry I am more aware than you, of the importance of de icing. However are you trying to tell me that a "few gallons" of de ice fluid at 1000E is not a rip off??

I operated heavy freighters for years where "de icing" attracted the unscrupulous. Some of my colleagues (one ex big airline I might add) would put in for de iceing on the expenses, when de icing hadn't but should have been carried out. However they chose to risk everything, for $US 6000 approx (20 years ago), which they kept for themselves. The point I am trying to make, is money can cloud judgement.

The cost and delay could have been a factor in his decision not to de ice. We will never know. It shouldn't but it may have. Something must have persuaded him not to deice, apart from inexperience or ignorance.

[Contacttower]

There are a number of light aircraft based at Charleroi so one would think there was an arrangement for reasonable aircraft deicing.

During the winter I usually look at the forecast and establish whether there is likely to be ice on the aircraft if it's going to be left out overnight away from base.

If yes then inquire about deicing in advance to establish the options and cost. It's never actually been necessary but after a morning in Inverness a while ago when the plane was covered in thick frost I've always had some Kilfrost to carry as a back up if I anticipate needing some.

[Pace]

Contact Tower

We were in Eindhoven not long back and required deice on a Citation Ice had attached to the first ten feet out on the wings from the roots.
We had 220 liters deposited (Their minimum :ugh:) and with the compulsory call out charge for the Lorry the bill was 1000 Euros.
There were 5 RyanAirs delayed at Charleroi this accident site! they will always get preference in the deice lineup.

So my guess is he did not want the cost or time lost but who knows???
I do think it an awful tragedy that 3 young kids had their lives wiped out in one instant and it will be interesting to see the AAIB report on this one.

Pace

[mary meagher]

So what can we learn at this stage that may help us behave responsibly to our passengers? Who trust us with their lives.

Every pilot who reads the safety leaflets from the CAA will benefit from advice on winter flying. The first error in this case was apparently to depart with contaminated wing surfaces, or possibly as A and C suggests, ice affecting the engine efficiency. And the second error in this case, from the very little we still know, may have been that impulse to turn back to the airport, when it may have been too low to do so and still arrive under control.

The scenario outlined by Pace in his comment at 15.17 sounds likely. But having made the first mistake of launching with an unfit aircraft, it may still be possible to survive by landing without turning back. On whatever road, parking lot, golf course, shopping center, lake, or even on a large building, if nothing better can be found, as long as you are under control. The BBC photo of the wreckage suggests that a severe impact was involved, possibly from a spin.

[A and C]

A number people have branded De-icing services a rip of but you have to ask
if service is a reasonable business proposition or a money looser that you have to provide to be a handeling agent?

The kit sits around for 9 months of the year doing nothing and then you are at the mercy of the weather as to the number of times you get called to an aircraft.

The kit has to be maintained, the fluid stored, the staff trained, insurance paid and no doubt a host of other things paid for.

I would suggest that De-icing is not a rip off, just expensive but the nature of the business and no one is making very much money providing this service, as always it is far easier to brand something a ripoff than examin the hard economic facts.

[Pace]

A&C

I cannot disagree with what you are saying about the cost of deicing an aircraft.
To a private jet owner 1000 Euros for deice is acceptable as a one off a couple of times a year.
To the owner of a small single 1000 Euros is a huge amount of money Couple that with the fact that you are at the end of the line to RyanAir demands for deicing and you can see the temptation to convince yourself that the aircraft is a good ice carrier and all will be fine for takeoff?

Pace

[mm_flynn]

At most airports in a small plane you are probably better off trying to beg a couple of hours in a heated hanger rather than the deice truck. They are just not made to deice spam cans.

When I have a risk of frost I carry I sprayer full of ground deice liquid (about 20 euros) and a big beach towel. Spray, wait a few minutes, wipe away loosened frost/ice, go. Obviously, this provides 0 hold over - but if I need hold over I am stuffed as the bleed air to the wings on the Bonanza doesn't seem to work :O

[doubleu-anker]

Talk about de iceing and money, we might be onto something here.

With your de icing rig, you could charge say, 900 euros, (seriously under cutting the truck) minus the 20 quid for your spray set up and I see a profit of 870 +/- euros.

Rip off?? No cheaper!!

[dirkdj]

After an overnight stay in Switzerland, I saw the Bonanza was iced up (freezing rain). There was several millimeters of clear ice all over. I went into the flying club and talked to some guys, the club mechanic told us to put it in the heated hanger, he arrived a few minutes later with a heat gun and started removing the ice. After about 45 minutes in the hangar, all was clear. I asked what I needed to pay him for his service. The reply: Nothing, but you can put some money in the piggybank for coffee. I deposited 20 SFR and everybody was happy.

Needless to say, this was a GA-only airfield.

[doubleu-anker]

http://www.pprune.org/private-flying/507499-plane-crash-multi-cam-shot.html

The above video, in the thread I think illustrates, what you can get away with, by landing ahead under control. This aircraft flew into trees, (albeit inadvertently) at somewhere near cruise speed. It seems they all survived. The wings etc., can absorb a lot of the energy of a collision helping to make the outcome more favourable.

Just my 2 cents worth.

[Contacttower]

Thing is it is great when you are at a friendly GA field with hangars and/or people who might be able to give you a small amount of suitable light aircraft fluid for a reasonable cost. Alone at a big airport that is not used to light aircraft and their requirements deicing can be a pain. That is why one should always have made acceptable arrangements in advance if there is the possibility of needing it.

Having been to Charleroi before I know there are quite a few light aircraft based there and I would have thought that some sort of light aircraft friendly deicing arrangement could have been organised. It also depends on the contamination; although on a large high winged aircraft it will be time consuming frost can just be brushed and scraped off. Frozen water drops though generally stick on and only deicing or heat will remove it.

Pace - do you use type I or II fluid on the Citation?

[doubleu-anker]

Another thing that I feel should be mentioned, to remind ourselves.

In an iced up aircraft, you may not get any warning of the stall whatsoever., either aerodynamically or from the stall warning. The stall warning reed will be set to engage at somewhere around 12 degs AOA. i.e., somewhere near the onset of the stall, non contaminated. Iced up a/c stall at a lot less AOA than that.