Millionaire helicopter pilots to ferry emergency services... [Archive]

SilsoeSid

25th Nov 2012, 15:10

In case you missed the part at the end of the free article;
Such a group would be reminiscent of 601 Squadron Royal Auxiliary Air Force.
Known as 'The Millionaires'..

I wonder where the writer of the article gleaned that information from...Mr Paxton by any chance?

No. 601 Squadron RAF - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No._601_Squadron_RAF)

601 Squadron was formed at RAF Northolt on 14 October 1925 when a group of wealthy aristocratic young men, all of whom were amateur aviators, decided to form themselves into a Reserve Squadron of the RAF after a meeting in White's Club, London. The original officers were picked by the first commanding officer, Lord Edward Grosvenor, youngest son of Hugh Grosvenor, 1st Duke of Westminster. Grosvenor tested potential recruits by plying them with alcohol to see if they would behave inappropriately. Grosvenor wanted officers "of sufficient presence not to be overawed by him and of sufficient means not to be excluded from his favourite pastimes, eating, drinking and Whites". The Squadron was initially known as "the millionaires squadron", a nametag gained because of a reputation for filling their ranks with the very 'well-heeled'. Most of these affluent young pilots had little regard for the rigid discipline of the regular service; they lined their uniform tunics with bright red silk and wore blue ties rather than the regulation black. They played polo on brand-new Brough Superior motor cycles, drove fast sports cars (the squadron car park was said to resemble a Concours d'Elegance) and most of the pilots owned their own private aircraft. However, the war quickly took its toll on the pre-war personnel and as replacements were drafted in from all walks of life and all parts of the Commonwealth to cover casualties and promotions, the Squadron became as cosmopolitan as any other.

Perhaps a breathalyser, for use when the pager goes off, will be standard issue :ugh:

Sir Niall Dementia

25th Nov 2012, 15:23

Isn't Mr Paxton the same chap who "volunteered" to fly Dame Shirley Bassey to Battersea from a pop festival and had it all end close to tears in a school playground?

Most multi-millionaire PPL/H holders I've met (and there's been a few over the years) are not that good as pilots. They rarely plan what they're doing properly. There seems to be an attitude amongst them of "succesful in one area of my life, ergo I can succeed in any area." Rules are for others. And little realisation until too late that few things will let the wind out of your ego slightly faster than it leaves your lungs for the last time than a helicopter flown without respect and forethought.

Tin hat on for in-coming

SilsoeSid

25th Nov 2012, 15:33

Bored with the same old commute? Meet the businessman who flies to work in his very own Bond-style jet pack | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2208711/Bored-old-commute-Meet-businessman-flies-work-Bond-style-jet-pack.html)

Millionaire water ski champion Jeremy Paxton wins appeal in £30,000 legal battle to keep helipad in his garden | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2233316/Millionaire-water-ski-champion-Jeremy-Paxton-wins-appeal-30-000-legal-battle-helipad-garden.html)

Landmark Houses - Lower Mill Estate (http://www.lmearchitecture.com/sponsor.htm)
Jeremy Paxton is 48 years of age and by profession (but not occupation) a commercial pilot.

The day Shirley Bassey popped in to use the loo | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-464155/The-day-Shirley-Bassey-popped-use-loo.html)

Her pilot, property magnate Jeremy Paxton, had been heading for Battersea heliport, but while flying over Surrey low cloud and torrential rain made the visibility too poor for them to continue.

"I thought he was going to land on the roof, you could tell he was having trouble," said Mrs Yeomans, whose family had earlier watched Dame Shirley's Glastonbury performance on TV.
After bringing the helicopter to rest Mr Paxton got out to ask where he was.

The qualified commercial pilot said: "The trip down was fine but it was obvious that the weather was getting worse. He added: "There was not one point where I felt remotely concerned. Safety is paramount when flying and I am always aware of what impact the weather may have.

Anybody that knows Mr Paxton care to tell him the story of Mark Weir!

[email protected]

25th Nov 2012, 15:33

Good intentions I'm sure but this should never have left the pub. . A critical discussion on the practical implementation (or not) will probably return the idea to a more plausible domain - the comics

Lateral thinking is great but this would be madness on many levels.

SilsoeSid

25th Nov 2012, 15:56

The most worrying thing for me;
Mr Paxton, "There was not one point where I felt remotely concerned".

Dame Shirleys version of events;

Dame Shirley Bassey - "You could not see anything, just white ahead"

Cheese Slices
First, the idea!
Second, the 'crew'.
Third, the ac type for role.
Fourth, charity abseil for Royal Marines.
Fifth, dispute with authority.
Sixth, decision process in changing situations.
Seventh, pressonitis.
Eighth, money.
Etc

SilsoeSid

25th Nov 2012, 16:07

Another media version of events;
DAME SHIRLEY IN COPTER TERROR (http://www.mirror.co.uk/3am/celebrity-news/dame-shirley-in-copter-terror-485709)

The pilot had to make an emergency landing.

A crowd watched in horror as the helicopter swooped low over homes.
It touched down at 8pm amid howling winds and rain in the grounds of Collingwood College in Camberley, Surrey.

The shaken pilot emerged to ask locals: "Where am I?"
He apologised for scaring them before admitting: "That was terrifying. I was losing power and the mist was so thick I couldn't see where I was going. I've got a special passenger. We have had an almighty let off. Thank God."

It was not a night to be airborne because the weather was foul. The mist had closed in so it was hard to see further than a few yards. My husband Thomas and I watched in horror as the helicopter touched the tops of trees in our garden. "It was clear the pilot was struggling to control the machine. Thankfully it made a very bumpy landing in the grounds of the college. The pilot was first out and looked ashen. He saw us watching through the college gates and came over to ask, 'Where am I?' He just seemed relieved to be alive.

"He was a hero really for making a safe landing in atrocious conditions.

"You could tell Dame Shirley had been through a terrible ordeal but she maintained her dignity. She smiled bravely at us and asked for a toilet and cup of tea, in that order. After she recovered her poise she was simply wonderful."

Ninth, previous events.

Helinut

25th Nov 2012, 16:10

It would be a brave/foolhardy emergency services employer to require their staff to fly in a private helicopter doing what they say they are going to do. I don't think the employer's employer liability insurance underwriter would be impressed, which would leave the employer exposed.

Flight insurance coverage would also be interesting: I hope Mr Paxton et al tell their insurers. Otherwise, the aircraft insurer will walk away as sure as eggs is eggs.

Lots of observer police officers have difficulty getting life insurance that covers
their exposure in ASU aircraft. (From what I have heard, many just ignore it and keep their fingers crossed). However, the general presumption is that "normal insurance excludes any flying other than scheduled flights".

Has all the hallmarks of a "car crash", but I am not sure the CAA would have much leverage: which bit of the ANO would be breached?

Sir Korsky

25th Nov 2012, 16:21

Paul McCartney in copter terror, Shirly Bassey in copter terror, what's the trivia connection guys??

Al-bert

25th Nov 2012, 16:42

Oh dear, white gloves with a black flying suit! Clearly just a rich oik :=

JTobias

25th Nov 2012, 17:40

Hey Guys

Firstly I'm not saying whether I agree, or dis-agree, with Jeremy Paxton's offer or not, but

1) I think he is a CPL (H) anyway
2) Are we saying that PPL's are not as capable as CPL's here ?
3) Because he may (or may not) be wealthy, that he's not a capable pilot ?

Joel :ok:

ShyTorque

25th Nov 2012, 17:43

And in the red corner........

:rolleyes:

Thomas coupling

25th Nov 2012, 17:49

Haven't giggled so much in a while.

Jp: A pigment of his own constipation....methinks:ugh:

This is where the CAA should show their true colours?

I wouldn't waste any more time on this to be honest.......................:mad:

Bravo73

25th Nov 2012, 17:52

From the second Helicopter Life article:

The ship has wire strike kit, night scanner, full Garmin IFR avionics fit, MP3 player, ELT, Aux tank, mist eliminator, Facet oil filter, Connelly hide interior by Farnborough aircraft interiors and cruises at 135 knots....Uh oh. :uhoh:

PS When they say 'ship', I think they mean 'helicopter'.

Anthony Supplebottom

25th Nov 2012, 18:04

Tobias, I'm still new here and only getting to know the members but i've read through enough of your posts to know that you come across as one of the more level-headed owners on this forum , although that shouldn't go to your head. I don't know if i can say the same about Paxton because I don't know him but my guess is that he may lean towards the gung-ho brigade and his fl/right with Shirley Bassey supports that.

As I said earlier, we are probably dealing with a frustrated pro-pilot (hence the gear) who knows he hasn't got the time to sign-up and join a HEMS unit or whatever and be a full-time professional so its like "why don't I just create something I can respond to and everyone can think its charity on my part!"

He may be god's gift to the piloting world but its about doing things properly and this approach as well intentioned as it might be doesn't come across as being top drawer.

Do the TA allow part-time pilots? Can't he go off and do that once a month and fly one of their gazelles or even offer his black heli to them!

md 600 driver

25th Nov 2012, 18:12

This thread should last for ages bogey and crab will be here soon
What's the betting bogey thinks its against the rules !!!! Lol

Joel

Yes to all three LOL

I will get my coat
Steve

JTobias

25th Nov 2012, 20:09

Anthony - My name is Joel (my surname is Tobias!) - no offence taken. Just thought I should properly introduce myself. Thanks for yoiur kind words too. I have met Jeremy and he is 'notorious/infamous' and probably does fit into the slightly gung - ho category.

MD 600 - you're not entirely serious are you? You must accept that there are probably many capable PPL's out there who have the same experience as a CPL - or better. There are also many PPL's who could easily achieve the CPL but who chose not to because there is little benefit to them.

In fact, I have a very good friend who immediately went from PPL (H) to CPL (H) and he has less than 250 hours in total. My insurance don't care or take into consideration that he is a CPL because they simply looked at his overall flying experience, which they consider is not as sufficient as the other PPL's names on my policy.

In terms of the wealthy bit, are you generalising, being specific to Jeremy or just trying to provoke a reaction ? You can't be generalising !!!!

Joel :ok:

md 600 driver

25th Nov 2012, 21:04

Joel

Only joking lol

JTobias

25th Nov 2012, 21:12

MD 600,

Phew !!!!

Joel :ok:

Rigga

25th Nov 2012, 21:21

The Times quotation said: "Paxton, 52, has agreed to be on call with his helicopter to fly firefighters to serious incidents."

And just what will they carry and actually be able to do when he gets them there?

hillberg

25th Nov 2012, 21:41

Wait till the mud:confused:, blood:eek: & Gorp:yuk: soil the inners of his toy:},Slam the doors,:= Bash the floors:rolleyes: & so much more.:D

SilsoeSid

25th Nov 2012, 22:14

I think I've missed the part that mentioned where the service will be based to make it so effective and by what means any of the country's emergency services will be able contact them at any time of the day/night.

Oh, and;

http://www.acornsys.com/Portals/76901/images/Elephant-in-room.jpg

Thomas coupling

25th Nov 2012, 22:53

Millionaire water ski champion Jeremy Paxton wins appeal in £30,000 legal battle to keep helipad in his garden | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2233316/Millionaire-water-ski-champion-Jeremy-Paxton-wins-appeal-30-000-legal-battle-helipad-garden.html)

[email protected]

26th Nov 2012, 06:32

Mr Paxton insisted his immediate neighbours do not have a problem with the helicopter.
He said he does not fly it early in the morning or late at night and only uses around half of the permitted take-offs and landings. so as long as the fire and rescue service don't need him when it is inconvenient that will be OK then:)

As Hillberg alluded to - I can't wait to see what burly firemen and kit will do to his Connelly hide interior;)

It's OK though, he is fully equipped for emergency flying - he has an MP3 player for Ride of the Valkyries for when he appears heroically over the horizon to save everyone from death and destruction:ugh:

Mr Paxton - don't be such a prat - enjoy your wealth and your helicopter but keep out of the way where emergency services are concerned as you will be a liability and a danger not only to yourself but the public as well.

Hughes500

26th Nov 2012, 07:17

Who on this site actually knows the said gentlemen or have flown with him ?
Having done his last couple of LPC check rides he has a far higher ability than more of the 50% of CPL's I have tested recently.
Crab most people on this site respect your views, I certainly did until you call someone a prat, meet them first, find out what he is about then criticise by all means. Always believe everything you read in the press ?
As to those who rake over The Shriley Bassey thing, one he knows her and two he landed rather than press on and had a cfit, so shows something about his captaincy then !
What this really shows is how beneficial a resource a helicopter actually is but how they are not actually used for what they should be. Bit like air ambulances now, getting over equipped and too expensive for doing the job combined with being deployed where they dont need to be. Would love to know why all air ambulances now need to be IFR, how many hospitals have an instrument approach ? Sorry thread creep i know

Anthony Supplebottom

26th Nov 2012, 07:36

Hughes500- great to see your support for your customer, commendable:D

Mr Paxton - don't be such a prat - enjoy your wealth and your helicopter but keep out of the way where emergency services are concerned as you will be a liability and a danger not only to yourself but the public as well.

Probably the kindest comment on here so far. :ok:

As to those who rake over The Shriley Bassey thing, one he knows her and two he landed rather than press on and had a cfit, so shows something about his captaincy then !

Yes I do apologise about my previous comments. I now realise that Paxman/ton knowing the dame places this incident in a totally different light.

Additionally I unreservedly apologise for my comments suggesting that his judgement should never have been called into question because, after all, he did land and, now I see, it, he heroically saved the day.

I wish I had seen this in the beginning, he knew dame Shirley (don't call me Shirley) that makes all the difference and , , he landed his blackbird, why oh why didn;t I see this before!

Whatalotacrap!!!

The bleedin fool should probably never have left the ground or turned back seconds after take off (his ego probably wouldn't allow for that) but instead he put poor Shirley's (stop calling me Shirley) life in mortal danger (that's the real truth for those interested in it).

As I said earlier, Paxo could be god's gift to the piloting world but his actions are not those of a professional.

Hughes500, small question? Have you been to Paxo's home helipad? Is there ample room for him to conduct his daily checks on the tail section? Is he really the most professional pilot you've met in your career?

Another question (to others) is it not possible to do a GPS approach to a hospital pad?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0A5t5_O8hdA

.

SilsoeSid

26th Nov 2012, 09:14

As to those who rake over The Shriley Bassey thing, one he knows her and two he landed rather than press on and had a cfit, so shows something about his captaincy then !

Sounded to me as though he did press on, especially considering Dame Shirley who was actually on the aircraft at the time said "you could not see anything, just white ahead." ...or does Mr Paxton, who in one report said that at no point did he feel remotely concerned, have Superman's super vision to go with his Thunderbirds business plan.

Hughesey, please tell us what you think his setups weather limitations are likely to be and what will be the various protocols for circumstances such as motorway landings?

DOUBLE BOGEY

26th Nov 2012, 09:23

Supplebuttucks - I think you are wrong on all accounts and many levels.

If a pilot chooses to land rather than press on - and in doing so lives to fly another day in his serviceable helicopter HE SHOULD BE COMMENDED. To send any other message could cause someone else to press on - in fear of the kind of mindless drivel you spout in their direction.

As far as Mr Paxtons flightsuit and helmet are concerned - I like it!! Why not shake up the suits with a left field offer of help like this. He might be a bit naive when viewed from the lofty heights of us "Commercial" pilots but good luck to him. At least he is trying to help, is a businessman and actually LIKES helicopters. I like him a lot.....already.

But there again I like Shirley Bassey also and he "Saved" her so maybe I am bias!!

SilsoeSid

26th Nov 2012, 09:29

Hughes500

Who on this site actually knows the said gentlemen or have flown with him ?
Having done his last couple of LPC check rides he has a far higher ability than more of the 50% of CPL's I have tested recently.

May I remind you Hughsey of a similar remark taken from the AAIB report into the Cumbria incident;
The examiner stated that he had conducted a number of proficiency checks with the pilot in recent years and considered him to be of above average flying ability, adding that his skill level was similar to that of a British military helicopter pilot of two or three years operational experience.

Is that cheese slice number 10 by any chance?

chopjock

26th Nov 2012, 09:54

Silsoe
Sounded to me as though he did press on, especially considering Dame Shirley who was actually on the aircraft at the time said "you could not see anything, just white ahead." ...or does Mr Paxton, who in one report said that at no point did he feel remotely concerned, have Superman's super vision to go with his Thunderbirds business plan.

Just because pax in back can not see much out the front, does not mean the pilot in front can only see the same. Pilot can obviously see in front and below to keep the surface in sight. Or did you not think that was the case?

SilsoeSid

26th Nov 2012, 09:54

The Harrogate Incident;

The examiner reported it was conducted in good weather conditions with only a light wind and that he was impressed by the standard of the pilot. He passed the pilot on all elements of the test, assessing him as well above average ability. The examiner stated that the pilot had, however, allowed the aircraft to weathercock during a spot turn, requiring him to repeat the exercise. The pilot had, however, been able to control the weathercocking without intervention and had repeated the exercise to a satisfactorary standard. The examiner stated that the pilot was ‘level headed and capable’ and he considered that he had flown to the same standard expected of a pilot undergoing a commercial Skills Test.
http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cfm?file=/Aerospatiale%20Westland%20SA%20341G%20Gazelle,%20YU-HEW%2011-09.pdf

I hope this puts that side of the discussion to rest.

keepin it in trim

26th Nov 2012, 09:54

Hughes 500, You are quite right, in all the years I did Sar/hems I never came across a hospital with an instrument approach... However, I did come across a lot of airfields with instrument approaches that I could either land at, or break out to visual and then continue to the nearby hospital, instead of landing in a field in the middle of nowhere, nowhere near a hospital, with a patient on board.

