Sentinel Deployed to Mali

[Sun Who]

BBC News - Mali: RAF surveillance aircraft Sentinel deployed (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21200718)

Sun Who.

[Pontius Navigator]

Creep? .

[Sun Who]

Just because I post a thread on Sentinel, is no reason to suggest I'm a creep.:E

Sun

[Martin the Martian]

Could be looked at as mission creep but, like the C-17s, it seems more of a case of allowing the French to make use of a capability they do not currently possess.

Not that we will possess it ourselves after 2015 under the current plans.:sad:

[Frostchamber]

They seem to keep finding uses for it. What odds on a life extension now, I wonder...?

[N707ZS]

Shame we couldn't lend the French some of our old trident missiles would save having to decomission them.

[VinRouge]

MtM, was my understanding sentinel has a reprieve post 15?

[Easy Street]

was my understanding sentinel has a reprieve post 15?

Some of the ISTAR community seem to be convinced of this but there is absolutely nothing on paper, in my understanding anyway. Until something appears in Hansard I would put it down to wishful thinking. A lot of money will be required to keep it going, I would suggest.

[Biggus]

If sentinel is to be maintained post 2015 (and I'm neither arguing for or against that), then presumably something else has to go/give to release the funding to pay for it - or are there still some people out there who still think that more money will be available by 2015? :=



In the meantime, and I'm not asking for any details, what is the footprint to support the sentinel deployment, admin, supply, engineering, force protection, etc, etc......?

[bit-twiddler]

Think the extension idea comes from government offering them up to Nato in February last year.

@Biggus - the comments about a visiting aircraft at Waddington over on Fighter Control may give a few clues. c17 25/01/13 • FighterControl • Military Aviation Forum (http://www.fightercontrol.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=59&p=459184)

[Frostchamber]

In theory there is an unallocated pot of several £bn to pay for priorities yet to be decided. So in theory again it would be a matter of Sentinel making it onto what I understand MoD calls its "whiteboard" of items it wants to pay for in that way. Of course things may not pan out like that, but the unallocated contingency is part of what appears to be an understanding established between MoD and Treasury as part of MoD putting in place better financial management. Whether the pot survives at all will be a good litmus test of whether a department can deal with the Treasury in good faith. I'm not betting the farm on that, but we'll find out soon enough.

[howiehowie93]

Perhaps they can book the time against Le Aircraft Carrier useage ??

[Sun Who]

The activity looking at the UK's future ISTAR (more properly ISR) constellation is the Air ISTAR Optimisation Study (passing reference here): House of Commons - Future Maritime Surveillance: Government Response to the Committee's Fifth Report of Session 2012-13 - Defence Committee (http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201213/cmselect/cmdfence/827/82704.htm)

It's sponsored by D (JACT) and is a two stage process ultimately reporting April 2014.

Sun

[ORAC]

Definitions: Optimisation Study/Capability Review

Jam yesterday, jam tomorrow, but no jam today......

[DuaneDibley]

howiehowie93 hints at the right of it. This is surely yet another damning indictment of the SDSR decision to dispense with the RN's carrier capability. Safe flying to the Sentinal guys though

[Just This Once...]

We are talking about the Mali that is famously landlocked aren't we?

Sending a carrier verses a few dozen people to run a Sentinel and a couple of C-17s?

Why does ever thread drift into the topic of a floating runway?

[ORAC]

This is surely yet another damning indictment of the SDSR decision to dispense with the RN's carrier capability. Really? Any idea how far northern Mali is from the sea? Dakar to Timbuktu is over 950 miles.

[Just This Once...]

From the coast of Guinea to the east of Mali is about 1200nm.

To put that into perspective if the carrier was left in its UK port the northern tip of Mali would be about 1600nm from the deck.

The RN spiel about how much of the planet is covered in the watery stuff is pretty weak. The last time I checked 100% of the plant is still covered by air.

[BEagle]

For those who think that a little carrier with a handful of puffer jets and a few clattering things would be of much use in this particular conflict, this is a map of the area:

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a341/nw969/Map.jpg
(from bing maps)

'Miles' shown on the ruler are statute miles, not nautical miles.

[AlphaZuluRomeo]

Illustrations of the above:
France didn't send its (only) carrier. OK, it's under (light) maintenance, but this is not rushed to make the ship available either (as it was for Libya).
France did send a BPC (Dixmude) (a very able helicopter platform), but... without helicopter onboard, just as a heavy capacity carrier (armored vehicules, numerous trucks and so on).
I too suppose there is a reason to do so. ;)

[Courtney Mil]

I'm waiting for "the decision to axe Harrier was bonkers".:zzz:

[getsometimein]

Has anyone mentioned Nimrod yet?

