View Full Version : Names on electronic tickets
Solar
26th Nov 2012, 20:53
Checking in recently at BHD on the worlds favourite the check in girl pointed out that I would need to be careful with how my name appeared on the booking reference as some airlines are now charging a fee as in my case the name on the ticket reference was my middle name and not my first name as appears on my passport.
This I could understand where in some cultures the first name is perhaps the family name but as I am Irish/British I fail to see how they could justify an additional fee just because your first name as in your passport does not appear on the ticket reference.
I have always been known by my middle name and this is the one that I use for everything
other than official documents that specify your full name is required.
The girl obviously did not specify an airline but I suspect we all know who she was refering to.
Be interesting to see how it would stand up if one was to be asked for an additional fee on these grounds.
PhilW1981
26th Nov 2012, 21:12
Or the simple solution, use the name on your passport when booking?
redsnail
26th Nov 2012, 21:56
Yeah, Phil, that works when the people booking your ticket is familiar with how the West do names.
However, not every person around the world is familiar with the Western naming structure.
deltahotel
26th Nov 2012, 22:15
I wouldn't be prepared to 'press to test' this one, but do come back here and let us know how you get on with a variety of airlines. One in particular!
Solar
26th Nov 2012, 23:56
The tickets are not booked by myself but by the company travel agent and they have been doing it for 30+ years.
Now it's a problem to some or another way to increase their revenue.
Point is if the P/P is there for ID and they (the airline) accept it when you pay the "fee" then they leave them selves open to accusations of bribery.
It's either acceptable or not.
Tableview
27th Nov 2012, 00:47
It's pretty much industry standard that the name in the PNR/ticket should match that on the passport. What you are normally known as is irrelevant.
So Horatius William Smith will not be accepted for travel as Billy Smith, but Horatius Smith might be ok.
Problems arise with names such as Jose Luis Miguel Antonio Camacho de Goncalves, whose name will have to be truncated as many systems are character limited. Some of the GDSs will accept up to 64 characters but ticketing systems and DCSs typically less. The system will truncate by lopping off the extra characters on the end, a human operator may make a more pragmatic decision and enter the above as Camacho de G/Jose Luis M A Mr
To some degree the problem is alleviated as many international destinations require APIS information to be sent through and the SSR DOCP element which is transmitted to the airline should be sent exactly as per the passport.
Oriental and Arabic names are a problem too. Let's not even go there!
Solar
27th Nov 2012, 02:07
Tableview
The name on the the ticket is correct but using my middle normally used name on the passport as opposed to the passort first name which as I said I seldom use.
The point the check in girl made was that it had to be the first name on the passport or it would not be accepted.
This begs the question why is the first name ok and not the middle name and if I were to be asked a fee then it shouldn't matter what name is used, She also mentioned as an example Sean can not be used on the ticket if the passport has John. That I can understand though as you probably know Sean is the Irish version of John so that could raise another debate in some cases.
But we are still back to the question how can they charge a fee and accept something that they say is incorrect in regards to your ID.
heidelberg
27th Nov 2012, 02:14
I am known as Seamus all my life.
But, when booking airline tickets I use my Passport name - James.
No problem - ever.
Use your Passport name and relax!
Have a nice day.
:ok:
Hartington
28th Nov 2012, 19:47
I'm another person known by my middle name. It's not just flights/tickets. Almost every organisation I know assume without asking that using my first name is correct. One of the few who asked was my dentist whose records now have my full name but they know I am known by my second name.
The one I find most irritating is banks. I have to keep reminding people to make out cheques to my first name or initial and at least a couple of times a year someone forgets and my bank won't process it. They used to; there was a way of recording alternative names that cheques could be made payable to. They claim it's all to do with money laundering.
In the end, I've learned to live with it. Any form of travel booking (trains, planes, hotels, cars, ferries etc etc) now go in the form first name/last name. If someone on the phone tries to use my first name I just tell them I don't use that name and after some embarresment and confusion on their part we end up with Mr Hartington.
Espada III
28th Nov 2012, 20:16
I have had two members of staff who used their middle name as their regular name. Tickets always booked using their first name to coincide with the passport.
