BER not before 2014 !

[atakacs]

Just breaking on German news: Berlin Brandenburg not to open before 2014 !

Absolutely amazing IMHO.:eek:

[davidjohnson6]

Just breaking on German news: Berlin Brandenburg not to open before 2014 !

Federal transport minister was discussing this quite openly on 26 Dec last year - would be rare for someone like him to talk publicly about a project as being "in danger" without good reason for saying so....

Minister: Berlin airport date is in danger - The Local (http://www.thelocal.de/national/20121226-46975.html#.UOncSKw8CSo)

[racedo]

Not like the old days :E

Prefer they be late than having someone make the trains run on time, that was tried last time and didn't work out.

[davidjohnson6]

racedo - you've got the wrong dictator - it was the one in Rome who loved trains

[atakacs]

Well it's now official. Regardless of the reasons I still find this quite amazing.

[Barling Magna]

Typical German inefficiency, I'm afraid.

[EuroWings]

Doesn't really surprise me, Berlin never really has lived up to the whole German efficiency model!

[ATNotts]

A great deal of hand wringing from opposition politicians on Morgen Magazine (ZDF TV) this morning about the whole debacle. More heads seem likely to roll.

having someone make the trains run on time

Travelling on the DB these days, things even ain't what they used to be on the railway either. Delays, almost unheard of 30 years ago, seem to be the norm these days, rather than the exception.

At least they haven't been stupid enough to privatise them!!

[jdcg]

Yes they have. Lots of other rail companies are now running franchises in Germany with more to follow..

[ATNotts]

jdcg

Agreed, but the main rump of the operation is still DB, and you can still through tickets, and buy the best fares without going through booking agencies.

Also, with a login from DB, you can buy and print out paper tickets on line, without having to turn up at the station, credit card in hand, and extract them from infernal machines!!

[BALHR]

What I want to know about is how does it affect the airlines that plan use BER:

Firstly Air Berlin is in a poor financial state (mainly due the poor economy and the delays to BER) and is basically living on support from Eithad, if the delays keep coming, do you think this will tip them over the edge? (or push Eithad towards giving up altogether their involvement with AB)

Secondly, will the proposed Lufthansa/Germanwings hub (sort of...) at BER will still go ahead, or will they give up altogether?

Or maybe even Germanwings could fill the gap left by AB (if it goes out of business) in BER, this making the airport one of "LH" major hubs (along with FRA/MUC/DUS/ZRH)?

[Fairdealfrank]

Quote: "Typical German inefficiency, I'm afraid."

Wasn't the original typical stereotype about blindly following the "rule book" or the "manual"/"instructions"?


Quote: "Travelling on the DB these days, things even ain't what they used to be on the railway either. Delays, almost unheard of 30 years ago, seem to be the norm these days, rather than the exception.

At least they haven't been stupid enough to privatise them!!"

Quote: "Yes they have. Lots of other rail companies are now running franchises in Germany with more to follow.."

Any connections?

[ATNotts]

Fairdealfrank

Any connections

I'm not entirely sure this is a DB thread (perhaps there should be a new section "Railways, Stations and Routes"!).

However the answer is yes! The Rurtalbahn, running between Heimbach / Eifel and Düren seamlessly tickets with the DB; and the Vogtlandbahn (owned by Arriva Trains actually) also connect seamlessly with the DB network at many stations, including Regensburg.

Of course the DB already operates trains in the UK (Chiltern Railways and at least one other who's name I can't remember) but for whatever reason, what is possible in Germany seams impossible here!

[deecie]

DB own Arriva, so they run all Welsh Trains, Crosscountry as well as the London Overground and the Tyne & Wear Metro...

[Mr Mac]

Deecie
Also a large chunk of UK freight services through DB Shenka I am told. Anyway as this is an airlines and routes thread back to BER. I have contacts who are involved in this build (having done other airport contracts in the past world wide) and there does seem to have been what could politley be called a disconnect in some aspects of the design. The design from what I am to undrstand has been a little too "fluid" with many late changes some of considerable size and complexity. These will no doubt ome out in the future court case !:E.

[insuindi]

BER is not the only farce... whilst DXB extension opened on time, Maskat in Oman was supposed to be open 2012 with a new date of 2014 ($7bil project),

New Doha International Airport in Qatar is now 5 years behind, at the beginning of 2012 the 12th Dec 2012 was the supposed opening date, now it looks like summer 2013 with no firm date.

[junk collector]

This will suit some airlines that fly from SXF. Depending on your deal the charges for BER compared with SXF were extortionate!

[atakacs]

well given the level of service at SXF and would certainly expect a significant increase if / when BER opens. Is there any plan to continue to operate the current terminal for low cost carrier or is everyone expected to move ?

[insuindi]

@atakacs

the plan was/is for all airlines to use the new BER terminal, with the old SXF terminal to be used by the government until their new-build is finished.

given the capacity constraints and the unknown opening date of BER who knows whether they will look at the old SXF terminal again for LCCs.

[BALHR]

In support of atakacs...

Looking at official stats from Jan-Nov 2012, we see that passenger numbers grew by 7.8% at Tegel and by 0.3% at Schoenefeld, or 5.6% across the 2 airports (remember that Tegel is much larger than Schoenefeld)
Assuming Dec 2012 shows a similiar growth rate compared to Dec 2011, this would indicate Berlin saw about 25.4m passengers in 2012

Looking at growth rates over the last 5 years, one might hypothesise that passenger traffic would be between 26.5 and 27m passengers for 2013

Figures I've seen suggest that the new airport terminal has a design capacity for about 27m passengers, so the airport is likely to be kept busy from the day it opens.


They have enough runnway capacity, the question is over terminal capacity, remember it can be expanded to deal with more passengers (sadly they did not do it in the first place, they might as well...)

[Fairdealfrank]

Quote: "BER is not the only farce... whilst DXB extension opened on time, Maskat in Oman was supposed to be open 2012 with a new date of 2014 ($7bil project),

New Doha International Airport in Qatar is now 5 years behind, at the beginning of 2012 the 12th Dec 2012 was the supposed opening date, now it looks like summer 2013 with no firm date."

A lesson here for anyone seriously considering the "Silver Island" option....

[BALHR]

A lesson here for anyone seriously considering the "Silver Island" option....


Well it depends on how well the project is managed, one good example is HKG (Yes it was delayed one year, but the orginal timeline was far shorter than what could be posibble at the time for a project of that size)

[Mr Mac]

Fairdealfrank
Worked on HKG and yes it was late by 1 year, and as has been stated , there are a number of late running projects world wide concerned with aviation, although I, from my limited experiance of projects of this type would say somtimes the clients programes are a tad unrealistic. However in these times very few contractors will be honest with their clients, as they would possibly lose the job to the contractor who said no problem with dates. Also those in the business know that these projects always have variations / changes which allow extensions to program. Better to win contract, and if a problem 3-5 years down line see you in court if that is the case. Not saying its right, and a Mr Latham argued succesfully against it in the 1990,s when partnering became all the rage, but we are currently back in the sh1t in the old dog eat dog scenario which will result / has led to poor / late bld projects and some unhappy clients. Time to dust of that Latham Report and re invent the wheel again !.:ugh:

Off soap box goodnight all.

[jabird]

I'm not entirely sure this is a DB thread (perhaps there should be a new section "Railways, Stations and Routes"!).

