Looking for new logbook

[Odai]

Hello,

I'm looking for a new logbook to record my PPL training flights in. Unfortunately my current one is messy and I don't want to send it off to the CAA if I manage to pass my skills test.

One of the problems I had with mine was the tiny size of the entry boxes - I'm using the basic Pooleys private pilot's flying logbook. There is just hardly any space at all for example to write anything in the "remarks" section about the exercises done, or endorsements etc.

Any suggestions for books with a slightly larger format? This one looks ideal but unfortunately it is out of stock everywhere it seems:

Pooleys JAR-FCL Professional Logbook- New Ed - Detailed item view - Leading Flight Equipment, Pilot Supplies, Aircraft Equipment, Aviation Headsets (http://proviationshop.co.uk/shop/article_NLB030/Pooleys-JAR-FCL-Professional-Logbook--New-Ed.html?sessid=5i7XOieQwPxYCQz3gd2QL8uuc0XfEpIRL2BNtB212Q2tJ sDMinBTe5ZtNhldOAd7&shop_param=cid%3D303%26aid%3DNLB030%26)


Thanks

Odai.

[Whopity]

Perhaps you should learn to write smaller or only enter essential details. Dozens of others have managed for years using the small Pooley's log book. It is probably the most common in the UK. Has an instructor given you any help with how to fill it in?

A log book is a legal document and far to many people have the idea that you can reproduce it at will just because it doesn't look nice. ANO Art 79:Detailed information about each flight during which the holder of the log acted either
as a member of the flight crew of an aircraft or for the purpose of qualifying for the
grant or renewal of a licence under this Order must be recorded in the log as soon as
reasonably practicable after the end of each flight. So if you reproduce it, you are not complying with the spirit of the regulation!

[Heston]

Well I can understand your desire for neatness but...
If you get a new logbook and copy everything into it neatly the CAA are going to doubt the veracity of the entries (otherwise known as "Parker" hours, after the pen). Also presumably your instructor has been signing the lesson entries - you'd have to persuade him/her to sign again.
Messy is good - it will be a much better memento of your flying as time goes on.
You don't have to restrict yourself to using just the space on one line - if you want to enter a lot of useful stuff after a particular flight just use the next line. There's no reason you shouldn't do this.

H

[Heston]

And what do you mean "IF I manage to pass my skills test"? You mean "WHEN I pass my skills test" :D

H

[Talkdownman]

If you get a new logbook and copy everything into it neatly the CAA are going to doubt the veracity of the entries (otherwise known as "Parker" hours, after the pen). Also presumably your instructor has been signing the lesson entries - you'd have to persuade him/her to sign again. Messy is good - it will be a much better memento of your flying as time goes on.
Bit of a dilemma if one's logbook has found its way into the wrong hands and suffered damage such as indelible graffiti...

[S-Works]

A logbook is like a living creature.... It is a record of your aviation highs and lows and reflects your journey along a fascinating path. It does not have to be some perfect neat tome. In years to come you will look back with pride and nostalgia at each of those entries.

[Level Attitude]

The only reason for columns is to make adding up easier. Pre-PPL you will only have entries in one of two 2 columns (P1 and Pu/t) per flight. Once you have entered the times in these columns you can write what you like across the rest of the row - Remarks don't have to go only in the "Remarks Column"

[abgd]

Bit of a dilemma if one's logbook has found its way into the wrong hands and suffered damage such as indelible graffiti...

Small children? Or teenagers?

[BackPacker]

Bit of a dilemma if one's logbook has found its way into the wrong hands and suffered damage such as indelible graffiti...

Assuming the writing is still legible, get another logbook. Tally up the totals in your old logbook and transport these into the new logbook as the first line, or something like that. Put your signature next to it and a statement "hours flown from <date> to <date> - see logbook #1".

In the very odd case that the CAA or somebody else will want to see your logbook #1, send it along, together with a cover letter explaining what happened. But most likely you'll find for most, if not all of the experience you need to prove in the future, it'll be contained in logbook #2 anyway.

You don't have to restrict yourself to using just the space on one line - if you want to enter a lot of useful stuff after a particular flight just use the next line.

Agree. Use as much space as you need and just record the next flight on whatever happens to be the next empty line. Although there's a point where things do become plain silly: If you need a full page to record the particulars of each and every flight, you've probably gone overboard a bit.

[ShyTorque]

Very recently the CAA announced that under EASA, a logbook no longer has to be in paper format. ;)

[Heston]

Assuming the writing is still legible, get another logbook. Tally up the totals in your old logbook and transport these into the new logbook as the first line, or something like that. Put your signature next to it and a statement "hours flown from <date> to <date> - see logbook #1".

Not an option for the OP because he is currently training for his PPL - the logbook that is submitted to the CAA needs to show entries for each flight exercise endorsed by his instructor. Under other circumstances this is perfectly acceptable of course.

[BackPacker]

True. Whatever he does, he'll have to send the current logbook to the CAA this once as his PPL endorsements and flights are in there.

