UK National Air Ambulance Service

[Savoia]

At a Conservative Party Conference ‘Fringe Meeting’ held in the Hyatt Regency, Birmingham on 9th October the meeting organisers "The Air Ambulance Service" [TAAS] put forward what some viewed as some disturbing proposals. Andy Williamson (the Chief Executive of TAAS) was advocating that all the separate Air Ambulance Charities in the United Kingdom merge together as "The Air Ambulance Service" and give up their individual county identities.

This line of thinking goes against the majority opinion of the many separate charity groups who rely `upon the fundraising being ‘local’ in nature to engender a feeling among the fundraisers and givers that they are looking after ‘their’ own helicopter rather than some large corporate monolith.

More: TAAS wants all UK air ambulance operations to merge into one | Helihub - the Helicopter Industry Data Source (http://helihub.com/2012/10/12/taas-wants-all-uk-air-ambulance-operations-to-merge-into-one/)

[jayteeto]

That works well for sparsley populated areas and goes against urban areas where fundraising is easier. There is not a single hope in hell of this happening.:cool:

[flyingsniffer]

Andy Williamson would appear to have an ego the size of a house. He has no mandate to determine the best way forward for a sector, but clearly feels that as he thinks he is right, he is. What a tosser, what he is proposing is so blatantly wrong, but he bangs on about it anyway. It's a shame that the AAA seems toothless in delivering any sort of leadership on this issue.

The TAAS's well documented take-over of the Children's Air Ambulance was clearly motivated by the desire to give themselves an excuse to fundraise nationally. They have 'form' in setting their agenda.

There should be a law against sharks like these guys. There is a lot of good out there in the air ambulance world, but chancers like Mr. Williamson threaten to undermine all that work to develop local identities, for his own selfish ends. The danger of course is that any bickering among charities risks negative PR, which threatens to undermine the current model.

[misterbonkers]

And the fat cat charity chief executives would all lose their jobs...! Afterall - no-one wants to give up £130k a year and a 4 door jaguar for managing a fleet of 3 dauphins...

[Coconutty]

Mr. Williamson hasn't been chatting with the ACPO lead on Police Air support has he ?

A National Air Ambulance Service would be a lot easier to merge with a National Police Air Service ? :rolleyes:

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[homonculus]

Whatever next?

Goodness we might even have the same medical crew, the same medical equipment and a standardised deployment policy. Some idiot might even then me able to audit the system to see if it is value for money. That could be a problem

It might even catch on in the rest of medicine. We could call it the National Health System and ensure everyone benefits.

[Helinut]

Hn,

I thought that the latest "plan" for the NHS from the politicians was to go back to the random postcode lottery approach to healthcare, and ignore what NICE or anyone else who knows anything are saying.

[homonculus]

But Helinut the doctors will still be annually appraised to a national standard, regulated by the GMC, and the standards believed appropriate will have to be met by all as otherwise the courts will intervene if someone complains.

And a parallel system goes for nurses, physio etc etc

In e 1960s kidney transplantation was run along the same lines as HEMS with everyone doing their own thing and money raised from charities. The doctors realised it was poor and pressure was put on the NHS to fund a proper service.

I am sincerely grateful to all those who raise money but if you needed a heart operation you would not be best pleased for me to tell you I was waiting for the charity to do a tombola and I didn't use an anaesthetist because my unit used porters.

You only have to realise there is effectively no real controlled medical audit of HEMS after 25 years save a couple of rather negative studies.

The fault lies as much with my fellow doctors who seem more concerned they might have their flights or power base restricted rather than pushing for NHS funding and a proper helicopter healthcare system integrated into trauma care

[Geoffersincornwall]

I should declare my hand and say from the beginning that as the guy that designed and set up the first AA unit in 1987 the clinical aspects of our role were only 50% of our 'raison d'etre'.

The other 50% was a logistical issue - speed and distance = time.

The delivery of stabilising care was the driver when deciding crew composition. For us that was a game changer for at that time we only had 8 'extended trained ATs' for the whole county so we could, when it mattered put a 'paramedic' into the equation. At a stroke we improved the QUALITY of clinical care.