Additionally, I personally find it an awful lot less stressful to be above msa, in an IFR equipped machine, with everything plugged in, than to be working very hard at low level in poor weather, single pilot, to fly, nav, and communicate.

As regards the kit in air ambulances, why should a patient expect a lower level of equipment or care in a helicopter than a road ambulance. Now I appreciate in the more built up parts of our country a patient might only be on board for 10-15 minutes, where I live (and workd in that environment), 45 minutes or more would not be unusual, and given the weather we experience, the IFR part regularly made the difference between being able to get the job done or not. I appreciate that the authority does not make it easy to get an IR and the capability does cost, but it is useful, and honestly, in poor weather it is the easiest way of getting from a to b.

SilsoeSid

26th Nov 2012, 10:00

Chopjock;
Just because pax in back can not see much out the front, does not mean the pilot in front can only see the same. Pilot can obviously see in front and below to keep the surface in sight. Or did you not think that was the case?

Ok, so what about those other comments about the weather that night?;

It was not a night to be airborne because the weather was foul. The mist had closed in so it was hard to see further than a few yards. My husband Thomas and I watched in horror as the helicopter touched the tops of trees in our garden. "It was clear the pilot was struggling to control the machine. Thankfully it made a very bumpy landing in the grounds of the college. The pilot was first out and looked ashen. He saw us watching through the college gates and came over to ask, 'Where am I?' He just seemed relieved to be alive.

chopjock

26th Nov 2012, 10:08

Silso,
Do you believe everything you read in the press?
Pax in back said "just white ahead" well obviously if you believe that then it wasn't dark yet either!
A precautionary landing in bad wx was the right thing to do. You expect the press to sensationalize it.

Agaricus bisporus

26th Nov 2012, 10:57

Amongst all the sound and fury here I sense a few important points are being missed.

This is never going to happen without the CAA approving it.
This is never going to happen without the dead hand of the trumpton's elf 'n safety department picking it to pieces.

Those two alone should make sure it is run properly or it just won't happen. And by the time they've found you actually need an AOC and all the rest for this to fly I think it will just wither and die.

How could you fit firemen in their bulky kit into the back of a H500? It's the least suitable machine imaginable.

It doesn't smell right - there's more than a whiff of Walt in all this. The guy may well have a CPL but if he doesn't have the experience to go with it that isn't going to help him, is it?
The mere fact he's even suggesting doing this with a single indicates to me that he doesn't understand what he's getting into.

"Private helicopter" What a daft expression. What's a public helicopter? Military or other government owned ones I suppose. aah!, the press....

Thomas coupling

26th Nov 2012, 11:05

Hughes 500: what beautiful innocence you possess. Long may it last. We need more people like you to counter those of us who see only doom and destruction if this "prat" goes anywhere near using a helicopter in anger.

please be advised, an LPC is like an MOT - it's good for the 40 minutes you fly it. Once you leave the building - he's back to his antics again - maybe you need a little more street wisdom eh?

And to cap it all - heeeeeerrrrrrrre's CHOP JOCK and thus the end of any normal diatribe about anything to do with helicopters.

Plonkers unite.:eek:

Bisporus: well said.

Savoia

26th Nov 2012, 11:26

I must say that threads such as these (even if slightly juvenile) do add enormous entertainment value to PPRuNe!

How could you fit firemen in their bulky kit into the back of a H500?

If this chap was to seriously consider carting about fully equipped fire fighters I do feel he will find the 500 a bit of a squeeze. However, in the US they have long since recognised that the 500's interior accommodation is, well, limited and have for many years now resorted to carrying passengers externally (seriously). In fact the 500 probably has more external 'passenger' carrying configurations that most other types!

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-YgUYzt6HNLA/ULNcUe6A1kI/AAAAAAAAK8Q/JwrFeiHVCxM/s584/Fire+500.jpg

Not however the most comfortable way to travel.

SilsoeSid

26th Nov 2012, 11:28

8pm on 25 June, of course it won't be dark :ugh:

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g11/silsoesid/image.jpg

Of course a precautionary landing is the best thing to do, but take a look at the map and with the comment...

"He made hasty plans to divert to the exclusive Pennyhill Park Hotel in Bagshot. But as the weather worsened, he had to land at Collingwood Sixth Form College in nearby Camberley."

...in mind, ask yourself, 'Just how bad was it that he couldn't make the final 200 metres to the Hotel?"
I would suggest that he was following the M3, after passing a mile or 2 to the south of Blackbushe just a few minutes earlier, and then came upon the 200ft pylon line that he couldn't get over!!!!
Not pressonitis someone said earlier :eek:

The fleet of wealthy volunteers hopes to save lives by ferrying specialist crews to the scene of road traffic accidents, stranded flood victims and trapped climbers.

Absolute madness for this to go ahead and if it does, I cant say it loud enough...
...ACCIDENT WAITING TO HAPPEN !

misterbonkers

26th Nov 2012, 11:55

We have to commend that he decided to land.

If the weather was as bad as what's is being said then *maybe* he shouldn't have set off in the first place but the fact is he did and all ended ok. BUT hopefully he has reflected and learned from the experience.

We're all surprised and naturally concerned about this idea of Mr Paxton being implemented. Having a fleet of helicopters available for massive disasters is not a bad idea (I'm going to liken it to a Dunkirk style scenario) but for everyday use this sort of thing should be left to the professionals.

I'm not saying Mr Paxton isn't capable of doing such work but the manner in which all this is being presented and other related history paints a picture of an Egotistical individual. I'm not saying that is how he is, I'm saying that's the impression I get from the published things that I've read about him. Egotism is present in most of us pilots but at differing levels. A high level of Egotism is not a good thing in aviation.

H500 - my main concern is that this all smacks of a Mark Weir scenario and I would truly hate it that yet another fellow pilot goes down the same lines as this. I'm sure many other PPRUNErs share this sentiment hence all the posting on this matter. Perhaps, given you have flown with Mr Paxton, you could speak to him privately about his ideas, weather limits, potential pitfalls etc with the view to ensuring his attitude is correct towards all this; particularly when getting involved with the Emergency Services - he might not like what he hears but hopefully it may make him think about things that matter and, should it go ahead, make the operation SAFER.

Safety from discussion is never a bad thing.

JTobias

26th Nov 2012, 12:07

Guys,

As Agaricus has previously said, I don't think that it's likely to happen. Certainly not in an organised fashion.

If the sh*t hits the fan and there is some major catastrophic incident which requires the transportation of equipment and personell then it's possible that all hands will be on deck and every available resource might be employed to do whatever it takes to provide assistance.

What that incident might be, well , who knows? But I think if it were to happen, then it would become reasonably apparent, and the rule book would be going out the window.

On a separate, but similiar note, how would everyone have felt if Mr Paxton had offered (indeed he may have done) to assist in the search for April Jones (the missing girl in Wales). Assuming he conducted his search in VFR conditions and with a 'navigator' on board, would that have been acceptable ?

Joel :ok:

Flaxton Flyer

26th Nov 2012, 12:18

This is a little bit similar to the scheme in the U.S. where private owners help out with their helicopters for lost person searches etc.

However, whilst over the pond you would likely get Harrison Ford or John Travolta coming to your rescue, the poor Brits will be having Noel Edmonds, Doctor Fox and the Hamster rocking up.

Or, just when you thought your day couldn't get any worse...Katie Price.

misterbonkers

26th Nov 2012, 12:36

... Ginger Spice with Jay Kay singing through the SkyShout fitted especially for the mission!

Chris Evans could cover the radio for everyone and Sir David Jason could sort out all the plonkers!

JT - he could help with the search but we would need to insure the search was done correctly - would a thermal camera be used, what search pattern would be adopted AND, typical of today's society; who would be responsible should they have missed something crucial?

Supplementary organised searching in appropriate weather conditions = GREAT IDEA. LoneRanger with a 'can do anything' attitude = BAD IDEA

Anthony Supplebottom

26th Nov 2012, 12:37

On a separate, but similiar note, how would everyone have felt if Mr Paxton had offered (indeed he may have done) to assist in the search for April Jones (the missing girl in Wales). Assuming he conducted his search in VFR conditions and with a 'navigator' on board, would that have been acceptable ?

Yes it would have been acceptable (had he collected the observer/s from a suitable location and remained over non built up areas) but this is a totally different kettle of fish to landing here there and everywhere, especially roads as well as potential multiple confined area take offs and landings with obstructions, lugging personnel and equipment about in support of fires.

Having said that, without a IR camera it would probably have been a waste of time so, still better to keep it with the pro's.

206 jock

26th Nov 2012, 12:47

Not wishing to make a point either way, but a few years ago you could fly into the Royal International Air Tattoo.

Part of the landing brief was given over to specifics regarding helicopters and there was a section covering the obligations of all helicopters and their pilots present to make themselves available in the event of a major incident. It didn't distinguish pilots by military, CPL or lowly PPL.....

To echo Joel's point above, if the fan and the s**t come together, it makes sense to me to have rules that can be flexed to make best use of resources to achieve the best outcome.

JTobias

26th Nov 2012, 12:53

Guys

All interesting points, and clearly there would have to be some strategy adopted, but it seems as if the idea might be reasonably well received. Obviously the circumstances would have to be right (weather, search detail, etc) but I guess the point is that another set of eyes (even without the correct equipment may be beneficial. even if it were just a cursory search of an area prior to the search teams attending with the correct equipment.

Joel :ok:

hihover

26th Nov 2012, 13:09

Guys, why is everyone up in arms about this and allowing the issue to draw some of you into name-calling and dragging up irrelevant historical events?

It sounds like a generous offer to me, but that is as far as it can go without the required AOC or approvals from the relevant authorities.

Ag Bis got it right a few posts ago. He also identified another word which is screaming out - Walt! This is why the authorities exist.

There should be no need to get heated on here. If he gets the approvals and runs a professional outfit, excellent, someone will benefit from his generosity down the road. Who knows, it could even be a conceptual testbed that might be followed in other areas of the UK and even employ some professional helicopter pilots in the future.

We need to relax and let the authorities do what they are there for.

Tam

FLY 7

26th Nov 2012, 13:15

One observation. This thread is largely based on "newspaper reporting"

I don't buy/read newspapers because, IMO, the majority of journalism is distorted, inaccurate, mis-reported, over-sensationalised, mis-quoted.....

'Courting the press' can often lead to burnt fingers, but I wouldn't resort to judge, jury and hangman without wishing to hear Mr Paxton's comments.

JTobias

26th Nov 2012, 14:28

Hi All,

I wonder if it's worth setting up some form of Immediate Action team ?
we could have a uniform and use aliases (instead of our real names).

Just a thought?

Joel :p

http://i551.photobucket.com/albums/ii457/joel_tobias/PICT0531.jpg

EESDL

26th Nov 2012, 14:30

Wonder how long Paxton needs for him to be able to refer to this selfless act to aid his next planning permission application............

ShyTorque

26th Nov 2012, 14:52

Hi All,

I wonder if it's worth setting up some form of Immediate Action team ?
we could have a uniform and use aliases (instead of our real names).

Just a thought?

Joel

Sorry, mate. I'm all tied up, rescuing model aircraft from treetops, YeeHaa!

SilsoeSid

26th Nov 2012, 15:56

Guys, why is everyone up in arms about this and allowing the issue to draw some of you into name-calling and dragging up irrelevant historical events?

Maybe because some of us think that foresight is a much, much better tool than hindsight!

For those of you that are keen to constantly remind us that you are an owner or instructor, you should automatically be getting the GASCO Flight Safety magazine. Have a look at this Autumns edition, in particular the article on page 12 and the one on page 15 :ok:

Anthony Supplebottom

26th Nov 2012, 16:03

Hughes500, small question? Have you been to Paxo's home helipad? Is there ample room for him to conduct his daily checks on the tail section?

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/11/15/article-0-1607169D000005DC-660_634x410.jpg

SilsoeSid

26th Nov 2012, 16:21

Those bloody newspaper reports again;
This is Gloucestershire (http://www.thisisgloucestershire.co.uk/Water-Park-daredevil-takes-Shard-plunge/story-16765722-detail/story.html)

"I understand the need to fund the rehabilitation of servicemen as my brother was in the SAS from the paras and served in the Regiment from 1986 to 1991," he said.

"He always loves it when I take risks.

Cheese slice number 11

hihover

26th Nov 2012, 16:38

Of course, you're absolutely right, foresight is a better tool, but only if you put that tool to good use.

At the moment, all you are doing is a character assassination by bumping your gums on a rumor network. If you feel strongly about it and don't believe the authorities will do their bit then do something yourself.

Tam

SilsoeSid

26th Nov 2012, 16:41

Anyone know how you become an airborne fire ranger?

Fire fighting and sumo wrestling………. :: JetBox (http://www.jetbox.aero/2011/11/fire-fighting-and-sumo-wrestling/#more-3821)

Hughes500

26th Nov 2012, 16:46

Supple
As everyone is having a go at me I can only speak as I find having met him 5 or 6 times and flown with him for about 4 hours
The pix is a classic example of everyone believing the press. He retospectivly applied having put a turntable in his garden so he could inspect the tail section. That is what led to the planning problems.
To all those that think the idea is reckless, mad, etc etc, DO NOT call him names when you have never seen his skill level or met him, it makes you look ......... his heart is in the right place as is his money, he does an awful lot for various communities and organisations.
Mr B yes I will speak to him, as this was news to me when i saw it in the Times. Personally I dont think it is a great idea, but then again given the correct set of circumstances who knows. If it was your daughter dying in an RTA because the cutting gear was stuck in traffic I know what everyone on this site would do / allow !
Yes it may not be workable, it may be unsafe but any risk assessment will sort that out. Is it any risker than a 250 hour cpl carrying pax or as in one case i am involved with a 250 hour pilot tree sawing in Sweden with a 400kg saw 50 ft under the 500 and less than 10m from the 11000kw lines ?:uhoh:
If nothing else it has put into the public domain (that none of you would have a hope of doing) how useful the machines we fly are.
As to being able to carry firefighters, i have had 3 in my machine and was able to deploy them where HM SeaKing couldnt land ( 5 shuttles for the 15 guys) every machine has its advantages and disadvantages. One 500 is better than nothing.
I shall now retire to my trench with overhead protection:hmm:

SilsoeSid

26th Nov 2012, 17:12

If you feel strongly about it and don't believe the authorities will do their bit then do something yourself.

Dear Hughes500, (not having a go)

As you told us earlier that you have taken Mr Paxton's last LPC's, I assume you have his contact details and very probably be taking his next.

While you are in conversation next, please let him know that at least one of his fellow aviators is concerned about some of his personality traits. Traits recognised in others that have led them to believe that because you are successful in one aspect if your life, doesn't necessarily mean this success will transfer to aviation.

Single pilot CRM may be scoffed at by some people here, however a moments reflection before lifting could very possibly save his life and the lives of those in the aircraft with him.

If only a message such as this could have been passed to others, but we never do until its too late, do we?

However, maybe a bit of direction to this thread would suffice, simply to read my concerns.

Regards

Hughes500

26th Nov 2012, 17:18

SS
Firstly my respects for your post, very professional unlike many.
I agree with you entirely and will be speaking to him about it, as I have said personally I dont think it is a good idea. What I object to is the school playground name calling that is going on.
when I have spoken to him i will report back to the forum, you never know it may have been blown out of all preportion by the press.

Anthony Supplebottom

26th Nov 2012, 17:27

500, for God's sake don't take any of this personally and I really don't think anyone is having a go, for my part while I think that old Paxo may be a bit caught up in himself I'm sure he's as nice as pie but - I think his idea is totally unworkable though and would invite more problems than it would solve.

From my side its light-hearted banter - I mean this is a great opportunity to speak clearly and plainly about such a matter and from what I can see that's what pprune is all about!

Hughes500

26th Nov 2012, 17:44

Supple

Point taken !:)

[email protected]

26th Nov 2012, 20:24

Hughes500 - I am sure he is a very nice, capable and generous chap but even the good guys need telling they are being a prat now and again, especially when their intended actions will serve no practical purpose and could easily lead to interfering with or hampering the emergency services carrying out their jobs.

I don't know if you have any SAR/HEMS/Police experience to base your assertion that Mr Paxton is capable of operating in such a role but if he wants to do this, the first step is to consider some training.

The most important part of an emergency services operation is communications - what are his plans for that??? Does he have an airwave set? Does he have access to the appropriate net? or does he think a well meaning amateur floating around with no idea of the protocols or SOPS of the rest of the emergency services is a good idea?

For Mr Paxton's helicopter to be of use, the incident will have to be in good (ish) weather, by day and in an area only accessible by a small helicopter (assuming there are no other airborne assets available). Whilst I am sure someone will think of a scenario or two where these planets might align, I can think of hundreds where they won't.

Out of interest, just how many hours does Mr Paxton have and does he have an IR?

