Helipro New Zealand seconds away from causing mid air disaster ....

[bell hater]

Helipro - YouTube

Mid Air Crash avoided by quick thinking Rescue Crew. NZ Police training exercise involving STG. Two helicopters fast roping. While one in position other heli is providing sniper cover . Helipro Pilot briefed to drop STG and depart forward and and then left to come back to provide sniper cover for second heli (Westpac Rescue) drop off. Helipro pilot ignored the well briefed instructions and had rescue helicopter crew not acted a mid air collision would have occurred!!!!

youtube Ref

[bell hater]

Great reaction by other chopper crew .... what was Helipro Pilot thinking ... or more to the point NOT THINKING !!!! Who blindly backs up and pulls the collective to look good for the camera crew!!!!!! Must have been pulled to the roof !!!!

[MIA777]

I doubt very much that this was a planned manouvre having flown this sort of insertion u would expect the first Heli to manouvre fwd to allow the second insertion a fast and safe entry. Good old NZ doing things the cheap and nasty by having a local charter company do what anywhere else in the world would be done by the military or Police machines. Helipro Pilot sudden rush of blood to the head it seems and all very lucky to escape....quick reaction by westpac pilot though glad it was not a contact

[Adam Nams]

"Rope on board, clear above and behind..." :rolleyes:

[thepross]

BH

I did not see a problem, maybe i need to watch the vid a few more times but way to boring...

[leppo2]

I'm not so sure taking the time (or risk) of retrieving the fast rope is such a good idea. First, the aircraft is on station longer (exposure); the possibility of the rope bag turning into a sail and going straight up into the rotor system; the delay in getting all your assets on the ground as the second helicopter is waiting to insert.

Just drop the rope and have one of the troopers drag it aside so the next insertion of troops doesn't get caught up in it, and recover it upon completion of the mission.

[Evil Twin]

Just drop the rope and have one of the troopers drag it aside so the next insertion of troops doesn't get caught up in it, and recover it upon completion of the mission.

My thoughts entirely. I winced when the Westpac aircraft was retrieving the rope it flicked up close to the tail. Camera angle may have foreshortened the view, in all cases, but it looked too close for comfort.

[RVDT]

Cluster f**k!

2 helicopters in close proximity and blind to each other.

Relying on the one crewmen for separation!

Old trick - when in close proximity to each the guy in the blind spot shall keep the other aircraft visible and it is up to him to get out of the way. It works.

Agree on the recovery of the fast rope - it should stay with the team.

The kick it sideways to slow down in a 117? I hope you have plenty of T/R parts.

[helihub]

Lucky the 117s are slower and gave the Westpac pilot time to react.... anyone remember the pair of Mig29s that crashed at Fairford in 1993 - that was a case of being blind to each other..

GOdefN6TLTA

[HeloDrvr]

Besides the already mentioned concerns, hoists are generally not designed for Fast Roping.

Different shock loading and loads imposed. Not sure what model hoist they're equipped with, but I'm sure the manufacturer would not support this use.
And I've asked.

Results may be minor over time, or catastrophic in an instant.

[juliet]

That was ugly. And slow.

That whole setup was crap. I was surprised there wasn't a midair, or a rope flicking into the rotor, or had this been real, a shot down heli due to how long they spent hovering over the spot.

Hopefully now the RNZAF has the 109 they can take over this role and do it properly. That said the way the Kiwis have been doing things lately I doubt they would do much better!

[John Eacott]

Besides the already mentioned concerns, hoists are generally not designed for Fast Roping.

Different shock loading and loads imposed. Not sure what model hoist they're equipped with, but I'm sure the manufacturer would not support this use.
And I've asked.

Results may be minor over time, or catastrophic in an instant.

Rappelling/fast roping from the BK117 requires a kit which re-installs a longeron across the roof (which is deliberately trimmed during manufacture!) at a cost of $30k plus labour :eek: The rappelling bar then hangs from that longeron. SOP is usually to dump the rope not haul it back in, and fast roping should have an emphasis on 'fast' ;)

Maybe the Westpac machine would have been better off on the port quarter with the pilot in full sight and able to slide over when the HeliPro machine pulled off with the pilot better positioned to see where he's going? I don't know but I'd expect the pilots were in contact and able to see each other, no doubt we'll hear one way or the other. It looked very much like a strong wind off the ship's head that may have contributed to the strange approach, but considering it was a training exercise one hopes that a few lessons were learnt.

And that someone reads this thread and accepts the constructive criticism as a positive input to future exercises :ok:

[MIA777]

NZHerald

Terror test stuns voyagers

Thursday Nov 29, 2012


A video of the police anti-terrorist team sliding down ropes on to a Cook Strait ferry in a helicopter training exercise shows why passengers saw the incident as a near-disaster.

The clip shows five members of the elite Special Tactics Group sliding down from a Helipro helicopter, which then lifts back towards the trailing Westpac rescue helicopter.

The rescue helicopter banks to the left before pulling back from the approaching aircraft, piloted by Helipro's Rick Lucas.

Passengers watching can be heard talking about the move, with one calling it "really dodgy". Another says: "He didn't think he was going to come back on him, eh? He had a bit of a surprise coming back at him."

