Definition of cross-country flying?

[Odai]

Hello,

I recently passed my PPL skills test and am now in the process of sorting out my logbook to hand in with the paperwork etc (the book I have at the moment is a mess).

I'm putting all my flights into electronic logbook software (MCCpilotlog), with the intention of getting a printout signed as opposed to sending my current logbook to the CAA. My examiner asked me to double check all the totals requested by the CAA (solo time, dual time, solo XC time etc). The software makes it a lot easier, but I've find something that isn't right.

PPL applicants need 5 hours cross country solo flying, but what is the exact definition of this? Does a cross country flight have to include a landing at an aerodrome different to that of departure? If so, I am falling well short of the required total, as the first and only times I have ever landed at a different aerodrome are when I did my QXC, which is a little under 3 hours. Would I need to make up the remaining hours before applying for a PPL, if this is the case?

If cross country simply implies a navigational flight away from the vicinity of the departure aerodrome, then I should be OK. If this is the case, is there a minimum distance required for me to be able to log it as XC time?

Any ideas? I'm struggling to find a definition in any official document. Although, until now, I was always under the impression that a cross county had to include a 'land away', and a flight that ends at the departure aerodrome is always a 'local flight', no matter the distance travelled or total time flown.

Thanks,

Odai.

EDIT: CAP 804 specifically mentions that the QXC needs to involve landings at two other aerodromes, so I'm guessing this implies the term 'cross-county' does not always refer to a land away?

[Mark 1]

When you submit your log book , they will check the minimum experience and training requirements have been met by reference to the exercise number in the remarks column. So any flight recorded as exercise 18 will count to the requirements whether it landed away or returned to base.

It's likely that your CFI will make a similar check before you get to send off your application

[fujii]

Ask your instructor, that's what he/she is paid for.

[AdamFrisch]

It used to be 25nm away from departure, but now I think it's anywhere away from home airport. In the US it's 50nm and a landing away is required.

['Chuffer' Dandridge]

I don't bother measuring distance away from base on a local, and just log A to B flying as cross country. Easier to interrogate the logbook if you need to to:ok:

Does a cross country flight have to include a landing at an aerodrome different to that of departure? If so, I am falling well short of the required total, as the first and only times I have ever landed at a different aerodrome are when I did my QXC, which is a little under 3 hours.

IMHO, the whole point of this requirement is to gain experience visiting other airfields. Your instructor should also be saying what I'm saying:ugh:

[Curtis E Carr]

From Rule FCL.010 of Annex 1 to Commission Regulation (EU) No 1178/2011:

‘Cross-country’ means a flight between a point of departure and a point of arrival following a pre-planned route, using standard navigation procedures

From paragraph 5 to section 1 to Part B to Schedule 7 of ANO 2009:

'Cross-country flight' means any flight during the course of which the aircraft is more than three nautical miles from the aerodrome of departure. Note that this last reference applies to national licences and ratings only.

[Sillert,V.I.]

I remember when planning my QXC that I knew I'd be very close to missing what was in those days a 4hr minimum solo requirement. While flying the last leg, I scribbled the earliest landing time on my chart. Glancing at the chart & my watch on final, I realised I'd be about 10 mins short.

My solution - "G-xx going around".

It saved me having to do another flight :).

[Steve6443]

I remember when planning my QXC that I knew I'd be very close to missing what was in those days a 4hr minimum solo requirement. While flying the last leg, I scribbled the earliest landing time on my chart. Glancing at the chart & my watch on final, I realised I'd be about 10 mins short.

Cool customer or what? I seem to recall I was just interested in getting from A to B, enjoying the flight and all my Math as to whether I had sufficient hours or not to get my licence was done later, back home ;-)

[Gertrude the Wombat]

IMHO, the whole point of this requirement is to gain experience visiting other airfields.
IMHO the whole point of this requirement is to practice navigation, doesn't matter whether or not you land back where you started from.

[Sillert,V.I.]

the whole point of this requirement is to gain experience visiting other airfields.
IMHO the whole point of this requirement is to practice navigation, doesn't matter whether or not you land back where you started from.

Surely it's both, hence the requirement to land at two different airfields for the QXC.

Mine was cunningly planned (not by me!) to include landing at a small GA field with a grass runway, and an international airport with controlled airspace and full ATC.

[Whopity]

Bear in mind that under EASA all solo flights must be certified in the students log by the instructor. FCL.040 (d) A student pilot shall carry on all solo cross-country flights evidence of the authorisation required by FCL.020(a).How do you propose to transfer the signatures?