Or PTDRUNe! I think there are quite a few of us ferroequineologists here!

BTW, Chiltern certainly operate to "German" punctuality standards, but they have always been one of the leading networks, and iirc SBB where involved at one stage too.

As for BER, it is my understanding the masterplan is for 50m ppa, so there is plenty of room for expansion, which they ought to think about now given the current delays!

[Fairdealfrank]

Quote: "I'm not entirely sure this is a DB thread (perhaps there should be a new section "Railways, Stations and Routes"!)."

Quote: "Or PTDRUNe! I think there are quite a few of us ferroequineologists here!"

Are we talking integrated transport here?....or is that a flock of pigs flying overhead?

[atakacs]

BTW - does anyone know what is actually the problem ?

We have heard about the fire detection & suppression - surely something that can be fixed within a reasonable time frame ? Or is it a conceptual issue (i.e. something that goes beyond execution) ?

[davidjohnson6]

Good article (in German) here from Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung - although wonder if they might be slightly biased in favour of Frankfurt airport
Use Google Translate if like me you're German isn't that great

Berliner Flughafen: Die geheime Mängelliste - Flughafen Berlin-Brandenburg - FAZ (http://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/inland/flughafen-berlin-brandenburg/berliner-flughafen-die-geheime-maengelliste-12023659.html)

Google Translate (http://translate.google.co.uk/translate?sl=de&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.faz.net%2Faktuell%2Fpolitik%2Finland%2Ffl ughafen-berlin-brandenburg%2Fberliner-flughafen-die-geheime-maengelliste-12023659.html)

[Fairdealfrank]

Not a PFI deal is it?

[Fairdealfrank]

In German there is a word: "verschlimmbesserung" (think that's correctly spelt). It means an improvement that makes things worse.

[ATNotts]

Currently there's not a politician in the State, City or Federal government in Berlin willing to give a new opening date.

Case of "3 x bitten, 4th time shy"!

[atakacs]

Just passed through Berlin this we and was amazed that significant improvement works were underway both in Tegel and Schonefeld. Doesn't bode well for a prompt opening of the new airport !

[Fairdealfrank]

Shouldn't have been in such a hurry to close THF!

[eu01]

So why the local authorities have been so eagerly destroying all possible alternatives in the entire Brandenburg? As this German article (http://www.tagesspiegel.de/berlin/hilfsangebot-nach-geplatzter-eroeffnung-leipzig-halle-will-fluege-aus-berlin/6651468.html) says:Ein Ausbau der früheren Militärflughäfen Neuhardenberg und Eberswalde-Finow für den Billigflieger Ryanair war von Brandenburg untersagt worden, weil für BER keine Konkurrenz erwachsen sollte. Eberswalde-Finow steht inzwischen nicht mehr für Verkehrsflugzeuge zur Verfügung, weil die Landebahn für den Bau eines Solarkraftwerkes halbiert wurde.The [formerly planned] expansion of the old military airports Neuhardenberg and Eberswalde-Finow for the budget airline Ryanair had been banned by Brandenburg, in order to avoid competition for BER. Eberswalde-Finow is now no longer available for commercial aircraft, because the runway was halved in order to construct a solar power plant there.

[iggie]

What significant improvement works are under way in Schonefeld?

[atakacs]

For Tegel see this article (http://www.thelocal.de/national/20130208-47843.html).

For SXF some improvements in terminal B (apparently increase of the security check capacity ?):

http://i.imgur.com/eAUPbxfl.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/zHDfeKOl.jpg

Lots of money spent on airports that where supposed to be closed years ago...

[Dct_Mopas]

An interesting article regarding a possible partial opening later this year involving easyJet.

berlin airport brandenburg quick opening 2013 (http://www.eturbonews.com/35137/berlin-airport-brandenburg-quick-opening-2013)

[EcamSurprise]

Wing of Berlin Airport BER May Open in October 2013 - SPIEGEL ONLINE (http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/wing-of-berlin-airport-ber-may-open-in-october-2013-a-902289.html)

And here also,

It would make sense.. the rumours have been floating around for a while.

[atakacs]

Interesting idea but even for Easyjet customers you need to have some services (food & drink, car rental, security, etc) that I would not expect to see duplicated between the new and old buildings... Also why spend money in June (see above pictures) for the "old" Easyjet terminal if it is to move in October - doesn't make much sense in my view...

Heard that keeping the unfinished building in shape is costing approx 20mn€ / month - seems pretty steep even by German standards...

[davidjohnson6]

Perhaps a minor consideration, but would politics really allow the big new airport in the new German capital to be launched by a British LCC while Lufthansa / Germanwings and Air Berlin remain at Tegel / Schoenefeld ?

[lederhosen]

Mehdorn who is now in charge ran Air Berlin and in earlier days Deutsche Bahn, and is not likely to be awed by the politicians, who do not know what to do anyway. So it will be interesting if any other airlines increase their presence at SXF before the official opening.

The road, railway and car park infrastructure does not appear to be the problem, bits of the terminal seem to be the main issue. I can see no reason not to operate charter or ethnic flights from there as well. Obviously Air Berlin cannot operate their hub easily across two airports. But if some of the others like Germanwings moved back to SXF it would reduce the pressure on Tegel.

Mehdorn would like to keep Tegel open for some time in paralel after SXF opens. The politicians oppose this. But if SXF has not really opened then nobody can argue, can they?

[davidjohnson6]

Another year has gone by, but still nothing in the way of an announcement as to when the airport might be properly open.

Apart from Google, anyone have any info as to when/if the new Berlin airport will open to commercial scheduled passenger traffic ? I'm guessing we're looking at 2015 or later.

[Fairdealfrank]

One thing is certain: the new Berlin airport (or SXF-plus to be accurate) will be open before LHR gets a third parallel rwy.

[Capetonian]

I can certainly see why Berlin needs a new airport. Had the misfortune to fly out of SXF this morning, and what a miserable experience it was. Of course being German it was clean and efficient but I can say nothing else in its favour. It was a potent reminder of why I travel by train whenever feasible.

The train from Alexanderplatz does a circuitous route to the airport, but only two intermediate stops and about 20 minutes. Then there is quite a long walk from the station to the terminal building. The terminal appears grossly over-capacity, at least at 0830, with huge but fast-moving queues, that German efficiency noch ein mal, and then once airside, throngs of people blocking the passageways, people sleeping and lying all over the place, and only one decent place to have a coffee or breakfast (Marché), which was packed and with a long queue snaking out of it and blocking access to the boarding gates, the other options being a very grubby looking Burger King or a massively over-crowded Irish Pub full of beer swillers early in the morning, nein danke!

The terminal was, I suppose, designed by the communist regime to serve Interflug and the Komrades heading off on their holidays to the resorts of Bulgaria and Romania in the days of the Iron Curtain.

But Berlin is a fantastic city, so much to see and do, excellent food, and friendly and helpful einwohner.

[davidjohnson6]

http://www.adv.aero/fileadmin/pdf/statistiken/2013/12.2013_ADV-Monatsstatistik.pdf
indicates TXL+SXF combined saw 26.3m passengers in 2013, an increase of 4.1% on 2012. If passenger numbers grow a further 2.6% for 2014, then we end up with Berlin having reached the 27m passengers mark that is the defined capacity of the new BER airport, while the new airport won't open before 2015.

