French Air Force with Civil Registrations...Question?

[JanetFlight]

Hi all?

Sometimes here at my job we have to deal with some French Air Force/COTAM tech-stops, and sometimes we still have this doubt:

Almost every FPL issued has on its Reg Remark field, a registration as for example:
F-RAIE, RAIM, F-ZZZx, ZZZY, etc...but however on the plane itself the tale number/reg for example is 62-IS, IL, etc...

And even when talking with the crews its those numbers and letters on the tail/fuselage they prefer for us to use on traffic forms, mvt's, etc...

So here it goes my question...if there is no place in the plane where we can see those civil marks, and even the crew use the ones painted on the tail/fuselage when questioned, whats the purpose of these "F-" civil ones?
And why the purpose of this very unique policy for the FAF/COTAM planes?

Tanx in advance...JF

[EGTE]

The "civil registration" is not that but instead is a radio callsign. The "last two" of the callsign usually relate to the letters in the code so that 62-IS might have the callsign F-RAIS for example.

I'm sure that one of our French colleagues will be able to explain the system much more eloquently.

[wiggy]

if there is no place in the plane where we can see those civil marks, and even the crew use the ones painted on the tail/fuselage when questioned, whats the purpose of these "F-" civil ones?

FWIW an FAF Airbus was parked up at the Terminal at Blagnac (LFBO) the other day and it was definitely was wearing its "F-" civvie reg on the rear fuselage...(no, I didn't log it..)

Another one here:

F-ZWUG Armée de l'Air (French Air Force) Airbus A330-223 - Planespotters.net Just Aviation (http://www.planespotters.net/Aviation_Photos/photo.show?id=152661)

[sycamore]

F-Z... is usually a `test` aircraft,even temporary...

[Pontius Navigator]

A British military aircraft used to use a similar system. IIRC it would me Mike ABCD or RAFAIR NNNN. These are State (ie Nation State) designations. Royal Navy I think would use NAVAIR.

These designators or RT callsigns are internationally agreed. The 4 numbers allocated could refer to a specific route with overflight rights and really are no different from civil aircraft flight numbers.

[wiggy]

F-Z... is usually a `test` aircraft,even temporary...

Ah ha, thanks. Just for avoidance of confusion the Blaganc A330 I saw wasn't a Z. They're regular visitors ( usually trooping the local paras/Foreign legion to places exotic) and as an ex-spotter I've always thought it a bit odd they were displaying civvie regs. Just for curiosities sake I'd be interested as to why - French version of PFI perhaps ( I guess that would be a IFP :rolleyes:)???

[EGTE]

F-Z serials can be test registrations but are also used by state owned aircraft such as the aeroplanes and helicopters operated by the Securite Civile for example.

[ORAC]

You are confusing the aircraft registered serial number with the base/unit code which is displayed on the tail. The base/unit code will change if the aircraft is reassigned to a new unit, the aircraft serial number is assigned during manufacture and stays with the aircraft for life.

Link to website on French aircraft here (http://www.aeroflight.co.uk/waf/france/francaf1.htm). Specific link to FAF aircraft here (http://www.aeroflight.co.uk/waf/france/af/fra-af-home.htm).

Aircraft Serial Numbering System(s):

French Air Force aircraft carry French military serial numbers which are usually based on the manufacturers construction number for the airframe concerned. There is thus no overall numbering sequence, but a numbering sequence from 01 or 1 for each individual type. For example, MS.760 Paris 92 shares the same number as N.2501 Noratlas 92.

Unit/Base Aircraft Code System(s):

Most AdlA aircraft carry tactical code numbers of the form xx-AA, eg: Mirage 2000D 3-XE, where the first number denotes the Escadre (Wing), the first letter indicates the Escadron (Squadron) and the second letter denotes the individual aircraft.

[BossEyed]

[I am not a spotter, honest]

It is F-W... that is the sequence for test aircraft.

F-Z... denotes "State owned", and as well as Ade'lA, ALAT and FN aircraft you also see it on Gendermarie, Douanes, Coast Guard equivalent etc

[/I am not a spotter, honest]

[Double Hydco]

So here it goes my question...if there is no place in the plane where we can see those civil marks, and even the crew use the ones painted on the tail/fuselage when questioned, whats the purpose of these "F-" civil ones?
And why the purpose of this very unique policy for the FAF/COTAM planes?


