Operational flying in GW1

[AR1]

Question: Why hasn't there been more literature published by crew regarding operational flying in GW1?

Cheers! AR1

[WASALOADIE]

Not being permitted to disclose information iaw the Official Secrets Act?

[just another jocky]

Any particular article/book would likely be very limited in its scope as we all only had a little part to play in the overall op. Those higher up the food chain who had a grander perspective would lack the detail perhaps.

I have often wondered, however, why there haven't been more publications on a period that involved so many members of the armed forces and had repurcussions down the years for so many RAF.

[Heathrow Harry]

A. Still a residual feeling that our much vaunted under the radar airfield denial strategy turned out to be wrong

B. Not much for the fighter jockeys to do - carting ordnance around isn't sexy

[Dengue_Dude]

When the 'boys' were streaming northbound over the border both in the air and on the ground, I had the good fortune to be heading South from Jubail at 480 kts.

That and medals for 'shopping in combat' don't make for great stories ;););)

[TEEEJ]

Heathrow Harry wrote

A. Still a residual feeling that our much vaunted under the radar airfield denial strategy turned out to be wrong

Why does this myth still persist? It wasn't just the RAF operating at low level and bombing airfields. Some of the USAF were down in the weeds for the first three days phase and that included B-52s attacking airfields.

The BUFF at War (http://www.airforce-magazine.com/MagazineArchive/Pages/1992/June%201992/0692buff.aspx)

See other links at following post.

http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/504450-vulcans-falkland-raid-5.html#post7625348

[Milo Minderbinder]

The question from that is.....did the JP233 attacks actually work? Did they acheive the purpose? (Irrespective of losses)
If you hadn't carried out those low level attacks, what other area denial weapons were there available in theatre that could have been delivered more safely?

[Load Toad]

Didn't I read on a thread recently that the options were Durandel and JP233. For some reason I can not recall Durandel was not preferred (maybe the delivery aircraft F111's were needed elsewhere). I've read nothing that says JP233 didn't work at denying the Iraqi's the use of the runways targeted.

[Tashengurt]

I heard at the time that the Iraqis were just pressure washing the area denial bomblets away then patching up any holes?


Posted from Pprune.org App for Android

[AR1]

There were i belive extremely well equipped bdr teams at these airfields which were to put it mildly vast. Whatever the reason they didn't come out to play in any great numbers so we reached a point where there was no reason to go back. But right or wrong tactics there still must be a story even at a collective level. Anything to counter the 4000 SAS we seemed to have deployed. ;-)

[ExRAFRadar]

Agree about the lack of articles/books about GW1 UK Air activity, at least in public domain.

I did read a good book about Strike Eagles during the conflict and one chapter had a memorable line from one pilot:

"King Kong hanging off my nuts by steel wire would not drag me down to Low Level again"

I seem to recall there was a decent study of the RAF tactics and losses somewhere out there but I lost it in the mists of time. I'll go hunt.

[ExRAFRadar]

Found this. Page 94 onwards is interesting. Actually it looks like most of it could be worth a lunchtime read.

http://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/documents/research/RAF-Historical-Society-Journals/Journal-32-Joint-US-UK-seminar.pdf

[ExAscoteer]

The question from that is.....did the JP233 attacks actually work? Did they achieve the purpose? (Irrespective of losses)

Only a single aircraft was shot down on a JP233 attack, and that several minutes after release.

[Lightning Mate]

Only a single aircraft was shot down on a JP233 attack, and that several minutes
after release.

That Tornado was being flown by a good friend of mine.

Are you sure it was shot down?

[ExAscoteer]

Maybe I should have said 'lost', possibly shot down by triple A.

I knew the Nav.

[Lightning Mate]

If memory serves, it wasn't minutes after weapon release - more like seconds.

[just another jocky]

Was it a suspected AP dropout post cannister release? That would have been seconds.

IIRC Tallil was the home base for a Fire Fighting school hence they tried to clear the JP233 submunitions using their vehicles but I don't believe that occurred elsewhere.