I am not dissing the indivdual, just a really rubbish idea.:ok:

Thomas coupling

26th Nov 2012, 21:19

I can't believe people are talking like this. Here is a guy offering a taxi service to the emergency services. He has no government mandate, he has no licence to carry this operation out. He will need exemptions to land at ad hoc sites close to the 'disaster site. He might need permissions to fly outside of the low fly rules to get the job done. Of course this will NEVER happen to a private operator with or without a group of 'mates' who can be telephoned to help out. The whole thing is preposterous.
Can anyone on here think of ANY circumstances when the emergency services will EVER need to call on someone in the neighbourhood to offer a helping hand because the services have 'run out' of assets?????
Please - if we are going to talk a modicum of common sense here, let's keep everything in proportion. Short of a mass public exodus from the scene of an apocalyptic disaster and using everything that can fly drive and sail to save lives (nuclear war, imminent tsunami, UKIP winning the general election) the emergency services will always tap into a professional response team like the military/police/hems.
Let's keep this tongue in cheek - where it deserves to be. Serious comments about the slimmest possibility of this taking off make those who make such comments - look ridiculous and naive.
Take a look at how he treats flight safety. He parks a half ton hand grenade, 30 feet from his conservatory, balanced on a postage stamp. Absolutely no consideration whatsoever for reject areas, walk arounds and wind conditions.
People like this give the industry a very bad name. Could one imagine living next door to this prat?:mad:

birrddog

26th Nov 2012, 21:56

When folks united by a common bond of aviation can't discuss a topic without resorting to slander, how can we expect to have a reasonable dialogue with those outside of aviation who are trying to curb our rights?

As stated by many, there are several sticky issues that make this idea impractical, though we should at least be able to discuss this "professionally", banter aside.

Pittsextra

26th Nov 2012, 22:02

you forget unless you have 10000 hours total time and an ATPL there is a question mark over your frame of reference and essentially you are always going to be a CU next tuesday..

chopper2004

26th Nov 2012, 22:07

Also with regard to coming in as extra hands --with a single engined option

Aerial Fire fighting, Helicopter rides, helicopter flights, helicopter charter, Helicopter Fire Fighting | Aerial Fire Fighting | Helicopter hire, flights & rides (http://www.penninehelis.co.uk/fire.php)

Air Ambulance Services from Pennine Helicopters, helicopter charter (http://www.penninehelis.co.uk/ambulance.php)

If he was a member of HAI and lived in the USA, then he would be welcome to sign up for the First Responder Program whereby in a disaster whereby the authorities could ask for outside help, the Association could call on their member who signed up with their aircraft and mobilized to said situation.

Also uses of MD500 in firefighting service

http://www.mdhelicopters.com/news/pdf/Hawaii%20Fire%20Patrol%20500E.pdf

MD Helicopters - News (http://www.mdhelicopters.com/v2/news.php)

Cheers

chopjock

26th Nov 2012, 22:24

TC
He will need exemptions to land at ad hoc sites close to the 'disaster site. He might need permissions to fly outside of the low fly rules to get the job done. I thought you could breach the ANO low flying rules etc in the interests of saving life?

Bertie Thruster

26th Nov 2012, 22:31

Hooray! Someone else to have a go cleaning up all the fresh blood and vomit before it creeps into and under the myriad of joints and crevices in the floor of the helicopter.

Not to mention the olfactory challenge of flying casualties with copremesis.

Good luck to em!

Hughes500

27th Nov 2012, 06:03

Crab

He does have an IR and has way more than a 1000 hours on type.
Isnt the idea of a helicopter is you can park it on a postage stamp ?
The rest of the name calling I will leave to you very professional pilots, count me out

John R81

27th Nov 2012, 07:57

Seems he also has training in firefighting helicopters - according to the other thread running http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/467671-uks-first-airborne-fire-ranger.html

I sometimes wonder how much each post tells us about the poster, rather than the subject of the post.

[email protected]

27th Nov 2012, 09:39

Hughes 500Isnt the idea of a helicopter is you can park it on a postage stamp ?I think there is a little more to the roles of a helicopter than that;)

The rest of the name calling I will leave to you very professional pilots, count me out now you are starting to sound petulant which doesn't seem in character - if Mr Paxton can't take a little critcism (and the worst he has been called is a prat) when he comes up with a poor idea (and you agree that it is a poor idea) then he can't be the fine fellow (and customer) you are supporting on here.

Both his 'fire-ranger' and fire brigade assistant ideas and broadly laduable as sentiment from one who wants to help (himself in the case of the fire-bucket stuff) but why not do it quietly instead of the self-aggrandising press releases with cheesy posng in an SAS-style flying suit.

If he doesn't want to come across as a walt or overeager wannabe then tell him to just enjoy his flying - if he wants something more challenging I would happily fly with him and take him to Snowdonia or similar but this obsession with being part of the emergency services setup in UK is a non-starter.

The fire ranger stuff is another example of a little knowledge being a dangerous thing - anyone who has done any fire-bucketing will know that you need beaters on the ground AND the fire bucket AND some co-ordination between the two - just dumping water willy-nilly won't help much.

toptobottom

27th Nov 2012, 10:05

Egos, schmeegos. Oh the irony!

The idea may be flawed in many ways, but I don't understand why that should cause such an anti-collegial reaction from those who call themselves professional. The knee-jerk assumption that he's a PPL and therefore an accident to happen is rather predictable - and sad. With his IR and other experience, he sounds a lot more qualified than many CPLs I know; I'm not certain what he did to deserve being labelled a 'prat'.

Geoffersincornwall

27th Nov 2012, 10:10

Many of the little ships that helped at Dunkerque came from the nautical equivalent of our PPL population so one might use that analogy to contemplate some kind of role for aviation resources.

The important step required before any such contemplation became a reality would be to address the issues CRAB and others have tabled:
Training
Communications
Equipment
Tasking
Regulation

My experience in the world of HEMS & POLICE leads me to be at one and the same time grateful and anxious when it comes to 'volunteers'. Those who tend to want to help seem to fall into a couple of categories - (a) Willing and able, & (b) willing and a liability . 'Well meaning' does not necessary deliver a positive contribution and therein lies the rub.

Maybe Mr Paxton should learn to walk before he tries the running bit.

G.

Agaricus bisporus

27th Nov 2012, 11:05

Well, if he wants to set up a charitable trust with an AOC I'm sure his chief pilot will get him suitably trained in the role if his ability and experience is to the insurers' taste. And they get suitable airframe/s. And. And. And. But it will be an expensive and unsatisfying experience I fear. How many times in the last 10 years has there been an application for this service? Gonna spend a long time in the crewroom, aren't they?

Bambi buckets have been around for yonks. Have they ever been used in anger in UK to any significant degree?

This thing is self-limiting. Done properly it might work - economics aside which alone will scupper it, do it on the buckshee and the system won't let it get past the publicity headlines.

TRC

27th Nov 2012, 11:21

Bambi buckets have been around for yonks. Has one ever been used in anger?

You are joking, of course.

DOUBLE BOGEY

27th Nov 2012, 11:44

SolsoeSid - I am with "Tam" on this one. You are way off the mark. The guy does a stunt for Charity and you use it in a negative way.

Have you forgotten that HRH the Duke of York did the same stunt and he is a helicopter pilot too with a fine record in the FI for flying into the smoke from burning vessels with his Seaking to help the lads who were in deep trouble.

Maybe you want to get some in before you continue trashing this blokes reputation. Have a go at me instead. At least I probably deserve it!!

Spend just a few moments thinking how your thoughtless childish jibes send such a poor message about our profession to a guy who we should really be encouraging as "One of our Own".

Posting the drivel that you do does not make you seem clever. It just brings the rest of us down into the mire with you.

H500 - I am with you on this one. I feel sorry for the poor bloke. Please give hime a message from me. Tell him not all PPRUNE posters are "Prats" and good luck to him and well done for having the guts to land with a VIP on board rather than press on.

DB

John R81

27th Nov 2012, 11:53

BBC BBC News - Jeremy Paxton's helicopter help for Wiltshire fire service (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-20496038)

I don't see this going ahead without being lawful etc. So (hopefully) the trial will be legal and it will take place.

Now suppose, just for a minute.......

The trial takes place
It is a fantastic success; the Fire Service realise what a valuable asset it is to have a helicopter on standby
But a single-engined machine is not always capable of doing what we want
And a private machine ie not always available..... [thinks].....

Let's have our own! Full time, crewed, etc.
Or at least let's have an extra machine with the Police and duel-use

Glass half-full? Anyone?

JTobias

27th Nov 2012, 12:14

Hey Guys,

Everyone seems to be mud slinging here. There also seems to be a huge misconception between PPL's and CPL's/ATPL's. Lets not forget that incidents have occurred whilst both/all categories of license holder have been PIC of an aircraft.

Lets set the record straight here a little bit. The main difference between a CPL and a PPL is that the CPL is allowed to use his/her license privileges for the purposes of hire and reward. Although there is a training programme and examinations, that does not necessarily guarantee that the CPL holder is in any way a better, or a more capable pilot, than a PPL.

As I've said earlier, I have at least one friend (in fact two) who are CPL holders and they both have less than 250 hours total time. They simply chose to continue their training to the CPL.

As far as Jeremy Paxton goes, I've met him once and read about him loads. He's certainly an interesting character and in the press regularly. I couldn't possibly comment on his flying ability or attitude, but he is an aircraft owner. I believe he flies very regularly and has 1000's of hours. I would imagine that he has the requisite skills to undertake most reasonable helicopter trips.

Whilst we may not all understand or agree with this scheme, there are obviously schemes in other countries where all forms of assistance from volunteers are accepted. Would there be a problem 'in principle' if I saw an emergency services person running down a flooded street somewhere and offered to drive him in my 4x4 to the other end of it ? I guess not.

Similarly, if a specialist surgeon needed to be transported to an accident site that was inaccessible by road for whatever reason, would there really be any issue with Jeremy transporting him, if no other aircraft were available. Let's not forget that if the surgeon happened to live next door to Jeremy and knocked on to his neighbours house, Jeremy could quite easily land him in a field nearby to the incident without breaking any laws, (save for trespass potentially which is a tort and not a criminal offence) and without flying outside the privileges of his license .

I'm neither for nor against the idea, but I think everyone is getting over excited about the complexities of the mission here. It's sounds to me (regardless of how unlikely the chance of it happening is) that Jeremy would simply be giving someone a lift to the scene of an incident. I would imagine he's quite capable of accomplishing that mission without incident.

Joel :ok:

Geoffersincornwall

27th Nov 2012, 12:46

Jeremy would simply be giving someone a lift to the scene of an incident. I would imagine he's quite capable of accomplishing that mission without incident.

Be warned that professional HEMS/Police/SAR crews around the world who do the job day in day out still find it possible to come to grief. Please NEVER underestimate the ability of adrenalin to spoil your day.

G.

nigelh

27th Nov 2012, 12:55

DB ......I don't know what pills you have started taking .....but don't stop :D
I know you are a v professional pilot but at least you can see that some life saving operation can be done safely by a non cpl ....if done with normal care and no heroics .....
We got the typical Col Blimp sort of crap from TC that we have all come to expect ....I find it amazing that a pilot who preens himself so much is not capable of having a discussion without resort to name calling :rolleyes:
For myself I would agree there would probably not be a lot of times where it could slot in without possibly disrupting other services ....but you don't have to save many lives for it to be well worth while . I have landed and picked up firefighters and taken them to the top of a moorland fire , saving them a 45 mins slog up the hill and then took the chief up to see where it was spreading to and find some access . They were v grateful and reckoned it saved 1,000 s of acres . If asked I would quite happily , and safely , land on a road or nearby field with equipment or people . Some of you here are just so insecure .....but IF your child was lying on the ground somewhere inaccessible you would be VERY happy to put them into a private helicopter to be taken to a waiting ambulance I am quite sure . If you say otherwise TC ...then who is the prat then ???

SilsoeSid

27th Nov 2012, 13:37

DB;
SolsoeSid - I am with "Tam" on this one. You are way off the mark. The guy does a stunt for Charity and you use it in a negative way.

Have you forgotten that HRH the Duke of York did the same stunt and he is a helicopter pilot too with a fine record in the FI for flying into the smoke from burning vessels with his Seaking to help the lads who were in deep trouble.

Maybe you want to get some in before you continue trashing this blokes reputation. Have a go at me instead. At least I probably deserve it!!

Spend just a few moments thinking how your thoughtless childish jibes send such a poor message about our profession to a guy who we should really be encouraging as "One of our Own".

Posting the drivel that you do does not make you seem clever. It just brings the rest of us down into the mire with you.

I was hoping to leave it at the letter post to H500, however;

Firstly you must remember that a lot of people do charity events for different reasons. For example, there is a difference between those that run the London Marathon to raise money for charity. Some support a charity to run the marathon, while some run the marathon to support a charity.

Prince Andrew was a highly trained Naval Pilot. Trained by highly experienced instructors over a long and intense period of time during which phases are built in to chop the candidates not up to the grade. (Not simply the ones with loads of money). Oh, just one little point.....he was flying the incident you mention during a war!

How much 'in time' do I need to have your permission to express my opinion and I'd be very interested to know what I need in order to be 'in'?

My childish jibes and drivel, as you put it, are there purposely in this instance NOT to encourage "one of our own", because I don't want 'our' numbers to decrease more than can possibly be avoided.

There is a great difference between saving lives or doing what is necessary as the incidents suddenly present themselves, but to set up a private Thunderbirds operation with a bunch of mates seems to me, at best, foolhardy. I'm sure that there might be a few floater jobs around or why not set up a properly organised and managed reaction unit if someone wants to do the emergency service type flying. However, ask yourself the question...why don't they want to do it that way?

DOUBLE BOGEY

27th Nov 2012, 14:05

NigelH - I could not agree with you more. At the end of the day the helicopter is a fantastic tool that has always proven its worth time and again in emergency response.

Lets not forget of course that Rule 6 allows a little latitude for "Saving Lives". (Had to slip a little rule in there to make me feel better).

Mr Paxton has been flying for 30 years. That makes him a survivor in my book whether he has a PPL, CPL or an ATPL. I wish I had 30 years expereince under my belt when I was flying HEMs!!!

I think he has a good idea that properly deployed, could make a real difference. As other poster have noted there are approvals and guidelines to follow so why should we worry!!

Surely we should applaud him for promoting helicopters, doing good stuff and trying to help people.

NigelH - I knew we would see eye-to-eye one day (Ash cloud aside!!!)

silsoesid - if you are only "worried" about safety - why do you find it necessary to make fun of the charitable work the man is doing - and try to infer that he enjoys "Risk"???

DB

DOUBLE BOGEY

27th Nov 2012, 14:14

THOMAS COUPLING - Are you a Pilot??? If so why is an H500 a "1/2 Ton Hand Grenade". I though it was a nice looking little helicopter.

If I had enough money I would have a helipad in my garden and invite NigelH in for a coffee now we are freinds!!

DB

SilsoeSid

27th Nov 2012, 14:33

Just read through Rule 6 DB, can't see what you're referring to, please paste for us.

silsoesid - if you are only "worried" about safety - why do you find it necessary to make fun of the charitable work the man is doing - and try to infer that he enjoys "Risk"???

I am not making fun of anything, I am simply saying that different people do charity work for different reasons. (Strange that he abseiled down the shard for the Royal Marines Charitable Trust, when his brother was a Para)

I don't infer he enjoys risk, I just quoted him earlier when he reportedly said "...my brother was in the SAS from the paras and served in the Regiment from 1986 to 1991..
...He always loves it when I take risks."

Still waiting to see how I can qualify for your, 'In Crowd'!

[email protected]

27th Nov 2012, 15:31

JT and DB - I don't think anyone is saying that a private helicopter shouldn't be used to save lives if the occasion arises and there is one available.

What is being criticised is the level of publicity Mr Paxton is giving himself about his desire to do this.

If a member of the public can help the emergency services because they are in the right place and at the right time with the right skills and equipment that is wonderful - I think it is called community spirit.

But - what would you say to someone who owns a landrover and put out a press release (with a picture of himself in black overalls) to say he would follow the fire and rescue service around just in case they needed him?

It is not his sentiments that are wrong here - it is the way he has gone about this - doesn't he know all superheroes keep their identity secret and only appear in public when their services are required???

Anthony Supplebottom

27th Nov 2012, 16:18

- doesn't he know all superheroes keep their identity secret and only appear in public when their services are required?

Ha ha, nice one! :ok:

JTobias

27th Nov 2012, 16:35

Hi Crab

I agree that if generosity and charitable work is the aim here then it's best kept quiet. I do think though, that some people are making a clear distinction between the abilities of private pilots compared to professional ones. (Even though Jeremy Paxton is a professional pilot I believe, although not by occupation.) The inference being, that private pilots are less capable/competent than professional pilots. If I'm wrong in my interpretation, then I apologise.

Geoffersin cornwall - i agree that adrenalin can spoil your day. I did allude to this though in my reference to all license holders potentially coming to grief.

And my name's Joel !!!! (no offence taken!!)

Joel :ok:

[email protected]

27th Nov 2012, 19:28

The cynic in me wonders if the fire and rescue service are supporting this as a means of trying to prove they need their own helicopters. It was only a short time ago they announced they would have their own dedicated fleet of helos only to be smacked down by DfT (I think) on the grounds of cost vs limited requirement.