The other big change was in the performance of the Ambulance Service. Some parameters were measurable and recorded (response times etc) but other parameters were measurable but NOT recorded - the number of occasions that the AA was effectively the ONLY unit available to cover the whole of our area.

The use of a philosophy that limits the role of the AA are in my opinion counter productive. Yes you do hand the nay-sayers ammunition when you pick up an sprained ankle but the context needs to be understood. Picking up that patient on an isolated cliff-top meant that the job was done and dusted within the hour. It would otherwise have removed a vehicle and crew from the available resources for 4 hours. Maybe the vehicle would have been unavailable to deal with the coronary in the town centre where the AA would have had problems attending.

What I am saying is that a holistic approach is necessary when gathering and analysing data about AA activity. We all know that they are a benefit but don't forget to look carefully at WHERE and WHEN they are a benefit.

If you ask me if the nation would benefit from 'joined-up' AA system then the answer is obviously yes. The devil is in the detail. What model is appropriate for our country and how do we get from where we are now to where we need to be?

G.

[Anthony Supplebottom]

A National Air Ambulance Service would be a lot easier to merge with a National Police Air Service ?


Joint Police/Ambulance facility to be built at Exeter Airport (http://construction.morgansindall.com/news?actv_ms_news_latest_news_id=338&actv_ms_news_latest_news_page=20)

The new two-storey office building will house the Air Operations Unit for Devon and Cornwall Police and Devon Air Ambulance Trust, both of which currently operate from Police Headquarters at Middlemoor.

A sign of things to come?

[Art of flight]

Makes sense to co-locate where possible to keep costs down, but joining with NPAS would mean a total loss of independence and therefore a loss of charitable giving from the local public.

[industry insider]

I think it would be a good idea.

Standardised aircraft and equipment, standardised training, central spare parts inventory, streamlined management.

The individual Air Ambulances can still keep their local identities for donations and fund raising.

The small regional air ambulances cannot hope to achieve any real efficiency. By merging in The Air Ambulance Service, commercial savings can be made (greater purchasing power) and the public will be more certain that they are getting value for money.

[Savoia]

.. NHS funding and a proper helicopter healthcare system integrated into trauma care..

That would be commendable, truly.

... as the guy that designed and set up the first AA unit in 1987 ..

And here is the brave Geoffers in action ..

http://www.livingincornwall.com/images/airambulance-pilot.jpg

[Geoffersincornwall]

I cringe with embarrassment. Bravery didn't come into it. All that was necessary was an enquiring mind, a good dose of bloody-midedness and a dash of luck. Add this to an amazingly positive reception at Stephen Bond's door and you have the idea.

G.

[Bertie Thruster]

Honest and wise people might ask; 'To whose benefit?'

[Savoia]

Sotiras: You will have to excuse my limited powers of perception with regard to your comment in that I am not entirely sure what you are implying (if anything).

If you believe that I am advocating a national air ambulance service .. I have made no such declaration on the matter. Like anything, it would require an in depth knowledge of the subject matter to be able to many a meaningful contribution and such knowledge I simply do not possess.

In the quoted section of the HeliHub article in post #1 it says at the beginning of the second paragrpah: "This line of thinking goes against the majority opinion of the many separate charity groups .." and which response I would quickly identify with in the absence of more substantive information regarding this proposal.

Regarding the character involved in this proposal, while I do not know him .. I do know of him and yes .. I very much do wish to shine a light on the matter .. that the intentions behind this proposal may be revealed with the hopeful outcome of encouraging sound responses - responses which clearly benefit patients and operators alike.

I have no real views on the merits of a national air ambulance service at present (for the reason provided), I do however share great sympathy with Homonculus' view that air ambulance operations should be government funded.

[PANews]

For completeness TAAS hosted two seperate meetings at the Coservative Party Conference, the first was formal and the second more social. The original post on Helihub related to feedback from meeting2. Meeting 1 was, I now understand, blessed with a similar format and outcome.

