Can an FAA Flight Instructor Give Training Abroad?

[John99163123]

If I am an FAA flight instructor, am I entitled to give training towards FAA licenses abroad? For instance, could I open a flight school in Chile, with the intent of offering American licenses to locals?

[sapperkenno]

It would depend on what the various Chilean authorities rulings are.

[peterh337]

Correct.

For example, he can do it in the UK, but if he charges money for the flying then he needs to have a JAR-FCL (now EASA) CPL or ATPL. (No, don't ask me why :) ).

The standard workarounds, for FAA-only-rated instructors, are to fly outside UK airspace before the "lesson" starts, or to charge for "ground school" only.

I believe all of Europe has similar restrictions, though some countries care more than others.

The FAA has no known restrictions on where FAA CFIs/CFIIs work, and anyway all ICAO training is accepted towards any FAA license or a rating (so really an FAA instructor is not needed for most of the stuff; not many people know that) but there are considerable difficulties in arranging FAA checkrides outside the USA. The FAA DPE needs an authorisation from one of the FAA offices that cover foreign regions and this is where problems lie, and it is mainly for this reason why most people do the whole thing in the USA where you get a well organised smooth process from start to finish.

[zondaracer]

I also believe that FAA training completed in the UK also requires the aircraft to be approved with Department for Transport, correct?

Lasty, the DPE may or may not need an appropriate visa to charge for a flight test abroad, depending on the rules of each country.

[peterh337]

I also believe that FAA training completed in the UK also requires the aircraft to be approved with Department for Transport, correct?Not as such, but Aerial Work (basically renumerated flight training etc) requires a DfT permission. The type of training is not relevant, but the permission is officially available only to owners and (subject to limits) part-owners. The aircraft reg is specified in the permission but the aircraft itself does not need any approval.

the DPE may or may not need an appropriate visa to charge for a flight test abroad, depending on the rules of each country. Not usually in Europe. If you read the Visa regs on the UK Home Office website, they don't apply to the most likely operating mode which is essentially occassional business visits. If they did, it would not be possible for e.g. a Boeing rep to visit Europe to check out a 737 which has had some work done to it.

For Chile, no idea. I am sure they have their own rules, which (like in most of the world) are modifiable by the application of an appropriate amount of hard currency ;)

[zondaracer]

Thanks for the clarification on DfT rules.

I don't know about Chile and visas either, but every country is different.

[Whopity]

For example, he can do it in the UK, Not quite that simple. It would depend what the training was for. Ab-initio training to a non licence holder cannot be given in the UK by a FAA licence holder unless they also have a licence and instructor rating that is valid in the UK.

[peterh337]

Ab-initio training to a non licence holder cannot be given in the UK by a FAA licence holder unless they also have a licence and instructor rating that is valid in the UK. Is there a rule, Whopity, on this?

Indeed I don't think there is any practical way to teach the whole of an ab initio FAA PPL in the UK, to somebody who does not already have any flying license, but it is for a different reason:

One could do the training up to the solo stage. There is no apparent issue with that. For example if I was an FAA CFI, I could just fly with e.g. my son and he could log the lessons. Those logbook entries are 100% legitimate, and could have been done on the Moon, in a plane registered on Mars, because the FAA does not restrict where and what in.

If he was paying me then I would either have to do it in an N-reg (and need the DfT permission for that) or do it in a G-reg (for which I would need to be a JAR-FCL PPL instructor and that is what you may be referring to, but I would then have to work through an ATO anyway so the question is meaningless).

What is not possible is the solo portions. In the USA this is done on the privileges of the Student Pilot Certificate (a piece of paper which IME one is given by the FAA AME) but this is not valid outside the USA.

So the only way is to go into the JAA/EASA PPL pipeline, pretend to be working towards the JAA/EASA PPL, get the solo hours out of the way within that, and then go back to the FAA CFI and do all the rest with him, and then book a DPE for the checkride.

I know a few people looked at doing this but don't think anybody has actually done it because it seems so pointless. You have to pass at least a few exams before the school will let you finish the solo portions, and you have to get the JAA medical.

