Fatal reported Central Otago, NZ

[Te_Kahu]

One person is believed to have died in a helicopter crash near Wanaka this evening.

An owner of the farm where the helicopter crashed said one person had been found dead at the scene.

It was not known if any one else was on board.

Inspector Alan Weston of police southern communications said they received a report of a crash at 8.30pm and sent emergency services to the area to search for the aircraft.

Police near the scene of the crash said there was at least one person on board at the time of the crash.

Two helicopters with flashlights circled the crash site on the Pisa Range, near Wanaka, this evening.

A medic, and fire officer and two or three land search and rescue staff were on board those helicopters.

Police said a witness had seen the helicopter drop out of the sky after its rotor stopped.

A spokeswoman for Wanaka-based Aspiring Helicopters Alex Ford said the company had sent a helicopter to the scene after a request from police.

Police asked the company to "go in a hurry'' because it was getting dark.

[Te_Kahu]

A female pilot has been killed in a helicopter crash near Wanaka this evening.

The Civil Aviation Authority confirmed the female pilot, the sole occupant and the partner of the operator of the aircraft, died in the crash.

The helicopter was a Robinson R22.

Inspector Alan Weston of police southern communications said they received a report of a crash at 8.30pm and sent emergency services to the area to search for the aircraft.

Two helicopters with flashlights circled the crash site on the Pisa Range, near Wanaka, this evening.

Police said a witness had seen the helicopter drop out of the sky after its rotor stopped.

A spokeswoman for Wanaka-based Aspiring Helicopters Alex Ford said the company had sent a helicopter to the scene after a request from police.

Police asked the company to "go in a hurry'' because it was getting dark.

- Otago Daily Times

:( :sad:

[helops]

...another R22...Very sad :(

[Hedge36]

Another pilot, dolt.

[Te_Kahu]

RIP

A 52-year-old Queenstown woman killed in a helicopter crash on the Pisa Range last night was returning home after dropping off a fellow pilot at Wanaka Airport.

The woman was the only person on board the helicopter when it "just dropped out of the sky" about 8.30pm, Civil Aviation Authority corporate communications manager Mike Richards said.

She was flying a Robinson R22 helicopter, which belonged to a local helicopter company, Mr Richards said.

The woman was believed to be the partner of the company operator.

Police said she and a friend had earlier flown from Queenstown to Wanaka Airport to pick up another light aircraft and then both returned to Queenstown via the Cardrona Valley, one flying the aircraft the other flying the R22 Helicopter.

The friend arrived in Queenstown unaware of any incident involving the R22 Helicopter.

Several witnesses to the crash alerted emergency services. Ambulance, police and fire personnel, along with Land Search and Rescue (LandSAR) volunteers rushed to the scene and established a base in a paddock at Spotburn Station in Cardrona Valley Rd, near the crash site.

The owner of the farm where the helicopter crashed, Ben Gordon, who took emergency services to the scene, said the helicopter crashed about 600m up the Pisa Range as it was heading back to Queenstown from Wanaka along the Pisa Range.

He learned of the accident after Hamish Mackay, who farms on a neighbouring property, saw the crash while he was out on his lawn.

"Apparently, it was flying along the Pisa Range when it just dropped out of the sky," Mr Gordon said.

Conditions were "perfect".

"For some reason, the rotors have stopped and it has just fallen out of the sky, basically. It has hit the ground really hard and left quite an impact ..."

The helicopter was "in bits" and almost unrecognisable.

Senior Constable Nigel Buckingham, of Wanaka, said one witness reported seeing the rotor stop, before the machine "dropped out of the sky" and made a "very hard landing" on the side of the hill.

Two helicopters - one from Wanaka's Aspiring Helicopters and the Otago Regional Rescue Helicopter from Dunedin - with a medic, fire officers and LandSAR volunteers on board, hovered over the crash site for about an hour, using spotlights to search the area, Mr Richards said.

CAA will begin an on-site investigation this morning.

[Motion Lotion]

Cardrona Valley Helicopter Crash: Pilot Killed | Stuff.co.nz (http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/7926126/Killed-chopper-pilot-had-passion-for-flying)



Friends and colleagues of Julian Kramer, known as Julianne, were shocked and saddened to learn the experienced pilot had been killed in a helicopter crash between Wanaka and Queenstown last night.