Monday 8 October
19.30 The Air Ambulance Service
Hyatt Regency : Dolce
Public Service Reform: Getting it off the ground
Speakers : Matthew Parris, Columnist - The Times (Chair); Bernard Jenkin MP, Chairman - Public Administration Select Committee; Andy Williamson, Chief Executive - The Air Ambulance Service
Refreshments available

Tuesday 9 October
21.30 The Air Ambulance Service
Hyatt Regency : Soprano
Public Service Reform: Getting it off the Ground
Speakers : Nigel Evans MP, Deputy Speaker - House of Commons; Andy Williamson, Chief Executive - The Air Ambulance Service
Refreshments available

[Anthony Supplebottom]

The Yorkshire Air Ambulance (YAA) is to leave Leeds-Bradford International Airport for a new base in West Yorkshire.

A vacant site within the Nostell Priory estate, near Wakefield, has been granted planning permission by Wakefield Council. It will have a hangar and aircrew accommodation for one helicopter.

The charity said the aircraft would operate in daylight hours only and should be operational by summer 2013. The charity's two helicopters provide a "rapid response helicopter emergency medical service" for a population of approximately five million people.

The second air ambulance would continue to operate from RAF Topcliffe in North Yorkshire said the YAA.

BBC News - Wakefield base for Yorkshire Air Ambulance helicopter (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-19949837)

[west lakes]

This comes from a question asked in another forum.

Is there a "central" co-ordination body that deals with items of mutual interest for the UK Air Ambulance Charities?
As I suspect some on here fly them perhaps you could help

[Savoia]

Have a read of this thread which touches on some of what you are asking: http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/497860-taas-uk-national-air-ambulance-service.html

[west lakes]

Have a read of this thread Cheers it points to one organisation (AAA) that might fit the requirement:ok:

Pprune at it's best 11 minutes from asking to getting an answer pointing in the right direction)

[west lakes]

sotiras

TAAS was established and is headed by an individual whose interests are generally considered NOT to be in line with others involved with UK Air Ambulance operations.

Yes I got the view that TAAS was not what I was looking for, however the AAA Home (http://www.associationofairambulances.co.uk/) did seem to fit the bill

[Aerodynamik]

Saw a charity collection box in my local Pizza place for the Lucy Air Ambulance last week. I'd not heard of them before, are they a similar thing?

[PANews]

You will find that Lucy is the acceptable side of 'other' ambulances.

They too 'rob' the mainstream operations in cross border fundraising raids but they do serve a different task to such as the Children's Air Ambulance [TCAA]. TCAA claims to cover the whole of England and Wales as a children's AA to the exclusion of all others and the mainstream dispute that activity.

Lucy raises funds to pay for the carriage of children by other air ambulance operators [rotary or fixed wing, whichever is most appropriate].

They are associate members of the AAA as a result.

[Professor Bublinsky]

Should the UK start thinking about setting up a national air ambulance service?

[Nige321]

Errr.... Why?

[SARWannabe]

Because NPAS worked so well? And suggest funding it by the government? Errr no. Disaster.

[TeeS]

There might be some benefits to it but I suspect that, if you got at all serious about the idea, you would find yourself in some wild part of the UK peering out from the inside of a 'Wicker Man' :eek:

Just my thoughts.

TeeS

[jayteeto]

100% absolutely NO.
Many reasons.
If it’s government funded it will be shut down totally to save money. Charity funded would be a nightmare. Use an example of NPAS, some areas have great coverage and some just don’t. The current setup means local people make local decisions on the best way to deploy, kit and spend. A bit like the police used to do it. A superorganisation could go the way of other large charities. Read the papers on how things change when organisations ‘go large’.
The way forward is better collaboration between areas, linking purchases for lower costs and considering pooling some resources to streamline operations. Combine training courses and mutual aid when required. In fact the AAA is sowing the seeds for just that.

[Professor Bublinsky]

There might be some benefits to it but I suspect that, if you got at all serious about the idea, you would find yourself in some wild part of the UK peering out from the inside of a 'Wicker Man' :eek:

Just my thoughts.

TeeS
The charity mafia....surely not?

[Professor Bublinsky]

it would go some way in dealing with these charities that use bullying style of management....I think!

[TeeS]

Hi Prof.

I was thinking more of the thousands of individuals who give up their time, run shops (and marathons), rattle collecting tins, do mud runs and generally put themselves out to raise the massive amount of funds required to run THEIR Air Ambulance - I don't think they would take kindly to your suggestion of taking it away from them, to hand over to a 'National Organisation'. Don't confuse those individuals with the various charity bosses, AOC holders, operators etc. because you will find the same ratio of bullying styles of management that you will find in any other organisation (including your National Air Ambulance if it was ever to come about)

Cheers

TeeS

[VeeAny]

It would be an unmitigated disaster.