Good luck the Sentinel chaps, hope the PM's comment of this taking "decades" doesn't come true!

[Dysonsphere]

France didn't send its (only) carrier. OK, it's under (light) maintenance

As I recall its almost allways under some form of maintence as the thing hardly ever works. Was very poor design and build.

[DuaneDibley]

OK - Stop Stop Stop........

Sincere apologies guys, I hadn't visited prune for some time and, because I was bored this morning, thought I'd re-evaluate the bite reflex. It seems to be depressingly active unfortunately.

P.S. Thought I'd left a bit of a hint for seasoned posters by mis-spelling the ac name (the usual preserve of those with no experience of the platform or, indeed, ISTAR).

Sorry once again - I'm back off to Mumsnet.............

[Willard Whyte]

The last time I checked 100% of the plant is still covered by air.

Probably have to land at some point though.

[Pontius Navigator]

What are the hotels like?

How long do you have to spend in theatre before you can buy a new BMW?

Maybe the Swiss navy could help?

[Trim Stab]

Is Sentinel SAR degraded significantly by dust? Harmattan must be in full swing down there and it is impressively dense when at its worst. It is not unusual to have RVRs of 750m and vertical vis of 100ft.

[Biggus]

Maybe the Swiss Navy will deploy some of its SSNs?

[HAS59]

Just because the Sentinel has been sent to Mali, that does not automatically follow that it will be of any real use.
Many have been 'taken in' by the story that it saved the day in Libya, where is the evidence?
It remains now what it always has been an aircraft with no real current role looking to preserve its future.

Ask yourself these questions,

"If we did not have a synthetic aperture radar reconnaissance aircraft would we go out and buy one?"

"What exactly would we use it for - and where?"

"What questions does the information gained by this sensor provide that can not be acquired by other sources?"

Don't be fooled guys ...

[Just This Once...]

I think HAS59 was offered some sweets by a Sentinel and didn't enjoy what happened next.

:E

[Pontius Navigator]

"If we did not have a synthetic aperture radar reconnaissance aircraft would we go out and buy one?"

Er without knowing the answers to the questions below how can anyone not in the know make an informed answer?

"What exactly would we use it for - and where?"

"What questions does the information gained by this sensor provide that can not be acquired by other sources?"

Don't be fooled guys ...

Now if it does actually work, which is more cost effective, an aircraft you have or an aircraft you want? Unless, that is, that you happen to own two types. Then perhaps you views may be coloured if you job relies on the one rather than the other.

[BlackadderIA]

Now that's some top trolling!
I have to ask (and solely out of a morbid curiosity) but which wonder platform are you touting instead?
(oh god it's going to be a UAV isn't it?)

[Just This Once...]

I think he will be struggling to think of any other wide-area sensor over Mali right now.

[BlackadderIA]

It's going to be the whole "but platform X has a dinky little radar so it must be just as good as the chuffing massive radar in Sentinel" thing. I just know it.:rolleyes:

[Just This Once...]

You are probably right and then someone will question why the USAF has the ASARS-2 on the U2 or why the J-STARS fleet exists. Clearly driving driving a UAV to 40km or some of the more advanced FJ radars to within 40nm of a target makes so much more sense when trying to answer RFIs in an area the size of Spain.

Still, it will be giggle as the ill-informed argue amongst themselves whilst the Treasury reaches for the Sentinel-shaped knives.

[HAS59]

Oh dear…
I’m retired now, thankfully; however I worked on CASTOR I know where this thing came from and why, and what it can and can’t do. What do you think a SAR/GMTI image on its own actually shows? I am also very aware of the strong PR job being done on its behalf, which is understandable but questionable.

Mr BlackadderIA - I’m not suggesting a UAV can do the job that the Sentinel does.

I am suggesting that the only job that the Sentinel can do is unnecessary now that the original (Cold War) role does not exist. There are far more, better capable 24/7 space-based sensors available to the French military for wide area coverage. I question its use in the UK Military at all. We have it so we are trying to justify its existence to avoid the embarrassment of spending so much for so long to get so little.

I find it interesting that the USAF U-2 with its very fine ASARS-2 and the E-8C J-STARS have both been quiet in recent military actions.