Wakatipu Aero Club president Adrian Snow said the loss of Kramer would leave a big gap in the club as well as the industry nationwide.

''It's very sad. It's a big loss for the club ... our biggest sympathies obviously go out to the family.''

Kramer preferred to live as a woman by the name of Julianne and was widely known as such.

Kramer ran Air Wakatipu, the commercial division of the Wakatipu Aero Club, and was also chief pilot and instructor.

''He was a very well respected pilot and a very well respected instructor ... Often very good pilots don't make good instructors but he did.''

Pilots came from all over New Zealand and the world to fly in the mountains with Kramer who had developed very good mountain flying and flight training skills, Snow said.

''That is a big experience gap that will be missed by the club and its members and arguably the rest of New Zealand.''

With almost 9000 hours clocked up flying light aircraft, Kramer was an experienced pilot and his death has shocked friends and colleagues, he said.

''Flying was his complete passion. There was nothing else in life for Julian except for aviation. The club is shocked and deeply saddened.''

Born and raised in Queenstown, Kramer was introduced to flying as a youngster and clocked up more than 30 years' flying experience.

''His father Henry was a founding member and is a past president of the Wakatipu Aero Club ... he learnt to fly in a home built aircraft and went on to fly hang-gliders, light aircraft, helicopters and gliders,'' Snow said.

[krypton_john]

High time fixed wing instructor low time rotary wing - can be a dangerous combination especially in a low inertia rotor machine?

[outofwhack]

KryptonJohn: High time fixed wing instructor low time rotary wing - can be a dangerous combination especially in a low inertia rotor machine?

Krypton John,

I find it a little offensive when someone denigrates another persons skills because they have considerable additional skills in another related area.

I suggest a high time fixed wing power pilot, glider pilot, tail-wheel pilot and instructor is much more capable of understanding and adapting to the difference between flying helicopters and fixed wings than someone with no previous flying experience.

I noticed a certain attitude in the industry when I was choosing a helicopter flying school [as an experienced fixed wing pilot]. Just about every school I went to had the opinion that fixed wing time was worthless or worse. I never understood it and I think it totally wrong. Its just another flying machine and you can gather valuable flying experience in any type of aircraft and specially in those that dont rely on an engine and rely on the pilot understanding the air to stay airborne (anyone can drive a motorboat but it takes an extra set of skills to drive a yacht).

As an experienced fixed wing pilot and 600hr rotary I can tell you it is very easy to resist the temptation to fully hold off on landing and maintain skids level.
Only very fresh poorly trained fixed wing pilots might think the proper reaction to a stall is full forward stick. An experienced fixed wing pilot knows that this kind of over-control can result in further stalling but at negative angles of attack and at any airspeed. I can demonstrate a stall in a fixed wing at any speed from zero knots up to Vne.

So, given the experience level of the victim lets not put it down to fixed wing pilots being dangerous in helicopters.

OOW

[Gemini Twin]

I sometimes think anything and a Robbie are a dangerous combination.

[Not Nightowl]

You hit the nail on the head Gemini Twin, R22s are prolific 'cos they're cheap compared to other brands but they're not very forgiving, especially for inexperienced pilots.
In this case however, (according to witnesses, "heard a bang then it crashed", "the rotors stopped") it doesn't seem like how good you are it wasn't a recoverable situation.
When the deer recovery business slowed down in the '80s and it was no longer profitable to run Hughes 500s or even 300s die hard deer chasing pilots switched to R22s as a cheap alternative.
So many accidents followed this transition that Mr. Robinson in California threatened to stop the export of R22s to NZ 'cos his product was getting a bad name.

[krypton_john]

Outofwhack - no denigration intended - where did you read that in my post?

The pilot is a recent PPL(H). My point is that there are engine out reactions for a fixed wing that are the opposite of rotary wing. I believe that this has been a cause of accidents in the past.

Sorry if you find that offensive but my post is simply to remind folks of a safety risk.

[Brian Abraham]

An experienced fixed wing pilot knows that this kind of over-control can result in further stalling but at negative angles of attack and at any airspeed. I can demonstrate a stall in a fixed wing at any speed from zero knots up to Vne.Not a lot of experience being expressed there.