We always knew if there was a cold call for them, as the person always asked for them by their first name, not their regular name, indicating information gleaned from official documents rather than information provided directly.
edi_local
29th Nov 2012, 07:13
Surely it is up to yourself to inform the booking department of your company that your real first name is the one they should be using.
You state you only use it on official documents, does an Airline ticket not count as an official document anymore?
My great Uncle was known by his middle name all his life but wouldn't put that as his first name on the ticket on one of his monthly trips to either the USA or Spain. The name simply wouldn't have matched his passport, which is what the airline specifically ask for. There are plenty of reasons why they want your first name on the ticket, so you should, rightly, be charged to change it if the airline demand that you do.
As with most fees or charges, it is there to act as a penalty for when you don't do something the airline specifically asked you to do. You can try and accuse an airline of bribery, but at the end of the day you just simply have to put your first name as your first name and nothing else!
Avionker
29th Nov 2012, 08:04
If the booking form asks for first name and surname, then it means first name and surname. Not middle name and surname. Not preferred name and surname. Not nickname and surname.
Jeez, how hard can it be?
I am known to one and all by a diminutive of my first name. Even my parents have never called me the full version of the name. However my passport, driving licence etc. all have my full name on them. My signature consists of my first name in full, both middle initials and my surname. That is my name, end of story.
Either change your name by deed poll and change all your official documentation or just accept that your middle name is just that, a middle name. It's not your first name no matter how much you prefer it.
Gibon2
29th Nov 2012, 11:56
It's pretty much industry standard that the name in the PNR/ticket should match that on the passport. What you are normally known as is irrelevant.
My great Uncle was known by his middle name all his life but wouldn't put that as his first name on the ticket on one of his monthly trips to either the USA or Spain. The name simply wouldn't have matched his passport, which is what the airline specifically ask for. There are plenty of reasons why they want your first name on the ticket, so you should, rightly, be charged to change it if the airline demand that you do.
This begs the question why is the first name ok and not the middle name
If it is a question of the name on the ticket matching the name on the passport, then either a match on the surname and one of two (or more) given names is enough, or it is not. There is no justification why the match should be on the given name that happens to be listed first in the passport. For someone named John David Smith, "David Smith" is exactly as much a match to the passport name as "John Smith" is. I don't believe there is any kind of legal distinction between "first" and "second" or "middle" names in most Western countries: there are just surnames/family names and given names. (The European and Australian passports I have seen are certainly like this - maybe US is different?)
An airline might be within its rights to demand an exact match to the passport name, in which case the ticket would have to be in the name of "John David Smith". But if they allow "John Smith", they have no basis to disallow "David Smith".
Avionker
29th Nov 2012, 14:12
I really do not see what is so hard about this.
If a booking form asks for your first name they mean the first name as listed on your passport. In the case given above the legal name is John David Smith. The first name is John, not David. That is the second name.
On what basis could the airline insist that you change the booking? I imagine on the basis that you did not fill in the booking form correctly.
Gibon2
29th Nov 2012, 14:39
I don't see what's hard about it either. The name either matches the passport or it doesn't. In this case, David Smith matches just as well as John Smith. Why should the airline care which is used? There is no greater assurance of correct identity by insisting on one or the other.
Maybe the booking form asked for first name, maybe it asked for given name. I'm pretty sure if you booked in French, it asked for "prenom", and in German, for "vorname". "David" in this case would be a perfectly correct response to both. Even in English, maybe the customer interprets "first" as "the part of my name that I write first, before my surname", or maybe as "the first of my given names". Again, why does it matter? What's so hard about it for the airline?
Tableview
29th Nov 2012, 14:55
http://blog.restonbible.org/wp-content/uploads/Mole-Hills-out-of-Mountains.jpg
Old 'Un
30th Nov 2012, 10:01
A well-known New Zealand entertainer must be running the airline folk ragged. His real name is Allen Stevenson, which is what is on his passport, which also contains the line: "also known as STEVE ALLEN". I wonder which one he books his flights under, as in NZ is is known as Steve Allen. (It goes back a bit, but he sang the theme song for the 1974 Commonwealth Games, "Join Together").