So you may as well finish the whole JAA PPL, get the NQ, and then doing an FAA PPL is just a few more hours, the night x/c flight, the FAA medical, the 3hrs with an FAA CFI within 60 days of the checkride, and the DPE checkride. Loads and loads of people in the UK, myself included, have done exactly that, on the way to their FAA IRs, with various outfits which have hung out around the UK at various times :)

And I would imagine one could do exactly that in every other country in the world, because the FAA accepts all ICAO training, meaning that the only hours you need to do with an FAA instructor are the 3hrs mentioned above.

It is usually simpler and much more streamlined to just go to the USA.

[B2N2]

To the OP, yes you can.
The FAA allows this.
You need to however meet all the requirements of TSA registration and approval.
Other than that you can teach anything anywhere.
National rules will determine if this is legal in the intended country.

[Knut]

I understand the business with the DoT banning FAA instructors instructing in N reg aircraft in the UK (unless permission has been granted etc.) but is there anything to stop an FAA instructor teaching FAA licence stuff in a G reg aircraft in the UK? I haven't seen any FAA reg that says the reg of the aircraft matters.

[peterh337]

"You need to however meet all the requirements of TSA registration and approval."Not for training which happens to be in your logbook "somehow" and which the FAA accepts (obviously).

the business with the DoT banning FAA instructors instructing in N reg aircraft in the UK (unless permission has been granted etc.) There is no such ban. Never has been AFAIK.

The aircraft owner of a foreign reg plane has to get DfT permission if he is paying an instructor (any instructor including a UK one) for the flight. So e.g. I have just done a JAA IR reval in my N-reg plane with a JAA CRE/IRR and I had to get the DfT permission for that flight. Had we flown outside the UK airspace first, the DfT perm would not have been necessary.

but is there anything to stop an FAA instructor teaching FAA licence stuff in a G reg aircraft in the UK? There is no restriction in FAA rules as to which aircraft reg an FAA CFI/CFII can train in.

There is a claimed N-reg requirement on the aircraft used by an FAA DPE for the checkride, though I have never seen this in the FAA regs.

Historically, in the UK, FAA checkrides used to be occassionally done in G-regs but because an instructor/examiner in a G-reg needs to have a JAA CPL (if money is being paid), on such flights there would be a JAA FI in the RHS and the FAA DPE (who never had a JAA CPL or JAA-anything) would sit in the back. This practice ended at the request of the UK CAA (to the FAA) after a well known fatal Cessna twin crash some years ago in which the UK instructor got killed.

If an FAA CFI/CFII trains in a G-reg, he needs to have a JAA CPL also, which very few have, and those who do have it are in great demand.

I don't know the details behind this stuff but I gather that on any instructional flight in a G-reg the LHS is PU/T even if he has papers adequate to be PIC. On the FAA scene, such a "student" would log as PIC and would actually be PIC. It's all pretty weird.

Another "little" thing is that if an FAA CFI/CFII does paid instructing in UK airspace (even in an N-reg) he needs the JAA CPL. Various workarounds exist for this: doing the "training" outside UK airspace, charging for "ground school", etc. Or of course just doing it genuinely for free, which also avoids the DfT permission.

[B2N2]

Not for training which happens to be in your logbook "somehow" and which the FAA accepts (obviously).



And this is where you are wrong...AGAIN
Any training towards the issuance of a license or rating requires the TSA approval.
If you are not using it towards the issuance of a license or rating why even log it anyway since it's just recreational noodling around?

There is a claimed N-reg requirement on the aircraft used by an FAA DPE for the checkride, though I have never seen this in the FAA regs.

14 CFR 61.45
§ 61.45
Practical tests: Required aircraft and equipment.
(a) General. Except as provided in paragraph (a)(2) of this section or when permitted to accomplish the entire flight increment of the practical test in a flight simulator or a flight training device, an applicant for a certificate or rating issued under this part must furnish:
(1) An aircraft of U.S. registry for each required test that—
(i) Is of the category, class, and type, if applicable, for which the applicant is applying for a certificate or rating; and
(ii) Has a standard airworthiness certificate or special airworthiness certificate in the limited, primary, or light-sport category.
(2) At the discretion of the examiner who administers the practical test, the applicant may furnish—
(i) An aircraft that has an airworthiness certificate other than a standard airworthiness certificate or special airworthiness certificate in the limited, primary, or light-sport category, but that otherwise meets the requirements of paragraph (a)(1) of this section;
(ii) An aircraft of the same category, class, and type, if applicable, of foreign registry that is properly certificated by the country of registry; or

[peterh337]

Any training towards the issuance of a license or rating requires the TSA approval.NO.

