Standard Speeds

[Capt Pit Bull]

The environment: TMA arrival to radar vectors.

Most STARs have speed limit points. What are they there for?

Here is my interpretation. Its the Pilots job to fly at an appropriate speed to join a hold or get the aircraft around any other procedural work, not withstanding that I'm sure people sometimes mess it up and take up half the sky with a 300 Kt hold join.

Surely if ATC want us at a particular speed, they would just tell us. But in a busy TMA RT utilisation is critical. Therefore publish 'standard speed control' to get everyone at roughly suitable speed for sequencing and save RT workload.

Is this assumption on my part correct?

The reason I ask is that I seem to fly with ever increasing numbers of colleagues who habitually want to maintain high speed. Hence, when they are the non handling pilot they either ask ATC (without me asking) whether the speed control applies to us today. When it is their sector they ask me to ask ATC.

Now, obviously maintaining high speed for a while might be suitable, e.g. when things are obviously quiet and we are on a straight in, but what I feel is inappropriate is the habitual asking of 'does the speed control apply today'.]

The reasons I feel it is inappropriate are twofold.

Firstly, if my assumption above is correct, then what should be an RT saving measure actually becomes counterproductive.

Secondly, most of the time it doesn't get us there any quicker. When we land is a function of our place in the sequence. If we fly faster at the beginning we'll either just get put under more speed control earlier in the intermediate approach, or we'll get sent further down wind before meeting our gap in the approach stream. In which case more track miles at higher speed equals a double whammy of extra fuel burn.

And yet so many of my colleauges seem to think that maintaining high speed in the arrival is invariably a good thing that I'm starting to wonder whether I'm missing something!

To be honest I almost wish to hear 'does the speed control apply to us?' met with something like 'Of course, since I haven't told you anything different'.


So tell me, controllers, do you ever sit there and think something like that but not say it? Do you think us asking wastes RT? Does it make your blood boil? Or does it not bother you?

Basically I'd like to be offer firmer guidance to my colleagues, and would appreciate the controllers point of view.

CPB

[MacDoris]

Generally if you have not been on a speed restriction and we say nothing we expect the speed limit by the speed limit point for all the reasons you say. I have no problem with peolpe asking unless it is obviously very busy but if we can see a potential benefit of you staying fast we will tell you just as if slowing earlier may reduce you holding we will give you that option.
Some airports however have SLP's a long way further back ie Stanstead from the north, so more often than not the SLP restriction is lifted and "expect 220kts by BKY is more common" hence why on this route the "is there any speed restriction" is very common. Why not move the SLP in that case? Because in the summer or at busy times that SLP helps with other TMA situations.
So basically if we say nothing stick to the SLP's and if it is hectic on the RT dont ask.

[BEXIL160]

Capt PB...

I've often told Pilots that "Standard Speeds Apply" or 250 kts (or whatever) at the SLP, and yes it does sometimes use up precious RT time when we're asked and the freq is busy.

If I need you to fly a particular speed I will say so. By the way, I, and my colleagues, don't use speed control for any other reason than to help YOU and everybody else in the sky get organised into a nice sequence to improve the landing rate. Even if you end up in the hold, as well as being 1000ft vertically separated you'll be spaced laterally as well, instead of being slap bang on top of each other. This makes taking a sequence of a/c off the hold much easier. So, when you are "speeded" and still end up in hold it really hasn't been a waste of effort, honest.

From your post I know that you appreciate this but it seems to me that some of your fellow pilots don't.

As McD says above, if we say nothing STICK to the SLP, if it's busy DON'T askl, and if we give you a speed try to fly it as accurately as possible.


Rgds BEX.

P.S. LACC at Swanwick has extremely accurate Ground Speed readout now.

;)

[Ayr-Rage]

Agree completely !
Please plan on the speed limit points, and take it as a bonus if we manage to de-restrict you.
The same goes for the decent planning notes contained in the STARS for the Scottish TMA (FL260 by Margo/NEW and various others), they are there for a very good reason, the higher ones so that you get below the transatlantic traffic, and the lower ones so that you get below some departure standing agreements between the TMA sectors.
Most of the Scottish TMA controllers lift the speed and level restrictions when it is possible, so please don't hassle us on first call 100 miles from touchdown and ask us a question to which we cannot give an honest answer....once the inbound order becomes a little more apparent we may get you all to fly 280 knots if there are no turboprops around and everyone is reasonably happy !