He's just one character I know whose 'known name' differs substantially from his 'legal' name. Another is so well known by a certain name that if he used his legal name, there's a strong possibility that Customs would pull him aside fearing a fake passport.
I guess we have to follow the rules set by the owners/operators of the service, but they sometimes don't make it easy on themselves. I have seen instances where the request is "Surname?", "First nameS?". As already posted above, OK if you're dealing with your own native naming system, but real messy if you're not.
"If in doubt, ask" maybe?
Le Vieux
If governments ever begin to use APIS information, other than to check your name as given against their "black hat" name data base, I can see even less flexibility in matching the name to the passport.
It is insane to stand in queues to give immigration the same information you gave them (or could give them) on-line. Approval to enter should be given based on APIS and all they should be checking is that it is your passport you are holding. If they don't want you, you shouldn't be allowed on the plane.
Tableview
30th Nov 2012, 10:53
In case anyone is wondering what the APIS information is and how it gets transmitted to the airline :
SSR DOCS BA HK1 P/GBR/1234567890/GBR/01JAN76/M/01JAN20/SMITH/PETER JOHN
SSR = code for a service request
DOCS = primary travel document info, one of the APIS types (also DOCO DOCA DOCV DOCP)
P = document type
GBR = issuing country code
GBR = passport
1234567890 = document number
GBR = passenger nationality
01JAN76 = date of birth
M = sex
01JAN20 = document expiry
full names as per document
Some airlines will refuse transportation, and are entitled to do so, unless there is a full match across :
PNR
ETKT
Travel document
APIS field
Just consider this nonsense. A woman has a Russian passport. Then gets married to a UK citizen and (eventually) gets a UK passport with UK married name. Then, books on BA from UK to Russia. But in what name ?
If uses UK name then gets stopped at Heathrow because no visa in UK passport to enter Russia. Visas are not issued to anyone already a citizen of the country. Shows Russian passport as well but told this is in different name.
If uses Russian (maiden) name then fine to travel outward on Russian passport. But when returning from Russia, gets stopped at airport because no visa in Russian passport to enter Britain. Shows UK passport but told this is in different name.
No facility on a return ticket to use different names in each direction. The ideal solution would be for reservations to have an "alternate name" facility. But IATA/ICAO have never thought of this.
I do hope somebody can tell me the official answer to this combination, because I have asked BA several times and never had any sensible answer to it.
Tableview
30th Nov 2012, 11:29
WHBM : Thank you for raising this interesting conundrum.
I don't think there is an 'official' solution. If there is, I might be able to dig and find it for you amongst IATA regulations.
There is a facility which some airline ticketing systems have, allowing you to issue a ticket where a PNR does not exist, or to issue a ticket overriding the name on the PNR. This would be done routinely for standby tickets (staff) where sometimes no PNR exists, and in other situations for example where a FIM (flight interruption manifest) has been issued where a passenger journey has been interrupted. Also where a person is travelling on a passport in a former name but ticketed on a current name.
Airlines are faced with a number of such situations, for example when reservations are made for an expected and as yet unnamed child, or an adopted child.
There is a facility to change names in the systems, but again, this is problematic for many reasons, particularly when several airlines are involved.
I'm afraid you've opened a hornets' next here.
I'm afraid you've opened a hornets' next here.
Ah yes. Especially, as some will be aware, the Russian lady in question is Mrs WHBM :)
We have found a large number of people who enter a country with a different passport to that which they booked/checked in with. It is an extensive situation. Of course, in the days before the "conformance paranoia" set in this never really mattered.
darkroomsource
30th Nov 2012, 14:57
Just consider this nonsense. A woman has a Russian passport. Then gets married to a UK citizen and (eventually) gets a UK passport with UK married name. Then, books on BA from UK to Russia. But in what name ?
If uses UK name then gets stopped at Heathrow because no visa in UK passport to enter Russia. Visas are not issued to anyone already a citizen of the country. Shows Russian passport as well but told this is in different name.