Or at least you misunderstand what I was saying.

If you use pre-existing non-US training towards a US license or a rating, then obviously one does not need TSA approval for that non-US training.

For example if you have done a JAA PPL, 45hrs, and the NQ, and maybe some other stuff, and now you want an FAA PPL. You don't need to re-do all the hours for the FAA PPL under the TSA regime. Your existing training is accepted by the FAA as it is :ugh:

If you are not using it towards the issuance of a license or rating why even log it anyway since it's just recreational noodling around?Because a pilot normally logs all his flights.

I now have > 1500hrs logged. I have no intention of doing an ATP. But hey one day I might change my mind, knock off enough night time to make up 100, sit the FAA ATP exam and go for the ATP checkride. What you are suggesting is that I have to get retrospective TSA approval for the 1500hrs I accumulated since July 2000 :ugh:

The only conceivable scenario where TSA approval is required for training is where it is training obviously towards a specific US license or a rating. The vast majority of flight training in the PPL/CPL/IR arena, done outside the USA, is completely ambiguous as to the purpose. Let's assume I don't have an IR. I could go off in a G-reg (or N-reg) with a JAA IRI and knock off a 300nm x/c IFR flight, under ATC direction, with 3 different approaches etc/whatever, and 2 years later I could decide to embark on an FAA IR and that flight would meet the FAA IR x/c requirements. If you say I need to re-do that flight with TSA approval then I am absolutely staggered because that is not how the FAA system has ever worked.

An aircraft of the same category, class, and type, if applicable, of foreign registry that is properly certificated by the country of registry; Quite - so you can do an FAA checkride in a non US reg aircraft. The DPE has to agree to that, but that's obvious because the DPE has to agree to everything anyway otherwise he won't do the checkride.

[B2N2]

On February 13, 2003, the Department
of Justice (DOJ) issued a final rule
implementing Section 113 of ATSA.3
The DOJ rule applies to individual
training providers, training centers,
certificated carriers, and flight schools,
including those located in countries
other than the United States if they
provided training leading to a U.S.
license, certification, or rating (referred
to as ‘‘providers’’ in the DOJ rule).

Second, its applicability is clarified to
cover ‘‘a person operating as a flight
instructor, pilot school, or aviation
training center or subject to regulation
under this part.’’
Third, Section

Eighth, Section 612 clarifies the
definition of training that was in place
under Section 113 of ATSA. Section 113
defined ‘‘covered training’’ as ‘‘in-flight
training, training in a simulator, and any
other form or aspect of training.’’ (49
U.S.C. 44939(c)). Under Section 612,
‘‘training’’ means ‘‘training received
from an instructor in an aircraft or
aircraft simulator and does not include
recurrent training, ground training, or
demonstration flights for marketing
purposes.’’

‘‘Flight school’’ is defined as any pilot
school, flight training center, air carrier
flight training facility, or flight
instructor certificated under 14 CFR part
61, 121, 135, 141, or 142; or any other
person or entity that provides
instruction under 49 U.S.C. Subtitle VII,
Part A, in the operation of any aircraft
or aircraft simulator. TSA is defining
this term broadly to include any
individual, as well as any entity, that
provides such instruction. This
definition also includes any individual
or entity located outside of the U.S. that
provides such instruction. For example,
a flight school located in Canada that
provides instruction in the operation of
an aircraft or aircraft simulator under 49
U.S.C. Subtitle VII, Part A, that would
enable an individual to receive a U.S.
Airman’s Certificate is subject to this
rule.
‘‘Flight

Source: https://www.flightschoolcandidates.gov/IFR_Alien_Pilot.pdf

I now have > 1500hrs logged. I have no intention of doing an ATP. But hey one day I might change my mind, knock off enough night time to make up 100, sit the FAA ATP exam and go for the ATP checkride. What you are suggesting is that I have to get retrospective TSA approval for the 1500hrs I accumulated since July 2000

NO :rolleyes:
ATP has experience requirements and no training requirements.
So you do not need TSA approval for your 1500 hrs experience.