Of course, defined capacity is only a semi-arbitrary number and, while the level of service may not be quite as good, I imagine squeezeing 28m passengers through BER should not present any major difficulties

The interesting thing is what came out here:
Berlin's Schönefeld airport 'to stay open' - The Local (http://www.thelocal.de/20140213/berlins-schnefeld-airport-to-stay-open)
Namely, the publicly discussed option of keeping Schonefeld for LCCs even when BER is open...

Anyone able to comment as to whether this is a credible option, or just something being discussed as a PR exercise ?

[atakacs]

I'm afraid that it is seriously considered to keep the current terminal open for low cost carriers...

This whole story is an an incredible farce to say the least.

[atakacs]

Latest is that BER is not to open before 2016... (Anyone with an English link ?)

[davidjohnson6]

EUROPE ONLINE | Nachrichten und Reisen (http://en.europeonline-magazine.eu)

[davidjohnson6]

Now it seem to have been pushed back to 2017
Berlin airport will 'cost ?8 billion and open in 2017' - The Local (http://www.thelocal.de/20140401/berlin-airport-costs-hit-8-billion)

Note - not entirely sure if this is an April Fool or not...

[insuindi]

What doesn't appear like an April's fool about BER.... However, the Bild newspaper insists in an updated article that this is not an april's fool joke. They claim that only 4% of listed issues have been fixed over a 6 months period. They say sources suggest there are two options: 1) Strip out the entire interior of the airport and re-do it. 2) Demolish the entire thing and start from scratch. Reason for both of the above is that no building plans appear to exist that would help to understand the current built infrastructure. (I know. Continues to sound like a joke. BER-Debakel ist kein April-Scherz: Riesen-Wirbel um BILD-Meldung - Politik Inland - Bild.de (http://www.bild.de/politik/inland/flughafen-berlin-brandenburg-international/riesen-chaos-ber-kostet-8-milliarden-kein-april-scherz-35317486.bild.html))

[atakacs]

Now that we are past April 1st do we know if these article were indeed spoofs (I would say so but with BER I guess anything is possible...) ?!

[LN-KGL]

The article that started this last round of comments in the media came from Süddeutsche Zeitung and this article was dated 29 March 2014.

Selbst 2016 scheint gefährdet
Keine klare Planung, ausgeschaltete Kontrollinstanzen und wieder einmal ein gefährdetes Eröffnungsdatum: Ein hochrangiger Mitarbeiter des Berliner Flughafenprojekts erhebt schwere Vorwürfe gegen Airport-Chef Mehdorn. Die Flughafengesellschaft verweigert einen Kommentar.
The article says loosely translated from German: "The planned opening of this capital airport in 2016 is in "acute danger".
The only conclusion from this is the most likely no opening of Berlin Brandenburg in 2016, and the next window will then be 2017.


Link to article in German: BER-Flughafen: Selbst 2016 scheint gefährdet - Politik - Süddeutsche.de (http://www.sueddeutsche.de/politik/flughafen-berlin-brandenburg-selbst-scheint-gefaehrdet-1.1924528)

[Fairdealfrank]

Looks like LHR will have a third rwy before BER is up and running.

BER is effectively a second rwy, a new terminal and a new name for SXF, so technically it could be argued that it's "half" open, and always has been.

[atakacs]

This is absolutely unbelievable. I still remember touring the place a few days before the expected opening - did not look too bad to the untrained eyes...

[ATNotts]

Reported on ARD Morgenmagazine this morning costs of BER are expected to increase by a further € 1.1bn, and an SPD politician interviewed said that they should not announce any new opening date until they can be sure it can be met.

The whole thing has become a mess-up of third world proportions and it can only be imagined what damage this one single project is doing the the image of German efficiency and the "Made in Germany" mantra!

[atakacs]

I really wonder what is the back story here - sure such projects can go off rails but this is really out of control. I really start to wonder if there is not more that meets the eyes :rolleyes:

[atakacs]

The story keeps giving: 3.2 bn extra ! (http://www.thelocal.de/20141103/berlin-airport-needs-3-2-billion-extra-and-new-runway)

[Capetonian]

Sounds a bit like the EU.
https://p.gr-assets.com/540x540/fit/hostedimages/1380324635/690750.jpg

[racedo]

Why have Germans gone all Italian ???

[eu01]

Why then the local government of Brandenburg did so much to destroy all possible alternative airfields in the entire region? 10 years ago Ryanair and other lcc's were eager to settle in Neuhardenberg and/or Eberswalde-Finow, that was just torpedoed. By now these airports could have been striving the same way as Luton or Stansted in the UK are doing, reducing the need to concentrate everything in one place. Delusions of grandeur or alike?

[Affretage]

Adolf's airport (Tempelhof) was closed down and has now been lost for all time. It was one of the most beautiful airports on this planet. What's more, it could have been as successful as London City. But unfortunately Berlin's left wing mayor Wowereit decided to shut it down. :ugh: Time to put these left wing scroungers out of their misery. They are the real enemy of prosperity in Europe.

[davidjohnson6]

London is a very wealthy city often acting as European HQ for many companies based outside Europe, with huge amounts of business / commerce and generates vast amounts of premium class traffic for people whose time is valued extremely highly.

Berlin is a tourist / Govt city, with lower incomes and tending much more towards economy class tickets.

London City airport survives because of the tidal wave of money sloshing around London. Germany is wealthy but as the mayor said, Berlin is poor.

[Fairdealfrank]

It was one of the most beautiful airports on this planet. What's more, it could have been as successful as London City. But unfortunately Berlin's left wing mayor Wowereit decided to shut it down.


Not necessarily because THF was losing money, it was a policy decision (airport in the wrong location?), linked to a referendum AFAIK(?). Apparently driven more by ideology than common sense?



Time to put these left wing scroungers out of their misery. They are the real enemy of prosperity in Europe.

And the EU/eurozone isn't?????



Germany is wealthy but as the mayor said, Berlin is poor.
Exactly, forty years as a divided city is the reason.

[racedo]

Exactly, forty years as a divided city is the reason.

I think it is good to have the Political Capital and Financial Capitals of a country separate.

[Bengt]

Exactly, forty years as a divided city is the reason.

I think it is good to have the Political Capital and Financial Capitals of a country separate.

Racedo, ever heard of the Berlin Wall and East Germany? I believe Fairdealfrank is referring to that rather than Frankfurt being the financial capital of Germany.

[Fairdealfrank]

I think it is good to have the Political Capital and Financial Capitals of a country separate.
Seperate financial and political capitals are found around the world, USA (New York/Washington), Canada (Toronto/Ottowa), Australia (Sydney/ Canberra), China (Shanghai/Peking), India (Bombay/Delhi), Vietnam (Saigon Ho Chi Minh/Hanoi) are some examples.

But it is unusual in Europe, Germany (and Switzerland) are very much exceptions. In Germany, Frankfurt developed as the financial capital, but it could have been Cologne, Dusseldorf, Hamburg or Munich, all bigger cities. When the German Federal Republic was set up in 1949, the the political capital was located at Bonn until reunification, when it was moved to Berlin.

As for hub airports in these countries, they are usually, but not always, situated at the financial capitals. In this respect, Germany is no exception.



Racedo, ever heard of the Berlin Wall and East Germany? I believe Fairdealfrank is referring to that rather than Frankfurt being the financial capital of Germany.
That is correct Bengt.