Did you know that we were offered into the U-2 programme in the 80’s by the US when all the inter-service squabbling took place? We told them that ‘we could come up with something better.’ J-STARS is in a different league, I doubt if we will ever need to see ‘that big a picture’ ever again.

My feeling here is that the good people operating and supporting the Sentinel (whom I support unreservedly) are being used for PR reasons. The UK will look good supporting our ally (nothing wrong with that). I seriously question whether there will ever be any real significant military contribution from this platform.

Yes there are more cuts coming, and we have all seen too many. But don’t shed a tear when Sentinel goes, we will lose a sensor we currently do not need that is all. A wide spectrum of information gathering will still continue (it only becomes ‘intelligence’ when it is acted upon correctly).

Sweets? Nobody offered me sweets…

[sargs]

"Oh dear" is right, HAS59 - it's a while since I saw a post so completely and fundamentally wrong.

You worked on CASTOR? That makes your experience nearly 3 decades out of date - it's a bit like saying you flew Lightnings so you completely understand Typhoon's capabilities. Just because the Cold War is over doesn't mean that we no longer have an interest in SAR and GMTI products. "Far more" and "better" space based sensors? Name one. And when you've done that, explain to me how it can stare, for many hours, at the same piece of land in Mali, or anywhere else come to that.

U-2 and JSTARS quiet in recent military actions? Plain wrong - what they do just doesn't make the press.

Do you think that the "good people operating and supporting the Sentinel" are just doing it for a laugh? By your understanding they're using a crap capability to collect information that nobody needs anymore (and anyway is apparently available 24/7 from space) to provide a big picture that nobody wants.

BlackadderIA - I am suggesting a UAV can do the job - NATO certainly think so with NAGS. UAVs rock....

DuaneDibley - you're a very naughty boy - you know retired people aren't supposed to express opinions on this site....

[Lima Juliet]

HAS59

I agree and this has been the way ahead for the US for some time

Discoverer II (DII) (http://www.fas.org/spp/military/program/imint/starlight.htm)

Sentinel was almost obsolete before ISD! 30cm resolution spot SAR is quoted in the above which is pretty damn good.

I will also mention Predators and Reapers - they give some significant advantages over Sentinel's one big trick of wide area SAR in that:

1. They have a better SAR resolution capability.
2. They are able to ID with other sensors (like their EO/IR ball).
3. Having achieved positive ID they can finish a confirmed hostile target.
4. They can loiter longer.
5. They have the ability to carry wide area sensors like GORGON STARE, DB-110 and also maritime RADAR at the expense of the weapon fit.

I'm not saying UAV is the be all and end all, but when we are money constrained I would rather take this capability that can deliver 5 things over Sentinel's 1.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, the Sentinel is a one-trick pony that at times has been almost lame due to its poor datalinks, lack of endurance and other significant issues with some of its systems that still don't work. We, the UK military, can't afford it and so come 2015 it should be time for the knackers yard!

No sweeties for me either!

LJ

[AlphaZuluRomeo]

France didn't send its (only) carrier. OK, it's under (light) maintenance As I recall its almost allways under some form of maintence as the thing hardly ever works. Was very poor design and build.
Well, Sir, maybe you should review your recollections.:hmm:
Unless I'm very much mistaken, she participated to operations in Indian Ocean, Gulf (waving the flag, Afghan ops), Arabian Sea (counter piracy) in recent years. In 2011, just after being back from a several months deployment, she was able to sail off again to join the ops off the costs of Libya.:D

Admitedly, being more or less a prototype, she had her share of issues, most were light, some were serious. Admitedly, being the sole French carrier, when she's off, French carrier capability is off.:uhoh:
Now, perhaps we should compare with other european navies? How did France's neighbours "things" recently? :E

[iRaven]

Sargs

I agree "UAVs rock" and come 2015 they will be calling on this to augment overhead SAR/GMTI NATO - Topic: Alliance Ground Surveillance (AGS) (http://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/topics_48892.htm)

They've even got a Global Hawk AAR demonstration trial that is ongoing, and as I understand, is going well.

We do have some Brits and a small amount of cash going into NATO AGS but just like the NATO AEW program the Brits and French have not fully committed and may want to contribute "in kind" with nationally owned assets. I guess this will depend on what 'dog's dinner' the UK and France come up with for Project SCAVENGER - with BAE and Dassault still jostling for position with nothing much to offer at this time.

I suspect this ISTAR report is going to be key.

iRaven

[BlackadderIA]

You can see no requirement in a rapidly changing battle like Lybia/Mali for a wide area battlefield surveillance radar? Really?