[peterh337]

B2N2

You have dug up a bunch of very fine quotes but you have not answered any of my example scenarios e.g. the use of the 300nm x/c flight towards an FAA IR at a later date.

I don't doubt your quotes are real, and I don't doubt somebody in the USA wrote that stuff, but your apparent point conflicts with the FAA's acceptance of prior ICAO-compliant training anywhere in the world, which is the actual position everywhere i.e. a pilot can come to the USA, with his logbooks, and the hours in there are accepted towards FAA licences/ratings no matter where that previous training was done.

Whoever wrote those requirements was clearly unaware of the FAA position on the acceptance of foreign training.

If one took your stuff literally (especially the first one) then all acceptance of previous foreign training would cease, totally.

All that would be permitted would be training by FAA CFI/CFII instructors, who are subject to TSA etc. if training towards a PPL, IR, ME and 1 or 2 other bits. The CPL and the ATP are, I believe, exempt (or has this changed recently?).

[Pitch+Power]

On a similar note, if someone were dual FAA + JAA instructor, could a single flight satisfy the FAA flight review ( with some ground instruction also) and the JAA 1 hr every 2 years SEP experience requirement?

[peterh337]

No reason why not.

[Ramjet555]

Wow, What a load of nonsense.
If you go abroad, then you need the qualifications in that
country for abinitio training.
IF, its an advanced aircraft, there may be some special
exemptions.

I've got rating in 3 countries, the only advantage I have
is that I can do training overseas, and I can do log book
endorsements, reviews, check rides, and therefore,
people with licences in multiple countries, can, if
they find the right instructor, do in one ride what would
take two or more rides with expensive travel.

If I move back to Aus, then I'll have to do a regular trip
back to the USA (where I don't live) to renew that FAA instructor rating.

[peterh337]

then I'll have to do a regular trip
back to the USA (where I don't live) to renew that FAA instructor rating.

Can't see why.

An FAA CFI/CFII living in say Europe can revalidate those ratings right there.

If you go abroad, then you need the qualifications in that
country for abinitio training.

Ab Initio training is always going to be a complicated example because of stuff like having to do it via local schools, and there is no apparent way to do an FAA PPL's solo sections in say the UK, but that's irrelevant to the basic question.

[Tinstaafl]

There are two, somewhat independent, sides to the answer.

#1: The FAA does not limit an FAA instructor's location w.r.t. giving instruction.

#2: The local regulations may limit who may give instruction in that jurisdiction, and how it may be done.

[Pitch+Power]

Wow, What a load of nonsense

Brilliant start to a reply.:ugh:


If I move back to Aus, then I'll have to do a regular trip
back to the USA
(where I don't live) to renew that FAA instructor rating.


Now that is a load of nonsense... I just revalidated/renewed my FAA instructor ratings for the 5th time, and never went to the USA for any of them.

[Tinstaafl]

What he/she/they ^ wrote. You can renew an FAA instructor rating online or by correspondence**


**Correspondence may have gone the way of the dodo though...

[lamby]

As a FAA CFIi and JAR FI a BFR does count as your 1 hour with a JAR instructor

[OldCrow01]

I have a US CFI/II licence and am a citizen (working and living) in The Netherlands. Someone with a US licence ask me to give him the 2-yearly Flight Review. Can I do so on a non-US registered aircraft? Anybody knows?
Thanks,

Hans

[sapperkenno]

I have a US CFI/II licence and am a citizen (working and living) in The Netherlands. Someone with a US licence ask me to give him the 2-yearly Flight Review. Can I do so on a non-US registered aircraft? Anybody knows?
Thanks,

Hans

Are you receiving payment? Is (at least) one of you legally allowed to fly the aircraft as PIC?

[OldCrow01]

No, no payment.
We are both legally allowed to fly the non-Faa registered aircraft.
Just a C172 or Archer.
Both of us are non-US citizens