If Jeremy's helo can get one high profile job (where they deliberately won't have tasked SAR or military assets), it will give Trumpton a stick to beat central govt with.

Empire building perhaps:E

And for the record, I don't think his piloting skills are in question - after all he is only going to be required to take off and land, possibly in a confined area, by day with some pax and a limited amount of kit (pods sounds very grand) on board.

homonculus

27th Nov 2012, 20:16

Any idea what might be in a 'pod' small enough and light enough to fit in or under a 500 that would be essential kit to the fire service but not routinely carried in one of those massive red trucks with blue lights on?

Hope it's not too essential in case Mr P's 500 is in maintenance, or he is doing his day job, or the weather is iffy, or its dark, or he's just has a beer........

500e

27th Nov 2012, 20:49

http://www.ahhelicopters.co.uk/photos/Lifting_spares_small.JPGhomonculus any help

SilsoeSid

27th Nov 2012, 22:51

Further to crabs post, the whole idea was indeed scrapped on financial reasons;

FIRE BRIGADES UNION
IMMEDIATE RELEASE 10th August 2009

CASH STRAPPED ESSEX FIRE AUTHORITY SAYS IT HAS SO LITTLE CASH IT NEEDS TO CUT FRONTLINE FIREFIGHTERS – BUT WANTS A HELICOPTER!

An Essex fire authority plan to buy a helicopter has been branded as “toys for boys” by the Fire Brigades Union. The union says any available money should be spent on frontline fire services threatened with £3 million of cuts because of a budget squeeze.

The fire authority plans to cut one in ten frontline station-based firefighters because it says it needs to save £3 million. But plans to buy a helicopter were set out at a Fire Authority meeting on 24 July and the meeting approved spending on a feasibility study.

Essex Fire Brigades Union chair Keith Flynn said: “Frontline crews are furious the fire authority is demanding major cuts to the 999 emergency response, while taking steps to buy a helicopter. This is the worst kind of “toys for the boys” spending in the middle of a budget squeeze.

“No other fire authority in the UK has a helicopter. It is totally unnecessary and especially so in the middle of a budget squeeze.

“Every penny of any available money must go to protecting the frontline 999 emergency response service. The fire authority needs to get its head out of the clouds and come back down to the real world where the rest of us live.”

Helicopter Feasibility Study Report: EFA/082/09

Fire Authority Paper EFA/082/09 – tabled at the last fire authority meeting on 24 July - committed the FRA to finding additional funding to carry out a feasibility study into the purchase of a helicopter. The paper is available from the fire authority website.

***ENDS***

http://www.essex-fire.gov.uk/images/efa/Agenda_Item_15_EFA-082-09_Helicopter_PART_1_NEEDS_APPENDIX.pdf
22 July 2009
EFA/082/09
Helicopter Feasibility Study Report

Despite the very positive outcomes of the feasibility study it is clear that the project would only be viable at this time for mainstream use if external funding is secured. Either/or Government grant and sponsorship are the most likely mechanisms that would need to be secured and as such, for mainstream use, these should be the focus of ongoing work.

SilsoeSid

28th Nov 2012, 00:11

Multi mission Pods !!!

For that, there can be only one choice;

Thunderbird 2

Or specifically for fire-fighting...

Sky Crane Tanker fills up

...there are many choices

Helicopter Fire-Fighting

Of course, if the fire is less than 40 miles away, Mr P could always use the device he is presently promoting.

JetLev Promo - YouTube
Meet the businessman who flies to work in his very own Bond-style jet pack. (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2208711/Bored-old-commute-Meet-businessman-flies-work-Bond-style-jet-pack.html)

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/09/26/article-2208711-14F599F5000005DC-998_634x381.jpg

Hummingfrog

28th Nov 2012, 10:02

Mr Paxton's could have problems with his JetLev commute:{

He says the 40-mile journey from his riverside boathouse home in Marpledurham near Reading to his office at the Lower Mill Estate in the Cotswolds is possible because the River Thames and waterways run direct between the two.

The JetLev works by towing a boat behind it to provide a base for the water pump. The max speed for a boat on the Thames is 5mph so a 40 mile commute would take 8 hrs!

The makers say that, depending on pilot weight, a standard JetLev Flyer could top speeds of 30mph and cruise for between two to three hours before refueling with a range of around 80 miles.

He would run out of fuel 25 miles short of his destination:eek:

No further comment!

HF

toptobottom

28th Nov 2012, 11:01

Getting through the dozen or so locks would be interesting too. Maybe Crab was right after all...

SilsoeSid

28th Nov 2012, 11:02

Not to mention, Mapledurham Lock, Whitchurch bridge and lock, the locks at Goring, Benson lock, 'Days lock', Little Wittinham lock, Culham lock, Abington lock, Sandford lock, Oxford southern lock, Osney Mill lock, Oxford north lock, Godstow lock, Wolvercote lock, Swinford lock, Pink Hill lock, Northmoor lock, a particularly low footbridge, Shifford lock, another low footbridge, yet another, Tadpole bridge lock, another footbridge, Radcot lock, Eaton Hastings lock, Buscot lock, St Johns lock, another foot bridge and is it really navigable from there to Cricklade, let alone onward to a point that is a 3 min walk from the office?

I can imagine there would be quite a bit of lugging around with all those locks to negotiate, I wonder how much the 250 HP, 4 stroke engine weighs.
Welcome to the Official Jetlev-Flyer Website | Jetlev-Flyer (http://www.jetlev-flyer.com/home.html)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CrC4Z9YkGBs

toptobottom

28th Nov 2012, 11:04

SNAP!!

SS - You've obviously got too much time on your hands! :p

handysnaks

28th Nov 2012, 11:11

Accuracy, brevity, clarity! I think TTB beats SS 2-1:p

SilsoeSid

28th Nov 2012, 11:26

ttb,
I started the list when I first saw the story, a couple of days ago, just needed the opportunity to post :ok:

40 miles ... it's more than 48 by taking the A417, have you seen some of those river loops?

Yes handy, before you feel the need to post, we know the Jetlev doesn't go on roads thanks :rolleyes:

thedandyfireman

28th Nov 2012, 13:27

Hello there, as a member of 'Trumpton', for nigh on twenty years, I was interested to see what professional pilots would think of this. My own brigade trialled a helicopter recently in a few VERY carefully organised scenarios, ie, the aircraft could land right next to the incident rather than landing a mile away and having to rely on a lift to get to the incident, as the air ambulance often does in my small town. Having said that, it landed next to a chemical incident scenario and would have contaminated half the city!!

He can only carry two firemen, plus a bit of equipment, he has to get airborne, transfer to a point to pick the aforementioned firemen up, and their very limited equipment, fly them to the incident, find somewhere to land, get the equipment and personnel to the incident, etc, etc, etc.

In the meantime, the fire crew, travelling on a big red lorry, are already at the scene, so, the two 'Airborne' blokes are just two spare hands. If they miraculously get there first, then, what are they going to do? Even a swift water rescue incident would be risky with just two.

There is a reason why fire engines are crewed with a minimum of four. We pride ourselves on our speed of response, we are out of the doors in under a couple of minutes at my full time station with a FULL crew and FULL equipment - the retained, (part-timers) take a few minutes longer. As someone has mentioned, a helicopter would be great for transferring personnel to a grass fire and for observation, and, during a conversation with a RAF SAR crew, they would be more than willing for us to use them, but, a front-line response? No way! I pay four quid a month for a lottery for my local air ambulance as you never know if you'll need it, a bit like us, really. If the bloke wants to make such a magnanimous gesture, can I recommend he donates the money to his local air ambulance? Thanks for your time.

topendtorque

28th Nov 2012, 16:00

Thanks ttb, for reminding me why I was saying that with Flannery over there in the last year or so spruiking up your droughts and global warming, that it wouldn't be long before good drought breaking rains arrived, and , hey presto. Good luck

Hughes500

28th Nov 2012, 18:40

Ok guys Mr P spoke to me today to ask for my advice on what he had been asked to do by the Brigade, namely to use a longline under the heli with a fireman on the end, to water rescue people :uhoh: He was very concerned that this was not a safe thing to do and asked if I would do such a thing ( I went for the obvious answer)
What he is doing is the following
1. Recce of the fire with the incident commander already done a trial on a live factory fire, result was positive with brigade being very happy as result a reckeoned 12 hours less time on scene.
2. JP has funded the pods, these are US Fire Dept cutting kit, which is battery powered and doesnt rely on massive hydraulic pumps. In most cases it out performs the old systems currently used ( so I am told) The pod fits easily in the back of a 500. These latest systems cant be afforded by the Brigades
Overall the " service " is a recce and move equipment to areas that would be difficult for a normal pump to get to. I have gone over the various things that have been bought up by the " Rotorheads Panel "plus some of my own reservations. So far it would appear the risk assessments and SOP's would appear to have been done, no i havent seen them.
The most interesting result from the article is the sponsership that will possibly lead on from it. At the moment a very wealthy UK resident is looking at funding a fully equipped " fire and rescue " helicopter, I am afraid I dont know anything further. For JP to say he is wealthy means he is in the super league.
Perhaps the outcome will be better than most fear, if nothing else we might see a " fire and rescue heli" much like the air ambulance system, after all it is about speed of reaction " The Golden hour" no good having an air ambulance there if you cant get the people out .
A personl request here please do not shoot the messanger. I have no control over JP but he does ask me for advice on some areas, yes I have explained our reservations.

Helinut

28th Nov 2012, 19:27

I understand that after their trial, Avon & Somerset F&R (OR AT LEAST F&R FOR THAT AREA) are planning to contract for a ME hele to do what JP is planning to do. Invitations to bid have gone out to a number of AOC holders. We are talking something like an EC145 I am told.

I have real reservations about the viability of any of these models.

This is not to say that occasionally a Fire Service has not made very good use of a police hele with FLIR. The camera provides brilliant information about a fire. My reservations are more to do with the frequency with which a hele might be useful, and what other things a stretched emergency service might usefully spend its money on. Given that Trumpington, ably assisted by central government, wasted £X00 M on their completely useless regional control rooms over the last few years, you cannot have much hope in their strategic decision making. Given that they know also didly squat about aviation, the chance of a right royal f****up must be quite high.

For me, one of the underlying problems is that the fire service seem to be planning to use the hele as a replacement for some other part of their existing setup: removing trucks and/or people. In an emergency, you cannot rely on a helicopter. As we all know there are countless reasons why we would not be able to turn up in all cases. So you would need to keep the existing setup, so no saving of money.

JP's Thunderbird outfit is, shall we say different. Reviewing H500s latest expose, the one thing that seems to be missing is input from a helicopter professional. You can bury yourself in risk assessments, but if those involved are not familiar with the hazards and risks of the particular operation, it is worse than a waste of time. It is worse than a waste of time because people are lulled into a false sense of security that RAs have been done, and that provides some sort of guarantee of safety. The RA process is just a framework: it does nothing without the involvement of relevant experienced people. The usual problem is that the hazard identification process will be flawed and miss entirely significant hazards.

misterbonkers

28th Nov 2012, 21:12

H500 - glad to hear JP has been in touch and you've had chance to express people's reservations.

On a different note perhaps if there was less of a stigma of ME/SE capability in EASA land the services might not struggle to procure helicopters.

Does anyone know if the fire brigade have to use ME helicopters? Would AS350B2/3s not be a good idea (or H500s at the very least!).

SilsoeSid

28th Nov 2012, 21:31

Thanks to H500 and JP for getting some of the details here and also for thedandyfiremans 'frontline' viewpoint.

Many points to discuss, but I think generous regular support of his local Air Ambulance (http://www.wiltshireairambulance.co.uk/) (which just so happens to also be a police ac with all the cameras, nitesun, comms, dispensations etc etc) would be the way to go. Recently a large fire in the Midlands had the support of the 2 local police ac, with the air ambulance also on scene.

It would be very interesting to find out how many times the Wiltshire AA have been contacted by the fire service to assist in recent years, bearing in mind that the Wiltshire Air Ambulance flies 365 days a year, 19 hours a day.

'Battery powered cutting kit', now what kind of battery would that be then? :eek:

Dear JP, I'd like to see those Burma Spitfires airborne. :ok:

Thomas coupling

29th Nov 2012, 09:23

Hughes 500, you need to appraise your buddy of the following circumstances before he wastes any more money on this heath robinson arrangement.

I don't know (or missed) who the fire brigade is, that he is talking to. But they need to understand that 'they' (whoever the individual officer is) cannot go directly to a private individual for business. The reason for this is because the service JP would end up offering would be one for reward or hire (not necessarily financial) and that has to be carried out by a professional (AOC) holder. Presumably JP doesn't have said license?
Second - he should have alarm bells ringing in this regard when the fireman asks if he can undersling a fireman on a rope :ugh:
Thirdly, JP isn't allowed below 1500 feet over a built up area as he has to always retain an engine(s) out glide capability away from the houses/factories beneath him.
Fourthly, the CAA will audit him (if he has an AOC) and they will apply the normal EASA /UK regs for an emergency services helicopter which means it MUST be a ME aircraft.
Now we are in a whole new world of running costs. The best entry level helo for fire fighting activities used to be the BK117 this has been superceded by the EC145. The latter being a very competent emergency services aircraft.
[A cheap approach could perhaps be a twin squirrell or 355N.]

Now for the elephant in the room: The Fire Service in the UK is bust. They have NEVER had any money - not in the past and certainly will NEVER have spare cash in future after bungling the biggest PFI catastrophe ever several years ago with their new control centres, each costing tens of millions of pounds, dotted all round the country and all of them either unfit for purpose OR too expensive to run.
Several very efficient /effective AOC operators have bent over backwards to help the fire service (McAlpine/Eurocpoter/Premiair) in the past but the project has always floundered when the fire service realised how much it costs to run a 1 or 2 ship fire fighting unit. You probably wouldnt get much change out of 1.5 million a year minimum, with leased a/c never mind your own.
Tell your mate to wake up - smell the coffee and do what was suggested by SilSoe - give the money to the local well organised HEMS unit. He could even become a patron if he wants some close in action.

thedandyfireman

29th Nov 2012, 09:28

"Given that Trumpington, ably assisted by central government, wasted £X00 M on their completely useless regional control rooms over the last few years, you cannot have much hope in their strategic decision making."

Sorry, that was NOTHING to do with us. That was all down to Fatty Prescott and his regionalisation agenda. We were the ones that were shouting from the rooftops about how much it was, and is still costing, but were ignored.

thedandyfireman

29th Nov 2012, 09:55

Thomas Coupling is absolutely spot on - the fire service IS bust. My brigade are looking at a massive reduction in our funding from central government. Jobs, frontline firemen's jobs, are being lost. My own watch has seen a reduction in establisment from 15 blokes to 12 and our turntable ladder not replaced, three rescue tenders gone. These are the things that YOU, the public need, if, God forbid, your house catches fire or you crash your car (or helicopter!), NOT vanity projects like helicopters. In around the twenty years I've been in the job, we have made use of the police helicopter a handfull of times at major fires. Always willing to assist us, and, as I've said, the RAF would help, too.

About the battery kit, it's the same size as our cutters and spreaders, but it has a battery on it, (obviously!) a bit like a power drill, and it is already carried on a couple of our station's trucks. I believe that it is only a wee bit lighter than our standard stuff. Apparantly, it is good gear, BUT, the two 'Airborne' blokes would struggle like Hell to remove a roof on their own, I have no idea if they would have stabilisation blocks to stabilise the vehicle as you really can't start to cut a casualty out without doing this first, will they carry sharps protection, if they are 'first on scene', would they do trauma care on the casualty? So, if they do, they are down to one bloke doing the job that at least a minimum of six of us would be doing. I could go on. Interestingly, our chief, I think it was, when asked about the logistics of moving equipment from the aircraft to the actual incident replied that a fire engine could go to the aircraft and pick the stuff up!!!! I really wish we, as a service, would just go back to basics and do what we do best, as can be seen in the recent floods.

ShyTorque

29th Nov 2012, 10:04

TC, I'm reading all this with interest and I agree with most of what has been said. But why do you say this:

Thirdly, JP isn't allowed below 1500 feet over a built up area

:confused:

Art of flight

29th Nov 2012, 10:31

At face value we have a guy here who is passionate about flying helicopters, wealthy, qualified,and seems to have time on his hands to do something beyond what the public purse can currently afford.

rather than the firefighting why not get in touch with those people trying to set-up the 'Childrens air ambulance' and offer a specialist 'specialist' transport service on call for a certain radius around his home? ie getting senior medical personnel from home to hospital etc?

Thomas coupling

29th Nov 2012, 10:59

Shy: You're right, the correct regs state both the 1000'rule and also the 'alight clear' rule. In practice, with a SE helo, 1500' is barely adequate over a city centre, I would suggest, from experience.
Art of Flight - thats another hire/reward scheme requiring an AOC???? Conveying doctors/med eqpmnt/organs etc is an air ambulance AOC responsibility. He couldn't do that either.

If JP is reading this: You might be well meaning but understand there are "professionally trained" operators out there who do this for a living. There is no call for ad hoc assistance on days when it is cavok, open area, outcas, SE ops.:ugh:

[email protected]

29th Nov 2012, 12:12

For f**Ks sake - longlining a fireman underneath a SE helo to do swift water rescue!!!!! Are they complete idiots???