[davidjohnson6]

Press reports indicate the airport has a fair chance of being open by 2017...

[davidjohnson6]

Correction - press reports now say 2018

[NickBarnes]

man will be living on mars by the time BER opens :ugh:

[insuindi]

There is the off chance that once Wowereit (mayor of Berlin, heavily involved in BER board) is gone (11DEC14) a (part-)demolishion of the BER complex will become part of the agenda.

They should have done that in 2012 though.

[atakacs]

Ouch so you are impliying that the current buildings have to be reconstructed?

[atakacs]

Lattest plans call for an October 2017 opening... This including a fairly substantial rebuild of the current buildings.

[atakacs]

Well Mehdorn is out: http://m.thelocal.de/20141215/ber-chief-makes-resignation-shocker-airport-tegel-mehdorn

[davidjohnson6]

Stats for 2014 are out - TXL + SXF combined saw 28 million passengers over 2014, up from 26.3 million in 2013.
Unfortunately, BER has a design capacity of just 27 million

[EI-A330-300]

Aer Lingus have gotten fed up waiting and are moving to TXL in October. This is one of the biggest embarrassments that's come out of Germany.

[01475]

What's gone wrong with German construction? Their efforts with the Edinburgh Trams weren't so great either :-(

[insuindi]

Don't know about the EDI trams, but the BER desaster is not a construction issue per se, key problem is more a case of a political mess, a supervisory board consisting of politicians, and a complete breakdown of communications.

[atakacs]

Well I have the strong feeling that there is more than crass incompetence in this story...

It will most likely take a few more years but the story will be worth telling!

[langleybaston]

I came out of Schonefeld as self-loading freight yesterday. A hell-hole for Pax.

Two years ago, Easyjet passengers including me were herded into a too-small room before leaving for the bus to plane. No loos, inadequate seating, no PA, no information, at least half hour wait.

Yesterday:
Easyjet passengers were herded into a too-small room before leaving for bus to plane. No loos, inadequate seating, no PA, no information, at least half hour wait.

The shadow of the DDR and the Stasi still hangs over Schonefeld. Lots of in-your-face glitter for duty-free, but a **** experience.

[virginblue]

Well, the place should have long been shut and in the process of being turned into a government VIP terminal. No surprise that they cannot be bothered to make your experience more pleasant than two years ago. TXL is not much better.

[atakacs]

Funilly enough I have been handed over a satisfaction survey at SXF yesterday! Although I understand the constraints around the current facility I have vented some steam...
I have also noticed some extensive "landscaping work" underway... Anyone know what it is ?!

[ReallyAnnoyed]

Possibly the resurfacing of runway 25R.

[ROKNA]

25R is dug up right now

25L is in use, enjoy the taxi around BER to SXF

[Mr Angry from Purley]

I came out of Schonefeld as self-loading freight yesterday. A hell-hole for Pax.

Two years ago, Easyjet passengers including me were herded into a too-small room before leaving for the bus to plane. No loos, inadequate seating, no PA, no information, at least half hour wait.

Yesterday:
Easyjet passengers were herded into a too-small room before leaving for bus to plane. No loos, inadequate seating, no PA, no information, at least half hour wait.

The shadow of the DDR and the Stasi still hangs over Schonefeld. Lots of in-your-face glitter for duty-free, but a **** experience.

Have to agree, it's a complete hell hole. Security - 2 lanes and long queues. Walk to gate not enough time for the DF. Into some sheep pen at the gate, pools of water, couple of rows of seats, stifling heat and squeezed in punters.

[davidjohnson6]

Stats for 2015 are out. Tegel and Schonefeld airports grew by a combined 5.6 %
BER has a design capacity of 27 million pax while the two existing airports saw over 29.5 million pax
http://adv.aero/service/downloadbibliothek/

A planned opening date of October 2017 may not be met
http://www.dw.com/en/berlins-new-airport-potentially-hit-by-yet-another-delay/a-19107260

[1sky]

Stats for 2015 are out. Tegel and Schonefeld airports grew by a combined 5.6 %
BER has a design capacity of 27 million pax while the two existing airports saw over 29.5 million pax

A new standalone LCC terminal is now planned for the new BER. That should increase capacity by a few million.

Still, far from ideal.

[ATNotts]

Stats for 2015 are out. Tegel and Schonefeld airports grew by a combined 5.6 %
BER has a design capacity of 27 million pax while the two existing airports saw over 29.5 million pax

I thought building for yesterday was a trait of the UK government, where infrastructure is concerned. Good to see we're not alone in building too little, too late!!

[EK77WNCL]

It would almost appear as if Berlin has gone from 3 perfectly functioning airports, each filling a role/niche and each with a role to play in the city's future... To two over-stressed, over-capacity, under-invested airports which by all accounts are in a complete state right now due to the fact that they are struggling to cope... Oh and lets not forget the outrageous white elephant which itself seems to have very little place in Berlin's future, be it short term from which it will be completely absent, or long term where it will probably need immediate expansion. Expanding Tegel probably doesn't seem like such a bad idea now

[ExpectmorePayless]

Sounds like a little competition is required.


Berlin Airports controlled 3 airports:
Tempelhof - a business or city airport which could have survived and operated in the London City commuter niche. Unfortunately, it has already CLOSED.
Tegel - home to Air Berlin, and regional base for Lufthansa Group. BURSTING with little new investment due to the 'imminent' opening of BER.
Schonefeld - former GDR building which turned into a LCC hub for Easyjet and Ryanair (and previously Germanwings). BURSTING with little new investment.


And of course, the sleeping White Elephant.


With private competition rather than local political interference and a monopoly position, Berlin like London could have had 3 independent competing airports offering differing products for alternative markets. Alas only 2 airports remain, but if Berlin Airports were forced to sell Tegel to a private operator, the cash gained from the sale may eventually push them to finish and open BER.


BER would then become a hub for network carriers, offering long-haul connections.
A natural home for Air Berlin and LH group.
TXL would then remain open, run by a new owner and offer an alternative product focussed on short-medium haul routes.
As to which airport would become the base for easyJet, Ryanair, Norwegian etc would be subject to competing commercial agreements. As is the case with LHR, LGW, STN and LTN.


I'm amazed that free market competition can still be stifled within an EU country.
But then again with ADP controlling all Paris Airports, ANA controlling all Portuguese airports, AENA controlling all Spanish airports, perhaps a free market isn't what Europe is about these days. Little seems to have changed from the days of the GDR.

[ATNotts]

I'm not totally convinced by the idea that competing airports is the panacea for all ill - if anything it drives costs down, largely through under staffing and an over reliance on the "shopping experience".

I can't see that the competing airports in Southeast England has done a great deal to improve passenger satisfaction, or to resolve the capacity problem there.

BER is undoubtedly a disaster, but I can't see that breaking the monopoly of ownership / operation would have made a fat lot of difference - better planning (something that in general Germany is good at) would have done the trick.

[Fairdealfrank]

Sounds like a little competition is required.


Berlin Airports controlled 3 airports:
Tempelhof - a business or city airport which could have survived and operated in the London City commuter niche. Unfortunately, it has already CLOSED.
Tegel - home to Air Berlin, and regional base for Lufthansa Group. BURSTING with little new investment due to the 'imminent' opening of BER.
Schonefeld - former GDR building which turned into a LCC hub for Easyjet and Ryanair (and previously Germanwings). BURSTING with little new investment.


