I need your advice regarding volunteering [Archive]

Flyaways

17th Jan 2013, 18:24

As you may remember I explained a few days ago about the volunteering programme I was trialling. Well, here is an update.

I turned up today (Thursday) and it was snowy and foggy. Obviously there was no planes that would come in today. I met the pilots (the instructors) who were very friendly, but were bored due to the 4 days worth of snow stopping them from doing anything!

Then I was given a tour of the clubhouse and restaurant. We started the day doing odd jobs- cleaning the area of rubbish, dusting, cleaning toilets etc, the sort of stuff you do before opening.

Then I got some great news. The volunteers get to do the washing up... Okay I thought, i'll give it ago.

I washed a few cups up that had been used by the team at the airfield. As you may expect the restaurant was empty most of the day. I spent most of the day standing around waiting for stuff to wash up. I thought about what members of this forum said about getting more out of it than just the flying lessons. I had to wait in the restaurant and do odd jobs. I wasn't allowed to serve, I wasn't allowed to take food to tables, I wasn't allowed to clear tables. I had to wash up, and only wash up. So I spent about 4 hours standing at the sink waiting for things to come in to be washed up. Bearing in mind the restaurant was pretty empty (I'm talking about 1 person an hour, if that), I had a lot of waiting.

I had lunch and then went through to the club room. I played pool with one of the pilots (He was much better than me, and he put this down to his 4 days of non stop pool playing :E). I had a chat to one of them, I asked things like do/ have any of you worked for an airline, what's it like instructing etc. and I found out some cool stuff.

Then I went back into the restaurant where there was a bit of washing up to do. I did the washing up. Up until this point it was mainly cups, saucers and cutlery I was washing. Then some plates came in and I realised how disgusting this job was. I didn't have gloves or anything, I had to scrap half eaten food into the bin then clean the dirty plates. I don't want to sound stuck up but I didn't enjoy it. There was cold food floating round the sink and everything, yuck.

So then the washing up starting to build up, and I was washing as fast as I could and filling up the drying board. Once it was full up I had to put the still wet glasses, plates etc in the right places just to clear more space.

I finished the shift at 3 and I was asked if I would like to continue with the scheme. I asked about field work & helping maintenance but the cafe manager said the pilots usually help with maintenance as they know what to do. He told me the volunteers only do the washing up, but if I showed that I wanted to improve (Improve on washing up?!) then I could be given more responsibility. This doesn't result in more flying hours per hour worked though, it just means you get more shifts. I can only do 4 shifts a week anyway so after I reach that point it won't be benefiting me any more.

My question to you is, is it really worth it? It it worth me doing a disgusting washing up job in the hope that a pilot might walk though and ask if I want to sit in the back seat. Obviously I'd love to, but I wouldn't get to for a while until I am known well by the pilots.

I could get a part time job to fund the PPL, I wouldn't get any back seat experience but it would be a better job and I would get more flying hours per hour worked.

I don't wish to sound stuck up but this volunteering programme is not what was explained to me. Ok, it might be good if you wanted to get a few lessons, but working 48 hours washing up for an hours flight isn't in my eyes the best way.

What would you guys do?

(It was the washing up that put me off. [I emptied a bin and got bin juice on my shoe :suspect:]. If it was litter picking for the whole time i'd be happy doing that. If it was washing the planes all day, i'd be happy, but cleaning plates with half eaten food just isn't for me)

I still have the option to carry on, so I am still deciding.

EddieHeli

17th Jan 2013, 19:18

If you don't like the work you are being asked to do and it makes you miserable you'll start to hate it and that will rub off on your love of flying.
Life is too short, get a better paying job that you enjoy and pay for your own lessons. Doesn't stop you hanging around the airfield when you are not working and getting to know everyone and everything.
Look for a better paying job than minimum wage. Easier said than done I know but imagine if you put the same number of hours into getting that well paying job as you did hanging around to wash a few dishes how the results might pan out.
Things tend to work out for people who are prepared to put the effort in, and this volunteering thing is obviously designed for the benefit of the flying school not the person doing the volunteering. The same amount of effort expended elswhere might bring greater rewards.
That's my tuppenceworth anyway.

Edited to add that whenever I went flying in my own plane with spare seats I would offer to take people with me if they were hanging around the club. The only person to refuse was a spotter who treated me like royalty as I was a pilot who actually took the trouble to speak to him, but wouldn't come flying as the thought of it scared him witless

RTN11

17th Jan 2013, 19:20

This all sounds a bit dodgy. This is well beyond volunteering, this sounds like a job. How old are you, and what would the pay work out at per hour for what you've worked? The club seem to be trying to exploit the employment law and save themselves having to pay any tax or NI for you, so I would be careful if I were you.

Beyond that, stop complaining. We've all done our fair share of crap jobs to make ends meet, there's nothing wrong with pot washing. If you've got that much of a problem, provide your own gloves, but beyond that just man up and get on with it, this is what the real world is like I'm afraid, doing things you might not want to do.

taxistaxing

17th Jan 2013, 19:38

Beyond that, stop complaining. We've all done our fair share of crap jobs to make ends meet, there's nothing wrong with pot washing. If you've got that much of a problem, provide your own gloves, but beyond that just man up and get on with it, this is what the real world is like I'm afraid, doing things you might not want to do.

Generally I'd agree with the above, but not in this context.

There's a fine line between 'volunteering' and exploitation. Sounds like you're falling under the latter category, in this situation.

Volunteer at a flying club by all means. I did work experience at one aged 14. The work was directly linked to flying: cleaning aircraft; working in ops; helping process bookings etc. I was given about 3 hours worth of free flying, backseating and some stick time. Not bad at that age.

I assume you're young (teenager?), just walk away. What you've described is beyond the pale.

Get a (paying) part time job as it gives you money in your pocket, commercial awareness, and understanding of how the big bad world works at an early age.

fatmanmedia

17th Jan 2013, 19:50

ok, what you have described is not what volunteering is all about, volunteering should be you working in a role that helps them achive the company/organisation objectives and you gaining expererance and skills that help you. Working as a dish cleaner is not that, in fact they should have a machine to clean the dishes as hand washing will not clean them to a standard that is now expected by the FSA. I digress, you should have a Volunteer agreement signed by yourself and the company/organisation, this agreement is like a employment contract in regards to what they expect of you, what you expect of them, your H&S guidelines, procedures for complants. who you report to and other matters that affect you.

If you wanted to continue you should ask that your role be defined and provide the above agreement. I personally would find it troublesome to hear that the aircraft where maintained by pilots rather than by trained maintenance personal.

If you where gettign paid to clean the dishes then i would agree with RTN11 but you are providing your time to help them, you time is worth something make them aware of that.

fats

Flyaways

17th Jan 2013, 20:14

@EddieHeli- Yeah I think it is designed to help the flying school as it works out at £3 an hour if you use the retail price of the lessons. Probably more like £2 an hour if you were to use the cost price of the lesson.

If a pilot walked up to me and said 'Do you want to sit in the spare seat' i'd jump at the chance!

@RTN11 If it was a paid job that I agreed to do (I was under the impression that I would be doing a range of tasks) then I wouldn't be complaining. It works out at roughly £3 an hour, below minimum wage.

@taxistaxing Yep i'm 17.

@fatmanmedia They do have a dish washer but you have to wash it up by hand first, they only use the dishwasher to dry the pots& pans. The aircraft are maintained by trained people, but if they need help they would ask the pilots instead of the volunteers.

taxistaxing

17th Jan 2013, 21:19

Volunteer agreement signed by yourself and the company/organisation, this agreement is like a employment contract in regards to what they expect of you, what you expect of them, your H&S guidelines, procedures for complants. who you report to and other matters that affect you.

No! A volunteering agreement is radically different from an employment contract and it is misleading to suggest otherwise. As a volunteer you are not employed and a whole plethora of entitlements that come with "employee" status are missing.