[alouette]

Highly experienced or having less experience...a grave mistake will cost you.:uhoh:

[Scissorlink]

Everyone who thinks R22's are awesome should do the following,

Get up in the cruise pulling around 20-21inches, now snap the throttle closed to simulate an engine failure, DON'T start lowering the collective UNTIL throttle is completely closed. Now as you lower the collective and the RRpm disappears into the sunset (hopefully you'll get in back) think to yourself...should a helicopter with a rotor system with inertia as low as this, even have been certified in the first place ?

[Not Nightowl]

Excellent post Scissorlink, say no more. :D

[CYHeli]

Scissor link, In Shawn Coyle's latest book he describes doing exactly that, but on the ground! With the collective raised to where you are just light on the skids. Snap the throttle closed and lower the collective and count until the RRPM gets to 90%. Now repeat but snap and lower SLOWLY, again counting the difference
Much safer way of doing it than in the air.

[alouette]

Quite alarming!!!

[outofwhack]

Quote:
An experienced fixed wing pilot knows that this kind of over-control can result in further stalling but at negative angles of attack and at any airspeed. I can demonstrate a stall in a fixed wing at any speed from zero knots up to Vne.

Brian Abraham: Not a lot of experience being expressed there.

Brian, do you think there is something wrong with my statement? What?

[Brian Abraham]

outofwhack, your statement
Only very fresh poorly trained fixed wing pilots might think the proper reaction to a stall is full forward stick. An experienced fixed wing pilot knows that this kind of over-control can result in further stalling but at negative angles of attack is so ridiculous as to not be worth commenting on.
I can demonstrate a stall in a fixed wing at any speed from zero knots up to VneThis statement demonstrates you have absolutely no understanding of fix wing aviation, and you are certainly not an individual who has any practical aviation experience.

This is what happens when you attempt a stall at a speed near Vne.

Plane loses its wings at airshow - YouTube

For information, the Va of a Pitts is 134 knots and Vne 176 knots
Like wise, for the Extra 300 Va 140, Vne 220

So please tell us how you are able to stall either of those aircraft at Vne.

[outofwhack]

Brian,

Your responses indicate to me you might not have fully grasped aerodynamics.

I was pointing out that experienced fixed wing pilots, like the accident pilot, know not to use large control inputs when recovering a stall in a fixed wing aircraft and they wont do it when flying helicopters either. I suspect many helicopter pilots think all fixed wing pilots have an overwhelming desire to push the stick full forward if they experience an engine failure.

My answer applies to helicopters as it does to fixed wing aircraft but, for simplicity, lets stay with fixed-wing aircraft for the moment.

It is proven that the stall of a wing happens at a certain angle of attack [usually around 14degrees] and has little to do with the speed of the wing. Lift [and drag] increases as angle of attack increases but as the wing reaches the stall angle the lift drops off rapidly [but drag keeps on increasing].

Flight manuals state stall airspeeds but neglect to say these are valid for 1g 'level flight' conditions only. Unfortunately, this leads some pilots to believe that they are safe as long as they are above the stall speed. If they are in a turn or any accelerating manouevre the angle of attack of the wing is different compared to that angle required for normal flight at 1g. The harder they manouevre the nearer the angle of attack gets to the stall angle.

The more you 'pull G' the more acceleration you are experiencing and all of this is caused by the increased lift due to increased angle of attack.


Aircraft such as the Pitts and the Extra are built extremely strong [20G design limit for the Pitts I believe] and have very large tail surfaces that allow the pilot to induce large angles of attack on a whim. I have many hours in Pitts and know it as an superb aircraft capable of doing exactly what you tell it to do and thus able to make fools of people with a less than complete understanding of aerodynamics.

In a Pitts you can fly at 130knots and pull the stick quickly and firmly all the way back to bring the wings to near the stalling angle. Application of rudder at this instance causes a slight side slip which causes one wing to go past the stall angle reducing that wings lift considerably whilst the other wing is still generating very large lift. This is how a flick roll is performed - one wing is stalled and the other is not - hence a very high roll rate with very high Gs as well. Its really more like a spin performed horizontally. within less than a second you are down to 70knots. You can push forward for a negative flick but -5G is not for the feint hearted.