If that is how far they have researched this project then JP should walk away right now.

There is another thread running about someone being killed after being suspended under a H369 in the States.

The mind boggles!

John R81

29th Nov 2012, 12:43

TC

Not sure why you conclude this must be "for hire or reward" and hence requires an AOC. There are other voluntary groups in UK providing both fixed and rotary wing resources to other agencies and CAA has cleared their activities as not being aerial work, not requiring commercial pilots or an AOC. Obviously this give them no breaks from the low flying rule, etc, but anything they do has to be planned to be legal and safe within those rules.

Also, just because pilot time & machine cost is given for free does not mean the pilots are inadequate in some way. In addition to the comment about hrs being more important than CPL/PPL (though as JP is CPL I am not sure why that old prjudice was dragged out and beaten-up), I know one voluntary group that has many current commercial pilots who give time generously to command their, or someone else's, aircraft. Included amongst these pilots are big tin pilots, big tin training captains, current CPL(H), ex military, ex-north sea heli and at least one ex SAR pilots. There are a number of PPL (both sort) also and typically it is the latter group that also own the aircraft and therefore take the hit for machine cost.

My view? Get off his case. He is doing something that the fire service concerned appear to want, he has CAA and other rules with which to comply, and from the posts of the only chap who is talking to him he seems to be taking things seriously and sensibly. If his planned activites are inside regulations and they are safe then "hat's off" to him. If they are no, he has so many people watching intently that he is going to fall fould of the CAA.

Of course, those with experience (and I am being serious, not sarcastic) could volunteer some valuable time with him to help set this up, get the right SOPs, etc.

I think the comment about "dedicated resource" was right - too costly. If the Police machine is doing nothing, then use that. But is it so bad to have individuals volunteering their machiens, at their own cost, to help out? Singles:- I know; but they are what individuals generally (not always) own. What if this was seen to be so useful that commercial pilots - such as yourselves - were contracted to command the flight (paid, etc) - not a full-time job but adding to the flight time and pay that you do get?

As an industry, taking a "glass-half-full" attitude and helping with this seems to me to be much more likely to bring more helicopter work into the UK.

ShyTorque

29th Nov 2012, 13:42

During three and a half decades of flying for a living I've lost over two dozen colleagues and friends. Some of the deceased were very close, including my best friend, who was doing the same job as myself at the time of his accident.

I'm deliberately not joining in the "strongly against" campaign on this subject but there's one thing I have learned always to bear in mind.

It's this: "What would the accident inquiry and/or the insurance company have to say?"

The latter is of increasing importance, irrespective of what we would like.

Hughes500

29th Nov 2012, 13:45

TC

1. Not my mate, have done 2 x LPC's over the past 2 years.
2. The rule is 1000ft and be able to alight without danger to people or property
3. You do not need to have an AOC for what he proposes to do as he is not flying for hire or reward. He is giving his time and aircraft away so he can do what he likes.
If it is classed as aerial work as long as the pilot has a cpl then under EASA he can carry pax as long as they are directly related to the task, I think max is 8 but stand to be corrected.
4. What is wrong with the fire service looking at all aspects ? JP is sensible enough to say no and already has done

Perhaps have a look at the rules / posts before posting

I am playing devils advocate here, if nothing else to have an interesting discussion. On that point if single engine is so dangerous why did the UK mil put 341's over Belfast and why do the FAA and most non European countries allow flight over built up areas ?

DOUBLE BOGEY

29th Nov 2012, 14:04

Hi CRABBY - in your last post you are starting to sound like me!! Maybe some of my uber-safety culture has rubbed off!!!

DB

SilsoeSid

29th Nov 2012, 14:56

H500
What is wrong with the fire service looking at all aspects ? JP is sensible enough to say no and already has done

Mmmm,

H500; "Ok guys Mr P spoke to me today to ask for my advice on what he had been asked to do by the Brigade, namely to use a longline under the heli with a fireman on the end, to water rescue people He was very concerned that this was not a safe thing to do and asked if I would do such a thing.."

If JP had asked JohnR81 and he told JP that they do it in other places around the world, and showed him the video found on this site, ecms Aviation Systems GmbH » Human External Cargo (http://www.ecms-gmbh.de/en/content/applications-human-external-cargo/~nm.14~nc.22/Human-External-Cargo.html) I have the sneaky suspicion that he would go with it.

Fortunately, IMHO, he didn't!

SilsoeSid

29th Nov 2012, 15:03

On that point if single engine is so dangerous why did the UK mil put 341's over Belfast

Because they were better for the job than the Scout and the Lynx wasn't in service until the '80's?

John R81

29th Nov 2012, 16:53

SS

You paint me in a bad light. Look through my posts and you would see that I would not act the way you suggest.

Are you taking side-swipes because you don't have a constructive objection, just an emotional one?

Helinut

29th Nov 2012, 17:53

Insurance is an important limitation to such "innovative hele operations".The main ones that matter are the aircraft insurance and employers' liability for the fire service.

If the underwriters are not told ahead of this "trial" they would simply walk away from any accident, if it occurred. If they were told, do you think for one moment they would be happy to insure the operations? I doubt it very much and there would certainly be a MASSIVE hike in premium. You are legally obliged to tell an insurer about anything that an insurer might want to know about that affects the risk of what they insure.

Questions about needing an AOC are (in my view) not at all certain: it is not at all certain that "gain" could be proven. However,it is undoubtedly the case that an aircraft needs to be insured to fly legally. Just having a cert of insurance does NOT make the aircraft insured, no matter what. Explicit and implied limitations exist which will render insurance invalid.

If H500 does nothing else, can I suggest he encourages JP to approach his insurer, to tell them about what is planned.

As the only helicopter aviation expertise apparently involved, JP's response to the proposition to dangle a fireman under his hele on a rope, does not give much faith in his risk management skills.

Until people have really been involved in emergency operations, it is easy for them to fail to understand that there is a fundamental difference between the heroic actions of a person who gets involved in an ad-hoc rescue by chance AND the person or organisation who plans to get involved in emergency work.

The ad-hoc rescuer is rightly applauded for taking substantial risks to save a life (generally so long as the rescuer is the only one exposed to risks).

If the emergency organisation planned to respond in the same way they would be heavily criticised and likely to be held to blame if things went wrong.

homonculus

29th Nov 2012, 18:02

As a doctor the last thing I need is an offer of a lift from Mr P. As with all doctors I am required to live within 10 miles of my hospital so Mr P won't have checked his tail rotor before I am in theatre, and anyhow I work there in the day so the only time I need a lift is in the dark.

As a specialist in working on road traffic accidents for 20 years I have never needed any US cutting gear. The normal stuff is fine.

And most importantly I need the fire commander on the ground with me not 2000 feet above.

The London Fire Brigade seriously looked at a dedicated helicopter some 12 years ago, using a 117 we had been trialing previously. I was told it was a failure even in central London where senior officer access, tall buildings etc might be an issue.

I often see wealthy benefactors desperate to help hospitals. One of the most difficult issues is to direct their money where it is needed not where they think it is needed. Given that this is most likely the case here, Mr P needs wise council from a senior fire officer but not the understandable slagging he is getting here

Helinut

29th Nov 2012, 18:14

hn,

The trouble here (if you believe what we are told)is that the senior fire officer is the one who is in La-La land.

SilsoeSid

29th Nov 2012, 19:32

Sorry if there's any confusion JohnR81

I re-read this thread each time I find something interesting and although initially you seemed to follow suit, your recent post of;

My view? Get off his case. He is doing something that the fire service concerned appear to want, he has CAA and other rules with which to comply, and from the posts of the only chap who is talking to him he seems to be taking things seriously and sensibly. If his planned activites are inside regulations and they are safe then "hat's off" to him. If they are no, he has so many people watching intently that he is going to fall fould of the CAA.

...seems to fully support the idea of continuing with the planned activities.

I'm sure that most of us on seing the request of "using a longline under the heli with a fireman on the end, to water rescue people", said something along the lines of clucking bell. I just got the impression from your post that you may suggest to go ahead as it had been done elsewhere.

Apologies if this was misinterpreted :ouch:

ShyTorque

29th Nov 2012, 20:38

The suspension of a person under the aircraft on a rope would need a specific CAA permission in any case; it's not something to be attempted just because someone asks. Knowing the CAA stance on singles, I doubt it would be allowed in any planned circumstances.

There was a certain pilot who was prosecuted by the CAA because someone accidentally became entangled in the USL gear after load pick up. First thing the pilot knew about it was when the same "hooker up" appeared underneath the helicopter at the drop site, unhooking the underslung load.

TRC

29th Nov 2012, 21:26

The suspension of a person under the aircraft on a rope would need a specific CAA permission in any case

Very true.
I've been involved with doing it a few times in the UK in a UK reg machine. We had to be an ME with either SSE at all times or, more likely, flyaway once the "load" had been landed and cut away. We didn't use the SACRU although we could have done with a secondary safety device (send a stamped adressed postcard for details).

All approved by the CAA of course. Not recommended under a single though.

A million years ago, we had CAA permission to carry a trapeze artist on a long line under a 47 - he wasn't attached so it was kind of irrelevent if the engine had quit - he could have fallen off anyway - those were the days *sighs*...

John R81

30th Nov 2012, 08:52

SS No worries.:O

I think nothing like this would happen without CAA etc all being happy - i.e. legal and safe.

[email protected]

30th Nov 2012, 12:56

DB - only a teeny weeny bit:ok:

thedandyfireman

30th Nov 2012, 16:20

SilsoeSid - "I'm sure that most of us on seing the request of "using a longline under the heli with a fireman on the end, to water rescue people", said something along the lines of clucking bell."

Funnily enough, that was my reaction, and the reaction of the watch when told! Along with 'Cluck off'.........

cockney steve

1st Dec 2012, 10:32

Locally, the ambulance service(Greater Manchester) use those big white modified commercial vehicles with loads of kit and lights and sirens and two crew and loads of risk assessments and other stuff.
They also have Volvo estates (NOT the biggest one) one man and a bit of kit,bells whistles and jam-butty stripes.
Then they have MOTORCYCLES........so how the fxxk does that work?..... some sort of Tardis-feature in the panniers that it can carry all the kit that an ambulance carries?

Of course not! depending on circumstances, the car or M/Cyc. can arrive long before the "meat-wagon" , Assess and perhaps stabilise the patient and thereby "stretch" the "Golden hour" thereby SAVING LIVES.

Also, a revelation to many, a fair proportion of the ambulances and crews are run by part-time volunteers (St. John Ambulance ) No longer do they buy castoffs ,but new kit, fully trained personnel and these people are the equal of the full-timers directly employed regulars and are treated equally.

the same considerations "could" apply to the "volunteer heli service"
I don't think anyone's suggesting they'll ever take the place of a multi-million pound fully equipped dedicated machine, but as with the motorcycle , many a housefire has been put out with a saucepan or garden hose.

Anyone remember the cops poncing about at a 3 foot deep lake whilst a kiddy drowned?..... same mindset appears here on this thread, certain posters appear to be so brainwashed by institutionalised ar5e covering, they've forgotten to think constructively.

Sone of the wilder flights of fancy are obvious non-starters...as for remote surveillance, there are many R/C helo cameraship operators in the USA.....in the case of a RTA, the model can be up, transmitting live TV and taking high-quality stills, whilst the full-size is still in transit.

Don't be arrogant and dismiss the "volunteers" out of hand!....have you ever stopped to think, " who trained the professionals, where did the trainers learn?"
Empirical knowledge or self-appointed "experts" that's how!

Sit down, analyse and collate and suddenly you have a professional framework.....add all the back -covering and then Nero starts fiddling whilst Rome burns.

Of course this is all total crap, 'cos after all, I'm not a professional, so therefore don't know what i'm talking about.

ShyTorque

1st Dec 2012, 16:31

Cockney Steve,

I don't think any of the contributors to this thread would hesitate for one second to do whatever it took to rescue someone if it was possible at the time, and some already have. Unfortunately, a single, spur of the moment, risky/lucky/courageous act is one thing. Planning to achieve a rescue by helicopter is a different matter and needs a proper risk assessment and the proper equipment and training for it to be acceptable.

I once turned down a "spur of the moment" SAR mission in a police helicopter in very severe weather (night, heavy snowfall and thick fog) because I knew the risk to the aircraft was too great. The likelihood of finding, let alone rescuing, the lost persons was unlikely because the search area was enormous, there wasn't even a known start point. At that stage it wasn't even certain that the persons needed rescuing, but it was known that they were well equipped to stay out overnight. I was strongly criticised at the time by the control room supervisor, a senior policeman. He tried to call out another police helicopter from a neighbouring force and then RAF Search and Rescue. Both declined the job, for exactly the same reasons as myself. The following day, the lost persons walked out of the hills, fit, healthy, totally unharmed and happy and returned home, blissfully unaware that a rescue mission was even being considered.

Had I flown the mission and had an accident, (and with three persons on board as against two "survivors"), who would have been held responsible? Not the senior policeman, not the "survivors".....just me.

Sometimes we shouldn't try to learn from scratch from our own mistakes, we should learn from the experience of others. Sometimes that involves saying NO! :)

CkH6uPBPymY

Hughes500

1st Dec 2012, 16:49

SS

Not sure if it was my eyesight but didnt see an earthing line, although I have never done anything like that I have had belts from a longlining 500's when my turn to hook up loads, dont normally use an earth line keeps the ground crew on their toes, plus dont get a huge belt, different in a BK117 I am syre

SilsoeSid

1st Dec 2012, 16:59

The saying I remind myself of, goes something like:

'The secret to flying is not knowing how to fly, it's knowing when not to'.

:ok:

Hughes500

1st Dec 2012, 17:01

Helinut
My apologies just read your post, he is insured apparantly !
I am struggling to see an advantage in a human on a line to your cargo hook, can only assume it is for machine that dont have a winch and therefore is a last resort ! Would need to be pretty good as a longline pilot !
Just out of interst would you need CAA permission to pick up a human, after all you dont need permission to pick up a load on a hook ?

Sir Niall Dementia

1st Dec 2012, 17:13

Its Saturday night; I've just finished flying and above my desk are several feet of shelf space taken up by huge manuals all telling me various bits of my job, which is flying paying punters from one landing site to another (be it a hotel garden or Heathrow) I've flown SAR, offshore, ambulance and corporate and the common thing to all of them is the manuals. While they are also handy for propping open the office door on hot days and acting as an impromptu conference table they all tell me what to do and how to go about it. For an operation such as Mr P wants to carry out I would expect the manual with all the exemptions in it to be massive, and I for one would dearly like to know what the inhabitants of the Belgrano think of this idea, and whether he has applied for the exemptions.

On page one of this thread I commented on private owners and poor planning. Mr Paxton before you seek any more publicity sit down and discuss seriously with Hughes500 what you really want out of this, because CPL holder or not the moment you overstep the bounds under pressure from a fire chief dealing with a major emergency there are people employed in the Belgrano who will put you in a vice and squeeze until you squeak, a lot.

In the back of the mind of any pilot who flies for any emergency service is always the thought "its my responsibility and I may have to say NO at some point." It used to be called the big boys' decision, it is trained into the people who work in that type of flying and is designed to save the lives of them and their crew. Learning emergency flying by yourself, on the job is foolish, and the bit about "I did it to save lives" may not work too well in the subsequent enquiry. I believe that the bit about actions for the purpose of saving life (and I'm b:mad::mad::mad:ered if I can find it in the ANO right now) applies only when it is an immediate action required then and there, not when you are sitting at home waiting for the call to launch the emergency fire putter-outer helicopter, that, like police and HEMs will require a long and interesting exemption list.

Or do you really just want some extra brownie points for you planning application?

SND

Thomas coupling

1st Dec 2012, 17:20

Cockney: Hey buddy, welcome to my word of the year: PRAT. Here try it on...it suits you.
First, I suspect and pray and hope you aren't a member of the emergency services because you'd be a very poor rep for that industry if you were.
Like you and any other member of the public, We don't expect a collapsible stretcher to appear out of the motorcycle panniers either, now would we? :ok:
Oh, and where is the rider hiding that oxygen bottle - little tinker:=
No - "normal" people understand that motorcycle paramedics (and certainly NOT part time St John's bloody ambulance riders) occasioanlly arrive that little bit earlier than the big white van because they can negotiate traffic a "little" better (not much) because those blue lights on the meat wagon make mince meat of traffic anyway. AND when they get there (on those rare occasions a little earlier), they normally only have time to assess the situation ready for the meat wagon to arrive. They may deliver the odd drug or bandage, or even do some CPR and/or defibs but that's about it me old.
I can only speak for The Wales Ambulance Service but I dont recall either the driver of said ambulances ("technician") or most certainly not the other crew member: the "paramedic" being part time St John's Ambulance volunteers:eek::eek::eek: I think you'll find a monstrous/cavernous difference between the former and the latter in terms of quals and also legal liabilities to deliver certain drugs.
Now for the funniest of them all - the remote surveillance bit. Question for you? Assume the UAV needs line of sight control and the RTC (RTA went out of use about 10yrs ago Cockney (so you're def. not a cop)) is, say, 10 or 15 miles away, who is going to get there first, the police chopper or the guy with the RC model and hand held controller in the back of his police BMW weaving through traffic, and then having to find somewhere to launch it close enough to commence ops in line of sight of the RTC?