A volunteering agreement is akin to a statement of best practise by the organisation concerned. By definition, as a volunteer, you are not entering into a contractual arrangement with the organisation to whom you are volunteering your services.

tomtytom

17th Jan 2013, 22:54

"My question to you is, is it really worth it? It it worth me doing a disgusting washing up job in the hope that a pilot might walk though and ask if I want to sit in the back seat. Obviously I'd love to, but I wouldn't get to for a while until I am known well by the pilots.

I could get a part time job to fund the PPL, I wouldn't get any back seat experience but it would be a better job and I would get more flying hours per hour worked."

I went flying last week with a friend from work who is half way through training then back seats where taken with a girl who is in air cadets and a chap who had come into the school to ask about flying lessons. Upon landing he went straight into the club and practically paid for a PPL package. When i started out people oftern took my flying (not with a instructor just as a passenger) and i think its good to be able to sit back watch someone else fly and take it all in. I remeber how excited and how enjoyable those experiances where and will always let willing new learners come for a ride if i have spare seats. Obviosuly you treat them like any normal passenger and state that it isnt a lesson and just a private flight etc etc.

Which brings me to the next point, where are you base? north england or down south?

riverrock83

18th Jan 2013, 00:52

Me - I hate washing dishes. But someone has to do it and at age 18 I got a job which involved some days washing dishes for hours at a time. Is it worth it? Its probably good for you to do work like this. You can work out your own system, find the problems and solve them, keep your brain active, stop being embarrassed at asking for help. If you can show that you can do this, full of enthusiasm, then it will be noticed and you will likely get to do more interesting things - but that is only with their agreement. And this isn't going to improve your flying. You should be going into this with your eyes open.

As I said in a previous thread, as you are doing something for a reward - its technically not volunteering and so you should be being paid at least minimum wage. If you aren't being paid minimum wage, you are being exploited.

See Volunteering England - Volunteering England (http://www.volunteering.org.uk/component/gpb/volunteeragreements) for volunteer agreements, but I'd be surprised if they have one of these, as they are really a statement of policies as they can't look like a contract. If its a contract - you need paid.

Only you can decide whether its worth it. See if you can get agreement to do other things when its quiet, but it sounds like you have just taken in a big gulp of the real world!

Note - you are unlikely to be allowed to serve or make food as you wont have a food hygiene certificate, and as they don't know anything about you, they aren't going to give you access to the till.

RTN11

18th Jan 2013, 01:05

Perhaps I was unduly harsh in my post.

However, a quick google search came up with this https://www.gov.uk/national-minimum-wage-rates showing minimum wage at £3.68 for your age.

At your age I was working for £3.28 an hour, and having national insurance deducted so it worked out even less.

So you have to decide whether you want to go out and find a real job, which probably won't be any better than washing dishes, will be longer hours and more of a commitment, or whether you are happy with this "volunteer" agreement. Still not entirely sure of the legality of this arrangement, but they have been clear what they expect from you, so the ball is firmly in your court as to whether you want to put in the graft or look elsewhere.

If I were in your shoes I would persevere with the volunteer programme. It's going to get you exposure to the flying club environment, and you will meet a lot of pilots, instructors and owners who will ultimately be able to take you flying on your days off once you've built a friendship with them.

Also, if you are able to impress them you may well find yourself able to move on to better things, or when you turn 18 getting a proper job with them behind the bar or whatever they have.

Pilot DAR

18th Jan 2013, 04:13

Half and half...

Yes, you should be prepared to work hard to earn your way through life, and this includes flying. You can do the math, if you're satisfied with the ratio of the reward, then you should be fine. Of course you're going to be given the ick jobs, a lot of us were. I did my share of ick jobs, but remind yourself that the next person to come along after you, gets the ick job, and you move up. At lease you have the job.

If you genuinely feel exploited, that's not good. But keep it realistic, you're worth 3-5 per hours, and the plane is 100 plus and hour. 20 or so hours of slaving for an hour of flying.

Now, when your work changes to actually be maeningful work ON the plane, things change again. you want that work, that's how you learn about planes. I spent a lot of my early days, on my back filthy under a plane, cleaning it, and thought myself lucky. I flew a lot in return, and I really felt that I won the deal - I never counted the hours, just the owner of the plane's satisfaction - They did not seem to count the hours either, so I won.

Funny now, I own two planes, and can't find a single kid who would like to trade cleaning them for flying - go figure, I guess they're in the computer flight simulator instead!

The plane owner just wants the job done, and no grumpiness. If you leave him smiling, he should leave you too smiling too. Hopefully you learn along the way - that's why you're doing it -right?

airpolice

18th Jan 2013, 07:26

Maybe you should find out what the turnover rate is in people in your position at this club.

Are you really looking at a good opportunity or are just the current, in a long line, of suckers?

vancouv

18th Jan 2013, 09:19

I wouldn't normally reply to something like this, but I thought I'd just add my experience, for what it's worth.

The first 'proper' job I got was washing up in a small family run restaurant. I was 15 and paid 25p an hour plus lunch (it was a long time ago :ok:). I didn't particularly like washing up, but I think it taught me lots of useful stuff about responsibility and organisation - at 15 I'd never had to be responsible for anything, really.

Since then I've worked or volunteered in a number of situations where you have to 'muck in' - ie you do whatever needs doing, often things you might not really want to do. These things can lead on to other more interesting opportunities you wouldn't have got otherwise.

You just need to weigh up what you're getting out of something in the long term. Being forced to do something you wouldn't normally do is nearly always a good thing, in my experience, as it frees your mind to encompass all sorts of new experiences.

Having said all that, there's always a point a which you think 'Mmmmmm, I don't think is going anywhere' and it's time to move on. The skill is trying to work out when that point arrives.

Aerials

18th Jan 2013, 09:31

Hi Flyaways. Putting aside legalities and wages balanced against hours et al, as Pilot DAR hinted, there are icky jobs and this sounds like one of 'em. That said, I wonder if you are being tested in some way? Y'know, you pull the plug after a few days and you'll have your card marked as someone who couldn't stand the icky jobs to eventually make progress or was simply 'above himself'. The answer to this puzzle is to ask to see if there is definitely going to be light at the end of the tunnel. :O
Icky jobs will come later too! Pilot DAR's local kids won't get on their backs under the aircraft to clean and you'll get that to that stage too, imagine what it's like in winter lying on wet ashphalt with freezing water running up your arm to your armpit! :eek:
Even further, some 'plum' jobs have their fair share of not-so-nice aspects. All part of the world of work I'm afraid! Whatever you choose to do, I and I'm sure others here wish you well. :p

Flyaways

18th Jan 2013, 09:51

BackPacker

18th Jan 2013, 09:57

I feel like I'm missing a bit of the story here.

Just to add a bit of background, I've been volunteering for a lot of things since I was 16. Mostly in the scouts movement, but also at sports clubs, a first aid club and most recently a charity that offers experience flights to sick and handicapped children. Anything from washing the dishes and cleaning the toilets to being the chairman of the board. I also did an MBA thesis on motivation of volunteers, essentially applying motivational models (Herzbert and similar) to volunteer organizations.

First question I have: What sort of organization is this? Is this a commercial school with paid staff for (nearly) everything, or is it a club which runs on predominantly volunteer labor?

Second question: What experience do you have in being active (even as a "consumer", like a cub scout, junior sports player or something) in a volunteer-run club environment?

Third question: How did you find this job? Is it a club that has a lot of experience in bringing in and training volunteers, or is it a commercial school where you applied for a position as volunteer, and did they not know what that was and how to handle it?

Depending on this, my answer would fall somewhere between "you're being exploited" and "suck it up, kid".

If it's a commercial school, with paid staff (engineers, instructors, restaurant staff and so forth) and there is some sort of scheme where you put in 20 hours of volunteer labor for an hour of free flying, then you're essentially being exploited. You do not have any labor protection, minimum wage guarantee or the ability to spend your "income" as you see fit: The fictive amount of money you "earned" is held in escrow against your future flying. I don't know labor laws in your country, but it might be fully illegal too.

