Airline operations interfering

[nodelay]

I would be interested to know if anyone has had the same problems with airline operators as I have.

We all spend alot of our time helping, as much as we can, our winged friends make good their slots along with a lot of help from FMP. We often allow aircraft which are tight on their slots to push and taxi because we know what is ahead of them at the holding points and we know that we can find a 'hole' for them and that the good old tower man will think of something!! But far too often recently, companies have been adjusting the slots without any knowledge of what the traffic situation is because they are 200 odd miles away, resulting in considerable delays for the aircraft.

This then has to be relayed to the pilot (after asking him to pull his finger out to make good the original slot) and the blame miraculously gets redirected to ATC:mad:

Funny old world init:confused:

[Standard Noise]

Ops departments W@nkers one and all.
Last week we had one Capt given a slot by his ops people which was 20 mins earlier than the slot we got from FMP (incidentally, I find that the guys at flow are amenable to a bit of slot jiggling, as long as you don't rip the arse out of it).
He didn't go until the slot time we had for him came up. As far as I'm concerned, the AFTN terminal in the VCR is the one I take slots from, not some whispered phone call from some halfwit 300 miles away who doesn't know an airbus from a number 31 bus!

[no sig]

Nodelay,

Your help is of course appreciated and please don't tar everyone with the same brush. Slot coordination is on occasion best served by managing it locally and that we do appreciate, on the other hand, it can often be better managed by the airline's Ops depatments, particularly if there is going to be a lengthly delay.

Standard Noise

I think you need to spend some time in an Ops room to get a feel for the job they do. You'll find most understand the system just as well, if not better, that you do. Sound to me like you're assuming incompetence when a comms delay or perhaps a simple mistake is most likely to be the answer.

[Gonzo]

It's perhaps wrong to generalise on this. It depends on the circumstances.

Airlines Ops have more of an idea (than me, certainly) about reroutes, level cappping and if an a/c is running late or gone tech, but we have a better idea when it comes to taxi times, how much traffic is ahead at the holding point, inbound emergencies that may cause us to go single runway etc etc. We complement each other.

Certainly BA Ops at Heathrow, and thus the crews through ACARS, usually know about updated slot times a few minutes before we get the news from Brussels.

Gonzo.

[2 six 4]

Gonzo ... that would be the same BA Ops who level capped the traffic under Lakes and into MACC Sector 29. They did this when there was no flow on Lakes, there was flow an S29 and they were level capping in accordance with the instruction that London TMA to Scottish TMA trafic was to be level capped ..... except the aircraft was bound for Aberdeen !! :eek: :eek:

[Standard Noise]

no sig - thanks for the offer, but I think I'll give it a miss. I don't need to get a feel for what they do. What I definitely don't need is some stroppy pilot arguing with me about a slot time because their ops people have lost the plot yet again, and seem to think that making up slots will actually fool ATCO's into letting the flights depart before time.
And why do they not understand the concept of sending through the correct a/c types when they send flight plan refiles. We don't have vortex categories printed on strips just for the hell of it!!!

I don't just assume incompetance, I see it almost every working day where ops depts are concerned.:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Gonzo]

2 six 4,

Okay, nobody's perfect. I made plenty of mistakes at work this afternoon.

Gonzo.

[ZIP250]

Standard Noise. Yours attitude towards ops is bordering on arrogance. We are in this business as a team and the sooner you get away from the them and us attitude the better. I'll wager that you are one of the first to complain that pilots never come to visit us.

On a lighter note does anybody else remember the good old days of Dan Air ops at LGW where we were always welcome?

Z

[1261]

Well said, Zip!

There's a rich vein of "I don't need to know" running through NATS; I'm sure that if it were a tradable commodity we'd all be millionaires.

And before everyone else says "yes, but thats's not me" I'll qualify that comment by saying that it represents, however a [sizeable] minority!