The only way around this is to start from scratch altogether. Which means visiting all the instructors again and begging for a new signature.

[MOREOIL]

What on earth are you trying to get into the remarks space? Other than the ex number. If you need to write war and peace after each flight get a diary.

[ZuluPapa]

That is exactly what I did. In fact, during the last week of my training just after I had completed my mock exam, I got a new logbook and painstakingly transferred every entry across.

Until your logbook has been signed by your CFI and submitted to the CAA you can change it, no probs. The CAA will only look through the remarks to see that exercises 1-18 have been completed. They don't give a monkeys about the wax or any other malarkey you find necessary to record.

Send yourself an email after each flight and keep a record of your experiences there...

[Odai]

Thanks for all the help guys.

My handwriting isn't great and as a result a while back I made the decision just to use the logbook as a 'rough copy', with the intention of buying a new one (with larger boxes) after my skills test and copying everything over. My instructor reccommended the same.

With regard to signatures, it won't be an issue as there are basically only 4 or 5 pages to sign IIRC, so it wouldn't take 10 seconds to do. I have only ever had one instructor anyway.

With regard to the remarks, I'm simply putting in exercise numbers and nav waypoints as per my instructor's advice.

Looking through the pages, it would be great if I could just salvage this copy. The problem is, when I decided just to get a new logbook (a few months back) I became lax with the presentation, started making abbreviations up for remarks, using ICAO designators instead of full names for airfields etc.

However, if the CAA do indeed only need to see that all the exercises have been completed and using ICAO codes for airfields is acceptable, then I might be able to salvage this copy and save myself the hassle/expense. The exercise numbers are readable, and so are the hour totals etc.

[jxk]

The AFE logbook is pretty bad too. The SINGLE ENGINE in COMMAND column is right in the middle of the two pages were most of my entries are. Some countries need you record cross country hours, t/os ldgs etc so try and detail (and total) as much detail as you can just in case you ever want to apply for a foreign licence. I also like to record who I flew with, it makes interesting reading and brings back many happy reminiscences years later.

[Pilotage]

If you want more space, just buy a commercial logbook. There's no rule that says you have to have a PPL logbook for PPL flying, you can use anything that suits you.

The Pooleys commercial (non-JAR) one is quite good, as is the CAA logbook. I've been using the former for a couple of decades, and more of that time was as a PPL than a commercially qualified pilot.

Transair or Pooleys sell a selection - just go into a shop and pick one.

As for copying up - a few tens of hours are neither here nor there, and just hang onto the original logbook in case you're ever challenged. CAA are however very unlikely to challenge you so long as the course summary statement by your school are original, which they will be.

P

[Odai]

Hello,

Sorry to bump this thread, but I think I may go for this logbook:

ASA SP-6 Pilot Master Logbook - Detailed item view - Leading Flight Equipment, Pilot Supplies, Aircraft Equipment, Aviation Headsets (http://proviationshop.co.uk/shop/article_ASA-SP-6-NLB101/ASA-SP-6-Pilot-Master-Logbook.html?pse=coa)

Any feedback on the above? It seems to cover everything I could possibly need to log, whether commercial or private.

The only thing I can't figure out is why many of the columns are split into one large space and one smaller. :confused:

Alternatively, I guess an electronic/online logbook would be considerably safer and more efficient. There's just the question of how readily the CAA/EASA would accept this?

Thanks,

Odai.

[jxk]

The only thing I can't figure out is why many of the columns are split into one large space and one smaller. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/confused.gifHrs : Mins (decimal or 5 min increments) peut-être

[abgd]

As an aside, I understand it's allowable to use tippex in logbooks? This seems to me unusual in a legal document.

[taxistaxing]

It's a piece of your property so you can feel free to tippex at will, or write whatever you want into it! It isn't really a "legal document" in the way a contract might be. If you submit it as evidence of flying experience for the purposes of license issue, then of course it must accurately record your flying experience to date. Beyond that the aesthetics don't really matter, which I suppose explains the wide range of styles available on the market.

[Odai]

But then what guarantee is there that a pilot will not just simply get a page of entries signed off, then edit at will to make the hours accrued bigger? I would have thought that if the CAA, or any authority, received a logbook full of correction fluid it would have raised suspicions. :p

[AdamFrisch]

I've always derived great satisfaction from filling in an old school printed logbook right after the shutdown. It's like a little ritual I have. But I've just bought LogBook Pro and will transfer all my logbook entries (horrendous task) into it so I have an electronic backup, should the printed one ever go missing or get destroyed. The good thing about an electronic one is that it keeps track of everything - medicals, times, expirations etc.

[taxistaxing]

But then what guarantee is there that a pilot will not just simply get a page of entries signed off, then edit at will to make the hours accrued bigger? I would have thought that if the CAA, or any authority, received a logbook full of correction fluid it would have raised suspicions. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/tongue.gif


I don't think there are any guarantees. The system relies on the participants being honest! There's a specific offence under the ANO which (I think) prohibits making misleading statements about hours to obtain qualifications, but this must be difficult to police.