[Thank goodness you've arrived officer, we need urgent assistance, I think someone is trapped in a burning vehicle: "Erm excuse me madam, you are preventing me from launching my RC helicopter to film said RTC - kindly return to your (burning) vehicle and assistance will be along in a moment"].

Volunteers are ALWAYS welcome, but hear this. They need / cost extra resources because they have to be separately herded/controlled as they are unfamiliar with the local terrain. They, in themselves, whilst offering up their hard earned free time, become an additional risk and a real professional has to be diverted from his/her duties to safeguard these willing few to keep them safe too. This is the case with mountain rescues / the case with the missing girl in Machynlleth recently / the case with SkyWatch / the case with 7/7. Well meaning helicopter pilots (professionals in their own right) turn up full of vigour and enthusiasm, at the wrong separation height, wrong frequency / landing in the wrong area / blowing evidence everywhere / not keeping a close watch on other aerial support / inadvertently entering CAS / TRA's.........need I go on.

Now which of the emergency services do you fit into then Cockers me old?:}

Hughes 500: I wonder if subconsiously you are morally supporting your (not) buddy. I think you may prefer NOT to slap the loose cannon down but instead, massage his ego - indirectly of course. You seem to be advertising your wares as an examiner of other helo mortals and should as a consequence be very familiar, not only with the rules but also with the capabilities that choppers have to offer. You might even be lucky or savvy enough to have completed a Human Factor based course, albeit CRM or other related subject. The man needs telling - he needs a one way conversation. But I suspect you may pander to his wallet for future business blah blah.

Oh, nearly forgot, I dealt with aviation insurance companies for years during my 14 years a sa chief pilot for a police unit. If coppers think they know how to deal with crooks, you should read the small print on any insurance policy never mind that covering emergency operations. It is still IMPOSSIBLE to get cover for certain "activities" whilst operating aerial vehicles. ONE such example is for SE helos to KNOWINGLY remain insdie the dead man's curve. If JP stoofs whilst hovering at 100' over a factory in the middle of birmingham, because his pax is the chief fire guru for the W Mids, his Insurance company are going to walk away from that subsequent payout buddy, including the tens of millions he will be sued for after landing in a shopping mall car park.

I think this is what happened:

JP, another Q for you from all the dissenters on PPrune? Oh, what the fu*k now Hughesy? Are you insured bud? Yep -course I am, I told them I'm painting my cab bright red, changing my HISL's to red and swinging my hose underneath my belly over the city at night.
Oh, OK JP, sorry to trouble you - I'll pass it on. :uhoh:

Hughes500

1st Dec 2012, 17:21

SND

Worringly I dont actually think he needs any exemptions form The Belgrano" as i cant put a finger on any rule that would be broken. Very happy to eat humble pie here
I agree with the manuals though having both AOC and TRTO manuals and shortly ATO manuals for PPL and "sports NPL "as well as SMS manuals it does make me wonder !!!!:sad:

Sir Niall Dementia

1st Dec 2012, 17:34

Hughes;

He'd definately need a couple From rule 5.
Probably some odds and sods from the Dangerous Goods rules.
The way he's going half a dozen from training requirements.
Possibly one or two dealing with mods and role changes on aircraft.
An appendix 7 "Self Auth Congested Area" clearance.

Thats for starters, at that rate he might as well go and get an AOC and then the CAA will tell him "none of this in a single mate; twins only."

Personally I love the idea, but then I've always loved daft ideas:ok:

SND

thedandyfireman

1st Dec 2012, 17:56

By Cockney - 'Also, a revelation to many, a fair proportion of the ambulances and crews are run by part-time volunteers (St. John Ambulance ) No longer do they buy castoffs ,but new kit, fully trained personnel and these people are the equal of the full-timers directly employed regulars and are treated equally.'

Ha!!!! I'd wager a fair few State Registered paramedics, Technician's and ECA's would put up a good argument with you there!!!! Thomas Coupling has answered your points very well, but I'll add a few. I've only had one dealing with the Johnnies, at an RTC, and they were that bad with a casualty with c-spine pain, I took over, and I'm 'only' a Trauma Medic. Both of them had a load of pips on their shoulders too. Sure, I'll bet that some are good, but, the programme 'Party Paramedics', which followed them around at a festival was hilarious, with Johnnies straight out of Central Casting!! Walting Wannabes a lot of them I'm afraid. Well meaning, but not a patch on a trained professional. Incidently, RRV's, (cars and motorbikes), and Community Responders were only introduced to 'stop the clock' so that ambulance services can meet their govt. targets. As soon as one of these are on scene, the clock stops. Sad but true. You're not in the Johnnies yourself, are you? It would explain a bit.;) This isn't a couple of your 'Fully Trained' volunteers is it?:ok:

Stretcher Fail - YouTube

Thomas coupling

1st Dec 2012, 18:18

Dandy: beautiful :D

ShyTorque

1st Dec 2012, 18:22

Re the dope on a rope:

Just out of interst would you need CAA permission to pick up a human, after all you dont need permission to pick up a load on a hook ?

Worringly I dont actually think he needs any exemptions form The Belgrano" as i cant put a finger on any rule that would be broken.

Try CAP393, ANGRs Part 17.

handysnaks

1st Dec 2012, 21:18

Regarding exemptions in the ANO 'for the purpose of saving life'. I believe this phrase is only to be found in artcles 128, 129 & 130. Which refer to the dropping of articles, people & parachutists. The general exemptions to rule 5 (which I think are rule 6). Do not include any exemptions for saving life.

homonculus

2nd Dec 2012, 18:03

Cockney Steve

I think you have had your answer, but the real reason for bikes and cars is

1 the ambulance services have to meet stringent time limits in responding to 999 calls. The clock is stopped by the arrival of the first responder. If they fail to meet these times they are fined massive amounts

In Buckinghamshire the ambulance service uses midwives and even first aides to respond to rural calls. As long as they are tasked by the service they can stop the clock. I think a Mr A Blair was the person behind those so called targets

2. The NHS is so strapped for cash we have fewer and fewer ambulances.

I won't respond to your comments about St Johns Ambulance volunteers. You are just completely and utterly wrong

Hughes500

3rd Dec 2012, 07:55

TC

Not pandering to my wallet, quite frankly I charged him £ 300 to do his LPC this included £ 110 for a 6 hour return train journey plus 45 mins at my end twice,plus £ 18 to park the car, if that is pandering to my wallet I am in the wrong job. Quite frankly I would prefer to be in the loop I can temper some of what he wants to do with some advice, but I cant stop him. Would you prefer I have nothing to do with him ? Would that improve the situation ?
PS I really dont need to advertise on this forum or any where else:p
I still dont see what rules he is breaking if he does what he says
1. Recce of particular sites
2. Transporting specialist cutting gear

As long as he is not in a congested area he can do as he pleases, he isnt even breaking an aviation law by landing on someone elses property so doesnt need any exemption. As long as he doesnt break the 500 ft rule then I cant see a problem. Only runs into difficulty if he works in a congested area, mind you most of The CAA rules are open to interpretation.

Hughes500

3rd Dec 2012, 08:06

Shy

I dont think that that section covers it as it is to do with dropping. I read into that you have to release yourself from the ac ie jump out or be dropped. If you have a dope on the rope you are not droppig him you are landing him on the ground ! However you may not be able to pick him up or land him without an exemption from rule 5 1 d within 500 ft ( might have the ref wrong) unless the ac lands as well. had this with longlining and ground crew. caa view is that the ac hasnt landed if the hook touches the ground, has to be part of the ac, hence need the exemption from rule 5 for longlining

Thomas coupling

3rd Dec 2012, 12:30

Hughes500: are you based in the UK????

Let's regroup and refresh:
Your bud wants to help the fire brigade by ferrying troops and or equipment - right? Does he also want to be able to carry the big cheese fire chief above the fire to get a gods eye view of things? Does he want to carry and deliver specialist equipment? Does he want to go further and douse the fire with his bucket?

Unleee he is fighting a fire in a shed in a field or a forest fire, he won't be of any use will he? Most "fires" that cause concern and/or require 'additional' resources like your friends chopper, are inside built up areas - buildings/factories, whatever. His services are very nearly NIL hovering above 500 feet in that case, unless he has a FLIR ball on board.
Any lower than that and he infringes the RULES. Landing in unsurveyed sites requires minimum dimensions and permission from the owner - more RULES.

Operating as an emergency services vehicle requires ME. More RULES.
Secondly, much of the firefighting equipment he may be required to carry could have cartridges fitted. They could include gas cannisters. He would have to comply with the Dangerous Goods Act. More RULES.

Dropping articles from an aircraft (water/equipment/people). More RULES.

Apart from these minor distractions he doesn't have any worries then?

I still feel that you haven't got a grip of the situation (the situation being that a non AOC operator will not be allowed to do any of this). CAA rules are NOT open to interpretation - believe that and you're on short finals for an interview with the CPS :eek:
This is a non starter - you "should" know that, enough people here have explained the pitfalls but you still go away umming and ahhing, fumbling around the edges of the law/rules/legislation.

Take him round the back of his helipad and stick his head under the water for a few minutes, slap him around a bit and tell him to WAKE UP.:mad:

ShyTorque

3rd Dec 2012, 12:38

Hughes 500,

We as individuals can interpret the rules as we wish in our own minds but what really matters is how the CAA interpret them. Did you read what I posted about the CAA prosecution of a pilot who inadvertently transported a worker under his helicopter? I wasn't making it up, it occurred at this time of year whilst Christmas trees were being moved as USLs. I know the company involved and also the pilot who was prosecuted.

This is the section of CAP393 I referred to:

Towing, picking up and raising of persons and articles
128 (1) Subject to the provisions of this article, an aircraft in flight must not, by means external to the aircraft, tow any article, other than a glider, or pick up or raise any person, animal or article, unless:
(a) there is a certificate of airworthiness issued or rendered valid for that aircraft under the law of the country in which the aircraft is registered; and
(b) that certificate or the flight manual for the aircraft includes an express provision that it may be used for that purpose.

Would the Fire Services be able to insure an employee flying as an underslung-ee? Would any firemen volunteer? If no volunteers were forthcoming, would the Fire Service be able to insist that their employees allowed themselves to be transported as underslung loads by an untrained, non-professional pilot? I think I can predict the stance of the unions.

Sir Niall Dementia

3rd Dec 2012, 13:52

Shy;

You've just (probably inadvertantly) hit one big nail on the head when you described him as an "untrained, non-professional pilot"

He holds a CPL (which country I have no idea) BUT he has never operated in a professional role. As far as any of us can tell he has never had to look beyond the basic exams and flight tests, with none of the training required of professionals to use the aircraft as a tool to do a job, and how you achieve that job working within current legislation.

He's already upset CAA with a breach of Rule 5 (Rule 5e) and that is a basic bit of knowledge dinned into any new CPL who is flying for a living.
The rules may on occasion be an ass, but ignorance of them is no defence.

I bet there's a team of former pro's sitting in Flight ops at the Belgrano laughing their socks off over this, biding their time until they think enough is enough, and that its time for a chat with both Mr Paxton and the fire chief concerned.

In the meantime we can all continue to speculate, after all that's what we're all here for isn't it?

SND

ShyTorque

3rd Dec 2012, 14:43

You've just (probably inadvertantly) hit one big nail on the head when you described him as an "untrained, non-professional pilot"

Sir Niall, speaking as an ex Military QHI. ex-SAR captain and ex-police/casevac chief pilot, who has also worked with the Fire Service on a number of occasions, it might not have been totally inadvertent.... ;)

chopjock

3rd Dec 2012, 15:31

TC

Landing in unsurveyed sites requires minimum dimensions and permission from the owner - more RULES.Landing on private land without permission is no concern of the CAA.

Dropping articles from an aircraft (water/equipment/people) dropping equipment/people from an aircraft?

I think you are over stretching your point of view there a little.

Hughes500

3rd Dec 2012, 17:00

TC

You are right on everything you have said
By the way you do not need permission to drop water from a helicopter, speak to Keith Thomas ( about to retire)from The CAA if you dont believe me.

Shy
I stand corrected on lowering etc etc of humans, as you have pointed me to a different part of The ANO

To you both I have shown my reservations, TC in particular I dont actually think you read any of my posts that thoroughly. As it will obviously make you feel better I wont try and talk to him or advise against the things he wants to do, perhaps if you PM me I will send you his e mail address and you can spend your time going through things with him.

Thomas coupling

3rd Dec 2012, 18:05

Oh damn, don't go Hughesy, I'm just getting cosy. ChopJock has returnedand hopefully nigelh will 'pop' in later.
Damn - that means this thread will wither now.
Thanks for the opportunity though. If you need love and support here on pprune, you know who to talk to. Say hello to JP :ok:

ShyTq: That's my background - go find someone else's to use!

ShyTorque

3rd Dec 2012, 18:23

TC, OK, I would have included the rest but I decided not to, as it's not directly relevant...... :E

500e

5th Dec 2012, 16:30

Private aerial rescue group takes off - Daily Inter Lake: Local/Montana (http://www.dailyinterlake.com/news/local_montana/article_d2c8eef2-3e79-11e2-a7f3-001a4bcf887a.html)
Not quite the same but :E

SilsoeSid

5th Dec 2012, 16:50

500ePrivate aerial rescue group takes off - Daily Inter Lake: Local/Montana
Not quite the same but :E

Absolutely 500e, not quite the same as our rich bloke and a few mates....

"Sheriff Chuck Curry is a critical care paramedic, pilot, aircraft owner, and spent twenty-six years working on the ALERT helicopter while also serving as the undersheriff of Flathead County. Undersheriff Jordan White is an emergency medical technician, pilot, aircraft owner, and spent three years as the search and rescue coordinator for the sheriff’s office. They both have backgrounds in special weapons and tactics and have managed critical incidents all over Flathead County as well as assisting surrounding jurisdictions. Jim Pierce, owner of Red Eagle Aviation, partnered with the sheriff’s office several years ago to facilitate the launch of our aviation program. He has dedicated his helicopter, experience, and resources to prove the efficiency of a more proactive aviation response program. The directors and members understand the importance of prompt response and the risk involved in complicated emergency operations."
http://embracefear.com/press/Aviation%20program%20-%20FINAL.pdf

Oh, and one thing not mentioned here yet,
F.E.A.R is an approved 501c3 tax-exempt organization. :suspect:
F.E.A.R. (http://embracefear.com)

Sir Niall Dementia

5th Dec 2012, 17:02

Shy/TC;

Nigelh and Chopjock are being very quiet; spooky isn't it?
:\

SND

Hughes500

5th Dec 2012, 17:39

As they have special weapons and tatics experience does that mean i should invite JP to get a MELB (Mission Enhanced Little Bird) instead of his normal 500 E. Now with nearly an extra 2000 lbs lift capability over his E model he could do many more things, perhaps undersling a thunderbirds pod with TB 4 in it for flood rescue ?:ok:

TRC

5th Dec 2012, 18:24

....undersling a thunderbirds pod with TB 4 in it ....
Yeah, and the Firefly obviously..

Oh, and the Mole for mine and pothole rescue.

Ah, don't forget the 60-odd ton capacity, 150mph trio of remote control skates in case of undercarriage failure of an exotic new airliner.

If we're going to do it, we might as well do it properly.

nigelh

5th Dec 2012, 22:29

Mr Dementia ... You make it look like Shy and TC are a couple ....not sure how they would feel about that :eek: I have actually been away the last few weeks flying SAR in the Indian Oceon ( illegally of course ) ....... I was thinking of offering my 109 for the built up area jobs but I don't work for nothing .... Maybe you could fly it for me TC , or are you now too old for single pilot ops ???!!!

SilsoeSid

5th Dec 2012, 23:51

Nigelh
Maybe you could fly it for me TC , or are you now too old for single pilot ops ???!!!

There's an upper age limit for this sort of thing?:E

Hughes500

6th Dec 2012, 06:43

TRC

Good point, well brought out. I think we could cover that by having a fleet of MELB's being flown by other wealthy pilots !

Pink Panther

9th Dec 2012, 08:18

I see Sky News are running a piece on this, this morning. Sorry, can't provide a link. The title is .... Air support for firefighters :ok:

JTobias

9th Dec 2012, 09:05

All,

Tycoon's Plan To Fight Fires From The Air (http://news.sky.com/story/1022784/tycoons-plan-to-fight-fires-from-the-air)

Joel

toptobottom

9th Dec 2012, 10:07

Nice way to demonstrate breach of Rule 5 at 1.07 :}

FairWeatherFlyer

9th Dec 2012, 10:34

From sky news:

But Tam McFarlane from the Fire Brigades Union is not supportive of the idea: "The public rely entirely on a professional fire and rescue service so we have to be accountable to the public. Accountable financially to the public as well.

I'm not sure, that's accurate. A friend of mine wanted to volunteer a while ago. A trivial internet search turns up examples of volunteer services (Peterborough).