On the other hand, if you're participating in a volunteer-run club where nobody (or virtually nobody) gets paid, then you're just going to have to suck it up. Even in a full-volunteer environment the dishes have to be washed up (not to mention the toilets), and even in a full-volunteer environment the newest volunteer starts at the bottom. Furthermore, even in a full-volunteer environment certain jobs (like waiting on tables and fixing airplanes) require experience and sometimes even formal qualifications. So you may not qualify for these jobs yet, and in fact may not even qualify for certain jobs until you've had a significant amount of formal training.

Add to that that if there's no flying because of the weather, a lot of interesting and rewarding jobs are simply not there. That leaves time for the rotten jobs that normally get skipped when it's busy (picking up cigarette butts out of the shrubs is one such typical job - although snow kind-of prevents that), and it means that lots of people are sitting around being bored. And thus are trying to find jobs for themselves and others to do.

Last thing: In both volunteer and professional organizations, with privileges comes responsibilities. A new guy is normally not given any privileges before he has shown that he is willing to accept those responsibilities. Whining about your job on a public forum after the first day is typically not a sign of a responsible employee/volunteer.

(Oh, and if you think washing dishes is an icky job, try changing out a toilet bowl that's been in continuous use for 20+ years. One of the jobs at my club that I volunteered for a while ago. The trick is not to breathe during the most gruesome tasks, and washing your hands very thoroughly afterwards.)

I think I am going to leave it. I've found a retail job which i'm going to apply for and i'll try and get as many hours as I can, and the wage will be around £5-6 an hour. I know what retail is like, i've had a job in that sector before and I didn't like it, but i'm willing to give it another go to pay for lessons.

Guess what. Work isn't always fun. That's why they pay you for it. If it would be great fun all the time, they would find people to do it for free.

Flyaways

18th Jan 2013, 12:00

It is a commercial organisation- all staff are paid apart from the volunteers.

I found the position because I emailed them to ask them if they do any kind of scheme that enables me to work in return for lessons.

They have a few volunteers, mostly teenagers around 15 years old (ish). All the other staff are paid.

The fact is was snowing did mean no planes were coming in. I know there was a lack of jobs available but I had to wash up anything that was dirty. I helped with the general cleaning jobs too, but there was only a few. They made it clear that I would be doing the washing up, so on busy days I would be doing the washing up constantly, probably non stop if you include returning the dried stuff back to it's place. They also said I would only be working on weekends because they don't need me on weekdays as it isn't busy.

Now to me, this sounds like it is busy on weekends which is when they would need me. This means I will always be washing up and if I had any breaks it would be only around 15 minutes or so, which isn't long enough to go for a flight (I assume).

Don't get me wrong, if it was a voluntary run club and I felt that the work I did was genuinely appreciated then I would stick it out.

Guess what. Work isn't always fun. That's why they pay you for it. If it would be great fun all the time, they would find people to do it for free.

I know it's not fun, especially because it's retail. I'm happy to stick it out at a retail job where I am paid though.

Whining about your job on a public forum after the first day is typically not a sign of a responsible employee/volunteer.

I would argue that i'm not showing that i'm irresponsible- if I was I would have probably said the flying school's name or something. There isn't anything irresponsible about asking for advice and keeping it as anonymous as possible.:)

Also you said about this being a public forum, I'm aware of this and I have mixed up a few details on here such as the days, flight prices (Although not by much), locations, activities etc but the general gist is the same. If any reading this belongs to a flying club who has a newly started volunteer, I'm probably not that person. There are a lot of flying clubs around so please don't confront any volunteers you meet to see if I am them!!

Also, if you are running a volunteering scheme at your airfield, make sure you learn from this thread! It would probably be a bit more interesting if they offered, say a 15 minute flight after each shift (That you can either have after the shift or you can save them up for a longer flight), instead of having to work 4 shifts for a 30 minute flight.

On the upside, I have learnt that when I get my PPL i'll walk around the airfield before I go up and offer any spare seats to anyone who looks interested!:ok:

dublinpilot

18th Jan 2013, 13:08

I think I am going to leave it. I've found a retail job which i'm going to apply for and i'll try and get as many hours as I can, and the wage will be around £5-6 an hour. I know what retail is like, i've had a job in that sector before and I didn't like it, but i'm willing to give it another go to pay for lessons.

Maybe on the days I have flying lessons (when I get some money to start buying them) I could arrive an hour early or something and sit in the club house/ restaurant and chat to pilots and owners and ask them any questions I have- try and build up friendship that way.

I'm sure it will work out in the end!

Seems like a good plan to me.

At £5 per hour * 48 hours that you have to work in the cafe to get a flight, you'll have earned £240. That should cover two flights or there abouts. Added to the fact that you at least know what you're doing and don't dislike it as much.

It also give you an employment history, and presumably a reference at the end of it.

You won't always get to do jobs that you enjoy, and I personally don't think washing up is that icky, but if you don't like it and have a better alternative, then why not take it?

If what you really want is a backseat ride, then why spend your time in a kitchen hiding away from everyone other than kitchen staff, hoping someone might ask you to come along? If you want something ask for it.

Put a notice up on the notice board explaining that you are about to commence training and would be grateful for anyone that might allow you to come along if they have an empty seat. You might not get any answers, but I think it a lot more likely than if you're stuck in a kitchen away from the public.

If you are happy to wash planes in return for a flight, then put that on the notice board. As on pprune and other please for a spare seat.

In short, if you want something then ask for it, and think what you can do to make it more beneficial to the person who can offer it. Don't be hiden away and quite and hope that someone will unprompted offer you want you want.

I've never offered a stranger a flight. I always tend to assume that others at the airport have just come back from flying or are about to go (Why else would they be there!) Occasionally there is someone at the fence with a small child, but I'm somewhat cautious about brining a small child that I've no knowledge of, even if their parents are on board too.

Only on one occasion did I ever find someone who clearly was looking for a flight, but unfortunately I had just returned from one. I strongly considered going flying again just to bring him, but I had other committments and wasn't sure I could be back in time. But it goes to show that if you show what you want rather than hiding away, your chances improve greatly.

dp

Flyaways

18th Jan 2013, 13:44

Great advice DublinPilot thanks.

Once I start a part time job and I've got the money to get lessons i'll stick a notice up, hopefully may get some replies if I offer something back like washing the plane.

Thanks :ok:

taybird

18th Jan 2013, 14:16

I have done my fair share of volunteering at airfields, plus some pretty dull jobs to support my flying habit.

At some airfields you can volunteer to provide services such as fire crew or air/ground radio service. Sometimes these are "paid" sometimes not. At one place I know they credit £25 to your flying account for a half day shift. This equates to around 10 minutes instructional time in an aeroplane.

I've cleaned quite a few aeroplanes both club and privately owned and earned between £20 and £50 per aeroplane.

I've worked as general dogsbody and helped move aeroplanes around hangars, swept hangars, painted beams, emptied bins, washed up plates, mowed grass, held spanners, acted as run-about, refueled aeroplanes and tidied up sheds. None of this is paid but it has resulted in opportunities to fly all kinds of interesting aeroplanes with some really good people, plus the bar time afterwards is just as valuable. People recognise hard working hangar rats, wherever they are working at the time, and will reward when it's least expected.

I've also taken second or even third paid jobs in kitchens (washing up!), bar work and cleaning. I've milked cows which can be a genuinely sh1tty job... I've worked on fruit farms and in a petrol station to earn money to do what I really want to do. Being snobby about what you will and won't do at 17 probably won't get you the same privileges that I have had, so it's down to what you are willing to put up with. I don't feel that I "put up" with any of my jobs - I tend to try to do the best job that I can and take pride in doing that. Anything unpleasant is just a part of work, and that is real life. If it's dirty, you can wash it off and if it's dull you can set yourself targets to make it more interesting. If it's hard, you can work harder just to make sure that you have the time to do the fun stuff.

phiggsbroadband

18th Jan 2013, 14:41

Hi Flyaways, I think you should keep on with the volunteering at the club whilst your other job comes allong, at least to see how the first flight goes.