One size does not fit all, and bigger is most certainly not always (if ever) better.

[helihub]

I think a national charity could work - the RNLI is a great example of locally organised fundraising for a national charity, and a life-saving one at that.

I do wonder whether the marathon/mud runners/tin-rattlers etc etc would add their efforts if they knew that the combined UK charities have over £250,000,000 (yes, a quarter of a BILLION POUNDS) of cash in the bank.. or that publicly accessible data shows seven UK air ambulance execs earning north of £100K, and that number may be higher given some appear to be paid through service companies. If you take the latest year’s costs, one charity has enough cash to last for seven years without raising another penny...

As jayteeto says, some pooling is already happening- Thames Valley and Hampshire/IOW have advertised some combined roles in the recent past for example.

So rather than going national quite yet, how about an open-and-honest effort for consolidation and collaboration? Or are the bully boys too precious with the income they’ve carved out for themselves to allow others to play in their ball pit?

[TeeS]

Hi Helihub, a quick glance at the RNLI accounts shows ‘investments’ to be in the region of £270 million so not very different to your figure for the air ambulances.
cheers
TeeS

[Radgirl]

If it’s government funded it will be shut down totally to save money.

We are talking about health care, not the police / NAS. I dont see the NHS being shut down to save money

I was thinking more of the thousands of individuals who give up their time, run shops (and marathons), rattle collecting tins, do mud runs and generally put themselves out to raise the massive amount of funds required to run THEIR Air Ambulance

Rather like health care was provided in the 1930s....

If we suggested replacing the NHS with a series of charities there would be an outcry, yet perhaps one of the most critical medial areas is run by charities. Just as the NHS does not build cars, it should not build or perhaps even operate helicopters. However, the miss mash or medical personnel, equipment and protocols, the lack of seemless medical care from aircraft to operating theatre, the shortcomings of some taskings and the opportunity to standardise and improve medical care on scene and use an expensive resource efficiently is begging for the medical aspects of HEMS to come under proper medical supervision and direction.

Of course, just as most of the population believe the NHS is unique and almost a religion, so many see their air ambulance as untouchable. As often happens, politics and public perception triumphs over science and professional advice

[helihub]

TeeS - that's true, but I'm not sure if finances gives a good comparison. RNLI were founded in 194 years ago, and majority of UK air ambulance charities have not yet achieved one tenth of that, so they are doing extraordinarily well at fund-raising. [I note the RNLI figure you quoted actually fell between 2015 and 2016]

[SARWannabe]

However, the miss mash or medical personnel, equipment and protocols, the lack of seemless medical care from aircraft to operating theatre, the shortcomings of some taskings and the opportunity to standardise and improve medical care on scene and use an expensive resource efficiently is begging for the medical aspects of HEMS to come under proper medical supervision and direction.

How do you see this working when SWAST, SECAMB, LAS, EMAS, EoEAS etc all use their own (different) protocols with which the HEMS services must loosely conform? Bristol, Wiltshire, Dorset, and Cornwall for example are very different charities with differing balances of trauma vs medical jobs, and differing access to hospitals. SWAST largely govern protocols of advanced doctor led practice surrounding medical procedures and the use of controlled drugs in those regions. SWAST have different policies to EMAS who may permit their doctor/paramedic teams to undertake different procedures autonomously.

The lack of uniformity stems from a lack of uniformity within different trusts of the NHS as a whole, which don’t all allow the HEMS organisations the flexibility to necessarily operate to what they would consider a best practice. Remember most of the doctors, and many paramedics in HEMS are employed by the NHS and not the charities.

That said, in my experience of working with a number of HEMS units throughout the uk, it appears to me that the average standard is incredibly high, with highly motivated individuals who are massively underpaid but take real pride in their role, and in the quality of service they deliver. Internal governance at many of the charities is highly professional and thorough, and they are always striving to optimise the incremental gains required to achieve the best possible outcome. Thankfully, because they are not directly subject to government cuts they have the resources to achieve this.