There are ways the CAA could check your entries, e.g. calling the airports you say you've visited and asking to see ATC records, or cross checking your log against the tech logs of the aircraft you've flown. Very difficult if it's your own aircraft or if you fly to unlicensed fields where there are no ATC records.

Not sure how often this happens in practise, but I've read stories of pilots with "parker pen" flying hours at all levels up to and including airlines! e.g.

Pilot suspended over logbook 'fake' | UK news | The Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2001/mar/28/stevenmorris)

[abgd]

It wouldn't surprise me if they phoned up airports to verify t/o and landing times once in a while - it would be relatively easy to do and you might hope to catch any substantial percentage of parker hours with only a few calls.

Early on I messed up the way I'd recorded all my times and had to copy out about 40 hours of flying into a new logbook. It was surprisingly difficult to do without making a further mess. The flying school kept a free stock of identical biros so even legitimate hours logged probably looked suspicious!

[taxistaxing]

It wouldn't surprise me if they phoned up airports to verify t/o and landing times once in a while


Yep, this would at least identify flights that never took place. Even here though your takeoff and landing times may be legitimately different from your logged time. Particularly at busy fields where you may have taxied away from your start position, and been held for 20 mins before taking off. There is a lot of scope of fudging your logged hours.

It has certainly come as a surprise to me (as someone who scrupulously records their time I might add!) to realise how few checks and balances there are in the system. :sad:

[BAe 146-100]

But then what guarantee is there that a pilot will not just simply get a page of entries signed off, then edit at will to make the hours accrued bigger? I would have thought that if the CAA, or any authority, received a logbook full of correction fluid it would have raised suspicions.

Some people have and will continue to go down that route which is blatant forgery. However, if you have any kind of incident/accident which involves investigation no matter how big or small you can bet your bottom dollar that your hours will be investigated as I believe this is standard practice, if you have been found to have forged hours you will be in a whole lot of trouble to put it mildly and have great difficulty in obtaining licences again.

[Odai]

Fair enough, but as taxistaxing implied, there does seem to be an awful lot of holes in a system that awards flying privileges based on reported experience...

[RTN11]

Anyone found any decent electronic logbook software?

Specifically one that will download flights directly from your airlines server to save you the work?

I've been looking at this one, but it's a little pricey if it doesn't work.

mccPILOTLOG Logbook Software (http://www.mccpilotlog.net/)

having said that, I'm currently on my fourth logbook as it is, each at a cost of around £15.

[Thecope]

For pilots logbook is free. Not bad if your low on money.

[peregrineh]

log10 pro on iTunes is awesome. Check out its capabilities.

[fwjc]

I have been using excel for the last 8 years as a digital back-up to my paper log book. It means that whatever bespoke stats I need to com up with, I can pull them out really easily. I also record interesting pax rides in it, but obviously I've set these to not count in the totals.

Bonus is that it's free. I keep a master copy at work and email regular updates to my private email address so no matter where I am, if I can get my email, I can get my log book and whatever detail I want from it.

[mary meagher]

Ah Odai, back again I see, and still viewing with skepticism any advice tendered by these helpful posters.

To all of them, and you if you wish to take advice, PHOTOCOPY and keep separately every page of your logbook.
Don't hesitate to use more than one line to record details of flights, there is no requirement to be analy retentive, or tidy; and the more detail the more cherished will be your records. For example, recording weather conditions, instructors, challenges, landouts, crashes, etc etc. The more detail the better, and do NOT go back and copy everything over into a fancy professional book, that will definitely give an impression of doubtful veracity and posing.

[Odai]

Ah Odai, back again I see, and still viewing with skepticism any advice tendered by these helpful posters.

What on Earth are you referring to? :confused:

The more detail the better, and do NOT go back and copy everything over into a fancy professional book, that will definitely give an impression of doubtful veracity and posing.

The issue here is that some of my entries will likely be illegible to someone who isn't familiar with some of the waypoints etc in my logbook. I made no effort to correct them at the time believing there wouldn't be any issue in copying all my entries more neatly around the time I finish my PPL. My school, including the CFI, have told me it should be fine to copy over. :)

[mary meagher]

I was referring to your memorable thread entitled "Newbie looking to upgrade to Cirrus." Case rests.

[Odai]

I've looked into mccpilotlog, and downloaded the PC and mobile software. It looks very impressive, and does pretty much everything I might need.

The cost isn't huge, as there is only a one time fee of 69 euros, and considering I'd never need to buy another paper logbook (at about £20 a pop) again it seems cost effective.

The options to export include either a PDF or a hardcopy printed in a choice of different standard formats. Any ideas if the CAA/EASA would accept this? It'd be a massive pain if I logged all my flying electronically and then had to go back and put it all into a paper book because the authorities won't accept the former.