The only snag I see about taking a rear seat, as ballast, is that most PPL training flights are in 2 seater aircraft, with PPL and Instructor only. 4 seater aircraft are only used for post PPLs who are undergoing type ratings, so the instruction will be all about those differences. I have acted as ballast in my training years, but it was a rare occurance, and involved many Touch and Goes, and Stall, Spin Awareness.

I hope you have spoken to all the Instructors at your club, and mentioned that you are available to act as ballast, and also tell the same to the office staff.

Best of luck, and keep reading the books...

cockney steve

18th Jan 2013, 21:34

Flyaways, I find your attitude a bit disturbing.
You expect to have people put themselves out for you,( some would say "a bit precious")
So, Mummy waited on you all your life? did all your "nasty" washing -up?
did all your laundry and ironing? cleans the skidders out of the bog for you?

Welcome to adulthood. Grown-ups do this for others, they even change ****ty nappies and clean asses and not just for babies either (senile incontinence/disabilities etc. They get on with it, learn that life just isn't a bed of roses and some really foul jobs just arent well -paid.

Re-dishes...Hot water dissolves grease and kills germs....what's hard about scraping the leftovers into a bin/tipping juices/gravy down the sink instead of your lovely shoes?

At 13 years old, I worked the summer-holidays as "ballboy" on a fairground Bingo -stall 8.30 AM start and close between 8PM and Midnight.....then help put the shutters up and cycle 4 miles home :ooh: Lunch was 1/2 hour, AFTER all the "men" had been and invariably it meant egg on toast or something similar as main meals had gone....I didn't whinge or complain or make out it was all beneath me...a quiet period saw me having to clean the Boss' car and he was delighted that I bought an old toothbrush from home to clean the intricate chrome-work that was bunged up with dirty polish....guess what?

I wound-up at the end of the season , in charge of one of the stalls or a kiddie's roundabout, or even in the cash-kiosk building piles of pennies etc.to hand quickly to the "punters"(sixpences for the juke -box)....Yes, it was tiring, sometimes boring, often tedious ,but I saw a lot, learned a lot and was respected by the people I worked for,-My Dad was proud of me (Mum had left home sometime before) I was paid a pittance , worked totally illegal hours even in those days...but I learned self-reliance and independence as well.

Don't act hastily and burn your bridges....I'm sure you can make the job more effective and efficient (the net is your friend-look up "cleaning dishes in a cafe" or "restaurant dish-washing" ) -get creative in your search and learn about food-handling and hygiene requirements. SHOW a willingness to learn and adapt OUTSIDE your comfort-zone. the maturity of attitude and application will make you stand out from your peers- you aren't the only "volunteer", are you? - so be the bright-willing-adaptable-knowledgeable go-getter....even if your direct boss doesn't acknowledge it, others WILL notice ,as another poster commented, it'll come back at the most unexpected times.

If you secure the retail job, the same ground-rules apply- make it your business to know your product/service better than your colleagues If the customers seek you out specifically,or their friends have been recommended because of your prescence, you're doing it right!

Just remember, Rome wasn't built in a day!...I,m minded of an old joke... the Chairman is in his Office with a view over the factory buildings-standing next to him is a young lad. he's talking to a man in an Overall-coat...."I want my lad to start at the bottom and work his way up.....
then this afternoon......" :)

Wish you luck-remember, I wouldn't waste the time/energy posting if I didn't think you were worth it!

Pilot DAR

18th Jan 2013, 22:07

Cockney Steve, great post! Particularly the last line - Pay attention Flyaways...

In my collection of old stories, I found one, which I would like to relate.

To preface this story, I will tell you that the work I was doing as the "baggage cop" was was lowly and unpaid in the first place. I sometimes got to ride the flights as a jump seat "passenger" in exchange. This took place back about 1980, when those kind of things were allowed. I worked for Worldways airline, in an excellent job (as a paid employee) for five years, and left on excellent terms.

I looked up the former owner, Roy Moore, only a few years back, and had several very nice visits with him and his wife, before he passed away. I was one of three people invited to give a eulogy as his funeral, with one of the others being the famous Max Ward, of Wardair. Am I ever glad I volunteered, and stuck out the icky work, is sure was worth it!

Here's the true story, which was a part of my eulogy....

Cleaning the holds early in my career

I started my employment with Worldways in 1981. Roy Moore was the iconic airline executive, perhaps to be seen occasionally, but much too important to be spoken to – Mr. Moore was just too important to be interrupted by the employees (like me) whose role could be found in the shadow of the bottom rung of the corporate ladder. For months, Mr. Moore remained the grand master, whose circle never intersected mine.

My duties at Worldways would best be described by what I was called by those who worked directly above me: “Baggage cop”. I was to simply watch baggage. If something was wrong, I was to tell Worldways staff, or Air Canada supervisors, but never bother the Air Canada ramp guys, or the union would file a grievance against me. This went along fairly well for a while, and obviously was working, because flights whose baggage loading I watched, had many fewer losses – this was being tracked. I felt that in some small way, I was important to Mr. Moore’s grand operation.

Along the way, I learned that I could talk to the Air Canada ramp staff, without causing labour unrest, and that I could deal with minor problems with no upset. One recurring problem seemed to be that the nets inside the plug cargo hold doors were not being put up in Toronto, and as a result, upon arrival at the destination, the bags would have shifted, and blocked the inward opening doors. This created hours of delays and difficulty at the destinations, and just had to be made better.

Word came down to me that I was to assure that the nets were always installed correctly. I did not know what correctly was, having never actually been allowed to set foot in the holds of our aircraft. On the next occasion, I asked the baggage handler to attach the net, and he replied that he could not. When he realized that I did not know what he was talking about, he asked me up into the hold to see what he was talking about. Once I understood the reason, all the grunge in the floor tracks, I realized what the problem was. I told the handler to do his best, and I’d find the solution.

I started asking around, and everyone to whom I spoke told me that it was not their job to clean the holds. It turned out that this was one of those jobs which had never been assigned. I realized that it would be easier to just do it, than try to get someone else to do it. I had the aircraft’s flight schedule, so I knew when each aircraft was idle. I went down in my off hours, wearing my dirty clothes, and asked the maintenance chief if I could clean the holds. I got the look of “If you want to do that thankless task, go ahead”. I knew that nobody would ever notice, but the problem would be solved.

The forth of our 707’s was in the former Wardair hanger when I launched into my cleaning task. I was scrubbing in the hold, water dribbling out the door when I heard a thump thump on the outside of the fuselage. I turned off the water, and poked my head out the door.

I was face to face with Roy Moore, giving a group of well dressed guests the grand tour. Our circles were crossing, and I was not where I was supposed to be, and looked pretty sloppy. Mr. Moore looked at me and asked “You’re Watson aren’t you? Don’t you work over at the terminal?” I was surprised that he even knew who I even was. I had the feeling that I’d been caught, so I just explained what I was doing, and why.

Roy smiled, turned to his guests, and said “That’s what I like to see, someone who just fixes the problem. Keep it up.” Before I could formulate a reply, Roy had turned away, and the tour continued.

A week or so later, I was summoned to the office, a place of importance, where I hardly ever ventured. I was offered a job in the flight operations department, assisting in the scheduling of flights. This represented quite a promotion, and I eagerly accepted. After that, my circle intersected Roy’s frequently, and I am a much better person for it. Roy found many ways to harness my interest in aviation, and it was my privilege to work for him.

taxistaxing

18th Jan 2013, 22:13

Pilot DAR

19th Jan 2013, 03:43

What does washing up have to do with flying? Ask yourself, what beneficial experience will you derive?

People who own and fly planes also wash up - I do! I wash my planes, my car, the windows, my household dishes, and lots of other things. I never ask another person to do a task for me, which I am unwilling to do for myself (other than dentistry). But someone who would like to volunteer in my organization in exchange for experience, should be willing to do what I would, and do do. I wash up, and I scrub my toilets. I won't ask someone else to do that, but I would be incredibly impressed with someone who demonstrated that they were not too good for it either.