And apart from the A-A kill whilst dispensing a pair of JP233, the airfields concerned virtually ceased flying after they were targetted. Now whether that was because they decided they couldn't take off or land or because they simply refused to as they were more than likely to be shot down I suspect we will never know.

There are some forum members on here who flew in those attacks and whilst the JP233 was not designed to go against the specific design of the Iraqi runways, from the reports I have read and photos I have seen, they provided a lot of disruption but the weapon failed to crater sufficiently well as one might have expected elsewhere.

[Onceapilot]

Some of the bones on the whole subject are in those RAF Museum doc articles, but not all of it and, not the meat, IMO.
A sad time for many.

OAP

[Heathrow Harry]

lets be generous and say the low level attacks were suspended due to the fact they became pointless as the IAF refused to fight.............

tho at the time I remember a lot of people thinking "Fairey Battle - again"

[Alber Ratman]

Why risk assets with LL attacks with JP233 once the suprise was gone, when ML LGB ops were just as effective once a designator was in thearte.

Iraq BDR teams? Don't make me laugh.. I was out at Dharhan on the GR BDR teams, largest BDR job we did was due to a ML own goal. I remember talking with one of my snec's when repairing Delta Hotel, when this Saudi airman pitiches up to Bernie and says " You Sh*t metalworker? I sh*t metalworker", Bernies reply? " You propably are...":E

[just another jocky]

lets be generous and say the low level attacks were suspended due to the fact they became pointless as the IAF refused to fight.............

tho at the time I remember a lot of people thinking "Fairey Battle - again"

Those would be the folk didn't know their arse from their elbow then. ;)

@AR - I don't think it was the loss of the 'element of surprise' as much as 'air supremacy' that moved things higher for the GR1, or at best a combination of them both. Low level was there because it was the best defence against a layered air defence system. Once that was pretty much dismantled, the ML option became available, although it still took a little time to get the LGB option into theatre

[Alber Ratman]

Just Another Jockey.. You are totally correct,

The IAF didn't fight because when they tried to, they were hacked out of the sky long before they even had a chance to engage any collilation aircraft.:ok:

[just another jocky]

The IAF didn't fight because when they tried to, they were hacked out of the sky long before they even had a chance to engage any collilation aircraft.http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

Yes.....by 2 cannisters of JP233! :}

[Warped Factor]

AR 1, if you're looking for something to read, try this...

Thunder and Lightning: R.A.F. in the Gulf - Personal Experiences of War: Amazon.co.uk: Charles Allen: Books

[Alber Ratman]

Originally Posted by Alber Ratman
The IAF didn't fight because when they tried to, they were hacked out of the sky long before they even had a chance to engage any collilation aircraft.http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

Yes.....by 2 cannisters of JP233! http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/badteeth.gif
Well it certainly wasn't by "The Desert Eagles" Sky Flashes or AIM-9Ls was it!!:E

[cuefaye]

Whatever - the guys put themslves in harm's way

[just another jocky]

Well it certainly wasn't by "The Desert Eagles" Sky Flashes or AIM-9Ls was it!!http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/evil.gif

A little ditty floating around in early '91:

I don't want to fly in combat
I don't want to go to war
I'd rather hang around
Riyadh and Dhahran
Filling in my logbook with a sharp green pencil
I don't want a Sam 3 up my ar@ehole
I don't want a Roland in my face......in my faaaaace
I'd rather be in Riyadh, sunny sunny Riyadh
And call myself a punchy F3 ace, cor blimey......on Monday I shoved the f :E

[Mandator]

The Royal Air Force Historical Society is holding a seminar at the RAF Museum on 13 March entitled "Operation Granby - The RAF in Gulf War 1 - 1990-91".

Speakers will include Marshals' Hine, Johns, Alcock, Macfadyen and Wratten.