The RNLI (http://www.rnli.org/) is a good example of what can be done with volunteers. It's just a question of committment, selection and training, isn't it? There's certainly a decent number of retired, skilled baby boomers around who need to do something. The National Trust (http://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/) can't take them all :)

And homonculus addresses the need/requirement, but there's there two parts to this, donating money and donating time. The evolution (revival?) of CSR (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_social_responsibility) means that the latter is also becoming far more common in small quantities.

I often see wealthy benefactors desperate to help hospitals. One of the most difficult issues is to direct their money where it is needed not where they think it is needed. Given that this is most likely the case here, Mr P needs wise council from a senior fire officer but not the understandable slagging he is getting here

Sir Niall Dementia

9th Dec 2012, 16:26

The head of Wiltshire Fire service really needs to read these pages. He speaks of Mr P's expertise in the area, and doesn't realise that neither the aircraft, or the pilot are right for the task.

As for the fly past, well done Mr P, I hope you had Rule 5 clearance for that. I'm afraid you've gone from nice bloke, good idea, needs a lot more thought and planning, to buffoon in my eyes.

FWF made a very pertinent comment when he discussed selection and training, flying for any emergency service needs a cool head and an ability to issue a forthright NO when pushed beyond the limits of sense or safety.

SND

chopjock

9th Dec 2012, 20:13

Nice way to demonstrate breach of Rule 5 at 1.07

well done Mr P, I hope you had Rule 5 clearance for that.

I'm not sure you need a rule 5 exemption to fly past your own land site.:rolleyes:

ShyTorque

9th Dec 2012, 21:16

I'm not sure you need a rule 5 exemption to fly past your own land site.

Priceless, absolutely priceless! :hmm:

SilsoeSid

10th Dec 2012, 00:04

chopjockI'm not sure you need a rule 5 exemption to fly past your own land site. :rolleyes:

chopjock in airlaw class

WTF was he doing, a run and break? :ugh:

Tycoon's Plan To Fight Fires From The Air - YouTube

Gotta love the badges on the flying suit!!!

Any rumour that he has applied for vehicle (blue light) dispensations, for 'emergency' use?

SilsoeSid

10th Dec 2012, 00:54

So, despite the title of the Sky report and all the other hype, the title of this thread is the reality of the proposal. Ferrying not fighting!

What I don't understand is, on the Wiltshire Fire Service website it tells us;
Wiltshire Fire & Rescue Service use this (http://www.wiltsfire.gov.uk/About_Us/Brigade_Appliances/appliance_pages/physical_resources_appliances_sabre.htm) as their standard front line fire engine, therefore it is normally the first appliance to arrive at an incident. Due to this fact it was designed to deliver the maximum number of firefighters to an incident in the shortest time, with the versatility to be able to cope with the variety of incidents that make up modern day firefighting. With this in mind, it is not surprising to find that the Dennis Sabre is the fastest appliance in the FRS's fleet, able to reach any urban area within 10 minutes and any rural area within 20 minutes.

Yet on the Sky News page it tells us;
... it can take fire crews over an hour to reach the most remote parts of Wiltshire.

3 days a week - "3 minute standby to launch, fly to Trowbridge Fire Station, pick up 'staff and equipment' and take them to anywhere within the county in under 16 minutes."

So, shout given, 3 mins to launch, fly from Lower Mills Estate to Trowbridge (25 miles - 15 mins) load up kit & pax 10 mins!, fly to incident max 16 mins.

Have I missed something?
Wiltshire Fire & Rescue can get to any incident in the county within 20 minutes, Thunderbirds make it in 44 mins, as long as everything goes smoothly.

Anyway, this is the Trowbridge station/landing site;
http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g11/silsoesid/trowbridge.png

[email protected]

10th Dec 2012, 03:40

Earlier on in this thread I just thought he was a prat:ugh:

Gordy

10th Dec 2012, 04:25

Crab...

Earlier on in this thread I just thought he was a prat

For once we agree... although I suspect we agree on more issues than we disagree upon... But lets not ruin the fun and admit it..... ;) :cool: :)

Hughes500

10th Dec 2012, 07:38

SS

You have missed something ! The film shows his pad on the Thames at Reading, so I think you need to add a bit more time on to get to Trowbridge.
I would think the following for a time appreciation, assuming the ac has had a check A first thing and an internal systems check
To start up and get a 500 in the air if it is first start then you have a 2 minute oil stabilisation before engine run up, so you would have to allow 4 minutes from getting in to actually being airbourne ( thats very quick)
Reading to Trowbridge at 120 kts about 50nm or 25 mins
recce and land at Trowbridge ( not that you are allowed to at station) 3 mins
So at the very best we have a time of 32 minutes before he has gone anywhere let alone the time to stop what you are doing and get to the machine
As i told him nice idea in an ideal world but doesnt really work !:hmm:

nigelh

10th Dec 2012, 08:23

There have been numerous incidents where the dervices arrive and do not have the correct equipment . One example was the man drowning in a pond ( 3ft deep ) where the Police didnt have the correct badges , then the paramedic didnt have a wet suit . They stood and waited for 40 mins for the correctly dressed and trained policeman . He the walked out to pronounce the guy ...dead . I can see some times where he could take smaller equipment and a specialist to the scene . ( Maybe not often )
However to me the best service he has done for the country is to give a lot of us a lovely time watching the likes of TC,s moustache bristling with indignation at a non military God entering his domain :D:D As for the flying suit i thought it was lovely . Quite trendy , nipped in at the waist with a good air of authority about it .....just lacking a bit of scrambled egg on the shoulders .

Hughes500

10th Dec 2012, 08:28

Nigel

I hope you are not taking the michael out of crab:eek:Personally I dont think the suit suits him, I will make sure that at his next LPC I will bring it to his attention. He will ask one of his mates Donatella Versace to design him a new one:)

SilsoeSid

10th Dec 2012, 08:52

Morning H500,

The report says;

"From April, he will be on call three days per week at the 550-acre Lower Mill Estate of holiday homes in Cirencester - which he owns,

If his services are required, he is capable of being airborne in three minutes."

I'd like to think that if JP is 'on duty from a certain time, the ac would be all Check A'd and had the oil stabilisation run completed before the first call was likely to come in.

In the back of my mind i wonder what would happen if a call came in a few minutes early, perhaps while he is doing the Check A or before it was day. What if a call comes in close to sunset or the weather is marginal but the job isn't too far away, lives at risk, children involved! By virtue if the meaning, an emergency occurs when you least expect or need it to.

I mainly worry about the immense pressure JP will be under, not only to prove to the fire service and to 'us' that he can do it, but also to the other millionaire pilots waiting in the wings, family and friends. What better table talk than to be called away during the middle of Sunday dinner!

There also seems to me, to be a bit of wool being pulled, judging by the words of the fire chief in the video. I am aware that JP is qualified to fly the buckets and actually fight the fires if the Thunderbird project ever gets that far.....so what expertise is he bringing to the show when all he is doing is ferrying staff and equipment, equipment that sounds like DAC?

As for the other pilots that will join the show, what is their expertise?

This type of job, as it is being portrayed, also calls for you to put yourself in a certain frame of mind. Separate from your 'normal' goings on or surroundings. Being based at his normal place of work, with normal things going on or client popping in with problems doesn't allow for that, which is IMHO, a bloody huge wedge of the old cheesey slice.

Who'd have known that I'd have a flat battery this morning?
Totally messes up this mornings plans and puts your thoughts elsewhere, but I'm not on duty today so hey ho! Best I get the kettle on for when the assistance person arrives.

SilsoeSid

10th Dec 2012, 10:12

Morning Nigelh,
Don't let the facts get in the way of a good story now will you :rolleyes:

Oh, and if JP wants anything on his shoulders, I'm sure you have a few chips he could borrow :ok:

Sir Niall Dementia

10th Dec 2012, 11:48

Is it just me, or is everyone else waiting for Chopc**k to tell us he sees nothing wrong with that fire station as a landing site?

Chopc**k, take a look at ANO Rule 6 ii. I don't see any mention there of wazzing for the cameras having any form of exemption from "normal aviation practise, or air taxiing." Certainly there are plenty of persons, vehicles, VESSELS and structures along the bit of the Thames he was flying down.

SND

Thomas coupling

10th Dec 2012, 14:10

Damn, damn and treble damn....damn damn damn..
I wasn't coming back to this load of tripe, but:
(a) That video says it all, and,
(b) chopjock and nigeJ are back (I've promoted nigeH to J).

The video only goes to drive home that JP is so far up his own backside, the lights have gone out. I bet NO-ONE is prepared to confront this egotist for fear of losing their customer/sponsor. In the 21st century, when someone stumbles across something like this, where JP "discovers" the fire service has no airborne support, one would have thought: Mmm, now there's a very good reason for this. No, not buddy boy here, he thinks: No-one has thought of this, Eureka!

ChopJock: I'm suspicious. No-one is as stupid as you in the aviation world, no-one. You have to be a stooge.

NigelJ: Are you chopjock?

Now go away thread - be gone!:mad:

chopjock

10th Dec 2012, 14:39

Chopc**k, take a look at ANO Rule 6 ii. I don't see any mention there of wazzing for the cameras having any form of exemption from "normal aviation practise, or air taxiing.

Been there, done it. The campaign has, on more than one occasion, investigated complaints of me low flying, and not just at my own site.

It boils down to how a judge might interpret "normal aviation practice"

I would have argued my case that it is normal to "go around if I want", whilst practicing to land and take off etc.

You don't actually HAVE to land you know.

They took no further action on each occasion.

nigelh

10th Dec 2012, 15:34

I would never be rude to Crab , didnt you know ...were like brothers now :ok:
Silsoe ......With your reference to chips .....alongside referring to Sunday Lunch as "Dinner" i presume you come from the sort of stock more likely to have chips .....:rolleyes: I think you will find that what you call "tea" or your "evening meal " is actually Dinner . Anyway thats enough education for you for the time being . As for myself i have flown commercially for others and now fly for myself in my own machines and dont need to tell you which one i prefer !!!! For my money he is a hero .....he rises the blood pressure of the stuffed shirts amongst us superbly and makes even a dull day amusing . Carry on the good work i say :D:D

toptobottom

10th Dec 2012, 17:10

...so far up his own backside, the lights have gone out
So oblivious to the irony; hilarious!! :D

Chopjock - nice try, but there isn't a judge in the land who would accept JP's ~100kt, < 50' flypast video as a 'normal aviation practice' pre-landing recce! :ugh:

Hughes500

10th Dec 2012, 18:44

SSid

agree entirely with what you say, there is only so much I can do ! Have told him in no uncertain terms what I think of some aspects of what he is doing.
You have toched on the pressure of captaincy which is the biggest problem one has as an examiner. I know of an undisclosed number of CPL's and PPL's that I pass ( because they can fly within the CAA parameters)that I wouldnt trust in a machine when on their own, but I cant fail them on Captaincy. I fear JP may be pressured into doing something he ought not to, having said that the few trips i have flown with him when not under test he has been on the money with his airmanship. What happens when I am not there I obviously dont know. For those others I will try and keep a handle on him but I am afraid i cant stop him, while I am at it the insinuation that I purely look at it through my wallet I find rather distasteful

Al-bert

10th Dec 2012, 18:56

Oh dear, I didn't want to get involved but - how many people here have flown fire buckets? And how many have seen what a teensy weensy bit of downdraught can do to a little fire? :}

Move along now, nothing to see, move along...........:eek:

ShyTorque

10th Dec 2012, 19:27

Oh dear, I didn't want to get involved but - how many people here have flown fire buckets? And how many have seen what a teensy weensy bit of downdraught can do to a little fire?

Yes, I used to fly 1,000lb and 6,000 lb firebuckets.

Sir Niall Dementia

10th Dec 2012, 19:37

Hughes;

I would question his captaincy straight off from the video. Despite what Chopc**k says that was wazzing, he probably did that at the request of the camera crew, he may even have offered it. Whichever, it was showing off, anybody who did that without realising the CAA would probably see it (and see that it was obviously illegal, despite what Chopc**k may think) obviously didn't think ahead, and therefore has very questionable captaincy, especially for someone who wants to fly for the emergency services.

Chopc**k do us all a favour, this is a Professional Pilots Rumour Network, anyone is welcome at any grade of qualification to come and ask, and welcome to advise if they know something the rest of us don't, you are just one of those sad people who think they know it all, and definately never will. I've got over 10 000 hours on helicopters and a shed load more on aeroplanes and no tolerance of people as stupid as you, and no I don't know it all, but I learn more daily. I've read a lot of your posts and do wonder when we will be reading about you on here as the latest stupid statistic. Do Mr P, and anyone else who thinks you may be an expert a favour and f*** off before someone follows one of your stupid suggestions and gets hurt.

SND

MightyGem

10th Dec 2012, 21:39

Any particular reason why he was flying from the left hand seat?? Seems to be fairly common with 500s from memory.

Al-bert

10th Dec 2012, 21:45

Hi ShyTqe,

Wessex n Wokka I guess? I flew a fair few with, if I remember rightly, 2000lb loads on the Hohne ranges back in the '70's. Never put out a fire though, but have caused quite a conflagration with the aforementioned down draft!
I guess 6000lb might have some effect but don't think a Hughes 500 would make a meaningful contribution. :cool:
I once had a 1000lb water load dropped on me at a Gutersloh airshow (I was the stooge who had to run out of the crowd complete in kaftan and hippy wig). It was a hot day and I was pleasantly damp for all of 60 secs! ;)

md 600 driver

10th Dec 2012, 21:46

gem

the 500 comes optional in left hand p1 and right hand p2

if you have left hand p1 you can use 3 seats in front if right hand you can use only 2 seats in front

steve

XV666

10th Dec 2012, 22:34

There appears some strange 'knowledge' of fire ops being spouted here, re water bombing. The OP isn't about bombing but anyone with a season or three under their belt would be cacking themselves with the idea that downwash should be an issue: drops should be at a height and speed commensurate with the type of fire such that a proper drop pattern is achieved and downwash isn't even a consideration. Hover drops should be done by long line buckets, again you'd be only doing that when blacking out after a fire when soot and forest litter may be stirred up. 100'+ lines should keep most mediums high enough, belly tanks shouldn't be considered for hover drops except in extremis.

I've not seen a Hughes 500 without left hand drive: IRCC the standard factory fit is LH P1, anything else is optional.

And out of mild curiosity: why is the thread about 'millionaire pilots'?? Are there others of us with more than a mill to our name, lining up to be jack the lad?

ShyTorque

10th Dec 2012, 23:02

Hi ShyTqe,
Wessex n Wokka I guess?

No, not either of those types I'm afraid (it wasn't in the UK or in military service).

newfieboy

11th Dec 2012, 00:53

Heli,
I hear you mate, only a season or 20 for me on a longline and bucket. Sure Gordy will be along soon also. You can 'bomb' the f##k out of a fire, when what you need is good drop patterns etc, many machines now also equipped with foam/retardant options, oh and normally on a good campaign fire a 'Birddog' A/C controlling drops. And the most important thing, good comms all around. I've done fires with over 100 a/c working together and lots of Initial Attack, where you are first on scene and might be on your own with crew for a while before spare resources arrive. It definitely doesn't involve bombing the crap out of it. It needs careful planning with all involved. And also a good knowledge of fire behaviour by crews. In most provinces here, in order to even fly fires, you need annual training at provincial fire centres and company needs an audit. It definitely is not Thunderbirds, when faced with some of the major annual infernos in this part of the world. I have lost many good buddies over the years fighting fire. Very experienced guys at that. On the subject of water rescue with a longline, again pretty familiar and current with longline over water and would not even go there unless well current and fully versed in all options. Definitely not with dope on a rope. It is not a place for a rich guy avec 500 trying to be a hero. It will end in tears, you can be sure. Although I admire his enthusiasm, you want to fight fire mate, get a Canadian, US, AUS licence and do it professionally if not dump the coin into your local SAR or HEMS unit. Be money well spent, leave it to the pro's.......

Gordy

11th Dec 2012, 01:13

newfie hit the nail on the head.... There is a certain skill set that is required to be a fire pilot. It is not just about long line skills. One needs to understand fire behavior.... we do NOT put out fires---we manage them..... Half the time I actually light a fire to put one out... does he have a helitorch or PSD machine.... Oh and btw... a light helicopter, (as in a 500 or 206), is useless without guys on the ground.

I saw a video of some fire department in the UK fighting a wildfire in turnout gear----it was comical but I was seriously concerned for their safety. I also noticed the pics of the 500 dropping on a "stationary" fire.... If it aint moving, let it burn otherwise you will end up with debris.... if you burn it---nothing left to clean up.

So Newfie----you gonna be in Blighty for xmas? I will be in Lincoln.... I feel a party coming on.........

newfieboy

11th Dec 2012, 01:24

Gordy
Could well be depends when I get home, and when back after hols.... Will defo meet you in Lincoln, Louth, or Grimsby if back in Blighty. 50/50 right now. Will know by end of week. Do feel a session coming on though mate, been awhile, regards and seasons greetings to the Little Lady......

Hummingfrog

11th Dec 2012, 08:37

Al-bert

I once had a 1000lb water load dropped on me at a Gutersloh airshow (I was the stooge who had to run out of the crowd complete in kaftan and hippy wig).

You're lucky we didn't get it mixed up with the "Illegally parked car" we used to drop;) It would have taken more than 60 secs to fix you up after that!!