[Hooligan Bill]

no sig,

I would say that as per the UK AIP any occassion that falls within 30 minutes from the CTOT should be handled locally. Like nodelay, I have had at least three incidents where ATC locally have negotiated an extension on a slot with the FMU only to find that the relevant ops department have at the same time either entered a delay message or sent a re-route. All three incidents resulted in the aircraft receiving a lengthy delay and having to return to stand after almost being at the holding point.

It seems to me at times there is no communication between crews and ops as ATC are being asked to do one thing, while ops are doing something else.

As someone else has pointed out, the FMU are normally very helpful and bend over backwards.

[nodelay]

I too was under the impression that ATC were to handle any slot ammendments 30 mins prior to CTOT, which was one of the reasons that prompted me to raise the subject in the first place.

In days gone by (prior to NATS) I worked very closely with BA ops and a more proffessional bunch of people you could never meet. (Incidentally it wasn't BA that prompted me to write initially!!) However all though we are supposed to work as a 'team' it does feel sometimes when you are sitting there trying to explain to a driver why he has missed his slot that maybe we aren't all playing for the same team.

I'm all for visiting an ops room so as to broaden my knowledge and would hope they would want to visit us at some point so that we can give our side of the story!! Remember, knowledge is power!!

[Standard Noise]

Dear me, dear me, some of you seem a bit p***ed off with me, but I speak as I find, as anyone I work with will tell you.

Zippy - as I'm speaking from personal experience, I don't consider my comments to be arrogant. How you find them is entirely a matter for you. Our atsas tried to do a few favours for the local crews a while back, and when one or two slot allocations went against us, the ops manager of that particular airline stamped his feet, had a little pink fit, and told our guys not to interfere ever again - does that sound like the great big "team" you refer to?
Now, we don't interfere unless the individual atco is feeling generous. The flight crews understand, and are grateful if we can help at all. On more than one occasion, I have phoned flow from the VCR desk to see if anything can be done to bring an estimate forward. More often than not, it works, thanks only to the guys at flow pulling out the stops - THANKS FLOW, GOOD JOB, KEEP IT UP!

I used to complain about pilots not coming to see us, but not any more. Our unit has a steady trickle of pilots coming over to see us, so that isn't an issue.

Rescue 3 - SITA or AFTN, it makes no difference, I can only go on the info I have, and since it comes through on the AFTN, then that's what I use. After all, it's my ass in the wringer if I let someone go ahead of their slot, not the ops people.

1261 - I don't know where you get you're information from, but last time I checked, I didn't work for NATS! Oh yeh, and I STILL don't need to know!

[1261]

SN,

I never suggested that you did work for NATS, just that there were several people of similar mind in our employ.

And I still think that your attitude sucks, whoever you work for.

[Big Tudor]

Standard Noise.

Please wind your neck in before it disappears up your attitude.

You whinge like hell because pilots won't come and see you in your ivory tower but you admit you won't bother to get off your arse to go visit some of the ops rooms. HYPOCRITE.

So you go off whatever slot your wonderful AFTN machine gives you. Well guess what. The ops guys go off the slot that their SITA machine tells them. So what happens when the 2 differ because AFTN hasn't got enough head of steam to push the messages through to you? You sit there fat dumb and happy with your slot and don't give a rats' arse about anybody else.

You say that ops guys don't recognise an airbus from a 31 bus. Well I suggest that you don't know your arse from your elbow!!

And before you launch into another vitriolic outburst, I have worked both in ops room and ATC. And guess what, there are ******s in both.

[Exel]

Now then guys there is one simple solution to this problem

Airlines : Get yourself UKATTS equipped and we'll see what we can about the delays ;) ;)

PROBLEM SORTED - BYEEUKATTS

[no sig]

Holligan/nodelay

You are of course right, as I acknowledged in my first post, albeit without spelling it out.

We both have a problem. We generate your business and you have to manage that, you (and I mean the collective ATS you) then restrict us in our interest because we all want it safe, we then in turn try to find a way around that restriction, and so on. In between all this are the comms links, ramp, tech delays etc. which pilots and perhaps local ATC know about but the Ops department 100 miles away don't. The good efforts of local ATC units who we know do their best to get the flight away, throw in a phone call from the pilot to his Ops asking them if there is anything we can do to improve the slot etc etc. You can see it is not surprising that at times there is confusion all round.