And of course, the sleeping White Elephant.


With private competition rather than local political interference and a monopoly position, Berlin like London could have had 3 independent competing airports offering differing products for alternative markets. Alas only 2 airports remain, but if Berlin Airports were forced to sell Tegel to a private operator, the cash gained from the sale may eventually push them to finish and open BER.


BER would then become a hub for network carriers, offering long-haul connections.
A natural home for Air Berlin and LH group.
TXL would then remain open, run by a new owner and offer an alternative product focussed on short-medium haul routes.
As to which airport would become the base for easyJet, Ryanair, Norwegian etc would be subject to competing commercial agreements. As is the case with LHR, LGW, STN and LTN.


I'm amazed that free market competition can still be stifled within an EU country.
But then again with ADP controlling all Paris Airports, ANA controlling all Portuguese airports, AENA controlling all Spanish airports, perhaps a free market isn't what Europe is about these days. Little seems to have changed from the days of the GDR.


I'm not totally convinced by the idea that competing airports is the panacea for all ill - if anything it drives costs down, largely through under staffing and an over reliance on the "shopping experience".

I can't see that the competing airports in Southeast England has done a great deal to improve passenger satisfaction, or to resolve the capacity problem there.

BER is undoubtedly a disaster, but I can't see that breaking the monopoly of ownership / operation would have made a fat lot of difference - better planning (something that in general Germany is good at) would have done the trick.
Competition (sic) between airports is nonsense, even in southeast England. It has done nothing to provide adequate capacity, so airports specialise rather than compete. Carriers compete (up to a point), airports don't.

LHR specialises in legacy carriers, short and longhaul routes, cargo, premium pax that the carriers all crave (so are prepared to pay millions for a slot pair);

LTN specialises in no frills carriers, holiday flights and charters, mostly shorthaul;

STN specialises in no frills carriers, holiday flights, charters, mostly shorthaul, and cargo ;

LCY is a niche airport mainly serving the London business areas (The City and Canary Wharf), all shorthaul except JFK.

LGW is a mixture of the above and functions as LHR's waiting room.

The result is almost no competition, the airport used depends on type of carrier, type of journey and destination. For real competition to exist, there needs to be excess capacity so that supply exceeds demand, giving punters genuine choice.

This is clearly not the case in London, nor would it be in Berlin. Note the comments about TXL becoming a home for no frills carriers under Berlin "competition", it sounds more like specialisation.

"competition" is also an illusion in UK railways, and in the UK gas and electricity markets. Also, before getting all "gung-ho" about privatisation, please be aware that privatisated airports are very much the exception worldwide. Maybe ask why this is the case.

[easyflyer83]

BER already has a LCC Pier if it ever opens.

[1sky]

BER already has a LCC Pier if it ever opens.

And they will soon start building a standalone LCC terminal.

[eu01]

And they will soon start building a standalone LCC terminal.
Do you know where? Close to the new terminal or maybe just using a part of the old Schönefeld terminal?

[davidjohnson6]

Now seems that Berlin's airport is unlikely to open before 2019
BER now unlikely to open before 2019 - Business Traveller (http://www.businesstraveller.com/news/ber-now-unlikely-to-open-before-2019)

[AerRyan]

Probably the biggest embarrassment in Germany since the Nazi's

[atakacs]

Turning surreal... (http://www.thelocal.de/20160502/police-probe-possible-revenge-poison-attack-on-ber-whistleblower)

[AerRyan]

Is this airport being built in Latin America?

[atakacs]

Just passed by a few days ago and seems that terminal B is being quite extensively refurbished...

[atakacs]

Well 2018 is the new target (http://dw.com/en/troubled-berlin-airport-unlikely-to-open-in-2017/a-19285368)

[atakacs]

Just passed through SXF - few observations:
Work on terminal B has been completed - it is now more spacious - nothing earth shaking but definite improvement.
Terminal C is now actively pushed as a fast lane (ie hand baggage only) checkpoint. Seems relatively efficient but I am under the impression that staff has been reassigned from terminal A. Not sure that the overall capacity has really changed that much.
Some landscaping work in progress in front of the terminals - Not sure what is is about
No visible work on or in BER buildings

[Fairdealfrank]

Now seems that Berlin's airport is unlikely to open before 2019
BER now unlikely to open before 2019 - Business Traveller (http://www.businesstraveller.com/news/ber-now-unlikely-to-open-before-2019)


Probably the biggest embarrassment in Germany since the Nazi's


Turning surreal... (http://www.thelocal.de/20160502/police-probe-possible-revenge-poison-attack-on-ber-whistleblower)



Is this airport being built in Latin America?

We in the UK shouldn't crow, this fiasco pales into insignificance when compared to the still unresolved 50 year saga of Heathrow expansion!

[01475]

However when we did finally build T5, it went quite well really. It's especially bad for Germany's reputation at a time when Siemens is also having problems with trains.

[atakacs]

I'm at loss for words

Berlin?s delayed Brandenburg Airport will not open in 2017 | News | DW.COM | 21.01.2017 (http://dw.com/en/berlins-delayed-brandenburg-airport-will-not-open-in-2017/a-37224178)

[AerRyan]

I don't understand why though.

Like if there is so much wrong, and this was all acknowledged, and it being Germany, the fact these issues haven't been solved is just bizzare.

[atakacs]

I would agree that the whole thing is really beyond surreal.

Ok there have are "safety" issues with whatever has been built initially. After Dusseldorf 96 I guess it is a fairly sensitive matter... I can even accept that there are missing blueprints and that work was subpar. But there doesn't seem to be clear understanding of what is really happening (at least not being communicated).

[atakacs]

Just realized BER is in fact in business !

http://i.imgur.com/IYIDxv6.jpg

You can already use the parking (http://www.berlin-airport.de/en/travellers-sxf/to-and-from/parking/car-park-overview/index.php#finger_tab3) facilites there... :)

Better than nothing I guess...

[Barling Magna]

Like if there is so much wrong, and this was all acknowledged, and it being Germany, the fact these issues haven't been solved is just bizzare.

Germany's reputation for steely-eyed efficiency is rather over-rated.

[Mr Mac]

Barling Magna
Bit like the British one for over selling and under delivering in my experience of UK PLC. :E


Regards
Mr Mac

[Barling Magna]

Bit like the British one for over selling and under delivering in my experience of UK PLC.

True, but we're talking about the Germans here.

[Mr Mac]

Barling Magna
True, and the Germans have had other large capital project over run significantly before, I remember the canal link from Rhine to Danube was years late but it was completed eventually. My point is that it at least was built, when you compare with our Heathrow runway debacle where we are no nearer starting the bulldozers then we were 5 years ago. I wait with bated breath to see what happens with HS2 the train set nobody but the govt seems to want.


Regards
Mr Mac

[inOban]

I believe that some years ago a new standard contract was drawn up for major projects. That is why HS1 and, so far, Crosstalk, were/are on time and budget. The principle of HS2 is correct; the route and specification is wrong.

[Mr Mac]

inOban
Final account is nowhere near being agreed on Cross Rail talking to the people compiling it, and currently they have considerable problems with M&E with more cable being ripped out than is going in. However as this is yet another London vanity project I suspect costs will be fudged and pushed down the road, and released on obscure day or under a bigger story and when they think we will all have forgotten about it. ;)


Regards
Mr Mac

[inOban]

I'm well aware of these issues. If I'm right, the cost will fall on the contractors, but we'll see.