To demonstrate non-stalled flight at below 1g stall speed imagine being at the top of a poorly performed loop and find you have 20knots airspeed over the top. As long as you dont pull too hard you wont stall - you continue to fly around the top of the loop - this is because you have not gone past the stall angle of the wing. The wing is still producing lift but not enough to take the weight of the aircraft under 1g.

Ofcourse nobody should try and do a stall manouevre at Vne as it could apply lift forces greater than design limits and capable of bending the aircraft or worse. But it is perfectly possible to do it! Hence it is possible to stall at any speed you want!

Most normal aircraft dont have the tail surface area [read authority] of a Pitts or Extra and this keeps them safe from over control. The aircraft in your video loses its wings most likely because it was flying fast and they pulled too hard taking the angle of attack to a large value [but not to stall angle] where they created so much lift they broke the spar.

So, stall occurs at a certain angle of attack and can happen at any airspeed given the right conditions.

With regard to my comment about an inexperienced fixed wing pilot recovering from a stall with full forward stick - its a very bad technique to teach. The Pitts can demonstrate why very nicely. If you were in a Pitts and recovered from an upright stall by putting full forward stick you would simply stall the wings with a negative angle of attack and without perfect control of the rudder you will almost definately end up in an inverted spin needing a recovery altitude of approx 700 feet.
Ofcourse the simplest way to recover from a stall in any aircraft is to reduce the force on the stick - this will reduce the angle of attack of the wing and allow un-stalled flight to continue. Ofcourse if you are still pointing up gravity is going to cause further effects.

The aerodynamics of a spinning rotor after engine failure are far more complex but still subject to the same angle of attack and relative airflow issues. Hopefully I have demonstrated how a rotating airfoil can stall even at normal rpm. Stalls can happen to helicopter blades and even jet turbine blades.

OOW

[Brian Abraham]

With regard to my comment about airspeed if you were in a Pitts and recovered from an upright stall by putting full forward stick you would stall the wings with a negative angle of attack and almost definately end up in an inverted spinOnly if you were the most incompetent pilot to ever to take to the skies.

I can demonstrate a stall in a fixed wing at any speed from zero knots up to VnePlease inform us how you may stall an aircraft at Vne (and survive).

[outofwhack]

Brian,

I dont want to waste too much of my time responding to tit for tat responses. You have shown a lack of understand of aerodynamics. No big deal but its useful to understand things in more detail.

One point I am making is that one should NOT assume that an experienced fixed-wing pilot will resort to ham fisted incorrect responses in an emergency.

Another point I am making is that the stall of an airfoil doesnt always happen at a certain speed but can happen at virtually any speed. But always at or beyond the stall angle of attack.

We have all studied the vector diagrams that show how autorotative forces work. Its all about angle of attack of the airfoil.

Nuff said.

OOW

[outofwhack]

Ok for the sake of completeness:

Given sufficient elevator control authority one could cause a stall in a fixed wing aircraft at any attainable speed. I.e from just over zero knots to beyond Vne. However don't try this unless you are in an aerobatic category aircraft for which you are fully rated and at sufficient height and wearing a parachute. Do not try this above the maneuvering airspeed limitation otherwise you may exceed the design limitations of the aircraft or yourself.

I would happily demonstrate a stall at up to maneuvering airspeed but not beyond as that could overstress the aircraft and might only be performed once.

[krypton_john]

OOW: "One point I am making is that one should NOT assume that an experienced fixed-wing pilot will resort to ham fisted incorrect responses in an emergency."

Who made such an assumption? As far as I can tell you are the only one introducing ham-fistedness into this discussion. I certainly never mentioned nor implied it.

No overcontrolled ham-fistedness is required to stall the blades of an R22. However a certain degree of control, correct procedure and *instant* reaction is required to prevent stalling the blades in an engine failure. The more experience a RW pilot has, the faster and more automatic the correction action will be - surely this is all obvious?

The correct action in a FW engine failure is to nose down to maintain glide speed. No overcontrolling required or implied. However taking this action in an R22, with a delay in lowering collective, is likely to be fatal.

I can't see why any of this would be interpreted as a criticism of the pilot in question.