[Alber Ratman]

We all were in harms way, ask the 28 yanks who died on the ground a couple of miles down the road, could have been anybody... A bit of banter, that all.:)

[Mmmmnice]

Not much mileage in a book about interminable volleyball, and wandering WTF was going on.............rather dull for the slow movers.........except for scoring the occasional porcelain gronker! Not even the endless, endless poetry of WW1

[cuefaye]

AR

Fine --

[Scruffy Fanny]

It amazes me some of the utter rubbish that is written on PPRUNE
First point the F3 had the Aim 9M not the Aim 9L
The GR1 Force did EXACTLY what they were supposed to do that is stop the Iraqi Air Force getting airborne and therefore gaining domination of the Air - FACT after day three or so there was no need to carry on with JP233 missions they had achieved what they needed to do. No GR1s were lost due to JP233 missions FACT - one aircraft crashed post target for reasons never proved. The biggest problem the RAF had was once Medium level tactics were adopted they lacked any form of self designating pod - hence the Buccaneers being sent out and later TIALD being used (2) pods at TABUK . The RAF lacked a Precision Guided Weapon as an example pilot X dropped 58,000lbs of weapons in Gulf War one but then dropped 6,000 lbs of PGWs in Operation Telic GW2
If people actually knew what the facts were perhaps they might stop writing such UTTER RUBBISH !!!

[EyesFront]

Try "Warthog - Flying the A10 in the Gulf War"

Warthog: Flying The A-10 In The Gulf War - William L. Smallwood - Google Books (http://books.google.co.uk/books/about/Warthog.html?id=v9QykLbO5voC)

[AR1]

At the risk of fanning the flames, which wasn't my intention.. the GR1's deployed the only system we (the west) had that could deny large areas. Durandel didnt even come close. They did it in the manner with which they were trained and delivered the ordnance successfully. And at a cost, even if that cost generally came in the delivery of dumb bombs used (as I understand it) defence suppression. When we didn't need to - we didn't. The timing of that particular decision is the the current bone of contention.
we did what we were supposed to do, and that's what I want to hear about.

[parabellum]

The story I read, written, I think, by one of the crew involved,, said the bomb did not drop, hung up in other words, and the aircraft became unflyable, with a fire, for reasons that were not fully understood but the crew bailed out and were captured.

[just another jocky]

The story I read, written, I think, by one of the crew involved,, said the bomb did not drop, hung up in other words, and the aircraft became unflyable, with a fire, for reasons that were not fully understood but the crew bailed out and were captured.

Was that the Peters/Nicholl downing? If it was, then I believe the main computer did not generate a release cue for the bombs in the loft attack and unfortunately they recovered quite high and into a Roland MEZ which took the fleeting opportunity and claimed them. It's all in their book (well, nearly all ;)).

As an aside; I spoke with a F-111 driver many years who said the Turkey-based F-111s were flying low-level missions for nearly 2 weeks.

[just another jocky]

we did what we were supposed to do, and that's what I want to hear about.

And I agree. We lost a lot of good friends, saw others captured and tortured and yet still the myths regarding the viability of low level attacks and the general poo-pooing of the GR1 (and subsequently GR4) and its capabilities and achievements does gripe me. It is one of the best and most successful attack aircraft we have ever had. It may not be as sexy as, say, the Bucc, or as superficially impressive as the Harrier, but when you examine what the crews, engineers and geeks have done with the aircraft, on operations near-continuously for nearly 23 years, I think my statement there stands the test.

Whilst my part in GW1 was relatively small, I do believe there are stories to be told and we all have them.....8kft and tapped by a AAA site being one of mine! :uhoh:

[TwoTunnels]

Here's a book which was officially sanctioned just after GW1...

Thunder and Lightning: R.A.F. in the Gulf - Personal Experiences of War. (Charles Allen)
ISBN-10: 011701625X
ISBN-13: 978-0117016255

[KiloB]

It must be significant that, of all the Types involved, the GR1s had a Loss Ratio almost an order of magnitude higher than the next worst!
KB

[Pontius Navigator]

KiloB, no one ever thought that a JP233 delivery would be easy. In some respects the GR1s were in the teeth of the battle which, I believe, was at least as fierce as the CR would have been.