I know it's very difficult to discuss capabilities on a public forum but I'd love to know what space-based sensor available to the French military can find a small group of technicals in a vast area, track that group and then cue on fast air - all in real time? I wouldn't mind knowing which space-based systems are 24/7 too - surely the French Helios EO birds are sun-synchronous?
GMTI is a much sought after capability nowadays and Sentinel, JSTARS and later the SKASaC were heavily used in Libya. The U2 boys might also be a little hurt that you think they haven't been involved recently.
It's certainly no odd publicity myth that Sentinel did well in Libya - tracking enemy vehicles over large areas was what it was designed for in the Cold War so it's no surprise it performed well.
It's all academic as it's a capability that will almost certainly get the chop in the next few years, but to say we didn't need it seems very short sighted. Only the big boys get to play wide-area persistent GMTI and we've got it for comparatively peanuts (the bid from Boeing to provide JSTARS instead was ten times the price).

[The B Word]

Courtney

The decision to shelve Harriers was bonkers.:}

We could have used the Harrier from land bases like we did for Op HERRICK, Op BOLTON, Op ALLIED FORCE and Op TELIC instead of using faster jets, with longer legs and with bigger SCLs from the very same land bases...:ugh:

Oh, the irony...:ok:

The B Word

[The B Word]

BIA

Using your cost analogy, then this should have been procured instead as it would be 10 times cheaper...

http://www.spyflight.co.uk/images/jpgs/Britten%20Norman%20Islander/castor2.jpg

:}

[BlackadderIA]

Nothing like enough pie-lifting capacity though. Also a distinct lack of future employment prospects flying VVIPs compared to the GLEX.

[HAS59]

Sargs:- Though I did work on CASTOR (and the Phantom with its SLAR before it), I only retired from the military last September and have a fair idea and experience of the subject. And … I said the U-2 and J-STARS were quiet, not absent – read the words. If you want to stare for hours on end at the desert looking for dots that might be hooligans be my guest. If you want to know about French strategic reconnaissance assets ask a French analyst, this is not the place for these details.
I respect your point of view, a point of view can be different but still not wrong.

BlackadderIA:- A wide area Battlefield Surveillance System would be a wonderful thing to have but we have Sentinel instead. Maybe one day many years from now we will get what we need and not what we inherit. You know that the radar can, at best find possible (occasionally probable) targets for someone else with a proper sensor to look at and positively identify, (which is all that it did in Libya). And obviously GMTI only works if your ‘target’ is moving. Let us not pretend that Sentinel can do things that it cannot. It is fine for finding ‘what might be a target’ I’ll give you that, but it’s not the only system ‘looking’ at the problem.
I like the SKASaC solution a lot better, shame it too is for the heave-ho soon. I would like to see the French getting their Horizon equipped Pumas out there into what is after all their problem.

Leon said it well, from his UAV dugout, other more modern systems have better resolution and a sensor on board that can actually see the target and not just its radar return.

In the Cold War the CASTOR would have worked closely alongside many other assets to identify the targets, Sentinel is no different in this respect many decades later no matter how much the press and the MOD decide ‘sex it up’.

No one would go out and buy a system with this limited capability today – it should go when the money runs out. The unit is a high profile easy to impress outfit trying to be a success with an outdated piece of kit and a concept that relies too heavily on others. It’s not their fault and I wish them every success, I am not knocking the operators they are good people.

Maybe they should keep the jet but update it with modern multi-spectral (lighter weight) sensors, build on the operational experience gained and…Oh what’s that? No money … Oh dear …

[orca]

Instead of sending Sentinel to Mali could we not just have photocopied a road map of the place and then put two way arrows up and down all the major routes? Scan it, put it on powerpoint, stick on a statement of the bleeding obvious such as 'most traffic following the main MSRs'. Call it the ISTAR slide for the day and show it at the daily 'CAOC ain't we ace brief'. Add a degree of authenticity by making sure that traffic stops in both directions somewhere in the vicinity of the frontline.

Voila. A product as useful as the daily Sentinel slide.;)

Alternatively just blow up a grainy x-ray of your right knee or eldest child's twelve week scan - and tell the big cheese that it clearly shows the baddies on the move.

Fly safely ISTAR chaps.

(For those a little slow - first few bits 'banter' - last four words 'serious'.)