Many moons ago, I worked in operations at an RAF station in Germany. The FAF were regular visitors, and as you say a F- registration was quoted on the flight plan. I'm sure I remember the AlphaJets carrying a small "civil" registration on the airframe, but I could be mistaken.

I was under the impression that they were issued to ease the process of obtaining diplomatic clearances and overflights?

DH

[TBM-Legend]

In the olden days the RAAF used used "civil style" call signs being VM-xxx* as distinct from civil regn of VH-yyy.

These were allocated by squadron and used for ATC purposes. EG. No.10 Sqn P-2's were VM-XD[x} where the last letter indicated the crew.
Tactical call-signs were used for exercises or training.

All stopped one day and squadron call-signs became the norm

*Nothing was painted on individual aircraft in that format.

[Q-RTF-X]

I seem to remember (dim distant past of 50 odd years ago) the Israeli AF (certain types anyhow) bore civil registration markings. I think we (Visiting Aircraft Servicing Flight) at Akrotiri occasionally handled IAF Noratlas aircraft in a camouflage paint scheme carrying what seemed like a civil aircraft registration (4X- something). Word around the section at the time suggested this was principally to ease the process of obtaining overflight/landing permissions etc. Perhaps a similar situation ?

[BBadanov]

*Nothing was painted on individual aircraft in that format.

Hi R, not quite true.
The Navy Goonies did have the radio callsigns painted on the fins. Eg A65-23 was VJ-ORA, A65-43 was VJ-ORB. Didn't see any others though.

[elpilotofrances]

here you got your answer:

Aéronefs militaires

F-Mxxx Armée de Terre
sauf F-MJxx Gendarmerie

F-Rxxx Armée de l'air
F-Sxxx Armée de l'air
F-Txxx Armée de l'air
F-Uxxx Armée de l'air

F-Xxxx Marine nationale
F-Yxxx Marine nationale

F-Zxxx Direction générale de l'Armement
sauf F-ZBAA à F-ZBLZ Douanes
sauf F-ZBMA à F-ZBZZ Sécurité Civile

[JanetFlight]

Hi all and tanx to all, for all your inputs and contributions.

However one doubt remains...is it those civil markings the official ones and also the ones in wich we should use to identify the plane itself, or the tail/fuselage markings, or all of those civil ones (except the Airbus, Falcons, Cessnas, etc wich use them painted on the outside) are a kind of FPL's fictional purpose?

As i said those civil ones are only depicted on the FPL's, and not on the plane itself, and when questioned the crews about that doubt, most of them dont know also wich civil reg. its attributed to their own planes, they only know it if they see the FPL's or besides that, they still identify their planes with the usual "Numbers+Letters" tail/fuselage markings.

As an airport authority and management we still dont know wich ones are the official ones to use in messages, mvt's, traffic forms, etc?

And being myself an airline pilot too, but without flying due personal issues for some years, i think remembering my ground air law instructors on the ATC issues, that we always should use in the reg.marking field at the FPL the ones painted in the fuselage/tail, mainly due to the safety concerns in case of a crash, accident, etc, to ease identify the plane wich crashed or got missed...:confused:

With my best regards...tanx again...JF

[5aday]

Diplomatic clearances?

[BATCO]

"Diplomatic Clearances"

As Dep Def Attache somewhere really nice I used to submit DipClears on behalf of ASCOT Ops and others. As I recall the reg no of the a/c was not important (airframes get changed) it was the Flight Number/callsign which was key.

My host nation often picked us up for using 'ASCOT xxxx' and 'RR xxxx' interchangeably.

Batco

[plans123]

Possibly because it should have been RRR :ok:

[Pontius Navigator]

My host nation often picked us up for using 'ASCOT xxxx' and 'RR xxxx' interchangeably.

At one point we used RAFJET in the mistaken belief that jets should use that and not RAFAIR.

Any ancient warrior remember what the transports used before ASCOT? Was it just RAFAIR?