If uses Russian (maiden) name then fine to travel outward on Russian passport. But when returning from Russia, gets stopped at airport because no visa in Russian passport to enter Britain. Shows UK passport but told this is in different name.
No facility on a return ticket to use different names in each direction. The ideal solution would be for reservations to have an "alternate name" facility. But IATA/ICAO have never thought of this.
I do hope somebody can tell me the official answer to this combination, because I have asked BA several times and never had any sensible answer to it.
From what I read just recently (my wife is in a similar situation), she must show a marriage certificate to dispel confusion.
aspinwing
30th Nov 2012, 20:59
Or have travel and other documents changed to reflect your reality. I did. I am a middle 'namer'. Ask anyone in my family for A. and they will asume you mean my cousin.
It took a bit of doing because it is a daisy chain. You have to get one document changed then the others will accept that in issuing a renewed document.:ugh:
Now I have passport, driver's licence, health care card, credit cards, etc. all showing the same info.
A. BCDEF HIJKLMNOP
To use some sites - Expedia; etc. I had yo use A.BCDEF HIJKLMNOP
so all "personalized" communications now come addressed to A.BCDEF
In several years, I have only had one immigration officer (US) tell me that I should have my passport show my first given name.
edi_local
30th Nov 2012, 21:07
The Russian lady should probably just update both passports so they are in her married name. That's not a big job and the cost would surely out weigh the years of hassle she would face if she's a frequent traveler.
..just update both passports ...... That's not a big job .
I take it you're not Russian ........
Tableview
1st Dec 2012, 07:36
I take it you're not Russian ........
... or South African!
Dee747
3rd Dec 2012, 11:52
I book all student and staff travel for the FE College I work for, and NEVER make any flight bookings without either a passport scan or driving licence scan (if an internal UK flight).
All bookings are then made using all available full names as on the ID. It is not my job to second guess what anyone's full, preferred or known name is, and this policy has never produced any errors or problems with IDs when flying to any airport, either in the UK, across Europe or worldwide.
Once all passengers understand the consequences if they don't provide a scan, then there are no problems. No scan = no booking = no travel. Simples ....... :ok:
strake
3rd Dec 2012, 16:00
WHBM
My wife is Russian born but now a British citizen for some years with a UK passport. She also has a Russian passport in her married name and as far as I recall, there was no difficulty in getting it.
She travels regularly to Russia with our daughter (also dual), out on Russian and back on UK.
However, me trying to get a sensible visa for visiting Russia is a completely different story...
Gulfstreamaviator
3rd Dec 2012, 16:08
I have two family names and two give names....... xxx. xxxx. XXXXXX-XXXXXXXXXX, and my tickets are booked by my company, that has a copy of my passport.
Most times my ticket is issued to xxx.xxxx.
I have told them many times.
Now it is issued to xxx.XXXXXX.
Several trips to USA using my given names not family names.
So far no problem, but one day.
glf
WHBM
My wife is Russian born but now a British citizen for some years with a UK passport. She also has a Russian passport in her married name and as far as I recall, there was no difficulty in getting it.
She travels regularly to Russia with our daughter (also dual), out on Russian and back on UK.
Strake
The rules seem to change every year (sometimes more than once). Currently there is a lead time of about 3 months at an overseas consulate to do this.
The real difficulty, as you are doubtless aware, is in all the things in Russia that are tied to your Internal Passport, by name (eg property, bank accounts, legal documents) which have all got to be changed from afar. That is a huge effort just to appease the air carriers who can't understand people with two names, one in each passport, which is very common.
Hartington
3rd Dec 2012, 21:43
I think it's worth pointing out that this requirement to use first name last name originated with governments, not the airlines. I have a suspicion the first government to implement the requirement was Saudi Arabia. It only became noticable after 9/11 when the USA tightened their requirements.
The airlines are not completely innocent but they didn't start it all. What they have done is take a pragmatic decision to apply a standard that seems to be being adopted by Goverments worldwide.
Mind you, I sometimes wonder how thorough some of the checks are. My wifes birthdate has single digit day and month and I entered it the "wrong way" (e.g. m/d not d/m) for one country with no issues on multiple border crossings.