The note posted on YouTube with the video praises the rescue helicopter for "quick thinking" to avoid a crash, saying without it "a mid-air collision would have occurred". At least eight people were on the two aircraft.

Mr Lucas said the move was carefully planned and what was seen as a near-collision was actually a move carried out exactly as intended.


He said video footage of the training exercise was three years old, although was posted online just days ago, and gave a "distorted impression".

"We briefed the whole exercise prior to the event. The briefings are extensive. All pilots and all crews were aware of each other."

Westpac rescue helicopter operations manager Dave Greenberg said the staff had since left. "Everyone took the action they needed to ensure there wasn't a collision."

A police headquarters spokesman said it was understood there was no risk of a crash but "operational repositioning" was required.

He said both aircrews were fully briefed by the lead pilot and were able to see each other at all

[MIA777]

If thats the case then Its a carefully planned f.... Up...... its pretty obvious to any pilot watching....prob better to just put hand up to a mistake rather than lose all credability trying to call this precision flying......RL obvioulsy has not changed

[Flying Bull]

Hi all,

fast roping has its risks and own dynamics.
Dropping the rope isn't liked by ship captains, they fear it gets into the screw.
Second reason not to drop is the attached ring, which needs checking/replacing after dropping.
Stupid to have a sack attached, only a matter of time until it goes into the tail rotor.
They should do without.
Like These

nyG-24x6_jo

Greetings Flying Bull

[Nubian]

fast roping has its risks and own dynamics.
Dropping the rope isn't liked by ship captains, they fear it gets into the screw.
Second reason not to drop is the attached ring, which needs checking/replacing after dropping.


From what I can see, dropping the rope would not pose any real threat to the ships screw, so basically f...k the captain!
Second, if that bag with rope had flown into the tailrotor, the ships screw would have been the least of the captain's worries!

As for the ring, that has to be checked or replaced..... Come on, what beencounters idea is it to save a few dollars on that, compared to the risk of the crew of the helicopter, people on deck, the helicopter and the ship itself....(in case of crash on deck with a postcrash fire as a potential outcome) :ugh:

[bell hater]

Thepross

Yep Maybe watch again. You only need to watch up to first drop off and then the departure !:ugh:

[John Eacott]

BH,

Although this occurred a few years ago, it hasn't taken much checking to find that you seem to be blaming the wrong driver. As I alluded in my previous post, it would have made more sense for the Westpac ship to be top cover aft and left, allowing Rick to depart right and back when finished fast roping.

I understand that was the brief. Rick followed that plan, expecting the other BK to then slide in to the vacated space from his left.

If you know differently (other than relying upon comments on a three year old YouTube clip) then I stand to be corrected.

[hihover]

"....f**k the captain" ?? Seriously? This was an exercise. You sound like a real professional.

Tam Macklin

[Te_Kahu]

John, I sent bell hater a PM on 27 November outlining the facts of the exercise. Despite this, he has chosen to ignore the facts and tried to revive the thread to continue to have a crack at RL/Helipro.

It was an exercise. Lessons were learned. The boys in blue (or in black as it was that day) are not happy with it being rehashed in this way so long after the fact. I can't imagine that the pilot of the second ship is terribly impressed either.

TK

[onesquaremetre]

Leaving to one side the specifics of this exercise which have been discussed, can someone explain why what looks like civilian contractors are practising for a task that you would think should be being conducted by the military? Are there not issues with vetting for the pilots and the maintenance of strict secrecy before and after an event? Would the contractors have the ability to use a night vision device were such a task to (sensibly) take place after dark?

Sorry to ask such questions but from 12,000 miles away it looks a little strange to see what I'm assuming is a counter-terrorist team swarming down ropes from a bright red civilian helicopter in broad daylight to a passenger ferry where their planned technique can be recorded and broadcast to the world. :confused:

[Scissorlink]

Can a Huey or Bell 47 keep up with the Interislander ?

[Nubian]

Hihover,

Did you understand my post, or just reacted to my remark?
I understand it was an exercise. Even more important to reduce the possibility of a disaster. These things must have been planned and agreed with the boat's captain.
In other words, the risk of a disaster is far greater in the way things went, than if a diffrent way of disposing of the ropes from the helicopter had been planned.(and I am not even talking about the potensional mid-air)

I would not have wanted the exercise dictated by a boats captain if this would jeapordise the safety of everyone involved. Get my point? This was a reply to Flying Bulls post which says boat captains don't like this practise.

I know 3 pilots which have had their run-ins with bags/tarps entering the rotors, main and tail, and it have almost ended in tears, only 3 written off helicopters, but all occupants survived. (one was caught on film and is on youtube), and in all cases the objects were further away from the helicopters than the bag on the line in this video....:eek:

So pardon me, for my unprofessionalism...

[hihover]

No I don't get your point matey.

At the briefing, IF, the ship's Captain did not want the ropes to be dropped after the insertion then he puts the ball right back into the helicopter captain's court for him to decide how he will achieve the aim.

At no point in the whole training scenario do I see justification for your comment.

Tam

[Nubian]

You need thicker skin mate!

I'm not sure you'll ever get it then, and it really is not my problem.

Cheer up

[Chinook]

Muppet. Brief what you will fly. Fly what you briefed.

QED