[Professor Bublinsky]

If anything a national AA would put a stop to CEOs being sacked from a charity just to move on to another. There are examples of this which I can mention.

[Dai Whirlybird]

I think a national charity could work - the RNLI is a great example of locally organised fundraising for a national charity, and a life-saving one at that.

As jayteeto says, some pooling is already happening- Thames Valley and Hampshire/IOW have advertised some combined roles in the recent past for example.

So rather than going national quite yet, how about an open-and-honest effort for consolidation and collaboration? Or are the bully boys too precious with the income they’ve carved out for themselves to allow others to play in their ball pit?


I'm with Helihub, we shouldn't be inclined to dismiss it out of hand just because an honest and serious debate exploring the possible merits of a charity funded National AA service hasn't yet happened.

Corporate efficiencies, improved clinical governance, stronger safety cultures and more robust public accountability are all (I presume) areas in which we'd all like to see improvement. There'd certainly be less wriggle room for individuals inclined to exploit their positions, which having explored the AA threads on PPrune appears to vex many.

If properly led and motivated, there's no reason at all why a local AA's loyal supporters and corporate donors shouldn't retain their local identity and remain partisan.

I'm with helihub.... We need to proactively consider funding existing local services through the exisiting charitable arrangements, whilst providing the corporate oversight and Safety management through a more efficient, more transparent and more accountable entity?

[TeeS]

Please don't get me wrong, I've been in this business since the 'fairly early days' (a while after Geoffers admittedly) and during the period of expansion throughout the regions, introduction of doctors (of various skill levels) and lots of 'reinventing of the wheel' I always said that the best outcome would be to develop an 'RNLI of the skies' providing common standards of training and equipment across the country; however, I always added that this would never happen because of the personal attachment felt by the fund raisers for THEIR air ambulance and separately because of the vested interests of the management teams (I'm generalising!).

I left full time HEMS just as pre-hospital doctors, armed with knowledge gained in Afghanistan etc. were being introduced to a lot of the regions and now that I'm again doing more HEMS, I see an incredibly well funded, equipped and trained team at most of the units I work with - on that basis it is difficult to see the current system as broken, even if some regions may need some assistance to move in the right direction.

Cheers

TeeS

[Hedski]

The potential cons outweigh the pros but only just. A service more like Germany or Austria would be best. France also is not charity funded and according to one senior clinician I’ve spoken to light years ahead of the U.K. in pre hospital care. Whilst NPAS as a national model has proven to be farcical and an abject failure closer cooperation at least and reduction of different types etc along with some actual better planning would make an immediate difference.

But where would the empire builders go then. The CEO’s on 6 figure salaries and bonuses. The charities who have raised so much of people’s hard earned they can’t spend it quickly enough to avoid losing their charitable status. The ever larger airframes no longer able to land in suburban confines that charities better served before. The wastage on, in one instance, an airframe offered gratis from the Middle East only to be paid for and still require massive extra spend to make it airworthy when others were available as a pair for 10-15% of the cost in the U.K. ex another charity. The charity travelling 6 on board so every clinician can get stats and boxes ticked to a scene then refusing to carry a casualty to hospital as they don’t have the fuel capacity. The charity with no affiliation to any actual ambulance service upgrading to a larger multi crew operation. The ambulance service who will task their own asset still on another hospital pad half an hour away as opposed to the aircraft over the ‘border’ 6 minutes away but not wearing the correct colour scheme or branding. I could go on but maybe BBC panorama might get interested if I did. Oh how they love to spend all the people’s money yet air ambulance pilots are the poorest paid in the U.K., and amongst EMS pilots in Europe the poorest also despite now requiring ever higher qualifications.

Some centralisation might actually drain the swamp.

Have lovely weekend everyone.

[Radgirl]

Totally agree with SARWannabee and TeeS - some well motivated people but varying policies and protocols. That means some patients get restricted or suboptimal care - either from under treatment or over treatment - they cant all be correct

If the NHS 'ran' the medical aspects nationally we would see exactly the same as in NHS operating theatres or X Ray - some minor variations but national minimum standards, an accepted protocol for most situations etc etc. Clinicians could properly apply pressure for optimal care. Errors or negligence would be seen as such and, in some cases at least, drive improvement or change.