I'm a volunteer firefighter. I thought I should not have to scrub toilets in the fire station, as that should be someone else's job. I was wrong, it was my job, because one day, I came in to find the chief, with 41 years on our department, scrubbing a urinal. So, if it is his job, it must be mine too, and I occasionally now I do it too.

If a young eager kid who asked what he could do in trade for a flight, would not wash my plane in trade, the flight would be short. If he washed the plane, it'd be a good flight. If I found the washroom in the hanger cleaned too, he would have many good flights. (that's why I allow myself many good flights - my very clean hanger washroom!)

17 year olds will go very far in life; a) learning not to think of themselves as too good for any job that anyone else would do, and b) demonstrating that attitude to decision makers, so as to excel beyond the others who will be competing against them for those few extra good opportunities life may hold.

That all being said, yes there is a balance, and no one should be, or feel, taken advantage of either. The reward must be commensurate with the effort.

Flyaways

19th Jan 2013, 13:02

Thanks for all the replies. I've read through all of them, even Pilot DAR's life story :zzz: (It was actually interesting :ok:)

I have decided that I am not going to continue with it because being in the kitchen isn't going to get me exposure to the pilots/ owners. As I said before, if it was odd jobs around the airfield (for example getting rid of the ice in the hanger, sweeping snow off the planes, washing the planes, litter picking etc) then I would have done it as I would get to speak to people.

Anyway, i'm looking for p-t jobs now to fund the flying (i'll get enough money to be able to pay for a few lessons, then i'll start. That way if I for some reason I can't work for a weekend, I'm not going to miss out on a lesson)

So, Mummy waited on you all your life? did all your "nasty" washing -up?

There's a difference between cleaning dishes that have been used by your family and cleaning dishes that have been used by members of the public.:p

Crash one

19th Jan 2013, 13:57

Quote:
So, Mummy waited on you all your life? did all your "nasty" washing -up?
There's a difference between cleaning dishes that have been used by your family and cleaning dishes that have been used by members of the public.http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/tongue.gif

No there isn't. Your family's **** stinks just the same as everyone else's. Suggest you read Dar's post again until it sinks in.

BackPacker

19th Jan 2013, 15:04

being in the kitchen isn't going to get me exposure to the pilots/owners.

Probably not, but you've got to start somewhere. In a restaurant, doing the dishes is virtually the only job that requires no training whatsoever. (The other is emptying the bins, and you proved yourself quite incapable of doing that, by getting goo all over your shoes and - presumably - the floor.)

Waiting on tables, handling the bar, cooking the food, settling the bills and so forth all take training. Training which they're not going to give you just yet until you've proven yourself. And once you get near aircraft, this will only become more complex, as the damage you can do to a plane (and yourselves) is a lot more than the mess you can make in a kitchen.

Have you talked to other volunteers like yourselves that must be around, before you applied? What they did, and for how long, before they got themselves in the position they're now? What were your expectations, what were they based on, and were they realistic?

Your parents probably have made you believe you're a genius on par with Einstein. You can't blame them - it's their job. But the restaurant manager, CFI or school director will see things differently. He'll just see a 17-year old kid with no readily applicable skills/experience whatsoever. He's going to want to observe you for a while before he will start investing in you, to see if that investment is going to pay off.

And the same is going to happen in your upcoming p/t retail job, and probably every other job you land in the future.

I have decided that I am not going to continue with it

Why do I have this nagging feeling you won't be missed?

dublinpilot

19th Jan 2013, 15:15

Jeez... You are all quite nasty today.

ecosse

19th Jan 2013, 15:36

Wasn't going to say anything though.....:oh:

There's a difference between cleaning dishes that have been used by your
family and cleaning dishes that have been used by members of the public.http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/tongue.gif

There's know difference at all !!!!!! Man up !!!!!!!!!

Why do retail and be stuck in a dead end job you already claim to hate? Cause when you've passed your ppl you wont have enough money to sustain an airplane? why not go to college, do something aviation?

Get a career in an aviation job (or something else)and volunteer to pay for your lessons, if you don't later in life you may look back and think ****!!! what have I done why didn't I..........bla bla bla....

Fair enough exploitation (a very powerful word btw) is bad but what we have here is NOT!! in my view.

What you have to look at is (and @ 17 none of us did) The big picture, where will I be in 10 years is a good start.

Don't be a "tomorrow man" Give a little thought to the future FLYAWAYS...:ok:

Pilot DAR

19th Jan 2013, 19:58

Yes, my life story is widely varied between :zzz: and :eek:, but in very large part :). But after a lot of effort, it is much better than I would have ever dared to dream (while mucking out Boeing 707 holds). That is due to the kindness, and immense generosity of a lot of people, particularly in aviation. Many pilots and owners...

being in the kitchen isn't going to get me exposure to the pilots/ owners

I disagree. You want to be exposed to the pilots and owners, the real movers on the mainstreet of you path to your aviation career. Those pilots and owners got to be so, in large part because they worked for it. They know what it is to work at something which seems totally beneath you. So while you're doing the work that they can afford to not have to do, they still know it's getting done - by someone. There can be good exposure, even in the shadows.

Fast forward..... you've been doing a super job of washing up for all these months, because you are simply proud to make a good job of whatever you agree to do. One day, you come out from the dark corners of the washing up area, to pick up another load of dishes from the "pilot's and owners" area. They will notice you, and think that for all those months, that job, which they no longer want to do, was done by you. Done well, and with pride. You will be memorable, and someone will make an effort on your behalf. Something good will happen to you, and in an instant, it'll all have been worth it. Or,

You seek your fortunes elsewhere, not a plane or pilot in sight, and become just one of the many 17 year olds, who has a long hard path ahead, to stand out from all the rest of the 17 year olds around...

You did ask for the advice, and you got lots. Of course you can do what you like. But, some owners and pilots here, with very interesting life stories, have noticed you, and took time to reward you with advice offered with their valuable time. If you were where I am, you'd have had a flying invitation from me by now - I just landed from a 10 minute hop.

No one here will actually think the less of you for "moving on" should you choose to. However, some here will believe that you might have passed up an opportunity to stand out in a good way, to exactly the audience you were looking for....

Flyaways

19th Jan 2013, 22:18

I am at college still and i'm planning on going further (Either to Uni or some kind of professional training scheme).

I do appreciate that you all have given your advice to me. I've been back and forward on whether to continue or not but I think I probably rushed into the volunteering scheme because of my enthusiasm and the picture that they painted of it.

I know you probably all think I am some stuck up kid who wants everything but isn't prepared to do anything, and I don't think I am 'too good' for washing dishes. I have explained how I would be happy to do litter picking, wash planes, clean hanger floors etc which in my opinion are on the same level as washing dishes, but I feel being stuck in a kitchen isn't going to benefit me. The flying school didn't ask about my qualifications or even look at my CV. They didn't think of me as an investment, but as an unpaid kid to do the chores that the staff didn't want to do. If they looked at CV's they could weed out people who are likely to be a good investment and those who wouldn't be.

Okay so if I stuck with it and did it for a three months I might get some back seat experience or something. If we talk in terms of flying lessons, I would have 3 hours in the log book. If I got a job for three months at £6 an hour (let's use the same lines of two 6 hours shifts a week, total 12 hours) I would have earned £864, enough for nearly 6 hours of flying experience, plus I could get some back seat experience by hanging around the airfield chatting to owners etc.

All in all, the volunteering is only so I can get a PPL and learn to fly. In basic terms it's a hobby and it's unlikely that i'll be making money from it in the future. After I get the PPL how will I pay for the aircraft rental and other costs? I'll need a paying job. If I get a paying job now I can work my way up in it which will be giving me money, so if it all goes wrong and I have to stop learning to fly (Say I had a medical problem which stopped me from getting a PPL) then i'm not stuck without a job. I'll have a job which is getting me money.