[Heathrow Harry]

Some infrastructure projects do work - Reading Station revamp was over £ 500 million but came in a year early and under budget for example

[inOban]

Exactly. I believe the contract encourages contractors to work smart and work together. The new Queensferry crossing may be late because of last winter's weather, but I think it's on budget.

[davidjohnson6]

Could I very gently suggest moving the discussion to Berlin rather than the more general topic of project management of large pieces of infrastructure construction ?

[inOban]

Agree. I think we are suggesting that the UK has now developed a project management structure which seems to work better than Germany's.

[Robin757]

Is there any truth in the rumour that because of ever increasing passenger numbers Tegel will have to remain open and in fact be expanded?

[Fairdealfrank]

BER in business
Just realized BER is in fact in business !

It's called Schonefeld, IIRC.


Is there any truth in the rumour that because of ever increasing passenger numbers Tegel will have to remain open and in fact be expanded?

Probably, it should have been done in the first place.

[davidjohnson6]

Is there any truth in the rumour that because of ever increasing passenger numbers Tegel will have to remain open and in fact be expanded?
Robin757 - I've seen talk about Schoenefeld possibly reamining open because BER won't be able to cope with both the current Berlin airports being closed, but I've never heard anything about Tegel remaining open and even being expanded. Do you happen to have a source for this (even if it is in German) ?

[eu01]

Robin757 - I've seen talk about Schoenefeld possibly reamining open because BER won't be able to cope with both the current Berlin airports being closed, but I've never heard anything about Tegel remaining open and even being expanded. Do you happen to have a source for this (even if it is in German) ?
Like this one (http://www.airliners.de/ryanair-berlin-tegel/40711)?

[Bengt]

But the source eu01 links to only says (if my olc school German is correct) that Ryanair wants Tegel to be kept open and tells people to sign the petition to keep Tegel open.

[atakacs]

BER in business
Just realized BER is in fact in business !
It's called Schonefeld, IIRC.

Is it ?

Firstly I was referring to the new airport which is in fact being used for some revenue generating activity (ie. the parking facility...).

Now my understanding is that said new airport was to use the code BBI (Berlin Brandenburg International), once both TXL, SXF and THF would be closed and consolidated there, as per initial plans... until someone realized that there was already an airport using this code in India (Biju Patnaik International Airport). At which point the code was change to BER. Now I have no idea what code the airport will use, assuming it ever opens :confused:

[canberra97]

It still will be BER if and when it opens, the airport code hasn't changed so I don't know why you state 'now I have no idea what code the airport will use'!

What no idea whatsoever!

It's BER nothings changed on that part just the prolonged opening.

But you are aware that the new Berlin airport BER is situated at Schonefeld!

[atakacs]

Well i'm pretty sure that the code BBI was initially considered for the new airport...

As for BER it sometimes (probably erroneously) refers to all airports in Berlin ("Metropolitan Area" as per IATA designation). Typically appears in booking engines for instance.

Also noteworthy is the FBB/BBF codes for - if I correctly understand - the company overseeing the operations of all Berlin airports.

Anyway time will tell :)

[canberra97]

BBI was indeed the IATA code that was origionaly assigned to Berlin Brandenburg Airport but was changed to BER for reasons mentioned in post 123, because it was and still is intended to be the sole airport for the city of Berlin so NO confusion.

[davidjohnson6]

At the moment, the new Brandenburg terminal has a capacity of around 27m pax per year. Tegel and Schonefeld combined currently service well over 30m pax per year, and it seems likely that the Schonefeld terminal will remain open to cope with the passenger numbers and avoid overloading the new Brandenburg terminal

Does that mean that the SXF code will continue in parallel with BER, or will the old East German terminal get the new BER code and branding ?

[Fairdealfrank]

Quote:
Quote:
BER in business
Just realized BER is in fact in business !
It's called Schonefeld, IIRC.
Is it ?Indeed it is. AFAIK, the SXF rwy will be one of BER's 2 rwys, correct me if this wrong.


At the moment, the new Brandenburg terminal has a capacity of around 27m pax per year. Tegel and Schonefeld combined currently service well over 30m pax per year, and it seems likely that the Schonefeld terminal will remain open to cope with the passenger numbers and avoid overloading the new Brandenburg terminalIt's possible that TXL may have to remain open to allow for expansion in pax numbers, even if the SXF teminal remains open for "no frills" carriers. In that case, a new IATA code will be needed as BER will remain the generic code for all Berlin airports. For simlicity's sake, best call it SXF.

Does that mean that the SXF code will continue in parallel with BER, or will the old East German terminal get the new BER code and branding ? Probably the latter, if TXL has been closed, probably not otherwise.


But don't hold your breath in any event.

[canberra97]

If and when BER opens it will be BER, I am sure that if the old Schonefeld terminal is kept for low cost airlines it will still be part of the BER airport but probably called BER Terminal 2.

If TXL is kept open and a very big IF obviously it will remain TXL.

I really don't see what the confusion is!

[Mr Mac]

In Oban
Further to comments on how well Cross Rail was doing I thought I would just post this article from todays construction enquirer. Sounds to be going very well ! Promise to go back to planes and airports now as we have just been appointed to a new airport re development so will get back on topic.

"Balfour Beatty has agreed to pay Crossrail electricians bonuses of more than £4 an hour for the rest of the duration of the project.

The deal has been struck at the Whitechapel site and union leaders will now push for similar finishing bonuses from other contractors across the whole route.
The deal could add millions to contractors’ costs on the project which is facing major technical challenges.

(http://www.constructionenquirer.com/wp-content/themes/constructionenquirer/adclick.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.platformeventsuk.com%2Feven ts%2Ffacilities-management-estates-platform%2F%3Futm_source%3Dconstruction-enquirer%26utm_medium%3Dbanner%26utm_campaign%3Dconstruction enq-ads)The Enquirer reported claims by workers last month that the job is in chaos (http://www.constructionenquirer.com/2017/01/19/crossrail-in-chaos-as-me-work-ripped-out/) with recently installed M&E work being ripped out because of incorrect drawings.
Electricians have now dubbed the job the “Hokey Cokey” line because they take so much M&E work out after it has been put in.
One source said: “I’ve never seen anything like it down there.
“I don’t know what on earth happened with the technical drawings but the whole thing is a mess.”

(http://www.constructionenquirer.com/wp-content/themes/constructionenquirer/adclick.php?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgoo.gl%2FDQaCXN%3Futm_source%3 Dconstruction-enquirer%26utm_medium%3Dbanner%26utm_campaign%3Dconstruction enq-ads)The latest bonus deal also includes provision for a one hour daily paid break and will see electrcians’ hourly rates top the £22 mark.
Another source added: “Now Balfour has moved on this all the other contractors will come under enormous pressure to match these bonus payments.”

[ATNotts]

Thank goodness the Heathrow infastructure costs underwitten are water tight !
Said, I take it, with more than a small dose of irony!!

[inOban]

Good luck with your new job. I was aware of these M and E issues, and I dare say my learned friends will be well paid allocating the blame. The question is - will these costs be paid by the contractors or be charged to Crossrail? That's why you need a well-designed contract.

[atakacs]

The farce continues (https://www.thelocal.de/20170306/berlins-chaos-airport-sacks-boss-amid-leadership-struggle)

I am out of words...