[Heston]

I cant be bothered to look for the thread, but the OP has previously asked about transferring stuff from a messy log book into a new one - most of the advice was not to do so...

[taxistaxing]

What a dreadfully drafted and unwieldy document CAP 804 is!

On the question of a "cross country flight" definition I think Curtis E Carr has it:

Definitions section of CAP 804 defines cross country as follows:



Cross-country A flight between a point of departure and a point of arrival
following a pre–planned route, using standard navigation
procedures.


Which on a common sense reading presumably means everything outside the circuit. Nothing to suggest that a point of departure and point of arrival can't be one and the same.

On another point, what is the problem in principle with transferring everything into a new logbook? According to CAP 804, if you lose your logbook, you simply need to swear an affidavit confirming your hours total and this will be sufficient for counting the experience accrued towards new licenses.

As previously discussed the whole system basically relies on you being honest. The fact you are allowed to re-verify your own flying records and then swear an affidavit to this effect shows this. Therefore, so long as your new records are accurate, I can't really see a problem. Surely lots of pilots must have done this when transitioning from paper to on-line/electronic logbooks in any case?


Part I Lost Flying Log/logbook
Pilots are required under European and UK legislation to keep a log/logbook detailing their
flying in accordance with the applicable requirements.
Individuals who have lost their flying log(s)/logbook(s) and are intending to obtain further
licences/ratings on the basis of the experience that was contained in those records may set
out a replacement record to the best of their knowledge and certify that it is a true record by
obtaining a Sworn Affidavit, completed through a solicitor or Commissioner for Oaths. The
flying hours must be detailed into categories in accordance with the applicable licence
requirements and submitted with the Sworn Affidavit when any further application is made.
27 July 2012CAP 804 Part I Flight Crew Licensing: Mandatory Requirements, Policy and Guidance
Section 3 Page 5
Individuals who do not intend to obtain any further licence (i.e. ATPL holders) are not required
to obtain a Sworn Affidavit for their past flying. However, they must start a new flying log/
logbook to comply with their obligations under the law.

[taxistaxing]

Any ideas? I'm struggling to find a definition in any official document. Although, until now, I was always under the impression that a cross county had to include a 'land away', and a flight that ends at the departure aerodrome is always a 'local flight', no matter the distance travelled or total time flown.



Again, common sense reading is required I think, although the explanatory material you have to rely on is abysmal. You could fly from an airport in the South East up to Scotland and return to your departure point without landing away (range, and bladder, permitting!). Equally you could fly from (say) Biggin Hill to Rochester in about 10 minutes. It would be ludicrous if the second could be cross country but the first couldn't.

[Level Attitude]

Bear in mind that under EASA all solo flights must be certified in the students log by the instructor.

Whopity you are mistaken - Nowhere in Part-FCL does it say any flight needs to be countersigned
in the Student's Log Book.

However the UK CAA's EASA PPL Application Form (SRG1105A) does require an ATO's Head of Training
to confirm that both the PPL Course has been completed, and that the hours in the Log Book are accurate.
As the Log Book is required to be sent to CAA then most HoTs will sign it to say total hours are correct (but not individual entries).



FCL.040 (d) A student pilot shall carry on all solo cross-country flights evidence of the authorisation required by FCL.020(a).

I don't think any Instructor would sign a Log Book for something which has not yet happened/been completed.

The above requires a Form to be carried by the student.
Something like:
I J Bloggs (Flying Instructor) authorise A N Other (Student Pilot) to fly
from A to B, routing via X then Y on DATE in Aircraft Type/Reg.
Signature, etc

I would also suggest that solo students should carry their Medical and Photo ID with them.

The above will get them used to carrying the required personal documentation (License, Medical, ID) for
any flight as PIC once they have their own License.

[Level Attitude]

I'm putting all my flights into electronic logbook software (MCCpilotlog), with the intention of getting a printout signed as opposed to sending my current logbook to the CAA. My examiner asked me to double check all the totals requested by the CAA (solo time, dual time, solo XC time etc). The software makes it a lot easier, but I've find something that isn't right.

Odai,
Liaise with your School/Instructor.
You need to ensure that your totals match the totals they have
in your Training Record.
They will have to sign to say your Log Book is accurate.

NB: As they also have to state you have completed the PPL Course, and
should have done this prior to your Skills Test then you should stop
worrying about your X-Country requirements.