Oh, and yes I did get bin juice on the floor (outside), and on my shoe. The bag must have had a hole in or something :ooh:

(Sorry if anything is wrong here or it doesn't make sense, it's late and i'm typing this quickly!)

But yes, please don't think i'm ignoring you're advice. I've learnt a lot from this thread and you can be sure i'm thankful for you taking the time to post.

mike172

19th Jan 2013, 22:37

When I was 16 I got a job at a certain cheap sports shop which paid me the handsome sum of five quid an hour. When I was 18 I started flying lessons using nothing but the money earnt from this job. I had my licence in my hand by the age of 20, so although it may have taken me a couple of years it was very much do-able and very much worth it!

Volunteering is great but don't let yourself get used, make sure you enjoy it and don't just do it for the sake of it.

Pilot DAR

19th Jan 2013, 22:39

Flyaways,

I see that you ask, and stop and think. Excellent qualities in a person. My complements. You will make the best decision. No one here has walked the mile in your shoes. We only have anonymous advice to offer. You have obviously given this a lot of thought, and that's all that anyone can ask of a person. I have never suggested that this particular volunteer arrangement is appropriate for you (because I have no idea).

Therefore, as you see, I offer you my thoughts, I'll try not assert them to [at] you. Keep your mind open, as you obviously do, and you will go far. If you ever go as far as Ontario, look me up, you and I will do some flying....

mostlytossas

20th Jan 2013, 01:28

Very interesting thread here. My view is you are far better to get a paying job elsewhere to save up for flying lessons. Then you become the client and you decide who and when you fly and train with. Volunteering like you have been doing is for mugs.There will always be people prepared to take advantage of the weak and /or vulnerable. If you want to get some free flying by volunteering ( if you really think you must) better to meet other pilot owners around the club while you are training and suggest to them you would be interested in being a passenger for the experiance and in return would be happy to wash their aircraft. You will probably find some will take you anyway, freely just to help a kid along.Trouble with aviation as an industry is there are far more budding pilots than jobs and employers know that, so, the unscrupulous amongst them take advantage of whoever offers. Look at the scam cadet schemes around as an example. If you only intend being a PPL ( and I would strongly advise you do) stay away from such schemes. Slavery ended even in the land of the so called free over 100years ago.
As with the above poster if you are ever in Adelaide OZ look me up and I will take you flying with no strings attached.

Brian Abraham

20th Jan 2013, 01:55

Flyaways, I have some sympathy for the position you find yourself in. Sometimes you just have to cut your losses when you see no chance for improving your lot. A mate and I spent some three years as teenage self appointed weekend refuellers at the local airport, all out of 44 gallon drums with a quart stroke hand pump. Just to be around aircraft, and ever hopeful of a ride. Not once did a local private owner/pilot ever offer encouragement, much less a ride. There were a series of charter pilots who moved through employment at a field based charter company, which had a grand total of one aircraft in the fleet. We helped with washing, oil changes etc and of course the refuelling. These pilots were the only ones who offered encouragement, and whenever they could would take one of us, sometimes both if able, on trips. One pilot in particular went to the point of having us save all the fuel drains in a "special" 44 drum which would then be burnt in an undocumented flight giving us hands on circuit work. The Auster didn't have a second control column fitted, but that was rectified by the old man making one up for us. This was back in the early '60s - a different world to today.

I think the difference in attitude was the charter pilots understood what it was to have stars in the eyes and an ambition, whereas the private pilots/owners were doing something for personal recreation and interest.

The very best of luck on your journey.

oxo

20th Jan 2013, 07:40

I have to agree with those here who say you have a bad attitude. If flying is what you really want to do, then you should be prepared to do anything to get it.

I suggest you watch some episodes of Ice Pilots NWT, especially the first series.

They take newly qualified CPLs, with a couple of hundred hours and put them to work loading, cleaning, de-icing planes at Yellowknife in Canada north west territories, in temperatures down to -40. After doing this job for up to 12 months, with NO flying at all, if they have shown they have the right attitude, they then get the chance to be copilot. Oh, I didn't mention that its a 7 days per week job for poor pay..

Could you do that? On what you say here, I doubt it.

thetimesreader84

20th Jan 2013, 09:13

Could it be that the washing up is a test? "We've been stung with these kids before, lets give them he worst job we can think of, see how committed he is before we let him near one of our aeroplanes"

I would say suck it up. As someone who worked, hard, for his flying, 7 days a week for below minimum wage, I hate the attitude of "I'm not doin anything relevant, I can't suck up to the bosses, no one can see how special I am".

Nothing comes for free.

Rant over.

taxistaxing

20th Jan 2013, 17:00

Interesting and varied responses. Albiet some are unecessarily aggressive and personal in their tone, in my view, espescially considering the OP's age. Sadly that's par for the course on this website.

OP I think you've shown the right attitude in seeing this through as far as you have. It's fine to volunteer (and fine to do crap jobs), so long as you are getting the commensurate return out of it (be this payment or experience). Only you can make this judgement in your particular circumstances. In life, as a general principle, doing something for nothing is rarely a good idea (unless you're volunteering for altruistic or charitable motives) as, human nature being what it is, this will tend to be exploited.

If you read a lot of other threads on this website you will see pilots complaining about just that: people so keen to enter the aviation industry that they will work for free (or even pay to work). This is ultimately self defeating as it degrades T's and C's for the whole industry. You will be served well by a "what can I get out of this?" attitude, at every step of the way - mercenary as that may sound.

dublinpilot

20th Jan 2013, 19:15

Flyaways,

For what it's worth, I think that you have shown significant maturity.

While some may not agree with what you find icky, that's really irrelevant. You've explained that you've no problem doing other 'dirty' jobs, but this one isn't for you. So be it. You've also explained that you really don't like working in retail, but are prepared to do it to get what you want.

But unlike many your in your position, you didn't just walk out. To turned around and asked for advice before making a decision. You listened to the advice given, even though much of it was conflicting and much critical.

You've managed to evaluate the options in front of you and objectively been able to work out which one gets you closer to what you want (flying lessons and back seat rides) despite the fact that both options have varied and complicated variables. You might have a future in accounting if you ever decided to look that way ;)

Many people your age would be unwilling to take a job that they don't like to fund a hobby they want to do, and would simply expect their parents to pay for it. I suspect many here who have critised you have had some of their flight training funded by their parents, or have children who they have funded their flight training for, rather than expected those children to get a job and fund it for themselves. So well done to you for making it happen yourself. :D

I think you have a bright future. Best of luck with getting to Uni ;)

dp

J.A.F.O.

20th Jan 2013, 20:09

Any 17 year old who gets out and about under their own steam should be applauded but I do think it's a shame that you've thrown in the (tea) towel after such a short time.

I imagine that one day you'd be very proud, sitting in the left hand seat of your Airbus saying: "You know what? I started off washing dishes at..."

But, on the other hand, perhaps that's for some one else.

banditb6

20th Jan 2013, 20:44

Some companies out there are going to "use" people offering to volunteer, of course they are but be aware that some will also be like others have said just be testing how well you look after the one small job of cleaning dishes.

If you are unable to be trusted to do this small job to the best of your abilities and not moan about it then how are they ever going to offer you anything else

Personally I would get a part time job and volunteer at the club one day also, gets your name about and after 3 months its still as bad then try somewhere else or give it up!?

Flyaways

21st Jan 2013, 08:05

If you are unable to be trusted to do this small job to the best of your abilities and not moan about it then how are they ever going to offer you anything else

It's not that I can't be trusted to do it. I did the washing up fine on that day. I didn't smash or break anything and I cleaned everything well (I didn't miss anything). I was given the option to carry on or not. Choosing not to carry on doesn't mean I can't be trusted to wash up, i'm sure if I carried on they would happily have me doing a shift each week because I didn't do anything that makes me look untrustworthy. I did everything they asked and I asked if there was anything else I could help with.

So I don't think this means I am 'unable to be trusted' to do the job, it just means that I didn't want to do it.