[before landing check list]

Look gentleman, the posts stating a wing can stall from VNE to zero indicated (actually calibrated) airspeed is absolutely true. It may be hard to demonstrate at VNE because the aircraft may sustain structural problems 1st however we do demonstrate a stall called an accelerated stall (google it) which is well above level flight un accelerated stall speed. On the flip side just because you have zero indicated (actually calibrated) airspeed does not automatically mean that you are stalled. An example of that would be a zero G pushover from a nose up position to nose down wings level. It is all about angle of attack and managing it. I think everybody here has that knowledge but it takes time to realize it.

Another point I am making is that the stall of an airfoil doesn't always happen at a certain speed but can happen at virtually any speed. But always at or beyond the stall angle of attack.


I want to add that you can also stall at any attitude. Straight up, down, inverted, it does not matter however obviously some are easier than others. It is all about pointing the nose (in the pitch axis) in the direction the plane is moving. This reduces the angle of attack. Sometimes bringing the nose down will stall the airplane. Check this out; For example the top of the loop where you are past vertical. Most beginners will there pull a bit hard to force the nose down towards the horizon. In the position most aircraft is probably slow and pulling back on the stick to bring the nose down will sometimes exceed the critical angle of attack. How to avoid it? Relax a bit of back pressure usually works So there was an example of exceeding the critical angle of attack while trying to move the nose down a bit to fast. One more example; You are in a fully developed spin, you reduce power, you center the ball as you roll level however if you rush the recovery by bringing the nose up too fast it can easily stall again, during high indicated airspeed and the nose well down. This is an accelerated stall.

Of course almost all of this is irrelevant here being the R22 series is probably a POS (never flown one so I don't really know) and we were not there in the cockpit at the time of the accident so we don't absolutely know what happened there either. However we do know that up until the point where he died he tried everything his experience enabled him to try.

The 2 worst things for a pilot is walking out to the aircraft not knowing it will be your last flight and walking out to the aircraft knowing it will be your last flight.

Think on it.

[Pittsextra]

Go and ask for a flight in a two seat Sbach and you'll be able to get much of what OOW is explaining shown to you.

[HeliHenri]

Back to the topic,

"The helicopter pilot killed in a central Otago crash last night was a well-known aviator renowned for being safety-conscious."
Helicopter crash victim 'incredibly safe and experienced' - National News | TVNZ (http://tvnz.co.nz/national-news/caa-begin-fatal-helicopter-crash-investigation-today-5206561)

.

[Pittsextra]

R22 strikes again

[Not Nightowl]

Pittsextra.... :hmm: too true

[Squeaks]

Before the R22 bashing gets too much traction, the accident appears to have occurred at night yet we are accepting an 'eye witness' who claims

"A witness had been watching the helicopter as it flew through the Cardrona Valley, looked away, heard a bang, looked back and essentially saw the helicopter falling from the sky without the rotors moving," said Wanaka Police SAR co-ordinator Sergeant Aaron Nicholson.

"Weather conditions were great. It was a fairly calm, clear night so it would appear that, obviously it's not for me to say, but it (weather) doesn't seem to be a factor in what happened," said Nicholson.

TVNZ (http://tvnz.co.nz/national-news/caa-begin-fatal-helicopter-crash-investigation-today-5206561)

[krypton_john]

The incident was well before sunset - so would not have been at all dark.

[Squeaks]

The incident was well before sunset - so would not have been at all dark.

Thanks: that prompted a bit more research and the fire brigade received their call 8 minutes before sunset, so the media report was a bit off.

Nonetheless I'm a bit nonplussed that an eyewitness can claim that they saw it falling with the blades not moving. Certainly not something on which I would place too much credibility, much better to wait for the accident investigation; or some on site photos to indicate what condition the blades were in at impact.

[krypton_john]

Agreed. It's amazing what the investigators can deduce from the wreckage.

[outofwhack]

Thanks to subscribers BeforeLandingCheckList, PittsExtra and NotNightOwl for the back up :)

Father Abraham said my recent statements were so ridiculous as to not be worth commenting on and I had absolutely no understanding of fix wing aviation, and you are certainly not an individual who has any practical aviation experience

Funny...I've been flying 30 years, pic in 30+ types in power fw, sailplanes, helicopters, in 3 separate countries and even owned one or two aircraft of each type over my time and won't ever finish learning. Occasionally I meet people who have.

I have noted that more often than not people flying in one discipline have low opinions of people in the others. Sad - we have a passion in common and could learn from each other.