The current situation is rather like buying a new aircraft, tearing up the manufacturer's SOPs and writing your own........

[Thomas coupling]

Radgirl - speak for kiwiland but not the UK. One has to separate the operation if we are to address your views successfully.
The aviation side of the operation is a bolt on accessory (a necessary one obviously) which would survivie whether it was a national or regional operation.
The financing side would however be decimated by government interference. As has been said before in this thread, government only looks at the bottom line. Efficiency doesn't exist in government dictionaries.
For your information - NPAS (the police national airforce conglomeration) is a laughing stock in the UK. It has been ridiculed by the HMCC report and those who work inside the set up know that what was and what is - are two different beasts. It is a symbol of how NOT to run a national airforce.
Independent charities for HEMS are a necessary evil. It's been adopted by the local populace who are very proud of what they have created (touchy feely). And they don't want it diluted by external foces. Nationally it is very inefficent but who cares? It works and it works so well - the government are steering well clear! Thank the Lord.
You could be alluding to the medical side of things and yes maybe there is room for optimisation.

[Radgirl]

TC - I have been careful to describe the benefits as I see it of the medical side being part of the NHS. I stick with that view. I regret I do not agree it works so well....... patient care is compromised as I explained above. It is difficult to think of another example of so much money being spent with so little audit or scientific analysis.....

I have rather kept away from the aviation side, and I am well aware of the NPAS fiasco, but your question 'who cares' about inefficiencies is answered by those other medical charities competing for the public's money, and ultimately the patients they seek to help. There is considerable research showing finite charitable donations (and I refer to the UK, not NZ!!).

Interestingly New Zealand went from a system not dissimilar to the UK to the current system where all providers are under an umbrella which includes the Ministry of Health, but there is a consultation under way to further integrate the service for a variety of reasons including uniform cover and standardised integrated medical care. The proposal includes increasing government spending, increasing audit and achieving clinical standards with clinical governance. Whilst we need to be very careful extrapolating from country to country, New Zealand in many respects of this argument is a scaled down UK with a very similar health system. We would do well to watch developments there and be willing to learn. A little more science and audit in HEMS is sorely needed.

[SARWannabe]

TC - I have been careful to describe the benefits as I see it of the medical side being part of the NHS. I stick with that view. I regret I do not agree it works so well....... patient care is compromised as I explained above. It is difficult to think of another example of so much money being spent with so little audit or scientific analysis.....


I'm not sure which HEMS unit you have experience of, and I don't wish for you to say, but I must say that bears no resemblance to the UK HEMS units I fly, which are numerous. They are constantly auditing, publishing research, undertaking moulage, hosting frequent public governance days, meeting other organisations to learn from each other, following up with patients, and looking for any feasibly way to optimise the patient care. Clearly from your experience this is not the case in some areas, but are you sure they aren't the exception?

There is a great sense of camaraderie at HEMS units and charities, and this I believe in part is due to the small teams, and personalisation with people all they way up the chain. You understand the identity of those you are working with and they understand your requirements and are receptive to change.

I just don't see any good coming from nationalisation of charities or operations. As soon as they lose their independent identity in their given region the public too will become disassociated, and see the aircraft as an NHS asset which should be therefore paid for by government. The only obvious benefit? Cost savings, but cost isn't really the issue here. All UK air ambulances combined run for far less money annually than the annual deficit for Kings College Hospital alone, and they have no problem funding themselves.

As stated before, the NHS medical protocols across the various ambulance trusts aren't even standard. In many cases the doctor led services in the UK are way ahead in thinking than their associated ambulance trusts, and being held back by the bureaucracy of them, when in other areas of the UK they are afforded much more autonomy. If you're to apply a standard across the board, I'd say it would be to further remove the doctor lead services from NHS ambulance trust protocols, and set a new standard for the advanced practitioners which is most appropriate to PHEM so they can deliver the advanced care they wish to and practice for.

[Radgirl]

Thanks SARWannabee. I dont want to hog this thread as there is a risk of repetition, but in medicine audit and research means properly set up studies with ethical committee approval, peer reviewed and published in the medical literature. Please PM me with examples if you can find any. Case reviews and discussions are not research. Lists of injuries and logs of times are not medical research.