[BlackadderIA]

Finding what 'might be a target' is exactly what sentinel does? As is working with other assets for PID. It is effectively son of CASTOR after all.
Why waste many hours searching a large area with the high-res UAV camera when you can instead discount 98% of it with Sentinel and key the FMV onto the moving vehicles/static vehicles that have arrived since yesterday instead?

I'm not sure what you mean by preferring the Sea King model? Surely it's the same model as Sentinel but just no SAR? The SKASaCs mission kit is world class but it's unfortunately tied to a poor radar on the wrong platform. If the navy ever get the funding to fit the mission kit to Merlin with a modern radar then they will have a truly fantastic system.

Raytheon may have screwed to contractor support element but El Segundo managed to build a bloody good radar in the Sentinel DMRS. It easily outperforms ASARS-2 and JSTARS, so much so the US chose a slightly modified version for the P3 LSRS. It had its teething troubles but what platform doesn't? Why it seems to have acquired this name for itself within certain part of the int world as useless is beyond me? Like I said though, academic as there's no money. We can continue the debate at Cosford or Hendon (or more likely Bravebridge Scrappy).

Orca - you missed adding other top-level intelligence calls such as 'activty reduced during the hours of darkness'. My favorite in the CAOC was a SAR of Misratah (or some other port) with a huge ship-shaped return in the middle of the docks labelled 'UI Object Arrived at Port Since Previous Image. IA Comment: Possible Ship'. Balls on the line analysis reminiscent of Arnhem there!

[AlphaZuluRomeo]

Why waste many hours searching a large area with the high-res UAV camera when you can instead discount 98% of it with Sentinel and key the FMV onto the moving vehicles/static vehicles that have arrived since yesterday instead?
We should be able to do both. I hear Atlantique (ATL2s) are extensively used. I'm not sure they got a SAR per se as of today, but they combine an AtoG radar and FLIR/optical sensors, plus an interesting loitering capability (even if less than a classic MALE UAV).

[SASless]

A couple of Toll Gates....and not only do you get your intel....but you turn a profit to boot!

[Lima Juliet]

BIA

Why waste many hours searching a large area with the high-res UAV camera when you can instead discount 98% of it with Sentinel and key the FMV onto the moving vehicles/static vehicles that have arrived since yesterday instead?

The UAV/RPAS carries its own SAR/GMTI with less range than sentinel (about 1/4) but a better resolution (about 3 times) so it can do lots of wide area discrimination.

LJ

[Just This Once...]

Your ratio of range is a little off as Sentinel is better in range than x4. The effective resolution has moved on since you last saw it too.

[sturb199]

What about GR4 with RAPTOR????? Any thoughts???

[chopper2004]

I agree with B Word that We should've had / bought CASTOR back in the good ol days of the Cold War and some EW / ELINT strength akin to what the 1st MIB had under V Corps and V II Corps as well as other assets not including the RC-12 and RU-21 at the time. I found it odd as the AAc and the British Army at that who are/were the best alongside the USAREUR wouldn't have had airborne battlefield EW assets.

Now suddenly we've bought Shadow in last few years of which the likes of the US Army has had SEMA assets for over four if not five decades though granted the USAF has only had MC-12W Liberty in the last decade of so operating out East :) so guess we're not so behind :)

Good luck to Sentinel and hope this is a stay of execution post 2015 :)

Oh and surprisingly the French don't have much EW / battlefield assets so what's happen to 'Horizon' - AS-532UL then?

Cheers

[Biggus]

Mission creep?

BBC News - Mali crisis: UK troops set to join EU training forces (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21240676)

[glad rag]

Usual journalistic standards


The 330 military personnel comprises of 200 to West African nations, 40 military advisers to Mali, 70 on a RAF Sentinel surveillance aircraft and 20 on a C17 transport plane.

[Haraka]

sturb199 What about GR4 with RAPTOR????? Any thoughts???

Yes.... No.

[Dengue_Dude]

Everyone is worrying too much . . . we can trust our politicians to tell us the truth and not allow ratings, popularity etc to influence their decisions.

I'm so glad that the PM and his ministers come from such trustworthy stock . . . they'll stop us getting embroiled in yet another sandy war.



Blimey, these are good tablets

[CoffmanStarter]

DD are yours the same as mine :)

http://www.vitaminshoppe.com/images/catalog/skus/l_1b-1029.png

[Courtney Mil]

"Why the hell didn't I take the blue pill?"

Oh, and thank you, B Word. It had to come.:ok:

[CoffmanStarter]

"Why the hell didn't I take the blue pill?"

Cos F4 Pilots stay up longer?