[Sniff]

Ok follow on question.

On deps from LHR, on first call to LATC we are always told 'no speed'. For lower chat on the RT I would have thought that this could be assumed, and should the 250kt restriction be needed then tower, or terminal could re-apply it. What do you think?

(Slightly different than LGW coz of the departure turns there!)

Sniff.

[Over+Out]

The 250kts is fail safe. It is used to ensure departure separation.
If you called in 'late' and were already above 250kt it could cause us big problems. But, it is true speed restriction is normally cancelled on first call.

[foo fighting]

Sniff & Capt Pit Bull,

As has been said below, do what the book says unless we, as we will always invariably try to do, cancel any in/out speed restriction to help you. It is a major teaching point and operational tool in the London TMA. On the other hand do not take the p*$$ with us, it will not get you anywhere. Please remember that we have a much wider picture than you think we might have.

[Sniff]

Foo - Trust me, I always do...My question originates from quite a few other airfields around Europe where there is either no speed control on departure, or the requirement has been deleted recently.

Keep me safe folks! :)

[callyoushortly]

Ayr rage....
Being on the receiving end of the TMA feed up north, it seems to me that "No speed restriction" is a standard on first call at Scottish. To be honest, I'm not sure that any of the traffic we get is ever subject to SLP's, or for that matter the descent restrictions, or maybe some of the scrapes we get into, especially on 06, may be avoided.

Just a point about the turbo-props, most of them end up going faster than the jets at the levels we deal with, and bringing jets in before the props can often end up making more work below FL100. Jets being handed over at 300kts or greater doesn't help any of us when the first call to us is "reducing to 250kts" and there's a turbo-prop going faster just behind.

[radar707]

At EGPF, most of the arrivals route through class E airspace, how many pilots are aware of the requirements in class E airspace (not too many I think!!!!)
We will do our best not to apply an ATC speed restriction, but if we do apply a speed restriction then it is for a GOOD reason, not because we feel like being awkward, we wil generally do everything we can to get you on the ground and off the frequecy as soon as we can :-))
On a lighter note, an ATP into EGPF will (if asked) do 230kts to 4d, I'll always try and get them in ahead of the jets (so much easier,)( unless they're following the twin otter)

[Ayr-Rage]

Hi "callyoushortly" and all others at the Capital's airport.
I agree that sometimes you are presented with a load of c*** on 06, but the watch I work with certainly does not present you with 3 abreast on that runway all going fast.....we have enough ex-airfield people to realise the problems that gives you.
I personally always start to aim for TWEED when there are more than 3 arrivals in close proximity, and then "offer" you the traffic, and if you decide to take it into the sequence all well and good and if I have to put it in the hold, no big panic from my point of view.
I agree that some more education is needed with some AREA controllers, especially those with no Approach Radar experience.
Finally, a slightly off-topic question for the Edinburgh people....when both you and Glasgow are on "easterlies", why don't you make more use of the buffer zone (and beyond) and run aircraft on parallel base legs when there is no traffic between you and the GLG ?

[callyoushortly]

Radar707 I totally agree about Class E airspace, speaking to some of those pilots based at Edi, it seems they have no idea about the constraints we have and the problems it might just cause them!! I'm sure it's exactly the same over there!
And as for the ATP, ditto..... Dornier 328's, JS32/41, you name it, it's props go quicker than a jet at lower levels.

Ayr-rage The scenario you put forward with 3 arrivals.... blimey, that sounds like heaven!!! Can you please move to the watch opposite mine!!!
As regards the buffer, when we're both on easterlies, the buffer is automatically in Edi's possesion, to use as we wish, but you still find yourself struggling for space when you're dealing with 3 abreast.
To get back to the topic, if we could start using the STARS a little more and standard speeds were applied, then I'm sure traffic would find they were delayed less (or had less track miles) for the sake of a small speed restriction, or a routing towards TWEED, not necessairily to enter the hold, but just to provide a loophole should the situation warrant it.