If I had been breaking glasses, missing bits or not putting things in the right places then that would be showing I couldn't be trusted to do the job.

Moaning about a job and being trusted to do it is two different things. I can moan as much as I like about a job but that doesn't mean I can't be trusted to do it. When I had a Christmas job in retail I used to moan about it when I got home- that doesn't mean I couldn't be trusted to do it.

--

Thanks for understanding dp! One of the Uni courses I applied to had 'Pilot Training' as part of it. It's an aerospace degree and as part of the course you learn the PPL ground school and get flying lessons (You have to pay, but you get them discounted).

--

J.A.F.O., I'm not sure if being a commercial pilot is for me. After being on this forum it looks like it's pretty tough to get a job without a lot of hours. I'll be focusing on a PPL for the time being, maybe if I get the money and time I could look towards being a flying instructor/ running a little flying school.

banditb6

21st Jan 2013, 17:11

Yes I don't specifically mean that all the pots and pans are clean and you didn't break anything and so they trust you, I mean they may be trying you out with something like this to see how you get on before they let you loose doing different more varied tasks.

Julian

21st Jan 2013, 19:37

Flyaways,

Dont listen to the comments putting you down on here!

You approached a COMMERCIAL organisation and basically they ripped the p1ss out of you as regards wages! It was below minimum wage as some have already stated, you could probably shop them in if you wanted to, give them a wake up call! You gave a shift a go, realised what their business model was and have moved on. Thats life!

A genuine organisation would have fairly compensated you for your volunteering! The fact they said that you will never get off the dishes says to me they have no interest except lining their own pockets and not helping out genuine newcomers.

I dont think you have come across as privledged or stuck in any of your posts. Its upto you how you fund your flying, be it dishes, retail, driving a taxi, etc ... Common sense says pick the option that is going to get you to your goal quickest or get you their learning more than you would have the convential route - not washing up!

J.

mary meagher

21st Jan 2013, 20:25

I'm sorry, Flyaway, that you are so reluctant to do washing up. Who does it at home? do you leave your dirty clothes on the floor for your mum to deal? do you walk the dog without moaning? do you do anything without moaning?

This is a GRANNY RANTING. I've had to wash dishes and clean up **** all my life, and make the best of it, and do a good job of it. And never got paid a penny. I'm still doing exactly that, without complaining.

I was going to make a suggestion that a different sort of flying organisation that exists mostly on everybody mucking in and doing the dirty work might offer more flying opportunities, and does indeed offer more flying opportunities to teenagers who are willing to get stuck in and show up reliably. And use initiative to invent paying jobs on the airfield, if only washing cars.

But I don't think you have the qualities required.

Flyaways

21st Jan 2013, 20:42

you could probably shop them in if you wanted to, give them a wake up call!
Considering this will be the airfield I will have to take lessons with, I don't think that would be a good idea aha! :E Thanks for the positive words!

I'm sorry, Flyaway, that you are so reluctant to do washing up. Who does it at home? do you leave your dirty clothes on the floor for your mum to deal? do you walk the dog without moaning? do you do anything without moaning?

This is a GRANNY RANTING. I've had to wash dishes and clean up **** all my life, and make the best of it, and do a good job of it. And never got paid a penny. I'm still doing exactly that, without complaining.

I was going to make a suggestion that a different sort of flying organisation that exists mostly on everybody mucking in and doing the dirty work might offer more flying opportunities, and does indeed offer more flying opportunities to teenagers who are willing to get stuck in and show up reliably. And use initiative to invent paying jobs on the airfield, if only washing cars.

But I don't think you have the qualities required.

We have a dishwasher at home. And if you would, please read (or skim read at least) the whole thread, so you know what has been said before posting. I'm not going to repeat what i've already said.

POBJOY

21st Jan 2013, 21:44

I would say that judging by the way light aviation is going 'Kitchen Work' will be of more use than 'hanging around' not flying.You can progress to 'Macs' and then the sky's the limit.
You may try 'helping out' at the 'fixing' dept with the possibility of air tests,plus learn what makes the machines tick (quite useful).
So there you have it;progress from washing plates to washing aircraft (someone may even pay you for it)

Old skool Alex

22nd Jan 2013, 09:52

Perhaps cleaning the dishes and drying them was abit like sanding the floor and painting the fence for Mr Miyagi in the karate kid film? They were just training you in some bizzare way for something :)

Slopey

22nd Jan 2013, 10:14

In a nutshell, they've got the planes, you've not got the money. So if you want to fly their planes, you do what you have to. It's their train set.

If you want to turn that around and get another job, then pay them to fly their planes, then so be it. Although that other job will likely keep you well away from the airfield for hours on end rather than at least on-site. IMHO, pilots around the club are more likely to remember people behind the counter (in whatever role), than just another PPL student. But it depends what you want out of it/them. If you're looking to back-seat or go up with someone, then being on-site is going to be more useful than just turning up for a lesson once every few weeks.

From what I remember washing dishes in a restaurant in my youth, there was plenty time to get to know the regulars and make contacts. Not every second of it is necessarily spent in front of a sink, especially when it's quieter. And in my case, it was a test. A few weeks of washing up, and I was promoted to the bar.

oxo

22nd Jan 2013, 10:34

After all the comments, and your replies, you come across as another loser with a sense of entitlement. It's time for you to start growing up and being a man.

Here's an (extreme) example.

Prince Harry shows he is 'one of the guys' and not afraid to help out with mundane chores | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2266314/Prince-Harry-shows-guys-afraid-help-mundane-chores.html)

Flyaways

22nd Jan 2013, 16:38

I've made the right decision in terms of numbers- It would take me 45 months (Nearly 4 years) to do the PPL on the volunteering scheme. It would take just under 2 years if funded by a p-t job.

In terms of flying experience (back seat etc) I can't say if i've made the right decision yet. I guess I will never really know, but i'm fine with that.

On a positive note, I have a job interview coming up soon (Quick, eh!)

After all the comments, and your replies, you come across as another loser with a sense of entitlement. It's time for you to start growing up and being a man.

If that's what you think then that's fine, but doing the dishes at a flying club who is only half bothered about helping me learn to fly isn't going to get me far, especially as this is a hobby, not a career.

& OK, I see that example but in my defence, it's not washing up :ok: I did have to clean the work tops and tables too before the customers came in, but nobody on this thread knows that because I didn't complain about that bit ;)
But when customers come in, it's back to the sink until the end of the day.

Richard Westnot

22nd Jan 2013, 16:56

"JUST DO IT!" either way we are all happy for you. :)

Good luck with your ppl :ok:

Next................

POBJOY

22nd Jan 2013, 17:07

Oh i forgot to mention;there was a person who cleaned aircraft, and did so well he ended up with his own fleet !!.
Its all about 'added vaule'. How much value do you add to a plate compared to the same effort/time on a £50,000 aircraft.
Most aircraft i see have screens that make quite good IMC trainers,perhaps you could offer a service there, and enjoy it aswell.
Not sure about all this washing up business,perhaps they thought you were interested in being an Air traffic controller.

RTN11

22nd Jan 2013, 20:00

I've made the right decision in terms of numbers- It would take me 45 months (Nearly 4 years) to do the PPL on the volunteering scheme. It would take just under 2 years if funded by a p-t job.

That's a pretty short sighted way of looking at it. In four years you will be 21, and there is no way you would still be legally volunteering on this basis.

Anyone who enquires about a volunteer program, or work experience, should do so with the experience and the future prospects in mind, not the numbers. Otherwise no one would ever do an apprenticeship as the wages are really really low (lower than standard minimum wage) but it's about the experience. You think an apprentice mechanic is changing an engine on his first day? Or do you think he's doing the washing up and making cups of tea whilst observing what is going on.

From the school's point of view, you asked about volunteering, they perhaps didn't have an established volunteer scheme, so simply found you something to do. When you turn 18 and after a year of this volunteering, you could easily have found yourself working behind the bar or restaurant, on a proper wage for your age, and meeting some very experienced pilots and getting exposure to the industry you want to enter.