The airlines are also to blame with their non-transferability rules. Name match passport/official ID has always been required for international travel, but with more flexibility interpreting what a match was.
The airlines that permit name changes, mostly LCCs, make money for doing so and have a financial incentive to apply a very strict policy.
Hartington
4th Dec 2012, 21:15
ExxB. It is NOT true that there has ALWAYS been a requirement for ticket and reservation and passport names to match. As I've said, I am commonly know by my 2nd name. There was a time when a ticket issued in the name "Second Hartington" was fine.
An extreme example was an ex employer. He ran a number of companies including the travel agency I worked for. He had been commuting back and forth to Paris for several months with various members of staff from his other companies, sometimes by car and other times by air, and one day there were five of them all trying to get back to London. Over the weeks several people had flown out and returned by car so he had several tickets in various names in his pocket. He simply gave each person a ticket and, if memory serves, the only one that matched the person was his own. They all got home with no problem at all.
Mind you, that was all over 30 years ago!
Over the weeks several people had flown out and returned by car so he had several tickets in various names in his pocket. He simply gave each person a ticket and, if memory serves, the only one that matched the person was his own. They all got home with no problem at all.
This simplistic description fails to point out that those return halves of tickets had been PAID FOR. Why shouldn't seats/ticket which have been paid for be used ?
It is as if I book and prepay for theatre tickets as Sandy Smith, and when I get there they say "oh, your credit card says MR A SMITH, you will have to pay again to sit in those seats". Which would be an obvious and outright fraud.
In 1999 I traveled from EU to USA and back on a ticket with wrong first name. Nobody even asked about it :eek:
Hartington, we are saying the same thing. The name I use is a diminutive of my second name. I.e. I'm known as Sec even though my name in my passport is Primary Secoundous ExXB.
For years I travelled on tickets issued to Sec ExXB, no issues. But had I tried to travel on a ticket for Tertiary ExXB, or for Sec EzZB I'd be out of luck. The requirement for a match was there but loosely interpreted.
The rules were a lot looser for AD and ID tickets, which might explain your ex-employer. I had a briefcase full of OAL passes that I would use some, or all of, as needs required. No sequential or complete use rules for these tickets. They were free after all. I even used a few after they expired.
This simplistic description fails to point out that those return halves of tickets had been PAID FOR. Why shouldn't seats/ticket which have been paid for be used ?
It is as if I book and prepay for theatre tickets as Sandy Smith, and when I get there they say "oh, your credit card says MR A SMITH, you will have to pay again to sit in those seats". Which would be an obvious and outright fraud.
It is Governments that require the full name as shown on the passport.
There is also a security issue. The airline, and receiving/transit government wants to know who the passengers are. They have blacklists which they don't want circumvented, probably for good reason. Sandy Smith might be OK, but MR A SMITH could be a black hat.
gusting_45
5th Dec 2012, 10:16
You can also have your passport amended to reflect your name as that by which you are normally known.
All it requires is that you contact your passport issuer and apply to have it changed. A stamp will entered in your passport to state that you are registered as Joseph Alfred Bloggs but your passport will describe you as Alfred Bloggs. Simples.
You can then have yourself legally described as you are normally known on all documents, bank accounts, voter registers etc etc.
I did it over 25 years ago, it makes life much simpler.
Good luck.
GroundedSLF
6th Dec 2012, 16:04
Sorry - but airlines DID tighten up on name rules about 10 years ago.
Mainly due to some unscupulous (but some might say ingenious) travel companies who would book seats in dummy names for popluar flights, well in advance at the cheapest fares (think UK - Florida out 21 Dec back 2 jan).
They pay £300 per seat, then sit on these till flights are fuller/only available in high price seats, and then sell them at £800 and simply changed the name, then issued the ticket...
This is also why airlines massivly tightened up on restricted fare ticketing policies...
Tableview
6th Dec 2012, 18:21
The main offenders in that regard were agencies selling Haj and Umraa tours. They'd block book 100 Ali Husains and then nearer the time do name changes. That is why name changes are inhibited or subject to rules.
... And affinity groups out of Vancouver to Hong Kong. The group desk hated these as they alone could make name changes.