I recall a lecture one year at Oshkosh, Budd Davison said he once flight checked a pilot and wanted to ask "is your 10000 hours the same hour repeated ten thousand times?". In my words - you really can't know all about flying if you haven't had really varied flying experience?

OOW

[John Eacott]

Knowing both OOW and Brian, I can only put this down to an initial misunderstanding which (like Topsy) has grown: out of all proportion!

They're both very experienced aviators in their own fields and would have a good chat over a beer, as long as they include me in the shout ;)

[Not Nightowl]

You're welcome OOW, I've a little experience in commercial helicopter flying (and a tiny bit in the R22, it didn't impress me much), these days I charge around for an airline.
Helicopters were fun, had some interesting times. :ooh:

[Brian Abraham]

outofwhack, first let me apologise for being so doubtful of your background.

To be honest, I find statements such as being able to demonstrate a stall at Vne somewhat egregious (I had you down as a sciolist), particularly knowing now it does come from an experienced aviator. The reason being that Pprune has viewers who, through lack of experience or level of knowledge, take what they read here as gospel. As always though, the trouble with communication, especially with the written word, is the impression that it has taken place. As experienced as you seem, it may have been better if the claim was made in more circumspect terms, such as, a wing can stall irrespective of speed.

Both you and I know the facts re angle of attack and associated aerodynamics, but it is not possible to demonstrate a stall in any aircraft at Vne, Pitts included (stressed +6/-3 to +6/-5 depending on model - not 20 as you alluded to, Extra300 is +10/-10 with one up, and +8/-8 two up). Va (which varies with weight, as in the Extra variation quoted) is the speed at which a stall (accelerated obviously) will generate the limit g load. Any speed in excess of Va at which a stall is made will generate a g load in excess of the design and certified g limit. So doing may incur damage, and you know not where. In the Pitts damage is often found during maintenance, and various pilots readily admit to taking them up to +8, which is 1 g short of the ultimate load. Little wonder damage is found. It recently cost a Pitts owner $160,000 to rectify such damage. A stall in the Pitts at Vne will exceed the ultimate load by a little over 1.4 g.

Certification requirement re limit and ultimate loads.

§ FAR 23.305 Strength and deformation.

(a) The structure must be able to support limit loads without detrimental, permanent deformation. At any load up to limit loads, the deformation may not interfere with safe operation.

(b) The structure must be able to support ultimate loads without failure for at least three seconds, except local failures or structural instabilities between limit and ultimate load are acceptable only if the structure can sustain the required ultimate load for at least three seconds. However when proof of strength is shown by dynamic tests simulating actual load conditions, the three second limit does not apply.

Some info re the Pitts

http://freestyleaviation.co.uk/Freestyle/WW_Aeros/TheAOPATechManual2011v1.pdf

is your 10000 hours the same hour repeated ten thousand timesAn oft quoted quote. However some individuals dedicate themselves to a specific arena of the profession. It may be as a fixed wing aircraft carrier pilot, airline pilot, aero club instructor, competition aerobatic pilot, EMS helicopter pilot, SAR helicopter pilot, crop duster, offshore helicopter pilot, etc etc It is a trite and glib statement that detracts from the people who ply their trade in a particular, and by definition, narrow spectrum in which they apply their aeronautical skills. Professionals all, and we may dream from time to time of trading places and wondering if we might have, or be able to develop, the skills to make a fist of it. Each has its own demands, and retaining proficiency does not come easily.

I hope that explains. Robust discussion never hurts, even though at the end of the day you may retain your differences.

[TukTuk BoomBoom]

Thanks for turning a thread about a pilot dying in an R22 crash into a stupid "pizzing contest".
Can't wait to read more about how fast you can stall a freaking Pitts.
Show some respect guys, start another thread if you're going to dribble on like this.
RIP Julianne

[Brian Abraham]

TTBB, I see from your posts you are some what given to mouthing off and telling posters
instead its been taken over by a couple of loud mouths....quickly drowned out by these two know it all idiots.

FH1100 and Sasless should put a sock in it and let the guys that know tell it. and having your posts pulled by the Mods. If you want to start a condolences thread go ahead. No pissing contest, if you don't like what you read, do what you would watching TV, change channels, or is that beyond your skill set?