[andrewn]

It must be significant that, of all the Types involved, the GR1s had a Loss Ratio almost an order of magnitude higher than the next worst!
KB


I don't think anyone can argue that the GR1 loss rate in the first week or two of GW1 was unsustainable. What's never been clear to me is why this was the case, particularly versus other types that appeared to be flying similar missions - F-111's being a good case in point.


Plain bad luck?
Poorly devised tactics?
The fact that the RAF was tasked with taking on some of the most heavily defended targets (that perhaps others weren't able or willing to do)?
Whatever the reasons behind individual losses (and I know they were varied) it is a fact that the change to ML profiles reduced the loss rate substantively - of course that could have been co-incident with the threat level reducing and/or the return of lady luck.

A sad time for those that lost friends and family - lest we forget and all that.

[Scruffy Fanny]

GW1 only highlighted some of the shortfalls in the GR1 as a weapons system. RAF senior officers were actually expected worse losses on the initial JP233 attacks. As i have posted earlier no aircraft was lost due to a JP233 as such. The delivery of the munitions was designed for a Soviet style Airfield very different to an Iraqi airfield. Those of us that have flown over Iraqi airfields know too well they are as big if no bigger than most international airports. Trying to render them "out of action" is a huge task but the Tornado did its job no question. As to the issue you of loss rates the RAF undeniably had some bad luck- an aircraft bomb fused prematurely, and a GR1 was lost near the end of the war shot down in a large formation- that was poor planning. The Tornado has grown from the lessons of GW1 into the most capable mud mover the RAF or indeed many other air forces have ever had.

[Dengue_Dude]

I think most of us started to take it seriously when we found out that Kate Adie was in town . . .

The hardest thing to find out was WTF is going on. I bought a World Service capable radio downtown Riyadh and learnt more from that than the Int Briefs.

Most of us felt sorry for the Tonka guys as that loss rate was a nasty surprise. Getting shot down by your 'own' side doesn't help morale much either.

[barnstormer1968]

KiloB

I would say that yes it is significant!

The GR1's attacked airfields...... Which are just about the highest defended targets in any country, so, by attacking a set point that the Iraqi's knew would be attacked, and new which part of the target would be attacked, and thus filled them with modern anti air weapons the GR1's were going to get a rough ride.

It was early in the campaign and so the defenders were still at their strongest which also played a part IMHO.

You will also be aware that airfields are flat places and leave no where to hide when flying over.

One other important point (again IMHO) is that any aircraft that can stop at least one opposition aircraft from flying is doing well, and that even the likes of a modern F22 cant guarantee taking out more than one opposition aircraft before it itself is loset. These GR1's that flew over these super hostile sites may have kept more than twenty Iraqi aircraft on the ground for each strike. That is a bloody good result in my book.

It is significant that GR1's were lost in very demanding raids. I wonder if the losses would have been the same if they had entered the conflict five days in, and then attacked sparsely defended targets!

I come from a green background, and think the tanka isn't exactly a sexy looker, but do understand bravery, and especially bravery in using a denial weapon designed to suppress the soviets after flying over very different terrain.

[orca]

Scruffy,

Given the size of the Iraqi airfields how did you set about weapon to target matching and what did you actually attack? What was the feeling in the flying units about attacking a target with a weapon optimised for a smaller target?

I imagine the QWI to CAOC phone was in constant use. How much 'push back' came from the units themselves - or was the move to ML reached by consensus elsewhere?

I watched the war from the safety of secondary school. Hat doffing where it's due - the GR1 community must have been very brave indeed.

One more question if I may. Did the higher command actively seek out hard targets for our boys?