[Odai]

Thanks for all the responses guys.

I've spoken with them and they've said it's fine to log flights away from the circuit, which means I have plenty of solo XC time.

WRT the logbook, about half of the people I've asked suggest transferring the entries to a new logbook, including my examiner. The software I'm using is free for the basic version, and will make printouts in certain popular formats. As all the flights are already in there, I'll just make the printout and take it with my original logbook when I go to sort out the paperwork. If all is good, I can just get the pages signed and send it all off. If not, I can just send the original logbook and destroy the printouts. So I'm covered either way.

Luckily, all my flights (bar one, my first trial lesson) were at the same school. And, apart from the test and first trial lesson, they were all with the same instructor. So it should be really easy to get it all signed again. :p

Again, common sense reading is required I think, although the explanatory material you have to rely on is abysmal. You could fly from an airport in the South East up to Scotland and return to your departure point without landing away (range, and bladder, permitting!). Equally you could fly from (say) Biggin Hill to Rochester in about 10 minutes. It would be ludicrous if the second could be cross country but the first couldn't.

Agreed, there was far more work involved in some of my nav flights without a land away than those that did include one.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

The above will get them used to carrying the required personal documentation (License, Medical, ID) for
any flight as PIC once they have their own License.
Oh, are we a police state now, do we have to carry ID with us these days? Since when?

[dont overfil]

Quote:
The above will get them used to carrying the required personal documentation (License, Medical, ID) for
any flight as PIC once they have their own License.
Oh, are we a police state now, do we have to carry ID with us these days? Since when?

Try getting back airside at any airport with scheduled traffic.

D.O.

[Level Attitude]

Oh, are we a police state now
No

do we have to carry ID with us these days?
To go flying - Yes

Since when?
Since 17 Sept 2012 when the UK implemented EASA
See FCL.045 a) and b)

FCL.045 Obligation to carry and present documents
(a) A valid licence and a valid medical certificate shall always be carried by the pilot when exercising the privileges of the licence.
(b) The pilot shall also carry a personal identification document containing his/her photo.
(c) A pilot or a student pilot shall without undue delay present his/her flight time record for inspection upon request by an authorised representative of a competent authority.
(d) A student pilot shall carry on all solo cross-country flights evidence of the authorisation required by FCL.020(a).

[taxistaxing]

Try getting back airside at any airport with scheduled traffic.



At SEN in the summer (which is now SEN Intl, of course :rolleyes:) I flew in and made the mistake of taking my bottle of water in with me to pay my landing fee. Of course on leaving I had to go through security with the passengers, was searched thoroughly for weapons/drugs and had to leave my water behind as it was over 200ml!

I'd flown in from an unlicensed field, and had arrived airside (obviously) so could have brought my own guns or drugs in with me had I been so minded. :D

Telling the high-viz jacket brigade you are in a private aircraft makes no difference to the amount of common sense applied.

[Steve6443]

I flew into Bratislava during the middle of last year, was my first real experience of a "major" international airport and, having stayed overnight and visited the city, I arrived back at the airport, was checked in the GA terminal and was found to be carrying a swiss pocket knife in my pilot's bag - basically I had it there to use the bottle opener extension part as a lever (sometimes "the Incredible Hulk" seemed to have tightened down the oil dipstick on the rentals I have flown) and occasionally, infrequently, nay, rarely, to open a bottle of the old amber nectar.......

The security guys insisted I couldn't take it on the plane with me in case I stabbed myself to death with it....... :ugh::ugh::ugh:

I pointed out that, as the sole occupant and pilot of a private plane, if I wanted to commit suicide, I didn't need a knife. Needless to say they took the knife from me. You couldn't make it up......

[Zulu Alpha]

The problem is that you could take a water bottle full of something other than water and/or a Swiss army knife and leave it airside for someone about to board a scheduled flight.

It sounds far fetched, but suppose you were of Afghan or Yemeni extraction, should you be allowed through with "water" or a knife?

The problem is that it isn't possible to specify who is allowed to and who isn't so everyone is prevented.

It is a shame that they don't have padded bags available so that you can post the item back home.

[Steve6443]

The problem is that you could take a water bottle full of something other than water and/or a Swiss army knife and leave it airside for someone about to board a scheduled flight.

The thing is, the GA terminal is about a quarter of a mile from the tourist terminal and, after being cleared, you are taken directly from the GA terminal to YOUR plane via a minibus which is ONLY used for GA so there is no possibility of "contamination", as the security wallahs put it.....