[davidjohnson6]

2016 stats are out for German aiports.
Tegel saw 21.25m passengers, while Schonefeld saw 11.65m passengers
Thus Berlin's two airports saw a total of 32.9m passengers which would be a challenge to fit into BER's 27m passenger design capacity

Seems there are no two ways about it - Schonefeld (or Tegel) absolutely has to stay open in combination with BER

[AerRyan]

The whole airport is wholly unfit for purpose, tear it down, replan it, remove any personnel that has anything to do with the current project, build it, have it all done within 5 years and then open it.

Scratching arses and heads until the next problem arises hasn't gotten them anywhere

[Fairdealfrank]

As stated in #121, TXL will have to remain open.

The new airport is an extension of SXF, so effectively, it will remain open.

[davidjohnson6]

Leaked documents from BER airport now say that 2018 is a definite no, with a target opening date of the second half of 2019. A delay of the opening to 2020 cannot however be ruled out

[davidjohnson6]

https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news/57170-air-berlin-prefers-tegel-over-new-ber

Air Berlin (AB, Berlin Tegel) chief Thomas Winkelmann has told Die Zeit that if Berlin Tegel airport remains open, his airline would prefer to stay there rather than move to the new Berlin Brandenburg Int'l.

"If Tegel remains open, you can make a museum out of the BER," Winkelmann is quoted as saying.

[atakacs]

The question being will AB still be in business by the time BER opens...

[atakacs]

FWIW apparently Easyjet is also considering flying from Tegel.

[Fairdealfrank]

Obviously, makes sense, why go to all the hassle and expense.

At this rate, the LHR third rwy will be in use before the expanded SXF (for that is what it is).

[atakacs]

The question being will AB still be in business by the time BER opens...

Well I guess we have the answer....

[Navpi]

Obviously, makes sense, why go to all the hassle and expense......

At this rate, the LHR third rwy will be in use before the expanded SXF (for that is what it is).

Sadly not re LHR

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/third-heathrow-runway-faces-further-year-of-delay-xl6v2sx2g

[AerRyan]

BER not before 2090?

[davidjohnson6]

Opening unlikely before 2021

Article in German, but Google Translate will turn it into English for you...
Neuer Rückschlag am Hauptstadtflughafen: Geheimer Tüv-Bericht zum BER offenbart bisher unbekannte Mängel - Berlin - Tagesspiegel (http://www.tagesspiegel.de/berlin/neuer-rueckschlag-am-hauptstadtflughafen-geheimer-tuev-bericht-zum-ber-offenbart-bisher-unbekannte-maengel/20620284.html)

[AerRyan]

The fall of Air Berlin may take some pressure off at least ;)

[atakacs]

2020 (https://www.ft.com/content/b90c2a0c-e1b6-11e7-a8a4-0a1e63a52f9c) now seems to be the target, although the article doesn't give any insight as of why this would be a more likely date than any other....

[canberra97]

That FT article is behind a paywall!

Anyway the news that BER will not open until 2020 'at the earliest' was announced over two weeks ago and there is lots of press releases online and over on the a.net forums the discussion has run into over 100 posts so your actually a bit late with the news regarding BER.

[atakacs]

Sorry about that - I did manage to access it without paying :ooh: - in any case not worth your money !

Could be - there seem to have a been a resurgence of posts on the topic recently. That being said I see very little information as of what is actually happening there.

[c52]

October 2020 appears to have been announced on Friday, but this article doesn't take it very seriously. Flughafen Berlin-Brandenburg: Eröffnungstermin im Oktober 2020 - SPIEGEL ONLINE (http://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/unternehmen/flughafen-berlin-brandenburg-eroeffnungstermin-im-oktober-2020-a-1183563.html)

And here's a perfectly serious article: Flughafen Berlin Brandenburg: BER soll im Oktober 2020 in Betrieb gehen | ZEIT ONLINE (http://www.zeit.de/wirtschaft/2017-12/hauptstadtflughafen-ber-soll-im-oktober-2020-in-betrieb-gehen)

[LGS6753]

From the Telegraph:

Whatever happened to German efficiency? Berlin's new airport is a contender for the world's most useless (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/news/berlin-new-airport-delayed-again/)

[Hussar 54]

Belief in German efficiency and technical supremecy is taking a bit of a battering at the moment.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/german-engineering-yields-new-warship-that-isnt-fit-for-sea/ar-AAuAMwV

OK....The UK's record with airports and warships isn't much better but I guess everyone knows and agrees that.

[andyhargreaves]

Flew through SXF last week. Inbound, bus to a new-ish looking passport control and baggage claim. All with BER branding.

Outbound just as dreadful as always. Overcrowded and too hot, additional lanes of security opened in the EZY terminal, but still queuing longer than at MAN T1.

In terms of the new terminal, even 2020 is being doubted:
https://www.verkehrsrundschau.de/nachrichten/flughafen-berater-zweifelt-an-start-des-hauptstadtflughafens-2020-2142473.html

A LH employee has (perhaps flippantly) suggested it should be knocked down:
https://www.welt.de/wirtschaft/article174662258/Pannen-Flughafen-BER-Das-Ding-wird-abgerissen-und-neu-gebaut.html

Also from the same article, the passenger info screens installed prior to 2012 are due to be replaced as they’ve reached the end of their lifecycle.

This story is simply astounding.

[atakacs]

Apparently they want to contract another terminal (https://www.newcivilengineer.com/latest/chronically-delayed-berlin-airport-plans-expansion/10030776.article) before opening the current one!

The fun continues...

[Barling Magna]

Amazing example of German inefficiency.

[atakacs]

When you thought you've seen it all...
.BER as a VW parking lot (https://www.google.ch/amp/s/amp.dw.com/en/vw-finds-a-use-for-berlins-unfinished-airport/a-44420494)

[atakacs]

Just passed by today - the usual sh*hole.

Noticed that they built another small "satellite" boarding building (gates 3x) and more and more shops (although still not a decent restaurant). Clearly, money is still being spent in the old DDR terminal.

What is happening with the new building - I don't see much work there over the years? surely they could have dismantled and rebuilt it twice since they discovered that it was not up to standards ?!

[ExpectmorePayless]

Just passed by today - the usual sh*hole.

Noticed that they built another small "satellite" boarding building (gates 3x) and more and more shops (although still not a decent restaurant). Clearly, money is still being spent in the old DDR terminal.

What is happening with the new building - I don't see much work there over the years? surely they could have dismantled and rebuilt it twice since they discovered that it was not up to standards ?!
And they've gone and built the satellite building in such a position so as to lose use of one of the 3 decent boarding bridges. Never mind I suppose most the customer airlines now want boarding via forward and aft stairs, even though passengers may have to queue in the rain and snow.

I complained to the airport authority regarding the closure of the superb Movenpick restaurant on the first floor. I was informed the lease had been terminated as BER was due to open shortly. That was at least 5 years ago.
The culinary choice now comprises a burger bar or a hot dog stand. Brilliant !

[Robin757]

What is this I hear that when the new airport opens the terminal facilities at SXF will be kept as an additional terminal! Is this true what a Berliner tells me? Apparently he says there has been some official press release from the airport authorities. It also states that there will have to be substantial alterations to the stands and taxiways.