[chickenlover]

To back up what SF says above, and I have no vested interest, I was a pax on a rotary into Talil and Jalibah (Excuse spelling) to look into viability of getting FW assets in there to rescue some kit. It was very early on and there was still fighting going on around the airfields. Those fields were trashed. Good and proper. As if to make the point, the second helo with us was wrecked by a jp223 mine let? ( a little known blue on blue :) ) I reported back that you couldn't pay me enough to try and land there, even in Mr Lockheed's finest short field landing shopping cart. There wasn't a square metre of airfield that didn't have a bit of shrapnel, lump of concrete or bit of JP223 in it. The GR1 boys did a number on them. I had the pleasure of showing the pictures to some of the artists years later. Amazingly, they had no idea what success they had achieved in taking out those airfields. (not a million miles away from you, SF :) )
Cheers
Cl

[KiloB]

1968 You seem to think I was knocking the Tonka guys in some way. Far from it; if anything I was suggesting the "Lions lead by Donkeys" Syndrome. A Loss Rate 10 times higher should not have happened and other posts comment on other Types tasked to similar profiles (initially) without taking such losses.
KB

[barnstormer1968]

KB

I thought you were knocking the tanka. I had no thoughts on you knocking the crews at all. I still don't go along with the lions led by donkeys theory though, but am happy think about lions entering another pride of lions, but using weapons and tactics designed to sneak past elephants :)

Edited, to overcome my poor typing on my ipad.

[just another jocky]

F-111 boys went against much less-well defended targets than the GR1s, probably why they stayed at low level for so much longer. ML only became an option for many a/c types when some specific SAMs and the IAF were taken out of the picture.

@orca - the JP233 had a min & a max length of stick and mostly the Iraqi airfields were too big to go down each surface capable of landing or take-off (you don't have to use just the runway for that), so most of the runs were planned across each surface at an angle such that even if your aiming was out (GR1 did not have GPS so there was quite a margin for error) you would get at least 3 (I think it was 3) cratering submunitions into the surface. Minimum Operating Strip lengths were calculated for each a/c type operating at each airfield and then the maths done giving the number of runs you needed to do. We calculated the number of runs for Tallil and it was more than the number of GRs that we had! So at best it was always going to be a deterrent, which did appear to work.

I believe the move to ML was dictated by HQ not by dets themselves. Unfortunately, the GR1 was designed as a low level bomber and so had little in its inventory at that time that could be accurately dropped from ML. The Buccs were sent out to provide a designator capability and Paveways 2 were dropped by the GRs very successfully. TIALD was rushed into service; it had been foreseen in '90 that this would be needed and a lot of accelerated trials work done by XIII Sqn led to deployment of 2 pods (Sandra & Tracey) to Tabuk. The result was the highest success rate after the F117A and as a bonus the bomber crews finally got to see the effect of the weapons they had dropped.

Yes, there's loads of stories out there. I've just bought the Thunder & Lightning book sugggested earlier and look forward to reading more of them.

orca, your last point is one I don't believe anyone except those directly concerned can answer, however as has been mentioned already, there were no other airfield denial weapons available so the GR1s walked into that job. Yes they were hard targets but no-one else could do the job (not until ML became a realistic option anyway). I can't deny that a little Force pride didn't work its way in there too......no other platform in the world could do what the GR1 could do, and it was done outstandingly. The losses, whilst not directly attributable to the specifics of a JP233 attack, were disproportionate but actually far less than the planning assumptions for war in Central Europe. Few others were put in harms way as much and as often as the GR1s (the rotary boys & a few very brave C130 chaps did an outstanding job too - not trying to claim otherwise). :ok:

[Pontius Navigator]

jaj, speaking from no particularly detailed study, but given as you say a huge landing area, that the actual tactic was to cut the taxi tracks from the HAS complexes - runway denial in a different way?