You make my argument well in your last paragraph - by acknowledging the wide range of medical care across the country, you are in effect saying some are better than others. An integrated trauma system that the medical profession recommended in 1989 !!! would see HEMS as one link in the trauma chain. This would reduce autonomy (which is variability by another name) and allow better research, identifying weaknesses and improving standards as happens continually in the hospital setting

I think this is a theoretical argument. The NHS has such massive problems which the politicians seem unable to understand. Their answer is to simply pour in more money which wont work. They are about to ban whole areas of medicine (knee arthroscopy, spinal blocks etc) so there isnt a snowballs's chance of them volunteering to take on additional services from the charitable sector.

[Sir Korsky]

Cash boost for Air Ambulances announced in Autumn Budget | Latest Norfolk and Suffolk Business News - Eastern Daily Press (http://www.edp24.co.uk/business/cash-boost-for-air-ambulances-announced-in-autumn-budget-eaaa-1-5756669)

The UK government is to provide 10 million pounds of funding to UK air ambulance charities, announced in this week's budget. Is a UK national air ambulance agency becoming any closer?

[GC47G]

One wonders sitting in a dark place North of the Border thinking, do you think that might include us in amongst it this time or leave us out , Everything considered from afar that it is a another disaster waiting to follow NPAS ,and as we all no that we are stand alone with that .

[SARWannabe]

Thanks SARWannabee. I dont want to hog this thread as there is a risk of repetition, but in medicine audit and research means properly set up studies with ethical committee approval, peer reviewed and published in the medical literature. Please PM me with examples if you can find any. Case reviews and discussions are not research. Lists of injuries and logs of times are not medical research..

I only just saw this reply - one consultant and university professor, working with one of the many HEMS services has posted 73 pieces of relevant research in the last 10 years or so surrounding pre-hospital medicine survivability rates, the use of pre-hospital blood and other interventions, which have been published in medical journals and peer reviewed. There are many more however they aren’t typically published by the charity themselves as they aren’t the charities work, they are the doctors research, however they are the product of a close relationship between the two if you look at how many of the linked research articles are HEMS related after a long fruitful relationship spanning a decade or more and rely on data generated through close cooperation https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.researchgate.net/profile/Richard_Lyon5/amp

[tigerfish]

Please don't even think of it, at least not until you've looked at the total and unmitigated disaster that NPAS became. Oh, the concept was a great idea!
Take 27 Different forces operating some 33 aircraft, move them around a bit in order to give better cover, standardise the training, bring maintenance into one supplier thus gaining on economies of scale etc. Standardise aircraft types, and Insurance cover. Bring in direct employment of a pool of Pilots on a National contract. Establish National Policies etc. Regionalise control rooms, and operate on a Regional basis. The main objective being to maximise efficiency etc. -- Simple? No --Not One bit of it!

The only aim of NPAS as established, was to save money right from the start. No interest in increasing efficiency and effectiveness. But immediately close 50% of the bases, - plus a similar reduction in aircraft. Effectiveness was lost immediately because you had maximised the distances that aircraft had to fly. Instead of increasing the effectiveness of control they they opted for control on a National basis instead of a more efficient Regional Control system. This resulted in confusion and a downturn in morale. But critically they chose to Ignore the whole concept of reducing crime and an increasing the arrests of Criminals!

Oh yes NPAS was not a roaring success! Indeed it became a laughing stock!

So to those who propose the concept of a National Air Ambulance service I say , look at the tragedy of NPAS, learn from it and do not enter into the idea, unless your intention is to genuinely improve the availability of the service and not to just save money! I suppose If nothing else they at least you will have a a good model of how NOT to do it!

TF

[jimf671]

Errr.... Why?

Yeah, good question.

As shown by the date this tread started, this has been bouncing around for a while. These ideas were proposed at a RUSI event in April 2012 and there was much rolling of eyes and shaking of heads. It was clear that there were too many egos in the room and not enough space left for common sense. And it's not about "the UK" and never will be. I can also tell you with certainty that these ideas are not for the benefit of either the casualties or the aircrew.

[Boessie]

I don't really why the main argument against the idea is to use NPAS' example. This is a government organisation and will as mentioned only look at reducing cost, and usually do very poorly. Why not take the example of the RNLI, which are not government funded, like the AAs, and work nationwide, even internationally. Their supporters tend have strong ties to their local station as well. You will probably maintain the same income but a reduced overhead through lower maintenance, training and asset costs could possibly be used to improve cover of the service.

[Dai Whirlybird]

I'm sort of with Boessie on this, I agree that there is a tangible difference between a Government initiative which in the modern world is almost always motivated by reducing costs and that of an initiative driven by an independent organisation towards it's own ends, (whatever they may be).

The tragedy is that some of the independent organisations in this instance (AA's) are (in my opinion) motivated by aggrandisement, Sadly I feel that there is a real danger that this additional Government funding will inevitably be channelled towards wresting power away from existing stakeholders, eg:- Ambulance Services who provide clinical Governance having that responsibility removed and replaced by AA funded initiatives, an unecessary move that adds to the bill but delivers nothing more.

Don't get me wrong I applaud the work of all AA's, but I absolutely despair at the level of empire building that exists within their executive ranks and I am genuinely fearful that these additional funds will not result in more lives saved, but will simply serve to fund ego's and extend empires.

[jimf671]

Reducing costs overall can be the same as better organised and better resourced. Government departments, whether health or law enforcement, do not want to be dealing with dozens of little empires around the country that cause them to run entire departments to deal with them. A government with a spine and common sense might say 'If you want to operate AA in the UK then you will do X, Y and Z and operate according to P, Q and R." You might then end up with something more useful and which provides the giving public with more value.

[tigerfish]

Ah! You mean like the Govt did with NPAS in respect of Police Aviation? Totally banjaxed it? Yes that's obviously a great idea!

TF

[jimf671]

I think there was far less reason to unify police aviation.

[Thud_and_Blunder]

Link to thirdsector.co.uk article: (https://www.thirdsector.co.uk/regulator-freezes-bank-account-air-ambulance-charity/governance/article/1794035)25 July 2022 by Russell Hargrave (https://www.thirdsector.co.uk/author/4998/Russell-Hargrave)

25 July 2022 by Russell Hargrave (https://www.thirdsector.co.uk/author/4998/Russell-Hargrave)



The Charity Commission has frozen the bank account of a charity that provides support to air ambulances amid financial concerns.

The regulator said it had opened a statutory inquiry into the Air Ambulance Foundation UK after the trustees failed to answer financial questions sent to the board.

The commission said the inquiry would examine whether trustees can account for how the charity spent its money and whether that spending supported its charitable objectives.

Charity Commission records show the charity filed its accounts late in each of the previous two financial years, by 94 days and 57 days respectively.

The accounts for the year ending April 2021 show that the Air Ambulance Foundation UK raised £480,000 over the previous two years, including three “very substantial” legacy gifts.

In the same period it made donations worth just £4,000, although the 2020/21 accounts say that it is considering “the possibility of the joint purchase of an air ambulance for one of the air ambulance services”.

The Air Ambulance Foundation UK did not respond to a request for comment.


I'm sure it's all absolutely fine, and there's nothing wrong, nothing to see here... yeah, right.

[gipsymagpie]

Just take a look at how many pennies in the pound donated to the "The" Air Ambulance Service actually makes it to the helicopters. Now that's a bigger scandal. This bunch of crooks are merely dabbling in conparison

[[email protected]]

Just take a look at how many pennies in the pound donated to the "The" Air Ambulance Service actually makes it to the helicopters. Now that's a bigger scandal. This bunch of crooks are merely dabbling in conparison yes when the CEOs of the charities are paid far more than the people actually saving lives...how does that work?

[ShyTorque]

I think it’s time that the way in which U.K. registered, lucrative businesses hide behind the description of a charity is investigated in depth and at government level. Everything from door drop envelopes asking for clothes and bric-a-brac bag collections, bucket collections for war veterans as well as certain air ambulances.

Seems to me that many of them are simply not quite what they seem.

[SWBKCB]

yes when the CEOs of the charities are paid far more than the people actually saving lives...how does that work?

The usual b*llocks - "oh we have to pay the market rate to attract the best and brightest people - those that really know how a CEO's office should be decorated..."