[TheLambtonWorm]

What is this I hear that when the new airport opens the terminal facilities at SXF will be kept as an additional terminal! Is this true what a Berliner tells me? Apparently he says there has been some official press release from the airport authorities. It also states that there will have to be substantial alterations to the stands and taxiways.

According to the map at the link (sorry can't post links properly at the moment) below it will become T5.
hxxp://roadmap.berlin-airport.de/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/20180503_BER20SXF20bezeichnungen20moniteurs.jpg

More news can be found here:
hxxp://roadmap.berlin-airport.de/category/en/30_news-en

[atakacs]

Thanks for the (quasi) links. Some good information there... How reliable is obviously another question altogether.

[atakacs]

Utter and complete chaos this morning at SXF as the union called security personnel out on a warning strike this morning (5-8.45am).

My understanding is that the security staff is working on behalf of the Federal Police and the matter is in fact not in the hands of the airport operator. Still, quite messy and not helping the abysmal reputation of the place.

Edited: from online sources The union wants hourly pay for all workers conducting security checks to rise to 20 euros ($22.81). Employer association BDLS says this could amount to a 30 percent increase in some cases.

It is not a super complex job but €15-18 (my guess from the above) / hour seems awfully low.

[atakacs]

And they've gone and built the satellite building in such a position so as to lose use of one of the 3 decent boarding bridges. Never mind I suppose most the customer airlines now want boarding via forward and aft stairs, even though passengers may have to queue in the rain and snow.

I had the "privilege" of using this new satellite building today. Spartan doesn't really start to describe it

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1418/b6pipqs_33ccc19deb68629bb0e9dde657b4174a206950d5.jpg

new "terminal"

Very limited seating - and exactly four (!) chairs per gate once you've cleared the boarding check. No provision for priority boarding lane.
Zero lift access - I actually helped a woman with a small kid down the stairs with a stroller. How is this even legal in this day and age ? I'm sure there are provisions for handicapped persons but still...
Worst IMHO was the long (I estimate 3-400m) walk on the tarmac to the plane under pouring rain. And I thought they actually built this to make boarding easier.
The information screen were non working (ie did not know what gate was for which fly...). Surely a punctual issue but again not reflecting well on the facility.
No provision for police / pass control - this can only work as a Schengen (as long as it last...) or internal flights.
Indeed "sacrifies" one of the air bridges
Seems to be very much an Easyjet exclusive (but I might be mistaken). Edited: Ryanair seems to also use the facility.
No idea why the used dual numbering of the gates (3x/4x) - anyone ?

As a temporary / short term build why not... but as it would seem the SXF (current) will continue to exists, even in a LCC context, this is really sad.

[atakacs]

Another visit this morning.

Apparently, SXF has "cordoned off" (with pretty impressive barbwires !) the 60+ gates. No idea if they want to transform into a detention centre (to be honest not much work required (IMHO) but it did not help the boarding situation this morning, as gates were changed left and right (with 45 minutes notice to actual boarding time, quite the mayhem !).
More seriouslyy it would seem that the rebuild of Pier3a (https://roadmap.berlin-airport.de/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/2018-12-14-T2_SXF_EN.pdf) is underway. Let's see if they manage to botch it as well as the others...

[davidjohnson6]

In case anyone had any doubts about whether BER's design capacity of 27m pax would cope... Berlin's 2 airports saw 34.7m pax in 2018. Furthermore Jan 2019 saw an increase of 400k pax compared to Jan 2018, so on a rolling 12 months it's now 35.1m pax

If BER were to theoretically open tomorrow and SXF continues to handle 12m pax (with which it really struggles) then BER would be running at 85% of design capacity from day 1. The new extension to BER is essential

[davidjohnson6]

October 2020 opening has been described as absolutely unrealistic
https://www.morgenpost.de/flughafen-BER/article216779821/CDU-und-FDP-Eroeffnung-des-BER-2020-absolut-unrealistisch.html

Air traffic in Feb 2019 saw an increase of +365,000 pax for Berlin's 2 airports compared to Feb 2018, so rolling 12 months of 35.5m pax while Brandenburg airport has a design capacity of 27m pax

[AerRyan]

Who wants to make the next date for when it won't open?

[EGPO]

Who wants to make the next date for when it won't open?

It will open as the last flight lands , meanwhile the rest of the world will have been using ' Star Trek , ' Transporters ' for years . It will be open then I'd guess ...

[atakacs]

No idea why the used dual numbering of the gates (3x/4x) - anyone ?


In fact, the building can be used either for Schengen (3x) or non-Schengen (4x) flights. In the latter case, the "routing" is different as you are directed to a passport control checkpoint (and, obviously, the "direct" access route is cordoned off). I wonder if they are actually switching from one the other during the day ?

[atakacs]

Well it might actually happen: guinea pigs (https://www.ber-testen.de/)

[KNT544]

Well it might actually happen: guinea pigs (https://www.ber-testen.de/)
I’m not holding my breath.

https://www.bz-berlin.de/berlin/umland/noch-mehr-als-5000-bau-maengel-plagen-den-flughafen-berBER Airport is plagued by more than 5,000 construction defects

[eu01]

Berlin: Schönefeld Airport to Rename Terminals Ahead of BER Airport’s Opening (https://berlinspectator.com/2020/03/02/berlin-schonefeld-airport-to-rename-terminals-ahead-of-ber-airports-opening/)
Once BER Airport becomes operational in late October of 2020, what is known as Schönefeld Airport today will convert to Terminal 5. But even before, starting on March 31st, the terminal areas within Schönefeld Airport will be renamed.
More in the article from The Berlin Spectator (https://berlinspectator.com/2020/03/02/berlin-schonefeld-airport-to-rename-terminals-ahead-of-ber-airports-opening/)

[Fairdealfrank]

[/QUOTE]Who wants to make the next date for when it won't open?[QUOTE]

Are the bookies offering odds?

[FFHKG]

Lufthansa have announced that they will move all their flights to the new airport from 7th November 2020 so they must be pretty confident it will open.

[atakacs]

At the time AB was also ready to move operations there...

​​​​​​With the latest mayhem I'd say that 2020 looks less and less likely.

[atakacs]

Well latest update: https://www.n-tv.de/wirtschaft/Tuev-genehmigt-BER-article21727113.html

An important milestone, but anything is possible with that project !

[DDDriver]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-52470012

Definitely, definitely, end of October 2020.

Because things are stable, predictable, and reliable just at the moment.

Definitely...

[atakacs]

Well seems Tegel will be closed in June (https://onemileatatime.com/berlin-tegel-airport-closing/) (the 15th according to latest news). Very unlikely to reopen so they better make the new airport work this time...

[sinbad73]

Well seems Tegel will be closed in June (https://onemileatatime.com/berlin-tegel-airport-closing/) (the 15th according to latest news). Very unlikely to reopen so they better make the new airport work this time...

Didn't they close then re-open THF when this all first started? They could do the same with TXL.

[atakacs]

They could but won't... Politically too sensitive.

BER has to be operational in October or else...
​​​​​​
Update: it might be that TXL will actually not close on the 15th...The only decision taken is that they could close is it legally (no service obligation). But with air travel slowly resuming all bets are off

[atakacs]

Well low and behold TXL will not close before November (https://www.dw.com/en/berlins-new-airport-is-finally-set-to-open-its-future-is-up-in-the-air/a-53672964)...

[DomyDom]

Easyjet showing as operating through BER from November 2020.