[Scruffy Fanny]

I think PN the formations briefed the attack profile Pre flight - On night 1 for example one formation of 4 ( which became 3 due to an aircraft going U/S en route) had decided to attack the airfield in different directions some flew down the runway length whilst others cut obliquely across to take out as you say Taxy ways . The Has sites were different to the UK with entrances at the front and back making them more difficult to immobilise. What is often not known is the airfields were softened up with GR1s tossing air burst 1000 Lbs bombs prior to the main JP233 attacks - which actually just annoyed the Iraqi defences making the JP233 aircrafts job more difficult

[Easy Street]

...and it was those 1000lb toss attacks which accounted for most of the losses, partly because of the increased risk in going high within a MEZ.

If any of the casual readers of this thread are still wondering why the Tornados stayed at low level as long as they did, consider this... if popping up to 2000 feet in a dynamic toss attack makes you more likely to get shot down after releasing your bombs, what do you think would happen if you attacked the same target from 15,000 feet or so? Shot down before releasing your bombs is the likely answer.

The suggestion that the Tornado crews were 'lions led by donkeys' because they sustained some losses in the teeth of the Iraqi air defences is risible. The total-avoidance-of-risk approach to 'war' eventually leads to more death, just not where you expected it, and over a longer period. Hard-hitting offensive action carries risks and it's the commander's job to weigh those against the benefits. We shut down the Iraqi airfields. We took some losses, but not enough to stop us contributing to the subsequent stages of the conflict, and not enough to break morale. Job done.

[99 Change Hands]

My memory of ML in the GR1 is that the Main Computer got very lost very quickly and you then had to decide whether to keep fighting the Kalman Filter or not. The weapons calcs fell off pretty rapidly with height too. And then you didn't even have a TACAN to get you home.

[just another jocky]

The suggestion that the Tornado crews were 'lions led by donkeys' because they sustained some losses in the teeth of the Iraqi air defences is risible. The total-avoidance-of-risk approach to 'war' eventually leads to more death, just not where you expected it, and over a longer period. Hard-hitting offensive action carries risks and it's the commander's job to weigh those against the benefits. We shut down the Iraqi airfields. We took some losses, but not enough to stop us contributing to the subsequent stages of the conflict, and not enough to break morale. Job done.

Well put m8. :ok:

[just another jocky]

jaj, speaking from no particularly detailed study, but given as you say a huge landing area, that the actual tactic was to cut the taxi tracks from the HAS complexes - runway denial in a different way?

Not a bad idea, but SF makes a good point. Also, you don't know in advance if IAF a/c are airborne and so NOT denying landing surfaces (as opposed to access to landing surfaces) may allow them to land and park/re-arm/refuel elsewhere. Some of these airfields were HUGE, and dispersal plans even had them towed out into the desert miles from HAS sites.

There was never an attempt to "guarantee" closing down each airfield....that would have taken too many a/c or sorties, but they were harassed enough to effectively close them down, so as ES says, "job done". :ok:

[Pontius Navigator]

may allow them to land and park/re-arm/refuel elsewhere. Some of these airfields were HUGE, and dispersal plans even had them towed out into the desert miles from HAS sites.

If you look at the Russian airfields you will see this wide dispersal system. It is only the lack of land that caused the RAF to build HAS complexes within the landing area.

I accept the point about aircraft landing elsewhere but you admitted yourself that closing all the MOS was impossible anyway.

I think the hope we to bottle up as many aircraft as possible in a HAS complex and then plink each HAS in turn. Time consuming but a bit like Schartzkopf asking why his aircraft were only destroying one tank at a time :)

[just another jocky]

PN.....the plinking of individual HASs only occurred once we all moved to ML and had a PG capability. That along with Paveway'ing every intersection too.

Closing all MOSs was virtually impossible at many of the fields, but I think once the first couple of nights were over and the IAF saw the damage that could be done, they bottled out, if indeed they were ever likely to turn up for Met Brief. :E

[Pontius Navigator]

jaj, of course. The plinking from ML had to follow the pinning down :)

Pin it down, then swat it. I still remember the ITV video that was NOT broadcast when the Bucc put a bomb in the cockpit of a Cub while it was taxying - proof positive that the IAF still had functioning assets well in to the war. It may well have been a lame duck and trying for a runner.

