PPL in Germany

[RedBullGaveMeWings]

What is the average price to obtain a PPL + NVFR in Germany? And how long does it usually take either full-time or while working?
I am asking it as I may move to Germany in a couple of months and I want to start flight training all the way up to my ATPL frozen through modular training.
Furthermore, what are the flight schools or flying club around either Frankfurt am Main area or Gießen area?

[andre1990]

Apologies for the near on 3 month bump but i'm interested to know the answer to OP's questions also if anyone has them!

[riverrock83]

There are few German based pilots on this forum. Probably better to find a German forum?

How long does it take? I suspect its going to be similar to every where else: ie it depends based on lotsof different factors. As everything in Europe is either EASA already or is becoming EASA - most of the requirements are fairly generic across all of Europe. That includes how long it will take...

Price will (I suspect) vary hugely depending on the number of flying hours it takes, what plane you are using and whether a simulator is used for some of the training. A two second google for a German PPL brought up as a first hit
Air Alliance | PPL(A) Private Pilot License (http://www.air-alliance.de/index.php?article_id=95&clang=1)
/ http://www.air-alliance.de/files/ppl-a_easa-fernkurs_neu.pdf

€10.650 without night qualification looks about right to me (compared to the UK), and that assumes minimum hours (and doesn't include various other things... I've no idea whether that's representative.

I doubt there is any actual statistics anywhere for this - its just a case of looking around and asking.

[therealdooga]

Well you need at least 45 flying hours for the PPL - assuming the weather is good and you can do 5 hours per week, so...
Theory can be studied and tested in parallel, you should aim to have that finished by the first third of the flying time, because the test is usually required before you're let off on your solo cross-country flights.
Depending on the plane you fly during training, how many hours you really need and what learning materials you choose to get (and maybe a decent headset?), it should cost somewhere between 8500 and 12000€.

You can do the maths for NVFR yourself based on that - iirc it's about a tenth of the flying hours required as for the PPL?

I don't really know the area around Gießen or Frankfurt, but you might want to check out the flight school at Egelsbach near Frankfurt - depending on whether you're planning to learn German, you will need a sufficiently large airport to fly from so that they understand English. This will also factor in the cost of getting the license, because if you mostly fly to large airports during training, the landing fees will be a lot higher than for small ones. The theory test can be done in English AFAIK, also you will need to plan for the AZF radio license (if you're aiming for ATPL anyways), plus get a language proficiency certificate that you actually can speak English. Both together should come at about 500 to 600€.

I might have forgotten a couple of details but that should cover the basics...

[eagleflyer]

Do your PPL in a club and you´ll be a lot cheaper than in a commercial school. On the other hand it´ll take a lot longer too. Many years ago I started off with gliding and I still prefer flying white plastic today. But I continued to get my Touring Motorglider License and then the PPL at reasonable costs with little conversion training.

Here´s (http://www.flugschulen-online.de/verzeichnis.html) a list of commercial schools in Germany.

[therealdooga]

Doesn't have to take longer in a Club - where I learned for example, you can do the 45h in two weeks if you're up to it. Most Clubs won't do the CPL/ATPL training though, I would think (but I might be wrong)
Now gliders take long - but with a propeller up front, the only limit is the weather and your learning ability.

[Steve6443]

My PPL cost the following:

- Medical: €80
- Opticians checkup: €40
- Membership fees: €360 (annual)
- Club Theory Training charge: €400
- C172R / PA28 Archer III rental: 47 hours @ 2,37 / minute = 6683.40
- Government fees for approval to start ppl test / radio test / theory test / skills test: €440
- Landing fees: €1400
- Initial kit (Peter's Exam Software, Chart, log book, pilot bag etc) €140

Total cost: €9543

Additional costs:

Headset (Lightspeed Zulu) €800

Concerning NVFR, the only requirement is 5 hours flying plus 5 landings so if I want to add the NVFR to it, it will cost me around €900 (as I have to take the plane to a different airfield to start from and return to, taking the plane back the next morning as our airfield doesn't have night landing....

Please note that the costs are what I paid to a flying club, not a commercial school, I would imagine the costs would be around €1500 more if it was a commercial school.....

[andre1990]

Thanks, all very interesting. And to add a further question, what about training to ATPL in Germany, is that a realistic possibility for an English speaker with basic working Germany proficiency (needs work).

[therealdooga]

At a professional (commercial) flying school, English could be an option I would say - but definitely clarify that up front! Around the major airports (Frankfurt, Munich) I guess there should be schools with English theory classes.

[Steve6443]

Concerning language proficiency, I am pretty sure you would have to show a command of german to allow you to pilot a plane and deal with ATC in that language, the background is as follows:

In germany there are 3 different Radio Licences for Aviation - BZF I, BZF II and AZF.

The BZF II is the basic licence and allows a Pilot to operate a radio station in an aviation context within German airspace in German language ONLY.

BZF I allows the Pilot to operate a radio station in an aviation context in english language - note no restriction on German airspace, hence if you're a PPL and want to fly outside of Germany, you need the BZF I.

Both of the above are identical in terms of learning - the BZF exam is a multichoice theory paper (in German!) with a pass rate of at least 75% required followed by a simulated take off and landing from an international airport including hand off to ground, taxing to and from the apron. The difference between the two is that with BZF II both the take off and landing are in German whereas with the BZF I, one of the take offs OR landing will be conducted in English, the other in German. Also, you will be given an english text and be requested to translate this into German.

AZF is the general licence and is required by ALL commercial aircrew - I don't have this licence hence I can't comment on the learning required, nor do I know whether and what any limitations would be, going straight for the AZF but nearly all flying schools train the PPL either for BZF II or I, not AZF.

As I'm a native english speaker, I asked the question whether I could just go for the BZF I and talk just in english, forget about the german phraseology but this is NOT possible, you NEED to be able to answer the german test paper correctly plus you need to be able to do an approach or landing from in German language and be able to translate an english text into german.