Rather than sucking it up and pursuing this opportunity, you have chosen to chase a job in retail, which you admit you will hate. This will keep you busy and away from the airfield, and you will find the money in your account is far more tempting to spend on girls and beer, so your PPL will probably still take 4 years anyway.

J.A.F.O.

22nd Jan 2013, 21:13

I can't say if i've made the right decision yet

We can.

You see, you came here for advice from some people who'd been around a bit longer than you. I give you full credit for that, really I do. But then you ignored the advice when it didn't match up with what you wanted. That's the bit to learn from.

It may be they were seeing what you were made of, it may be they were taking the pi$$, I don't know. What I do know is that if I could talk to my seventeen year old self I would tell me to hang around the airfield in whatever way I could, fly with everybody I could, in everything I could, let the avgas, oil and dishwater sink into every neuron while I lapped up everything that was aviation, got to know people, found out about the world. If I was working in the kitchen it would be even better, I'd never go hungry.

I might not have listened but, there again, I was a bit of an ar$e who thought he knew best. Some times I still think I know best but on the occasions that I get advice and the, less frequent, times that I ask for it, I try to learn from it.

You might as well learn from the mistakes of others because you'll be either very old or very dead before you've managed to make them all yourself.

Pilot DAR

22nd Jan 2013, 22:14

Well, as it's getting near bedtime, it's time for another story. This one is not directed at the OP, He/she has received my comments, both good and bad. This story (not mine) is directed to any other young ones reading...

The story goes that the employer of the aging gem cutter wanted the gem cutter to pass on his skills and knowledge to an apprentice before he retired. The gem cutter was not the least interested in this, he just wanted to work on his own. However, the employer insisted, and assigned the most serene young fellow they could find.

The apprentice reports for work, and the old gem cutter is less than welcoming. Knowing that he has no choice but to mentor the young fellow, he hands the apprentice an uncut gem, and directs him to sit in the corner. Predictably, the young apprentice eventually asks when he can cut a stone. "When I think you're ready" comes the reply.

This goes on for a few weeks, with the apprentice becoming increasingly frustrated with his apparent lack of advancement, and the gem cutter still telling him "When you're ready".

One day, having again been sent to the corner with the uncut stone, the apprentice returns to the gem cutter and says: "I notice that this is not the same stone that you gave me yesterday...".

"You're ready....."

taxistaxing

22nd Jan 2013, 22:39

If that's what you think then that's fine, but doing the dishes at a flying club who is only half bothered about helping me learn to fly isn't going to get me far, especially as this is a hobby, not a career.

Absolutely right!

Nothing to do with arrogance or snobbery, as some of the above posts imply. In the real world people don't go to work for the fun of it. They go for the $$$! I knew that when I started my first paying part-time job aged 16 and I certainly know it now. What sort of moneygrubbing flying school takes on teenagers to do their washing up for free?! If they had any sense they'd be giving your proper experience to court your business as a prospective PPL student!

OP you're doing well. A lot of 17 year olds sit on their arses at home playing computer games. You've already achieved more than that by looking at volunteering and now making a mature assessment about whether it's worth continuing.

A paying part time job at 17 will give you self respect, a work ethic, confidence and money in your pocket. That work ethic can be your launchpad to a career, as a pilot or otherwise, a place to live and a lifestyle. Once you're set up with these things, you can think about where to go from there!

Best of luck.

Flyaways

23rd Jan 2013, 11:21

We can.

You see, you came here for advice from some people who'd been around a bit longer than you. I give you full credit for that, really I do. But then you ignored the advice when it didn't match up with what you wanted. That's the bit to learn from.

I don't think you can. Each flying school is different. It could have turned out to be a great volunteering scheme and I end up with a lot of experience and contacts in the industry. On the other hand, it could turn out terrible and i'd be stuck out of sight washing the dishes every day.

Everyone has given me advice on this thread, whether they say I was right to stop or I was wrong to stop. It's advice, not instructions. I read the advice which then influences my decision. In the way you're speaking, I can't win. If I had carried on with the scheme then I'd have 'ignored' the advice of those who suggested I stop. I have decided not to carry on, which means I have 'ignored' the advice of people who advised me to carry on.

BackPacker

23rd Jan 2013, 11:50

It could have turned out to be a great volunteering scheme and I end up with a lot of experience and contacts in the industry. On the other hand, it could turn out terrible and i'd be stuck out of sight washing the dishes every day.

True. But you quit after a single shift, done on a day which was by no means a normal day. You didn't even give it a second chance. So you'll never know how it would've turned out.

Heck, I don't see anything that indicates you even talked it over with the manager. He might have given you a more realistic view of the job and the future.

I think that's what annoyed most of the posters on this thread. Not the fact that you made a decision one way or another, but the fact that you started whining about it so quickly, without giving it a few days/shifts to see how it would turn out.

It was certainly my reason for getting involved with this thread.

J.A.F.O.

23rd Jan 2013, 12:02

BackPacker perhaps made my point more eloquently than I.

Good luck, Flyaways, I genuinely wish you all the best.

Flyaways

23rd Jan 2013, 13:15

True. But you quit after a single shift, done on a day which was by no means a normal day. You didn't even give it a second chance. So you'll never know how it would've turned out.

Heck, I don't see anything that indicates you even talked it over with the manager. He might have given you a more realistic view of the job and the future.

I think that's what annoyed most of the posters on this thread. Not the fact that you made a decision one way or another, but the fact that you started whining about it so quickly, without giving it a few days/shifts to see how it would turn out.

It was certainly my reason for getting involved with this thread.

I talked it over with the manager of the flying school who told me it would be a range of jobs, from washing up to helping the maintenance guys or washing the planes. Then I talked to the restaurant manager who told me it was just going to be washing up, and occasionally there may be something other than washing up, but he didn't seem to certain. I asked if that would involved being out on the field or helping the maintenance guys and he said no, as the pilots know the most about the planes so they will be used if help is needed. The only time I would need to go in the maintenance area was if I was told to collect the cups.

Ok so the ideal solution would be to stick it out for a few days to give it ago. I could have done it but I'd be incredibly bored and hate the place- not a good thing to think if that's where I would have to take lessons! I've done it now, and I am happy with the decision. Nothing lost, nothing gained etc...

I think we can slowly start to end this thread now :O

rsuggitt

23rd Jan 2013, 16:25

Hmmm. Cant help thinking that the manager of the flying school knows all about the school, planes, etc. Whereas the manager of the restaurant knows... all about the restaurant. How the school runs is not his remit.

Slopey

24th Jan 2013, 10:05

but doing the dishes at a flying club who is only half bothered about helping me learn to fly isn't going to get me far, especially as this is a hobby, not a career.

If you want them to be fully bothered about helping you learn to fly - pay for the lessons and get on with it.

POBJOY

24th Jan 2013, 21:28

I think whats needed here is 'SPARKLE' :-
It appears to last longer,cuts through grease,produce's more bubbles,and leaves a great finish with (wait for it) A ZING.
Introduce this to the kitchen,and then they will make you the catering director (unpaid of course)

Pilot DAR

9th Feb 2013, 03:32

I thought about this thread, and the underlying theme today.

I was sitting in a client's office. He owns a maintenance shop which specializes in Lake Amphibians, among other types. His director of maintenance intercommed him to inquire about a particular Lake, which they are reviewing for a potential purchaser. The DoM inquired about a rebuild signed out by a aircraft maintainer I knew as a kid. The name caught my ear, it has been more than 35 years since I have heard of him.

I used to hang around his little airport, and do whatever I could to get near an airplane. He put me to work as a 14 year old, with my first job being scraping off and cleaning excess sealant applied to the hull joints of a Lake. I asked the the DoM what year the maintenance entry was made: 1975. Yup, that was the right year, that would be the same plane. It's still flying today, and up for sale.

A little tiny reminder to me from my very distant past, that volunteering worked out really well for my career in aviation......