[just another jocky]

I don't recall having any JP shots either, though I do recall a night formation prior to the war from Tabuk. The Lord was unloading the worst electrical storm I had ever seen with huge lightening bolts lighting up the whole sky. The Boss couldn't manage to plug and went home but the rest of us managed. ;) 8000ft amsl, one engine in burner and the rad alt reading whilst plugged in! Then into low level; first time I had tried 200ft Hard Ride on the TFR (and with no NVGs) - it was only cleared to 500ft by night/350ft by day. We were sat, fat dumb & happy then all of a sudden, the sky lit up and we saw that we were buried at the bottom of a very deep gorge with huge mountains on either side (I mean really huge). That was all it took and I stepped the autopilot up to 500ftMSD and kept my eyes in the cockpit. :sad:

It's amazing to see the difference between that event and Afghanistan in the GR4, with NVGs, FLIR, HOTAS and easily able to rack the jet around at low level high up in the mountains and be able to flick quickly into manual and then auto-TFR when the weather deteriorated. Hugely impressive capability. :ok:

[Abbey Road]

Pinkfin, lovely pic of Mr Handley-Page's finest V-tailed, crescent winged, 4-engined jet! But what is the dirty little jet at the bottom of the shot? ;)

From elsewhere on this thread:

The Royal Air Force Historical Society is holding a seminar at the RAF Museum on 13 March entitled "Operation Granby - The RAF in Gulf War 1 - 1990-91".

Speakers will include Marshals' Hine, Johns, Alcock, Macfadyen and Wratten. Hmm, if I could be sure that the last listed speaker, was actually going to speak last, I would attend, listen to the others and then leave pronto. Having seen his supercilious performance in Muharraq, during the war (never mind what happened long after ...), I sure as heck would not go listen to that chump! :*

[cokecan]

ok sideways-scuttlers, enough with the inside jokes - what the score with this Wratten bloke, and someone refered to as 'the Scottish Officer'?

obviously, being Crabs i would expect them to be brash, ill-mannered, spineless, draped in man-made fibres and looking like security guards at Tesco's - but what is it that arrouses such, err.. 'passion' from Ppruners about these two in particular?

[threeputt]

Abbey Road

Chimp more like! I was in the theatre, at Dhahran; he was very late and then proceeded to give us a bollocking, which I thought was a tad unfair.

3P :mad:

[AR1]

The blame game may have something to do with peoples views, but clearly he was winning his troops over long before that.

[Abbey Road]

Pinkfin and threeputt, I was merely trying not get myself banned from these forums! Trust me, there is plenty more in my vocabulary, written and spoken, that could be brought to bear ...... but I had better not! :*

[Easy Street]

but can anyone with first hand knowledge of the process tell me what chance there is of a successful Freedom Of Information request for the full confidential Combat Loss Reports from GW1. Specifically the full individual reports, not the highly-edited summary that appeared at Sqn level.

Nil - the air defence systems in question are still in service all over the world. Any aspect of their performance against allied aircraft, virtually all of which are still in service as well, will still be secret and will probably continue to be so until all those systems are history.

[Didntdoit]

Thanks Cokecan; I thought the nightmares had stopped. :ugh: Now they come flooding back.

Ignoring the generalisation about crab officers, the RAF, like any other outfit, has had and will have people who get to very senior positions despite the hinderance of a charisma bypass and other qualities that do not enhance their popularity, despite the perception in higher cirlces that they get the job done and are fit for command.

'He', was one of them. With the other guy, that's altogther another 4 beer convo...

That is all.

[cokecan]

Didn't,

so the normal thruster/throbber thing, or a deeper, wider 'utter cock' personality that leaves a bad smell over everything it touches?

[Didntdoit]

Unspeakably bigger and smellier Cokes; very perceptive!! :ok: