Millionaire helicopter pilots to ferry emergency services...

[homonculus]

PANews

Please take a few minutes to read the earlier pages of this thread. You are at danger of repetition

This chap is going to push the safety envelope and will not be able to respond reliably. The concept of helicopters in the fire role in the UK has been discussed. They have no benefit and may well cause harm by diverting emergency service resources.

Please do not give him encouragement.

[heli1]

Well said PA News....the world is full of arm chair critics and at least Paxton is trying to do something positive.
I have no doubt the powers will rein him in if he takes undue risk and we need volunteers as auxiliaries to our hard pressed public sevices .Are some of the critics also those who wont sweep the pavement free of snow or clear drains of flood water for 'elf and safety reasons too??

[Al-bert]

the world is full of arm chair critics and at least Paxton is trying to do something positive

it's also full of Walts, wannabe's and feckin eejits :E

[PANews]

Walts, wannabe's and feckin eejits

Without a doubt.

But you flying gentlemen got your mounts thanks to those very idiots. Their names are pretty well known.... Harry Hawker, Juan de Cierva .... As Heli 1 suggests, if its too dangerous the CAA will do something about it.

I recall the screaming from industry across the water when the DoD dumped 3,000 old Vietnam era IH-1, OH-58 and OH-6 on the US market ten years ago about how much damage it would do to jobs of aviators, manufacturers and probably global warming........ They were wrong and most of the 3,000 were rubbish anyway, those that worked gave professional pilots jobs and the industry work in doing up the old and replacing them with new machines when they proved their worth.

Its a good job they did not just scrap them..... a few of the OH-58s are being rebuilt for Afghanistan...

If it is too expensive to do properly maybe this volunteer trial will prove a need that will get jobs for professional pilots. If it doesn't all well and good.

[SilsoeSid]

You just don't get it do you PA!

Quote as many names from the past as you like. You may note that your 2 latest names - Harry Hawker & Juan de Cierva - both died in aircraft crashes.

I will expand on my last post;
"What you fail to realise is that this thread is trying to prevent JP ending up the same way of Percy", Harry and Juan.

[Al-bert]

I'm struck by the number of current and ex helicopter pilots/crew who have in many cases years of experience in SAR, police, military fields who think this is a BAD idea (and unworkable) compared with the amateur pilots and non aircrew who see it as a good and workable idea. Strange that isn't it? :ugh:

[toptobottom]

I'm struck by the number of current and ex helicopter pilots/crew who have in many cases years of experience in SAR, police, military fields who think this is a BAD idea (and unworkable) compared with the amateur pilots and non aircrew who see it as a good and workable idea. Strange that isn't it? :ugh:

Not really. Although some the contributors to this thread are amateurs, they have many years of experience flying helicopters. However, they also have the benefit of many years experience in business. Most have been successful in their respective businesses despite having faced odds stacked against them: bureaucracy, competition, economics, etc.

Where JP's has the skills or not, whether his ideas are workable or not, whether there is a need or not, I still admire his `have-a-go` aspirations, even if they are the product of his ego. It may well be that they will be crushed by legislation, common sense, or some other reason, but I don't understand the rationale behind attacking him.

[ShyTorque]

I'm still wondering who will insure the operation.

[SilsoeSid]

It may well be that they will be crushed by legislation, common sense, or some other reason, but I don't understand the rationale behind attacking him.

Maybe because we can see the 'other reason' to be Death !

[toptobottom]

Death :confused:

Where does that bit come in? Wouldn't he be bound to comply with legislation just like anyone else doing a similar role and so face the same risks as anyone else? Why should his aspirations be crushed by death?!

[Al-bert]

but I don't understand the rationale behind attacking him

toptobottom.....I don't know why I'm bothering to try and explain but here goes, just one more time maybe.....what f'ing use is a toy helicopter, flown by a successful businessman, who presumably likes to wine and dine with friends now and again, going to be to a 24/7 emergency service?
Furthermore, I can spot a Walt with a penchant for 'Rescue Badges' from miles away. I have met rather a lot of them in my 22 years flying SAR helos in cooperation with police, fire, ambulance, coastguard and mountain rescue. A one man Hughes 500 operation? Perhaps he should offer his services to the SAS too, for when the fire and rescue work is a bit slack? :ugh:

[Hummingfrog]

Al

You are very patient:ok: There are some of us who know what pressures are put on the rescue services to get a job done and how a lot of the pressure is generated by us the people who do the job. We pressure ourselves because we have been trained to "save" peoples lives and are generally called as a last resort when other "cheaper" methods have either been tried or are deemed not to be viable from the start.

The big difference between us and Walt's is that we have been trained to resit these pressures and brought up in an environment where our experience allows us to make safe and rational decisions under the extreme pressure of there being someone's life in danger.

I can understand someone wanting to offer their services for the good of the community but when they start inventing and wearing badges on flying suits one begins to worry that they may not understand the pressures that rescue crews work under and go one step too far with tragic consequences:{

HF

[SilsoeSid]

ttbDeath :confused:

Where does that bit come in? Wouldn't he be bound to comply with legislation just like anyone else doing a similar role and so face the same risks as anyone else? Why should his aspirations be crushed by death?!

He can fit through all the hoops and most certainly will, but as this thread (and many others) has highlighted, put a succesful businessman in a scenario where his reputation is on the line and he is likely to do anything to make sure that the venture succeeds rather than 'lose face'.

ttb, some of us don't want to revisit this thread in the future, after reading a report, and think 'that lot rings a bell or two'!

[SilsoeSid]

As far as the insurance question goes;

Thunderbirds are go (http://www.verypcc.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&Itemid=7&Itemid=7&id=380)
...will be “on-call” three days a week initially for Wiltshire Fire Service during a one-year trial...

He has taken out insurance cover to handle up to 40 callouts a year.

3 days a week for a year; 3x52= 156 :confused:

How's that going to work?

[Al-bert]

HF....I thought you knew me better! My ACR's always stated 'doesn't suffer fools gladly!' I took it as a compliment :E

[Thomas coupling]

Silsoe: :D

Methinks Egotists want the glory but not the pain.

Business meetings
Dinner dances
Skiing
Cocktail parties
Bank manager
Maintenance
Holidays
Bad weather
Fuel shortages
Over the limit
Flying overalls not ironed
Sunday mornings
Golf

Only a few reasons why he is unavailable to help the fire department out :{

[toptobottom]

Oh dear, Al-bert - another anorak feeling now's the time to boast about his badge collection and a expose the chip on his shoulder with 'successful businessmen'.

HF - I accept your point, but don't you think St. John Ambulance workers face pressure when 'saving a life'. Don't you think Paxton will have had more than his fair share of pressure building his empire? Do you know Paxton doesn't work for St. John Ambulance already?

SSput a succesful businessman in a scenario where his reputation is on the line and he is likely to do anything to make sure that the venture succeeds rather than 'lose face'I'm not sure that's true (or even why you too have such a jaundiced view of 'successful businessmen', but even if it was, isn't that a reason to believe he would ensure it was more likely to be of some benefit?

TC - what on earth are you talking about now? Or is this your "chippy, short-arse" paranoia manifesting itself again? Success (or wealth as you see it) doesn't necessarily mean egotist. Do you really resent wealth that much?

I'm not suggesting that Paxton's idea is good or bad, but it seems you guys are intent on mocking the concept simply on the basis that he's a `successful businessman', neither knowing him and his qualifications, nor the steps he and his advisors have taken to convert the concept into reality.

Do you think Community Support Officers are of no value? Are St. John Ambulance workers a liability? Have you all written to the editor of The Sun to complain about Richard Branson's space rocket?!

[Al-bert]

I get it topbottom, your a successful businessman right? I've nothing against successful businessmen btw, just people who haven't a clue what they're talking about. I should have said 'a toy helicopter flown by a very keen and well intentioned part time amateur pilot who is only available when it suits him and when it doesn't conflict with more pressing business or social engagements'.
Perhaps you should change your name to frontbottom, seems more appropriate for you? :E

[SilsoeSid]

Please correct me if I'm wrong ttb, but I didn't think that Richard Branson was piloting any space rockets, I was under the impression that as management, he gave that job to a couple of ex RAF & USAF Test Pilots.

Besides;
Overview – Safety | Virgin Galactic (http://www.virgingalactic.com/overview/safety/)Our excitement in 2002 on discovering Burt Rutan's plans for SpaceShipOne focused on a number of design features which we believed in their own right could make the vehicles many thousands of times safer than any manned space craft of the past. Overlay that with Virgin's experience in transportation operations and there potentially existed a unique opportunity to transform levels of safety from day one; a pre-requisite for any responsible operator and in particular for Virgin Galactic.

[Hughes500]

Al-Bert

Question for you, your daughter is in an RTA, The Brigade has no cutting tools the only way is getting them is Mr Paxton's helicopter so presumably you would say NO
At the same time presumably you would get rid of virtually all Mountain Rescue Teams, St John's ambulance services, RNLI and loads of other volunteering services as they are not staffed by full time professionals
Paxton is no fool in either aviation or business. Yes there are pressures to do jobs but if he stays within the normal aiviation rules ( 1500m viz etc etc) what is the problem where there is the possibility of saving life.
I presume you would be on the Health and Safety side of life where like the 2 officers who wouldnt go into the water to save some drowning people last year as they werent trained in water rescue. I ersonally saved someone from drowning 150m off a beach, was I trained in surf rescue - no, was I trained in 1st aid yes but I wasnt prepared to watch someone drown without at least trying. That person I saved happened to be a surgeon so who knows how many lives he has since saved.
I know all you highly experienced professional pilots think the idea is crap, do you lot have any better ideas or put your money where your mouth is ? Do you even know what the limitations of the service is ? Do you know the guy ? Do you know is piloting ability ? Any of you contacted him to give him your advice ( gave TC his e mail address in a PM ages ago) ? If the answer to any of the above is yes then my apologies
Yes I have reservations about what he is offering but given some clear SOP's I dont see why it should not go ahead on a trial basis.
Back to my trench now

[[email protected]]

Hughes - your argument is flawed because the difference between Paxton and the Mountain Rescue Teams, St John's ambulance services, RNLI etc is training, training and more training.

None of those organisations would dream of just giving their volunteers a pretty badge to wear and letting them loose.

[SilsoeSid]

H500,
With respect, IMHO there is a vast difference between;

Mountain Rescue Teams -
1903 The 'Scafell Disaster' (1903)was a pivotal moment in mountain rescue history as a shocked climbing fraternity began to consider the increasing incidence of mountain accidents and the lack of rescue resources available. Within a year, rudimentary first aid and mountain rescue equipment began to appear in key areas. But it was an accident in 1928, in the Peak District, and the extreme difficulties encountered by rescuers, which sparked the eventual formation of the Mountain Rescue Committee.
Mountain Rescue England and Wales | History (http://www.mountain.rescue.org.uk/history)

RNLI -
Saving lives at sea since 1824
​The RNLI has saved more than 139,000 lives since its foundation in 1824 as the National Institution for the Preservation of Life from Shipwreck. The name was changed to the Royal National Lifeboat Institution in 1854, and cork lifejackets were first issued to crew members in the same year.
The 20th century saw the RNLI continue to save lives at sea through two world wars. Lifeboats moved from sail and oar power to petrol and diesel, and the first women joined their crews.
History (http://rnli.org/aboutus/historyandheritage/Pages/History.aspx)

St John's ambulance services -
St John Ambulance teaches people first aid – about 800,000 last year alone – so that they can be the difference between a life lost and a life saved.

Thousands of the people we trained went on to offer their skills and time to be the difference right in the heart of their community, as St John Ambulance volunteers – to provide first aid at public events, to be Community First Responders who attend emergency calls and provide care until the ambulance arrives, to provide patient transport, or as back up to local ambulance services during local major emergencies.
What we do - St John Ambulance (http://www.sja.org.uk/sja/what-we-do.aspx)


...and a millionaire that is using his helicopter as an emergency service with no experience whatsoever in emergency service operations or any of the tasks about to be trialled.

I know all you highly experienced professional pilots think the idea is crap,

I don't think this thread has anything to do with that train of thought. To put it simply, he has already proved himself to be a liability when the weather is dodgy and I think most of us 'professionals' for some strange reason, can foresee the hazards (cheese slices) that the 'non professionals' appear not to be able to.

(I don't like using the terms professional and non-proffesional, but it seems that others do)


All that aside, please explain why he has only sought insurance for 40 callouts.

[Spanish Waltzer]

Silsoe's thunderbird link dated nov 12 states that the trial is already underway. H500 can you confirm that this is the case and if so perhaps report back on how many missions he has been called for, how many he has responded to & what the outcomes have been. That way we might start getting some facts to support one or other side of the argument rather than simple name calling, rumour and speculation....

Anybody would think this is a rumour site.....:ok:

SW

[SilsoeSid]

H500;Question for you, your daughter is in an RTA, The Brigade has no cutting tools the only way is getting them is Mr Paxton's helicopter so presumably you would say NO

What a ridiculous statement, and a subject that has already been covered here. To remind you, JP and his cutting equipment pod will in fact take longer to get to an incident than a ground vehicle. :ugh:


Wiltshire Fire & Rescue Service use this as their standard front line fire engine, therefore it is normally the first appliance to arrive at an incident. Due to this fact it was designed to deliver the maximum number of firefighters to an incident in the shortest time, with the versatility to be able to cope with the variety of incidents that make up modern day firefighting. With this in mind, it is not surprising to find that the Dennis Sabre is the fastest appliance in the FRS's fleet, able to reach any urban area within 10 minutes and any rural area within 20 minutes.
.
EQUIPMENT ON APPLIANCE
.
.
.
• Hydraulic rescue equipment for use at Road Traffic Accidents (this would include spreaders/cutters etc).

Standard Fire Engine (http://www.wiltsfire.gov.uk/About_Us/Brigade_Appliances/appliance_pages/physical_resources_appliances_sabre.htm)

[Hummingfrog]

toptobottom

HF - I accept your point, but don't you think St. John Ambulance workers face pressure when 'saving a life'. Don't you think Paxton will have had more than his fair share of pressure building his empire? Do you know Paxton doesn't work for St. John Ambulance already?

I can't tell from your profile if you are a pilot but I suspect you may not be as the quoted statement is not a true comparison of pressure that can kill you:ugh:

A pressurized pilot can kill himself and his crew quite easily by making the wrong decision - usually related to weather and press-on-itis.

I have yet to hear of a businessman accidentally killing himself and his secretary due to the pressure he is under in his business.

HF

[Al-bert]

Sorry Hughes500 you clearly do not have the slightest idea what rescue work involves in aviation terms. As Crab points out, training, training and more training is what distinguishes all the volunteer rescue organisations with whom I have worked - and have been on occasions a part of. That is why I entered MY chosen career before I retired to become a 'business man'. SAR helo flying is not a hobby and a final point - 1500m viz? It's only going to be good weather too?

[Al-bert]

I have yet to hear of a businessman accidentally killing himself and his secretary due to the pressure he is under in his business

no HF,
it's usually deliberate from what I have read, and confined to self and family.

[Thomas coupling]

TTB: [Albert's alter ego (frontbottom) is much more fitting - don't you think? Certainly suits you: Everytime I picture you now, I see a frontbottom on your shoulders :O:O].
You've certainly declared your colours haven't you? What automatically makes you think I have it in for 'rich people' (What is the definition of rich anyway, because if it is someone with 7 digits (and I don't mean fingers, before you 'chip' in) in their personal inventory, I declare myself well and truly rich:p).
Again - for the hard of reading, I will declare my position:
For me, TTB, it's all about SOME people's attitude (see my other thread "more is....more"). It's about the fact that SOME people don't consider normality/rules/regs to apply to them. They see the world through their bespectacled perspectives. It appears there is a propensity for RICH to ingratiate themselves this way. Now did you read that correctly or do you want me to wait here while I wait for you to read it again?
Perhaps the word that could be used is - arrogant, or narcissistic. You choose.
Paxman (love it) isn't so much a "cock" (as Capt Slow from Top Gear would say) because he's rich. He's a "cock" because he genuinely believes, as someone who is technically an amateur with a PPL, with absolutely NO training whatsoever, he can contribute to a professional life saving organisation on his (40 day) terms :ugh: This is what makes him stand out. Now a NON rich person wouldn't be in a position to put such ideas forward because he wouldn't have the wherewithall to do it - hence ATTITUDE, ttb, OK? Get it?

Hughes500: You scare me. You really scare me - Here's me thinking you are a switched on helo instructor and then you come up with the most ridiculous scenario possible (Almost child like response). Firstly it's an RTC (RTA's went out 12 years ago). Do you think (a) firecrew would turn up to an RTC without fire cutting equipment? and (b) even if they did forget???????? Paxman would then be called up at the rush and asked to pop down to the nearest fire depot and pick up the cutting kit? Perleeeeeeeeze. Your last post was pathetic in the extreme - you must surely have been drinking when you wrote that. Or your mum wrote it! :ugh:
[And do you think I am going to cold e-mail Jerrry paxman (love it) and tell him he's a "cock" and Hughes'y told me to call him:ouch:]

For everyone reading this thread - this is not about MONEY'd people. It is about certain individuals attitudes to life. And how they go about getting things done. Like I said in the other thread - because they are successful in one walk of life, they automatically think the same formula works elsewhere.

[P1DRIVER]

Tail rotor shaft joint

"It is about certain individuals attitudes to life. And how they go about getting things done. Like I said in the other thread - because they are successful in one walk of life, they automatically think the same formula works elsewhere".

How very true !!!!!!! :D:D Half of them on here can,t /won,t see that.

[Pittsextra]

The arrogance in this thread is incredible.

Personally couldn't care less if this guy or the next guy wants to prance around in a flight suit, get his name in the newspaper whatever, dine out on his self promotion.

In the end if he operates his machine inline with everyone else doing the same whats the issue?

Who the **** are people here to claim he does or does not have the skills to fly? I think some people need to have a word with themselves, its flying a helicopter not finding a cure for cancer. Whilst not taking aviation lightly I think you might find that more than one or two have managed to fly these things without piling in.

Oddly these naysayers don't seem quiet so confident or vocal in their criticism with some accidents that have actually happened....

[SilsoeSid]

Pittsextra;
Who the **** are people here to claim he does or does not have the skills to fly?

Who has said that?

Oddly these naysayers don't seem quiet so confident or vocal in their criticism with some accidents that have actually happened....

I take it you haven't read the Mark Weir thread :rolleyes:

[Al-bert]

The arrogance in this thread is incredible. as is the ignorance Pittsextra.

To be useful, I say again USEFUL, to an emergency service you need to be available at all times, day and night, in all weathers, have the right skills and practice them regularly, and the right aircraft with the right equipment - it's no use if, for example, you cannot talk to the people you're offering to help or you lack the space or payload. It's great that people want to help. Perhaps I could help you in your line of work? I'm sure it must be simple.
It takes a bit more than one or two have managed to fly these things without piling in.
:ugh:

[Pittsextra]

Who said that? Well I think you get to about post 3 in this thread before, semantics aside, you get to the skill set element.

Yes read the Mark Weir thread and actually I'd agree with the people who claim he was an accident waiting to happen. Although one does notice a difference in tone between that thread and this one:-

http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/329379-italian-nh-90-accident-1st-june-08-a.html

Edited to add reply to Al-bert:-

In the end if this guy wants to spend £50bil on making some crazy stupid project who cares? No doubt it will be regulated in the same way and probably fail for all the reasons you claim but I was just commenting on the fact there are 15 pages of this and on more than one occasion its not much more than a personal attack on this guy.

[SilsoeSid]

Pittsextra, ring any bells?

Pittsextra;
TTB - I actually think this is the kind of post being hinted at:-

Quote:
The decision whether to fly or not is a different issue. The point I'm making is that Mark was a sound pilot and one should judge neither his decision process that night, nor his flying ability on some random YT clips.
Actually you can make a judgement on not just someones flying ability but their motivations and mental attitude from much of the published material.

You might decide to suggest that the judgement is wrong but never the less. In a thread of 10 pages what is quite interesting is that some people seem to "get it" within the first moments while others defend this insanity to the bitter end.

Jim, Reno, P51 or Mark, Cumbria, Gazelle. Same, same.

Lets not add JP to the end of your list eh! :ok:

[SilsoeSid]

Who said that? Well I think you get to about post 3 in this thread before, semantics aside, you get to the skill set element.


Post 3;
Just waiting for the surge of responses!

What you are looking at here is a frustrated professional pilot and when people with money can't be bothered to do what is required to satisfy their urgings they blag their way round by dressing-up their actions with good intentions.

Anyone committed to professionalism (private or otherwise) will be the first to impose a thick layer of requirements for pilots and ground crew so as to ensure they know what the heck they are doing.

I'd suggest anything less than 1,500 hours minimum experience would be folly and, as stated, a thick slab of healthy training for ground and air crews.

Paxton would be better off donating some money to his local air ambulance and the wealthy flyers better suited to a day trip to seaside.

Sorry, its the eternal optimist in me coming out.


Now where does it mention that JP doesn't have be skills to fly?

[Pittsextra]

Sure Silsoe - and as I said in my reply I agree vis Mark Wier, but not entirely sure what the 500 pilot guy has actually done? I mean if he was a 10K hour ex-mil test pilot would we be on page 15 of "this rich guy is a C U next tuesday"?

There are a lot of silly accidents, actually I don't think the recent EC225 issues show a great deal of intelligence, nor do I find much intelligence in that NH90 crash or indeed the accident in Harrogate with a Gazelle - although whilst a PPL is dead one might also note that neither the instructor, examiner or in fact CAA cover themselves in glory.

[SilsoeSid]

Yes read the Mark Weir thread and actually I'd agree with the people who claim he was an accident waiting to happen. Although one does notice a difference in tone between that thread and this one:-

The difference being that the Cumbria thread highlighted that if someone had said something to Mark way before that night, things might have been different. Hopefully JP is reading this and when for example a 'marginal weather' or 'late in the day' callout comes along, he doesn't make any wrong decisions.

No one is questioning anyone's Captaincy etc, but we all know in this type of business that the hardest thing to day is no .... even if the child from an earlier post is trapped in a car.

[Pittsextra]

The difference being that the Cumbria thread highlighted that if someone had said something to Mark way before that night, things might have been different.

You don't think someone should have had had a word with Fornassi to attempt things turning out differently? Or perhaps he couldn't have had an ego because he wasn't a millionaire or was flying a company aircraft?

Personally I'd say this mil pilot was the biggest ego I've ever read about.

Hopefully JP is reading this and when for example a 'marginal weather' or 'late in the day' callout comes along, he doesn't make any wrong decisions.


Yes maybe and very noble for everyone to try and assist - although perhaps that message might be better imparted?

Look I don't care about this emergency service privateer hero, headline grabber. I'm just highlighting the reality which is there are very many here that love to put the boot in to what they see as easy targets. When it comes to more obvious professionals the silence is deafening.

[Hughes500]

TC

I PM ed you Paxton's e mail address so you could advise him, have you done so ?
If so what reply did you get ?
SS
The examples may not be the best ( were used to show you can volunteer to do things and dont necessarily need to have a professional licence to be any good) but who are we to know what training he is doing or not.
My whole beef is the slagging he gets when people do not have the full facts, everyone is believing the press reports which just goes to show how nieve some on this forum are.
Some have put up some very good arguments that I have passed on others just see him as a rich boy trying to get the " I have seen it done it badge" eg "running round in a gas guzzling helicopter" actually his entire business and life is carbon neutral, anyone else claim that on here ?
I would expect a bit more professionalism, I would emplore SS and TC with your wealth of knowledge you should go and visit him and see what he is about. You might be pleasantly surprised you may not. When you have done that then by all means call him what you will.
I did not know the guy from Adam until asked to do his LPC a couple of years ago. Yes he is different to most can come over as a bit arrogrant but his heart is in the right place and wants to help and he always asks for advice, perhaps the likes of some on this should help steer him the right way, you never know it might work.
I was very synical about the Territorial Army serving on Ops with regular guys as they were part timers and not professionals, actually had to eat humble pie as in some cases they were better and more motivated.
If nothing else this makes for interesting interludes form gardening in the rain over a tea

[500e]

"If nothing else this makes for interesting interludes from gardening in the rain over a tea"
What her indoors let you stop just because of rain, has she stopped the men in white coats collecting the 3 of us then she must be going soft :E

[homonculus]

Hughes 500

I share the concerns about a part time pilot who has never worked with the emergency services being let loose in a helicopter. He may be a competent pilot but the pressure on an individual who has to fly and navigate and task a mission is incredible. I respond to RTCs in a specially modified car after 20 years of intermittent police driving instruction. The medical care is a Doddle compared with the driving. The idea of flying has not surprisingly often crossed my mind but only for a millisecond as I don't think I nor anyone else could do it. Even an experienced HEMS pilot would struggle

However, as someone who is not an armchair commentator, my main concern is not seeing my favourite ship burning in a field but the hassle of dealing with this chap on scene. Every member of the emergency service has a designated role. I need every fireman to help me with trapped drivers and passengers not wander off to get unnecessary equipment out of a 500

Don't need him. Don't need his equipment. Don't need his passengers. Period

[md 600 driver]

homonculus

I don't understand you ,this guy is a cpl he has been trained to carry passengers and cargo he is licenced to do this so why can't he carry passengers and tools
Is not like he's going to fight fires or medevac

[SilsoeSid]

Sorry Pitts, you'll have to enlighten us to more of Capt. Filippo Fornassi's history. I know he was an instructor and died in this incident NH90 Crashes into Italian Lake (http://www.flyafrica.info/forums/showthread.php?11742-NH90-Crashes-into-Italian-Lake)

Did he have a history such as that B-52 pilot, or simply :mad: up on the day, just like DK?

[cyclic flare]

I'm only a ppl I've not learned the answers to the questions yet although I'm half way through it. Cpl V Ppl it's all about time in the saddle please don't think for one minute your safer with a cpl. I've flown with dozens of em

Massive difference in flying standards I've got ppl students who wipe the floor with cpl and likewise.

Just cos you have learned the answers dose not change your flying ability

Time in the saddle and that it full stop

[Pittsextra]

Hi - I have no idea the history of this pilot (although as we can read in the Harrogate Gazelle accident you only need one shunt, one mistake) - but aerobatics or display flying is not just a case of having a go and seeing how it works out.

I'm not sure if or where the accident report is but it would make an interesting read.

Some years ago a Hawk training jet solo demo crashed after performing a poorly executed barrel roll. The pilot was a well respected BAe test pilot who sadly died.

The point I guess is that even the most highly trained and experienced guys make errors. If you look at the 2012 helicopter accident reports actually there are more CPL holders than PPL listed - in fact at least 2 of the PPL holders listed have several 1000 hours experience.. Not just wealthy low time joyriders.

[SilsoeSid]

I didn't think anyone was getting too personal here. I'm sure JP has suggested this trial with all good intent and with no other motives or agendas.

What many here mis-assume is that those 'in the business' don't think he should be doing this because he is 'an amateur'.
Wrong, the concerns are purely of safety, attitude and the likelyhood of pushing things too far, rather than lose face. We don't want him to end up in one of the many situations talked about in CRM classes.

I think we could even put up with a few bending of the rules, as they can be sorted out later, what we can't put up with is too many of the cheese slices lining up without anything being said.

Perhaps it can be put even more simply by saying that some of us can see situations arise before they become an incident without the use of google and rose tinted glasses, thrown in amongst the culture here of defending 'one of your own'. Mistakes are made regardless of where we trained, what our background is, what particular stream of aviation we follow and wether or not we are required to be current CRM etc.

The Dame Shirley episode highlights that even with a very simple A-B mission (Glastonbury to Battersea) JP has shown the temptation of pushonitiss and a denial regarding the seriousness of a situation, which surely must raise alarm bells.

If that flight had a dying child trapped in a car at point B (the hotel), just how much further do we think he would have pushed on...maybe that extra 200m towards the diversion destination at Pennyhill Park Hotel ...straight into the wires inbetween the sixth form college and the hotel?

We don't really care if the trial is a success or not, those in the Fire & Rescue world will decide if it goes further, what we here care about is losing a fellow aviator for a silly avoidable reason that has probably been covered in the last 15 pages.

[SilsoeSid]

Pitts;

post 290Personally I'd say this mil pilot was the biggest ego I've ever read about.

post 297I have no idea the history of this pilot


Please explain your first comment ref Capt.Fornassi who, may I remind you, was an instructor and probably not as you put just 'having a go and seeing how it works out'!

[SilsoeSid]

A couple of things;

H500; not that IMHO this is a PPL/CPL issue, because as cyclic flare says its about experience not the type of licence, can you confirm what licences JP actually has. I get the feeling it is CPL(A) and PPL(H) as oppossed to CPL(A) & CPL(H)

Anyone; In reference to the operating site, is planning permission required to allow movements of this nature?

[homonculus]

Md 600 driver

Why is this different from a scheduled task to say a wedding? Well......

So Mr P has just got home and his wife is hassling him about some bills and the kids are fighting and he opens his mail to find someone is suing Him and his blood pressure is rising when the phone goes. A child is going to burn to death unless he can get somewhere north of town x ASAP. Control isn't sure of he location but will update en route

Not sure about fuel and weather is unchecked but only minutes to spare and nobody to help. The adrenaline is flowing and he is dashing around desperate to save seconds.

And half way there control changes the location

And wants updates on his capabilities

And on arrival there is nowhere en scene to put down

And it is getting dark

Now add in the need to stop en route and pick up manpower and equipment which can't be strapped down, and there is no time to brief them, plus all the other uncertainties that occur in reality and I submit is isn't the recipe for a safe flight. I suspect many FW colleagues would have gone home a long time ago.

In HEMS missions we have taskers, ground crew, checked aircraft, pilots on standby with no other duties, 2 pilots or at least a paramedic to help with nav, a crew used to disembarking safely with purpose designed equipment, and emergency services en scene who need them and have been briefed about the interface

Sorry, the more I think of it the more I worry. Even after 20 years of supporting ambulance services by road I need to control my emotions and tell my controller not infrequently to leave me alone to get on with the driving. Unlike my colleagues who drive front line ambulances full time, I know the occasional call is due to someone in real trouble and assessed by my colleagues en scene. Believe me the pressure is on

[Thomas coupling]

Things are starting to slide here. Let's recap and correct me if I go off track Hughes500:

Q1: Is JP a CPL.

Q2: Is JP offering his services 'only' as a taxi driver, ie: carrying persons and equipment from a legitimate landing zone to another legitimate landing zone?

Q3: Is JP offering his services to support the fire services across the spectrum: transporting pax/equipment, flying over built up areas to offer aerial support using thermal imagers or/and a comms link, landing inside built up areas to transfer persons/equipment, ferrying pax to and from RTC's, fire bucket, transfer of casualties from a fire......day or night?

Q4: Does JP have 'any' emergency training/experience both aerial or ground based?

There......all said and done without mentioning the "£" word.

[Pittsextra]

Pitts;

post 290
Quote:
Personally I'd say this mil pilot was the biggest ego I've ever read about.
post 297

Quote:
I have no idea the history of this pilot

Please explain your first comment ref Capt.Fornassi who, may I remind you, was an instructor and probably not as you put just 'having a go and seeing how it works out'!

Thats a fair question.

My comment is in relation to the recent threads where we talk about pilots like the one in this thread and the two fatal accidents in Gazelles.

So now you ask if this NH90 pilot has a history of poor airmanship and I don't know. However this display pilot has given himself - as is clearly seen from the footage on YouTube - no margin. Which, in my opinion is an ego thing. Why else do you not give yourself another 200m of height, whatever?? There is just no excuse for it. Its an airshow, for fun with people who are going to be impressed regardless of the -200/300m.

Quite aside from the regard for others on board the helicopter and the display area over people in small watercraft. Planning seems to be lacking, especially when you look at the whole of the display which is actually has very few elements on the vertical line.

As I said the accident report would be an interesting read if anyone has it.

[Thomas coupling]

Pittsextra: try hard to keep it together bud. Stick with the subject matter and stop wandering off somewhere bizarre which has absolutely no bearing on this thread.....you can do it...
Reminder: Look into my eyes....look into my eyes........................ you are in a thread discussing untrained, under qualified, wealthy business man trying to fly as a fully paid up emergency services pilot.
You are not in a thread dealing with judgement during an air display???

Stay focussed....look into my eyes.

[Pittsextra]

TC fair enough... sorry for the thread creep.

[SilsoeSid]

...and with that large post of yours in mind, take a look at Dennis Kenyons crash and are you telling him the same things?

[Al-bert]

Pittsextra - if it's display flying you want to discuss I'm happy to discuss it, perhaps in a seperate thread? I was a helicopter display pilot for a good number of years on both Wessex and Sea King - (oh heck, TTB will be along any minute to call me an anorak!). As TC pointed out lets avoid thread creep.

ps I had the misfortune to sit, rotors turning awaiting departure following my display, on a refuelling spot at RAF Bentwaters while the Frecce Tricolari beat sh1t out of the field in August '88 - unsurprisingly to me they crashed in spectacular fashion the following week at Ramstein. So no, I am under no illusions regarding mil ego's or competance. :hmm:

[One35]

Has JP been sponsoring Police Aviation News?!...

http://www.policeaviationnews.com/Acrobat/201January2012PANews.pdf

EDITORIAL

Regularly within these pages are stories that illustrate some of the yawning differences that can be seen in the industry—of differing values and cultures.
In the UK one man stepped forwards to volunteer his time and resources to help out one local fire department with a helicopter he owns. He is a man with the financial resources to comfortable undertake the limited degree of aid he was offering and on the face of it he was able to display the ability and significant flight hours as well. On a well known professional pilots Internet forum he was vilified for making the offer and many of them, mainly those who did not know him, made negative assumptions about his capabilities as a pilot. Similar negative attitudes can be seen in relation to many modern offers to volunteer in the Kingdom and that includes the fliers of Sky Watch CAP – it is perhaps fortunate that the lifeboats service [RNLI] was set up in more understanding Victorian times or perhaps half the nation would have drowned in the meantime.
Contrast that with the page 18 story from the USA where such public service is common and volunteering for the public good is accepted as the only possible option for many hard pressed local US communities.
Strangely the story from Montana was quoted in the thread that so vilified one Englishman’s offer to provide public service without cost – but to no avail his offer continued to be viewed with suspicion and denigrated just as that of most volunteers.

I do not know which community of fliers has right on its side but I do know which I respect most!

A Happy and prosperous New Year to you all!

Bryn Elliott

Sorry, Bryn but I must respectfully disagree. Speculation as to the chap's motivation aside, we're missing two crucial elements here: selection and training. Having so many 'holes in the cheese' lined up before a rotor blade even turns is worrying and must surely ring some alarm bells.

Cheers,

135

[SilsoeSid]

I notice that the same edition of PAN has a tribute to the original Thunderbirds creator, Gerry Anderson.

For the record Bryn, noone here is questioning JP's flying skills or capabilities as a pilot, just the whole mindset of the project.

How ironic that one of the incidents reported in that edition involved CFIT after encountering bad weather, killing the pilot and two nurses on board. Possibly a case of pressonitis, something that JP has demonstrated that he is susceptible to. I understand your sentiment in the editorial and how bad we are to critisise a volunteer, but I cannot help thinking about the two innocent firefighters that would also be on board.

[Hughes500]

TC

Sorry I dont know the answer to some of your questions. Yes in principle the idea of having private pilots doing a para military job is not great but given a controlled set of circumstances and i mean controlled set I dont see the problem.
The main reason I have played Devils advocate is the so called professional people getting off their high horse, I am afraid you in particular, as you seem to have a chip on your shoulder about wealthy people. On the other hand SS I respect highly as he can keep it under control. Have passed on at SS's request / advice to JP

[Thomas coupling]

Hughes'y 500: obviously not listening to a word I have said. I'm saying this one last time and that's it for me with this loser's thread, especially now Bryn Elliot's involved.
IT'S NOT ABOUT THE MONEY, NEVER HAS BEEN. IT'S ABOUT HIS ATTITUDE. Please please get this into your thick head.:ugh:
Homonculus: very well said - perfect post describing the set up here.

SS:: Good luck.

[PANews]

Ouch TC!

I do not think I can add to this, my opinion is now posted [and rejected] so that is fine but I, like most of you, have not really changed my opinion greatly - we may have to agree to disagree and after all mine is an opinion of a non-pilot so worth less perhaps in this forum.

Thanks for the 'outing' ...... :O and the PR.:D

[homonculus]

Hughes 500

Just how do you come to the 'controlled set of circumstances' conclusion?

I wont repeat my last posting, but this is an ad hoc emergency call out which has not been even tried before in the UK.

I am not calling the gentelman's flying capabilities into question as I have never seen them. I am questioning whether any person can do this totally uncontrolled response safely. When I read report after report from FW pilots about being given a hard time by airport security and how this upsets them to the extent they cant safely fly a multi pilot A to B commercial flight, I flag up how this gentleman's mind set can be compatible with flying a 500

[Francis Frogbound]

As someone with the odd few hours flying SAR and HEMS with Sir Niall Dementia of this thread, and the one who signs the cheques to the CAA for the operation I currently work on I have formally requested the CAA to launch an investigation into Mr P's operation. This thread is one thing, CPL holder or not, rich or not Mr P is untrained in what he wants to do and if it goes wrong not only will lives be at risk, but I have no doubt we will be on the receiving end of yet another knee jerk reaction from the authorities and yet more restrictions will be applied to the regulated and highly professional operations which work so well in this country.

As someone said earlier the boss of Wiltshire fire service needs to be shown this thread and told to grow up and get some proper guidance, or is this, to him at least an exercise in penis waving in front of all the other local fire service chiefs?

[chopjock]

Al-bert
To be useful, I say again USEFUL, to an emergency service you need to be available at all times, day and night, in all weathers

I guess some air ambulance outfits are not useful then.

And do the police helicopters really take off and operate in all wx?

[[email protected]]

Chopjock - they are always available during the hours they are allowed to operate and if called will respond - BUT, if the weather is outside limits it is outside limits and they won't go (unlike, it would appear, some US HEMS operators).

Being useful to the emergency services doesn't mean launching in all weathers - even on SAR we have have the option to say no if the weather is too bad to achieve the aim. We might try a bit harder to get to the scene but it is because we have a fully IFR capable aircraft and a 4 man crew (with 2 pilots) to spread workload between - AA and police are single pilot.

I don't know how many times you have to hear from people who do this stuff professionally that Mr Paxman's idea is fraught with danger but he really doesn't have a clue about what he is trying to do.

As TC points out, JP has a big wallet and a bigger ego and should keep well away from playing at emergency services. If he really wants to do it then he should get an ATPLH and some twin time and apply for a HEMS or police job.

I am very disappointed by the editorial - is the editorial team really so unaware of the potential issues with JP's plan?

[chopjock]

they are always available during the hours they are allowed to operate and if called will respond - BUT, if the weather is outside limits it is outside limits and they won't go

I presume the same would apply to JP.

A lot of you on here are saying, well what if it's dark? well what if the wx is bad? what if it's too complicated?

Well I might say, what if it's not dark? what if it's acceptable wx? what if it's a do able mission?
Hell he might save a life, he might not. He will not have to respond if it's too dangerous.

[Hummingfrog]

Chopjock

Hell he might save a life, he might not.

or as most of the experienced rescue service pilots on here are thinking

"hell he might kill himself and pax or he might not"

If you want sound medical advice you would go to a doctor not someone who has done a work first aid course - why is it so difficult for some people to realise that the advice the experts are giving to this person is don't do it - you don't have the experience!!

HF

[Al-bert]

HF,
relax, we've done our best, put the kettle on, maybe pour ourselves a malt. Let's just sit back now and let the Walts, Wannabees, Huge500 willy wavers and eejits get on with it eh? They'll have a great time impressing their mates (they can afford to buy lots of them too) with tales of derring do.
Now, micro lights and hang gliders. Surely if they were allowed to be armed they could make a significant contribution to UK air defence? Point defence of course, for strategic locations. The Lufwaffe trained on gliders in the thirties I recall and..........:zzz:

[ShyTorque]

I sat in a newly opened restaurant at lunchtime thinking about this situation.

The restaurant was struggling badly, with insufficient staff to cope, to the extent that two couples on adjacent tables to us got up and walked out, muttering, without even getting to order, not even a drink.

I began to think why the service was so slow. I initially thought that I could have done a better job of running the place myself, or at least as good as this lot.

Then I thought - so why don't I open a little restaurant myself? I could do it, I'm sure. I can cook, people always like the meals I make. I can manage people, I have a modicum of business sense. So, let's go for it!!

Then, reality kicked in. I'm not a trained or experienced chef. I'd be fine doing a simple meal, but when the chips were down (sorry about that pun) and the pressure (cooker) was on, I'd foul up in short order (sorry, they just keep on coming), simply because I don't have any specialist professional knowledge to fall back on.

I'd be fine flipping burgers but NOT trying to attempt the fancy, high pressure stuff. At least, not unless I got some proper training and experience working alongside true professional chefs, in a proper restaurant.

Until then, I'll stick to flying rotary for a living, as I have been doing for over three decades. And flipping burgers at home.

I think there is a certain parallel here. ;)

[[email protected]]

It would be a recipe for disaster;)

He should flan it at the earliest opportunity rather than making a big mis-steak and currying on!

He would be in the crepe with the CAA if he mixed it with the big boys and got a trifle confused - he might end up with egg on his face......

Enough already.........Ed!

[SilsoeSid]

On the way to work this evening, after dropping Sid Jnr off at hockey training, I realised that the members of our hockey club are probably more aware of the dangers for example, of landing a helicopter on a perfect LS such as a clear well lit large astro turf pitch than Bryn, Pitts, chop and all the others in JP's support group.

[One35]

Ok, it looks like we've reached an impasse here. I'm guessing that unless an external body (CAA, FBU...) stop the trial, it will go ahead as planned in March (?) this year. With that in mind, how about a few pointers from those of us who do this sort of thing for a living to make the scene and the airspace above it as safe as we can?

I'll kick off with:

Approaching scene - We have an air desk that liaises with ARCCK, HMCG and the local police ASU. They give us a heads up if other assets are expected on scene. If the fire service are unable to do this for you, blind calls on 123.1 may be worthwhile.

Landing Site Selection - Consider any other aircraft that may be arriving on-scene after you. It'll make sense to drop the fire teams at the site closest to the incident with the best access but if you can then relocate to free the spot for HEMS or SAR then we would be grateful.

Roads - Remember that both carriageways must be shut prior to landing; not just the one you are approaching. The rules state that it must be closed by either the police or highways agency and that you must be able to confirm the closure. If you don't have a TETRA fit in the aircraft, the fire service should be able to relay this info to you from scene although it may take a little longer. The process at rural, remote roads is a little more relaxed but of course comes down to the commanders judgement once overhead scene.

If any / all of this is obvious and I'm teaching granny to suck eggs then great, no harm done, but please take it in the spirit that its meant. The incidents that JP will be attending are our office and we want that office to be safe and run smoothly.

Anyone else got anything?

Cheers,

135:ok:

[SilsoeSid]

Just wondering, can anyone confirm if the trial days of operation are going to be based from Caversham or Lower Mill?

Don't want to go booking a holiday for a natural, relaxing, luxurious, ultimate holiday escape, in an area of outstanding natural beauty with a frickin' helicopter making lots of noise at all times of the day!


Any links to which International Waterski Championships JP won?

[SilsoeSid]

135;

With that in mind, how about a few pointers from those of us who do this sort of thing for a living to make the scene and the airspace above it as safe as we can?

I'll kick off with:
.
.
Roads - Remember that both carriageways must be shut prior to landing; not just the one you are approaching. The rules state that it must be closed by either the police or highways agency and that you must be able to confirm the closure. If you don't have a TETRA fit in the aircraft, the fire service should be able to relay this info to you from scene although it may take a little longer. The process at rural, remote roads is a little more relaxed but of course comes down to the commanders judgement once overhead scene.


Well, that sounds simple and straight forward enough, although there can be a littler bit more to take into consideration before landing on roads;

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/cap612.pdf


Chapter 10 Guidelines for Landing of Helicopters on Roads

1 Introduction
1.1 Whilst the safety of a helicopter and its passengers remains the responsibility of the Pilot In Command (PIC) the police have overall responsibility for scene management at all land-based incidents and on roads particularly in respect of the control and safety of all road users.

1.2 The aim of these guidelines is to permit helicopter-borne emergency services to fulfil their function with due regard to maintaining a realistic balance of safety.

2 Definitions
a) Roads
A road is a highway (including motorways and dual carriageways) and any other road to which the public has access and includes bridges over which a road passes.

b) Secure
An area where entry by vehicles and persons is prevented and in which the pilot can land safely at his discretion.

c) Congested Areas
In relation to a city, town or settlement, means any area which is substantially used for residential, industrial, commercial or recreational purposes.

3 Guidelines
3.1 Helicopters will not land on a road unless the following requirements can be complied with:

a) Whenever possible the helicopter shall first land adjacent to the road.

b) Where a landing is made on a road it must first be secured by the police (the only exceptions to this are listed in paragraph 3.1 f)).

c) Prior to landing on the road, radio or verbal communication must have taken place with the police (via the other emergency services, Rescue Co-ordination Centres (RCC) or ATC, where necessary) to confirm the road is secure and the pilot has authority to exercise his discretion to land.

d) Minimum amount of time shall be spent on the road by the helicopter sufficient to fulfil its emergency function. If required to shut down, consideration should be given to subsequent failure to start.

e) On a motorway, dual carriageway or two-way road, when the helicopter is landing and taking off, the unaffected carriageway should be closed at all times.

f) A helicopter may only land on a road at an unsecured site where the police are not in attendance when all the following criteria are met:

i) The road shall be in remote rural areas outside congested areas;

ii) There shall be no threat to persons or vehicles on the ground from the
helicopter or its associated presence;

iii) The pilot must satisfy himself that there is no danger to the aircraft from
persons or vehicles on the road;

iv) Only in very exceptional circumstances will this apply to motorways and dual carriageways and then only where criteria set out at Appendix A can be fully complied with;

v) This action may be exercised only when no alternative is available;

vi) Pilots should avoid landing in school or other play grounds or areas where children might be confined or suddenly emerge. The practice of using the aircraft presence or public address system to clear children from a site should not be utilised. Pilots should find an alternative site.

4 Additional Considerations
4.1 Preservation of Evidence

Police officers at the scene and pilots of helicopters must be aware of the effect of rotor downwash on loose articles and debris. This is of particular importance where such articles are crucial evidence and may require further scientific or forensic examination. The preservation of such evidence either in situ or following removal to a safe location must be taken into consideration by police officers at the scene before an aircraft lands.

4.2 Noise Levels
Police officers and other emergency service personnel must be aware that
helicopters generate substantial noise, particularly during landing and take-off and that verbal communication (either personal or radio) may well be affected.

4.3 Danger from Glass
Pilots and emergency service personnel are reminded of the danger of rotor
downwash dislodging broken glass and other loose debris, particularly from damaged buildings, at bomb scene incidents.

4.4 Emergency Service Vehicles
Police officers in charge at a scene should be mindful that Emergency Service
vehicles need to position in close proximity to the incident, particularly the Fire and Ambulance Services, and to be aware that hoses and ancillary equipment (including lighting) could well be affected by rotor downwash. Access to the scene should therefore not be obstructed by the helicopter.

4.5 The CAA will set the requirements for recording landings made by civil aircraft on roads.

5 General Safety
5.1 Emergency Service personnel must be made aware of the dangers of working with helicopters. This should include:

a) rotor downwash and associated flying debris;

b) main and tail rotor blades;

c) hot exhausts and jet efflux;

d) noise; and

e) effects of sloping ground.

Supplement to Chapter 10
Landing at a Site on a Dual Carriageway or Motorway Which has not Been Secured
Guidance to Pilots

A landing shall only be made on a dual carriageway or motorway during daylight hours when all the following criteria can be met. No landing shall ever be made by night.

a) The helicopter shall only remain on the ground for the minimum time needed to disembark passengers and then go airborne again, until the site is secure. The aircraft shall not be shut down or loiter on the ground.

b) The carriageway is blocked and all traffic on the affected carriageway is stopped and unable to proceed along the carriageway or on a normal road.

c) Any reduction of visibility at ground level, due to mist, precipitation, spray, smoke or other effects shall be taken into account to ensure the helicopter can see and be seen in order to avoid any risk of collision with persons, vehicles or structures.

d) The chosen site must be such as to ensure that the effects of rotor downwash do not blow around even light debris at the scene. This should include grit, spilt fuel and large masses of dust or sand. Pilots shall be given minimum distance from a scene which will prevent such disturbance which must allow for the effects of wind and reasonable margins for error in distance judgement.

e) Great caution should be taken during approach, landing and take-off, to monitor the road and its surrounds to ensure previously unseen hazards do not suddenly appear which may create a danger to themselves in the aircraft.

f) Whilst this is not a comprehensive list, it identifies areas which, if addressed, will minimise risk. It may be expanded under locally agreed procedures developed by the emergency services and set out in the operator's Flight Operations Manual. This list of criteria must not be reduced.

g) The pilot must ensure that all reasonable efforts are made to inform the police control room of his intention to land at an unsecured site. This may be done through his own operational controlling agency. Unless locally required, no approval is required to carry out the landing.



I see the good intent of your post 135, but after Bryn's editorial, what makes you think 'they' will start listening to 'us' now?

'A few pointers' that sounds very similar to 'a little knowledge is dangerous'!

However, I'm sure all the relevant issues have been discussed between JP, The Fire & Rescue Services and the CAA, with all relevant exemptions sought.

[thedandyfireman]

To quote Hughes 500 - "Question for you, your daughter is in an RTA, The Brigade has no cutting tools the only way is getting them is Mr Paxton's helicopter so presumably you would say NO".

Sorry, but every frontline fire engine, (not 'specials' like turntable ladders), carries cutting gear, so your imaginary scenario just would not happen. What do you think we carry in all those lockers? As I have stated previously, Avon did a carefully arranged trial, carefully arranged as in the aircraft could land right next to the incident. Because that happens ALL the time, people who have RTC's always have them in places you can land a helicopter right next to. Oh, no they don't. BUT, you CAN get a fire engine close to them, and, if they are off the beaten track, we have 4x4's to carry equipment. Or we can call on the services of a professional organisation, like the RAF, for example. You can read my previous post for other exapmles about why the fire service doesn't need helicopters. You need to be supporting frontline fire services, NOT vanity projects. It's us that'll save you in the event of a crash, not Stringfellow Hawke........

[chopjock]

BUT, you CAN get a fire engine close to them, and, if they are off the beaten track, we have 4x4's to carry equipment.

Does that include narrow country lanes that are blocked by traffic, floods, snow and ice etc?

[Thomas coupling]

SilsoeSid, I think One35 was being kind with his post about showing the complexities of flying an emergency services helicopter. But as you have reminded all the wannabees - it is far from simple. Don't hold your breath guys, these wannabees mean business!
ChopJock - your responses are beyond cretinous. Surely you are doing this for a laugh / to get a response? Another mind numbing post from what I can only assume is a stooge. Who are you really???

PaNews - I didn't "out" you, the previous post put your name up in neon lights!!
A reminder - you are the owner and editor of PANews: police aviation news. Why is there a yellow SeaKing on your front page?
Secondly - your getting soft in your old age. As an ex cop yourself, how would you feel if a do-gooder decided he/she could form their own police force without training or experience, because they could afford to do it
? They could buy a fleet of cars and respond on certain occasions to 'assist' with a car pursuit or bank robbery perhaps? It's not about their talent (they might hire ex rallye drivers!), it's not about their equipment. It's the fact they genuinely think they can do this without any research.

[homonculus]

I dont think chappies who 'assist' with bank robberies care about the views of others TC

[Al-bert]

This whole debate reminds me of my first time as a member (RAF rep) on the North Wales Mountain Rescue Committee (NWMRC). There were some comfortably off (NB not rich!) chaps in the Clwyd area who did a bit of skiing together and had the odd parachute jump under their belts too. Because one winter a few cars got snowed in crossing the moors, nothing serious, no-one died, this 'band of brothers' applied to the MRC for membership, their scenario being that if this happened again they could be air dropped, with skis, by RAF Hercules in order to render assistance (I presume to tuck in blankets, refill flasks, that sort of thing). Of course they would require an officially approved RESCUE badge for their jump suits! Naturally, there was much mirth and they were turned down by the guys with beards and big boots.
Fast forward fifteen or so years and I was once again on the NWMRC. The paraski group had revised its plans ie. no skis or parachutes and were applying for membership once again, this time under a new name and with more modest modus operandi. The stumbling block now, which occupied the hour before I nodded off, the design of the badge! :bored:

[thedandyfireman]

Quote chopjock - "Does that include narrow country lanes that are blocked by traffic, floods, snow and ice etc?"

I'll humour you. If one end is blocked by traffic, we will send another truck the other way, or, go around ourselves. Far quicker than landing ahalf a mile away and ferrying the equipment needed to the incident. I have never in twenty years, NOT been able to reach an RTC with a normal front-line fire engine, rural areas and urban, let alone a 4x4, (which, incidently, are rather good at moving through floods, snow and ice etc). Your average motorist generally moves out of the way when they hear our sirens and see our blue lights. Even on narrow country lanes. Parking on narrow streets on the other hand IS a problem, but, I don't think even Mr Paxton is going to help there. Unless he intends to let us abseil out of his aircraft ala 'Who Dares Wins'?

[One35]

Sid, I can't disagree with your post but TC got my drift. Although, on-line line training for wannabe emergency services pilots....? There might be a gap in the market here! ;)

PANews, regarding your 'outing' comment. In post #308 I linked to your editorial that you'd already published and signed. The only connection with your PPRuNe handle was made by yourself when you responded a couple of posts later. My apologies if I've missed something but it does appear to be a bit of an own-goal there, old boy.

Anyway...tea to be drunk. Fly safe all.

135

[SilsoeSid]

Bryn, how can you possibly accuse anyone of 'outing' you when you say;
Guilty. I was selling 'me' and digging for stories for the next few issues..... Retired policeman does not have to mean brain dead and PAN is the whiz in my life. Nearly everything I write has my name on it because I am not ashamed of it [even when found wrong] and I project that attitude onto PPRuNe. That is why my handle is very transparent. Note also that PACRotors has a similar policy. I doubt we are the only 'press' around PPRuNe.
http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/19089-helitech-2001-disappointing.html#post196014

[SilsoeSid]

PANewsI notified Sky Watch of the PPRuNe interest in their operation and pasted some of the earlier text over. Thiis was received this morning.

Dear Bryn ... thanks for the info.
http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/74627-police-officers-commandeering-civ-helos-opinion.html#post708791

:ugh::ouch:

[PANews]

Lighten up lads, we all know who I am for all the reasons quoted and you seem to have taken my comment far too seriously [again]!

Bit of a 'gulp' that someone looked back to 1999 for that quote...... s*** was I alive then? Obviously bored sitting in a crew room waiting to fly on a mission that you will be much too late for.

Yes, whoever you all are, please lighten up!

[SilsoeSid]

Lightening up as requested :cool:;

PANewsObviously bored sitting in a crew room waiting to fly ...

Correct.

"after all mine is an opinion of a non-pilot so worth less perhaps in this forum".

Because if you were, you'd understand why!

I believe this is closet to your location;
LONDON LUTON EGGW 162258Z 1700/1724 35003KT CAVOK BECMG 1700/1703 0300 FZFG BKN001 PROB30 TEMPO 1703/1710 1500 BR SCT002 BECMG 1710/1713 6000 NSW FEW003 BECMG 1716/1719 2000 BR PROB30 TEMPO 1719/1722 0300 FZFG BKN001 BECMG 1722/1724 13010KT 8000 NSW BKN010 :

:ok:

[Hughes500]

Dandyfireman
I sit on the fence between the 2 sides here, in one sense what he is doing is wrong in another what he is doing is positive. The carrying of special cutting gear ( US style battery kit so highly portable) request came from The Fire Brigade who have been talking to him and perhaps trialling it. So dont get on your high horse. Unlike some on this site who assume he is a prat because of what he is looking at doing I have actually asked the horses mouth as to what is going on. Now why would that Brigade ask for that ? I dont know you would be the expert, perhaps like battery powered tools you can take them some distance from either hydraulic or electrical power. As for 4 wheel drive working rather well you obviously have no experience of them, before you go off on one I live in the middle of a National Park when it is ice and snow they are only marginally better than 2 wheel drive unless fitted with snow tyres. Off road on wet grass /mud they are crap again unless fitted with proper off road tyres.If you dont believe me come to one of my wet fields, less than 10 degree slope no mud just saturated grass and see how far you get uphill in your brigades 4 wheel drive with 70/30 tyres on, I will tell you now less than 100 m when i will have to come and tow you out with a tractor. To quote Devon and Somerset brigades view of the floods 4 wheel drives are not amphibious Again like all things they have to be used in the correct way and yes trained to use the kit. If that all goes ahead although I would still have reservations it might be workable. PM me if you would like to come down with a 4 wheel drive I am about 1.5 hours drive away

[thedandyfireman]

Hughes500, I can only assume that the brigade are asking him to do what he is doing because he is offering to do it for free, and the chief can use it to make cuts to frontline services, as our budgets are being cut. There is an agenda somewhere. I explained earlier that, yes, the kit may be light and portable, but, you still need the blokes to use it. I believe he will only be carrying two firemen, so, with the best will in the world, you CAN cut someone out of a wreck with two of you, but you can kiss goodbye to the 'Golden Hour'. It isn't just a case of just cutting the roof off, as some people think. There is stabilisation, glass management, trauma care and BLS, (if we arrive before the ambo's), constant checking of stabilisation, etc, etc, etc. That is just not possible with two of you. There is a reason we arrive mob-handed! He also has to pick the crew up? That will take time. We pride ourselves on our speed of response, and, in the time it takes him to do that, the local crew would be there 'Getting to work'. Incidently, my brigade, (Avon), has dismissed the idea of a helicopter, if I understand what the chief has said correctly. London did the same, so, there must be a common denominator. Anyway, the only times we have ever used a helicopter in my twenty years service, the police let us use theirs, and the RAF flew in a SeaKing, which during a conversation with the crew, they said they're always happy to help us out. Regards to 4x4's, the ones we have are fitted with off-road tyres, and all us EFADS drivers with a 4x4 on station have been on a course to drive them. You're correct, they aren't amphibious, but we also have boats. One permanently docked at Bristol docks and a RIB at Bath and Bedminster fire stations that can be towed anywhere. I hope my explanation helps? Nice idea and offer, and I don't know the man, so I can't comment on what he's like as a person, but, I really think that if he is doing this for altruistic reasons, then he should be looking at donating the money to his local air ambulance or, maybe patient transfer in his aircraft? (Don't shoot me down in flames if that's a daft suggestion!). Thanks for your kind offer of coming down in the 4x4, (I drive an old Toyota 4x4 - with off-road tyres), but, I'd rather have a go in your helicopter! They've fascinated me since I was a kid, and I'm a frustrated helicopter pilot! Never lucky enough to join the RAF and Navy, and my Mum would'nt let me join the Army Air Corps! So, if you ever need a passenger! Actually, that goes for any of you near the Bristol area - if you ever need a passenger, PM me. You let me have a ride in your helicopter, I'll show you and your kids around the fire station. Can't say fairer than that:ok:!!

[ShyTorque]

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned that any police helicopter, which may already be called to a serious RTA, can also land and transfer people and equipment.

In UK, all police ASU aircraft are twin engined, so they can comply with Class A performance requirements, have exemptions for Rule 5 etc and the crews are already very well trained and experienced.

[Hughes500]

Dandy

You will always be welcome if you are ever passing in Devon drop me a PM, quite often in the Bristol area. Couldnt agree more about a hidden agenda, interestingly JP phoned me last night for some advice not sure on what as i was out on my mountain bike so he is phoning today. Will try and get some more info for you. I realise that you can only take a few guys in the machine. I have managed to get 3 guys in mine when fighting Dartmoor fires, they were mighty glad to get a lift to the fire rather than walking the 2 miles in their kit. Mind you did 5 shuttles dropping them off at different points so even though it is a " toy" to some it is better than nothing ! Even more pleased at the end of 6 hours beating, with me dropping water everywhere, for the lift back !:ok:

[Hughes500]

Shy

Very rude of me meant to reply to your latest, do the brigades not speak to you at all or is there the argument of who is paying for this ?

[SilsoeSid]

When JP and his helicopter, kit and pax arrive at the incident, what happens when that inevitable question is asked...."Once we get them out, can you take them to the hospital?"

[ShyTorque]

Shy
Very rude of me meant to reply to your latest, do the brigades not speak to you at all or is there the argument of who is paying for this?

No, they don't speak to me and I see no reason why they should. I'm not in a position to offer the Fire Brigades use of a helicopter.

[Hughes500]

SS
now thats a really good question, I would hope that he would never arrive in the first place as I am assuming ( rightly or wrongly) he would be " tasked" only as last resort. I suppose that then brings you back to the original question.
I suppose one would be very heartless to say no at the scene but you are quite right to ask, havent actually thought of that ! Interstingly as it is then a matter of saving life is the ANO actually suspended ? Now I am NOT using that as an excuse to let him do anything it is just a question ( please dont shoot the messanger !) As one gets deeper into it the more problems appear, what started as a generous offer which appeared to be a relatively simple task could end with all sorts of problems, to excuse the pun at the moment a bit of a snowball effect.

[Al-bert]

:ugh:As one gets deeper into it the more problems appear, what started as a generous offer which appeared to be a relatively simple task could end with all sorts of problems,

I think one or two of us might have mentioned that Hughes500! :D

[Hughes500]

Al-bert
I do realise that but I only defended JP from so rather nasty personal comments from people who should know better at the start of the thread. All boils down to what the " sops are" if it goes ahead

[thedandyfireman]

Thanks for the offer, Hughes500, you may well end up regretting it!! Regards to him taking the casualty to hospital, one of our brigade's trucks waited so long for an ambulance, they loaded the casualty onboard and took him themselves. They, or rather the OIC got slaughtered! That's cracking what you did with the Dartmoor fire. Did you pay for it yourself? The fuel and whatever else I mean? Fantastically public sprirted, and just the sort of thing that Mr Paxton should do, not trying to provide an emergency response. I HATE grass fires, and anything to make them easier'll get my vote every time.

[Al-bert]

Hughes500

I'm sure that none of the naysayers meant to be 'nasty' to JP. It's just that when you fly (or have done) emergency helos as a professional, for many years, the pitfalls and 'what ifs' are blindingly obvious. We can all construct a hypothetical instance where JP or a.n.other could be useful but it's a pretty long shot and cannot be relied upon, plus, a well meaning amateur, no matter how proficient as a pilot, would most likely just get in the way at a major incident due to lack of multi agency training and comms and differant, possibly more restrictive, SOP's - however, I am minded of the evacuation from Dunkirk and the part played there by amateurs so......keep up the good work :ok:

and another thing - we have all come across 'rescue badge walts' (see my earlier entry on this thread re North Wales Airborne Ski Patrol) and I'm guessing JP was (possibly unfairly) tarred with the same brush? ;)

[[email protected]]

Hughes 500 - if it was the Dartmoor fire I am thinking of(20 Mar 2011), I was in the Sea King that was tasked to locate and rescue a school party believed to be trapped by the fire. They weren't but we ended up flying the fire chief for an airborne assessment of how the fire was spreading.

It is interesting that we were tasked there for one purpose and not the other, possibly because the fire service didn't think to ask or they were turned down by the ARCCK.

[AnFI]

Crab - was the weather bad? night?

[[email protected]]

It was early morning and still dark when we got there - the brightness of the fire meant NVG ops were tricky. There was some low cloud and fog about IIRC, but it was difficult to tell the fog from the smoke of the fire. It was daylight and improved conditions by the time Hughes500 (if it was the same event) pitched up.

[pplh]

Without necessarily wishing to resurrect this thread I thought it would only be right to share the news that the man at the centre of this debate has sadly suddenly passed away - BBC reporting that Jeremy Paxton died aged just 53 after a heart attack on Tuesday evening. Thoughts are with his family and children.

BBC News - Wiltshire 'flying fire engine' pilot Jeremy Paxton dies (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-21371552)

[SilsoeSid]

Thoughts with family and friends.
:(

[toptobottom]

Shocking and sad. He was doing what he believed to be a good thing. RIP.
:sad:

[sycamore]

Let us all hope that he was not overstressed by his endeavour to be a `Good Samaritan`.
RIP,JP

[Thomas coupling]

Very sorry to hear this. He may have been misguided, but he was certainly a colourful character by all accounts. The fraternity will be a poorer place without him. RIP JP.

[Peter Hugh Pigott]

For the past twenty years I have been flying both helicopters and fixed wing aircraft during the bush fire season in the Blue Mountains National Park surrounding my home West of Sydney Nsw Australia.I have my own helipad and have incredible support from neighbours and appreciation for years of help without cost to the the Bush Fire People. It is very helpful also for the image of the Helicopter industry. Yengo