Best use of a firebucket I've seen was in the Falklands - used on 23 Sqn:E

As for Mr P - anybody who has his own patch on the shoulder of a flying suit proclaiming he is a member of an emergency service is a ****

HF

Al-bert

11th Dec 2012, 09:38

You're lucky we didn't get it mixed up with the "Illegally parked car" we used to drophttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/wink2.gif

Hummingfrog - yep, that's the one, it was 'my car' and as I ran up and down the crowd line (I was nearly fit back then) shaking my fist at the departing Wx a second one swooped in with the rainmaker! Ah, what would H&S fun police say today? :8

Al-bert

11th Dec 2012, 09:57

Heli

re water bombing. The OP isn't about bombing but anyone with a season or three under their belt would be cacking themselves with the idea that downwash should be an issue

I quite agree Heli, and certainly bow to the experiance of those that fight fires professionally (Newfie et al). Our rather futile attempts with a rainmaker bucket and a wessex back in the '70's was 'a good idea at the time'. It was bollocks! My fire spreading had nothing to do with fire fighting, at least by us - if I told you I'd have to kill you! :E

XV666

11th Dec 2012, 10:43

Al,

At the risk of going OT, what we did in the 70s was OTJ training. Out in the real world we realised the Mil penchant for short/no strops was a FIGJAM moment of gross stupidity. 100' or more is used in the real world for a good reason, and by my 10th season I could actually see why ;)

[email protected]

11th Dec 2012, 12:51

Heli - I think it depends on the scale of fire you are fighting - I have successfully put out small fires on ranges (caused by tracer) simply using the downwash of the Lynx.

Equally we used the fire bucket in Cyprus with the Wessex many times to fight bigger bush fires without the need for 100' long-line. It still wokrs in the Falklands that way with peat fires.

What is for certain is that (as others have posted) the fire fighting effort needs to be co-ordinated between air assets and between air and ground assets.

NigelH - we may not have agreed on every topic but I like the cut of your jib;)

XV666

11th Dec 2012, 18:17

Equally we used the fire bucket in Cyprus with the Wessex many times to fight bigger bush fires without the need for 100' long-line. It still wokrs in the Falklands that way with peat fires.

crab,

Whilst we listen and learn from you re SAROps, maybe you could benefit from doing the same when professionals in other aspects of aviating offer hard won advice?

100' or more is used in the real world for a good reason

toptobottom

11th Dec 2012, 19:26

http://i851.photobucket.com/albums/ab71/prooner/lurker.gif

newfieboy

12th Dec 2012, 03:18

u1kpobfCgAk

Millionaire squadron?.............:cool:
Sorry, couldn't resist..........

SASless

12th Dec 2012, 04:07

why is the thread about 'millionaire pilots'?? Are there others of us with more than a mill to our name, lining up to be jack the lad?

Are not all Chopper Pilots Millionaires like me?:E

So long as the currency is not dollars anyway....say like errrrr...Vietnamese Dong maybe!

[email protected]

12th Dec 2012, 06:10

Heli - I am not trying to outdo you guys who fight big fires for a living - just pointing out that not every fire needs 100' longline buckets to put it out. I realise you use this technique for good reason.

Hughes500

12th Dec 2012, 06:22

Now Newfie please dont give JP ideas by showing videos like that !!!!!!! Surprised to se a 600 doing that didnt think it was that good at lifting due to the Notar ?

SilsoeSid

12th Dec 2012, 07:08

heli;crab,

Whilst we listen and learn from you re SAROps, maybe you could benefit from doing the same when professionals in other aspects of aviating offer hard won advice?

heli,
You will of course be telling these guys to 'professional up' and get a longer line, wont you!...

PDG Helicopters Fire Fighting - YouTube

Helicoptero contra incendios en Briviesca - YouTube

3rd MAW Showcases Helicopter Firefighting Capabilities - YouTube

HELICOPTER FIREFIGHTING AT WORK - YouTube

Firefighting Helicopters Pull Water From Magalia Reservoir - YouTube

...all found, c&p'd and posted in the time it takes to nuke some porridge!

...and perhaps you'd like to look at what others are actually saying before going off at them.....or is there some kind of crab/fishead thing going on between you two?

Gordy

12th Dec 2012, 07:19

There is a place for long line and belly hook. I use them both in the same day, and in fact in the same fuel cycle.

You missed these....all belly hooked....Yours truly....:

QbQA17c2V5Q

ZiGuz5OakEc

More for nostalgia---this was our departure fom Gillespie field every day when we re-located to a forward operating base on the big fire in San Diego..

-MDozaC8Jso

And to show that the guys on the ground are an integral part of fire....

B359-jTq-24

SilsoeSid

12th Dec 2012, 07:30

'heli just edges ahead of crab@ in the 5 furlong firefighting equipment deployment challenge'

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/39/PumaHC1_WessexHU5_Farnborough1982.jpg/1126px-PumaHC1_WessexHU5_Farnborough1982.jpg

SilsoeSid

12th Dec 2012, 07:35

...before Gordy comes down the inside and pulls the carpet from under heli's feet :ok:

http://gifsoup.com/webroot/animatedgifs2/1580026_o.gif

Gordy

12th Dec 2012, 16:24

This more for nostalgia again... these pictures were provided by a friends father. He is the pilot flying the aircraft in them...

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j35/helokat/564929_3747847571015_1740713991_n.jpg

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j35/helokat/251180_3747907052502_15720029_n.jpg

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j35/helokat/429353_3747913412661_567643863_n.jpg

SASless

12th Dec 2012, 17:20

Being a Chinook Pilot in my Heart and Soul......this is fire fighting done right!

Granted it is a PR Video by Columbia (remember all those North Sea Chinooks that are still earning their keep today) there are excellent shots showing the value of a long line approach to fire fighting . I will submit the Long Line in general usage is far more valuable than a tanked aircraft.

Mr5-2BZgZjY

I first used the Twin Fiberglass Fire Buckets in 1968.....in Vietnam using CH-47A's.

HOGE

12th Dec 2012, 17:32

Gordy, for interest.

http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg104/HOGE61/kamen.jpg

SilsoeSid

13th Dec 2012, 15:16

Not sure what hoops JP has to jump through in order to do this 'Emergency Service' work, but in order to do mine there are a few to go through. While prepping for an upcoming hoop, I came across hard copies of a couple of booklets that may be of interest.

HE3 Helicopter Off Airfield Landing Site Operations (http://easa.europa.eu/essi/ehest/2012/01/he3/)

HE4 Training Leaflet – Single Pilot Decision Making (http://easa.europa.eu/essi/ehest/2012/06/he4/)

I thought part of HE4 may be relevant here;

Hazardous Attitudes

1. Anti-authority ›› “Don’t tell me what to do!” This attitude is found in people who do not like anyone telling them what to do. In a sense, they tend to regard rules, regulations, and procedures as unnecessary.

2. Impulsivity ›› “Must do something now!” This is the attitude of people who frequently feel the need to do something, anything, immediately. They do not take the time to think about what they are about to do; therefore they often do not select the best alternative.

3. Invulnerability ›› “It won’t happen to me.” Many people feel that accidents happen only to others, but can’t happen to them. They never really feel or believe that they will be personally involved. Pilots who think this way are more likely to take chances and increase risk.

4. Macho/Egocentric ›› “I can do it – I’ll show them.” Pilots with this type of attitude often take risks to prove that they are good and to impress others.

5. Resignation ›› “What's the use? There is nothing I can do.” The pilot will leave the action to others, for better or worse. Sometimes, such pilots will even go along with unreasonable requests just to be a “nice guy”.

:hmm:

[email protected]

14th Dec 2012, 07:44

Oh dear - I think I have been all of those at some time in my career:{

SilsoeSid

14th Dec 2012, 08:47

I think most of us have, but perhaps not all of them at the same time ;)

toptobottom

14th Dec 2012, 09:46

HE4 makes excellent reading; this material should feature in the PPL(H) syllabus and reviewed in the [L]PC

SilsoeSid

14th Dec 2012, 09:57

Out of interest on a wet & windy morning, as a non AOC'd CPL(H), what currencies, qualifications, checks and limitations or dispensations will JP have to comply with in order to fly this type of operation?

If this is 'succesful' and the other millionaire pilot mates join in, how will things change and will they also have to be CPL's or would a PPL be sufficient?

Hughes500

14th Dec 2012, 12:59

SS

An AOC is irrelevent in this situation. You only need an AOC if you are flying for hire and reward and he presumably is not, then one could do it with a PPLH !!!!!!!!!!
He would have to do a normal yearly LPC and that is it. Wouldnt actually need a dispensation from many rules if all he was doing was taking off and landing following normal aviation practisces. He doesnt even break any aviation rules by landing, providing it is not in a congested area.
Probably not a great deal The CAA could do to stop him unless he lands at Trowbridge fire station !:bored:

SilsoeSid

14th Dec 2012, 14:17

Thanks H500.
The next wait is to see who the other Thunderbirds will be. However, just like any other businessman entering into a new venture, JP will be keeping the names under his hat until agreements are made.

misterbonkers

14th Dec 2012, 14:21

Is PR classed as reward?

SilsoeSid

14th Dec 2012, 15:38

What is a reward?
An incentive to motivation?

misterbonkers

14th Dec 2012, 16:09

Noun
A thing given in recognition of service, effort, or achievement.

Verb
Make a gift of something to (someone) in recognition of their services, efforts, or achievements.

Synonyms
noun. remuneration - recompense - prize - requital - premium
verb. requite - recompense - remunerate - repay - compensate

So he should be ok as long as no-one 'recognises' his efforts.

Hughes500

14th Dec 2012, 16:10

Mr B

You wold have to ask a solicitor that I am afraid. I would think the CAA wouldn't want to go down that route as they have a nasty habit of getting it wrong

Fly_For_Fun

14th Dec 2012, 16:11

Is this not providing a service much the same as the police do with their helicopters? And do they not need to operate with an AOC?

nigelh

14th Dec 2012, 19:07

Ok , I just couldn't contain myself any longer ... There should be an announcement next week in the press . I had my flight suit measured up for me last week and it has just arrived !!!!
Being very rich I had it tailored in Savile Row by my family tailor . I shall put a photo on soon with me posing next to my 109 ... Complete with water cannon out of each back door . The canon are fed from a crop spray tank on each side carrying approx 100 gallons . The spray is adjustable from the collective right down to fine mist ( which is the best format for pine forest fires )
I can't wait to get going and just want to say how much it means to me to have the personal support of two of our greatest ppruners .... Crab and TC . With their mil background and my natural skill I believe NO fire will be safe !!!!

handysnaks

14th Dec 2012, 19:53

Fly for fun. You'll find that the ANO specifically requires an aircraft flown in the service of a Police authority to be operated under a PAOC, National AOC or EU-OPs AOC. I don't believe that is the same for anyone flying for the Fire Service..............

Obviously now that Police Authorities don't exist then anyone can fly for the police as well, so I suppose it's all up for grabs!!:eek::E

Hughes500

15th Dec 2012, 06:15

Fly for fun
Police need an AOC as it was deemed the observer in the aircraft was a fare paying passnger and therefore an aoc was needed. Now under EASA OPs you can do aerial work with no aoc just need to be a cpl and you can have up to 8 pax on board that are fare paying pax providing they are directly related to the task. So if JP was a CPL then under EASA ops he could legally charge for his service !!!!!!.

hihover

15th Dec 2012, 12:54

Be careful Nigel, I don't think you can do that without the sliding door mod as the doors must be locked open to fire canons.

Tam

nigelh

15th Dec 2012, 16:02

I am aware of that , Thankyou . We have fitted a quick release so will always take the doors off prior to operating the water cannon .

Spanish Waltzer

2nd Jan 2013, 17:38

Has the trial started?

Helinut

2nd Jan 2013, 21:16

SW,

I cannot find the reference, but I vaguely recall the trial was due to start in April. If it was the 1st, then that might say something about the enterprise.

Hughes500

3rd Jan 2013, 07:10

Is that the trial for Nigel's water cannon ?

nigelh

3rd Jan 2013, 14:49

Heli still in maintenance so not for a couple weeks ...

timex

4th Jan 2013, 14:49

Will they have badges.......:hmm::hmm:

Al-bert

4th Jan 2013, 15:32

Will they have badges.......http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/yeees.gifhttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/yeees.gif

oh yes, you NEED badges........lots :E

SilsoeSid

11th Jan 2013, 08:27

No further updates?

Jeremy Paxton » Aviation (http://www.jeremypaxton.co.uk/?cat=11)

Some pics SkyTech Helicopters: G-MRRR Refurb (http://www.skytechhelicopters.co.uk/refurbishments/g-mrrr-refurb/)

Thomas coupling

11th Jan 2013, 09:48

More is More, methinks...........................for superman.

My next door neighbour (about 1/2 mile from me) owns 1000 acres of prime agricultural land and lives in a Grade I stately home which has been in his family for 400 years. He drives around in a Peugeout 306 ('52 model). He is on every conceivable charity and conservation programme and he keeps a very low profile indeed.
A colleague of mine owns a polo school in Surrey. He owns an AS355, A109S and an S76. He is an aristocrat with family ties to royalty. He is an exceptionally pleasant guy who keeps himself to himself and gets on with his patronages.

Yet, for some reason we have a guy here who is crying out for attention. He has devoted an entire web site to himself and what he gets up to for atleast the last 12 years+:sad:
Narcissism in motion.:sad:

Interestingly on the intro page he declares his love for the environment, yet flies everywhere in his kerosene burner, skies behind his petrol burner and builds concrete houses in prime english countryside?
He also states he is a commercial pilot......eerm, has he got a CPL?

[He missed off the bit where he is also a jedi KNIGHT].

toptobottom

11th Jan 2013, 11:37

That's the difference between aristocracy and nouveau riche: class.

Al-bert

11th Jan 2013, 12:10

we Jedi Knights don't like to brag...:cool:

Al Fentanyl

12th Jan 2013, 13:11

May be silly question - has there been any examination of whether there actually exists a NEED for a RW asset in this context (fire/rescue)? He states in his interview that his proposal will save lives - are there lives currently being lost for lack of a helicopter? When? Where? how often? Would they have died anyway? Or is he talking out his @rse? ....and can therefore be dismissed as a well meaning amateur - one of the deadliest elements in aviation.

Helinut

12th Jan 2013, 19:58

AF,

Not sure there is a direct/complete answer to your question. In the UK there have been one or two trials: one in London and one for Somerset/Avon that I am aware of.

Following the trial, LFB did not pursue any helicopter support. Not quite sure about Somerset/Avon: their trial was recently completed. I heard a rumour that this might be followed by a further 12 month trial.

There is some use of heles in UK forest fires, but much less than other parts of the world. I think they are mainly contracted by the forest owners (e.g. the Forestry Commission)

From time to time a Fire Service makes use of police heles: usually (in my experience) limited to things like FLIR downlink which can be fascinating (although I don't know how valuable).

Is there a track record in other parts?

PANews

12th Jan 2013, 21:49

If this attitude was in place for the last 500 years we would all be in rowing boats.

Did Percy Pilcher and the Wright Brothers know about the Boeing 747 when they pushed off into the ether supported by stick and string? Of course not. It was real wing and a prayer with no real end target other than striving to achieve. And, heaven forbid, they self promoted and so we know about them.

This whole project may fall flat on its face but its private money and he is willing to give it a spin. OK so he maybe self promoting, he may be delusional [but I doubt it] but at least he is doing what he apparently believes in for the public good. The USA airborne emergency services is riddled with such people and in many States the locals only get their police and fire air support from such 'gifts' of time and effort - perhaps he thinks he is a Yank?

There are fire helicopters across the world and they all do different jobs, some do it better than others and perhaps a 500 is way down the food chain but some are in use and there are no signs that they are withdrawing them because some Ppruners think they are rubbish......

The wider industry has seen fit to pump lots of money into the concept of a UK fire helicopter over 20 years so they think there is a prize out there waiting to be plucked some day. The main problems have been a lack of visionary senior fire officers, spare cash and, mainly the pressure of the fire unions to say no to each and every project so far.

There are plenty of instances in police aviation where delusional, self promoting, people led to the creation of less than viable air units that grew into something worthwhile and elsewhere on Pprune there is a big argument about how NPAS is wrecking that very model.

So what wrong has this man actually done?

SilsoeSid

13th Jan 2013, 00:32

Did Percy Pilcher and the Wright Brothers know about the Boeing 747 when they pushed off into the ether supported by stick and string? Of course not. It was real wing and a prayer with no real end target other than striving to achieve. And, heaven forbid, they self promoted and so we know about them.

PA, what you fail to realise is that this thread is trying to prevent JP ending up the same way of Percy, who didn't have a load of people warning him of the dangers that lay ahead. Percy, you may like to note, died demonstrating his flying machine to potential sponsors. (Cheese slices again!)

The Wright Brothers learnt from the gliding experiences and designs of Otto Lilienthal who died in a glider crash, and don't forget that the first person to die in a powered airplane crash was a passenger of a plane piloted by Orville, Lt. Thomas Selfridge.

I don't think this thread is having a go at anyones self promotion, it's highlighting that issues will present themselves along the way, where lives may be put at risk. In JP's video, he says that if he saves one life it will all be worth it, I'm thinking that if this trial doesn't go ahead, potentially there's that life saved.