It is more often honest confusion then malice or incompetence, don't underestimate the flight deck input to all this as well, they, with their passengers best interests at heart, will endeavour to improve upon the slot by, I almost said, by fair mean or foul, but I don't really mean that- however, they will work to get the best improvement they can.

In our ATC environment today airline ops departments have an essential part to play in the management of flow delays. If we all play by the rules and work together the contribution should be positive, and I believe for the most part it is. You might be interested to know that in my airline our Ops can improve upon flow related delays by 30%. This is a very significant factor in ensuring an airline operates on time, which in turn supports the system.

We're not all perfect and I'm not saying airline ops departments don't screw up from time to time, but then again neither is the ATC system perfect. We all have to live and work with it, perhaps more temperate posts and a greater understanding between us would help.

[no sig]

Rescue3

Most airlines do indeed have RCA access. And those lucky ones ACARS, we use mobile phones and radio instead.

[ghost-rider]

I can't believe I missed this post !

Standard Noise ... Your arrogance is staggering ! :mad: Talk about in need of attitude adjustment !

As one of the Airline Ops / ATC w@nker and halfwits ( quotes from Standard Noise ! :rolleyes: ) slated by the above buffoon, please allow me to put forward our case ...

If we get a call from our handling agent saying that a flight will not make his slot due to pax / baggage discrepancies, a/c tech issues etc etc, then for obvious reasons, we will delay the FPL.

SN - I'd put money on the fact that even though you may be able to see the a/c with your all-knowing beedy little eyes - could you have told me that three pax are missing, the boarding cards don't tally. or the bloody a/c itself has a snag ???? No .. didn't think so !

On the other hand, you may be chatting to the crew over R/T, and he may ask you for some tolerance on the slot. Even though you've probably given him more slack than you should, if you end up delaying the FPL yourself, because the crew can't be arsed to call their own ops dept ... do you take into account the en-route restrictions and traffic counts etc etc ? Or do you just blindly amend the EOBT ? By doing this you may increase the workload on overloaded sectors, as opposed to end up with a horrendous slot. Done with good faith I appreciate, but without thought to the possible consequences.

We, whilst not perfect by any means, obviously and agreeably have no perfect idea of the current traffic situation at the dep airport itself, and how this will affect you. And to be honest, all we will do is try and amend the EOBT to a) reality as to what the a/c can achieve, and b) on a route that will hopefully avoid the most penalising regs. As long as the slot fits the EOBT, then job done. If you need more taxying time due to local circumstances, then surely you should contact BRU to have the taxi-time amended by the Central Computer that issues the slots in the first place !! :confused:

As NoSig mentions, most Airline Ops have RCA access. and will probably receive the new CTOT and communicate it to the crew before you can.

Now in the case mentioned by No Delay, the crew may well have told their ops team that they can't make the CTOT, Ops have delayed the FPL, whereas ATC have kindly found a gap for him. Result though, a delay with the new CTOT. The cause ? Certainly NOT the local ATC unit, or the Airline Ops, because the crew told ops they couldn't make it, and ATC wanted to help in getting them away. Did the crew mention that had spoken to Ops ? Probably not ! In this case the fault lies unfortunately with the crew.

We find crews will ask anyone to help them improve their CTOT, and don't realise that we ( ATC and Ops ) are probably going to be delaying the same plan !

We'll also often find that the EOBT is amended without our knowledge by the local ATC. Why ? Same reasons as above. It's easier for the crews to call ATC on the R/T than Ops on the mobile or via ACARS. Then if they get hammered, you're also likely to get the same intolerance because of the new delay. This is crew laziness and ignorance ! Nothing more or less. We are often reminding crews to call us first if they need a CTOT/EOBT amendment, before speaking to ATC. That way we can give them an idea of what the tactical situation is should they delay on the same route.

If this particular crew blamed ATC, then that's arrogance on their part. And if the Ops Mngr did the same, then ditto IMHO !

Luckily, my dealings with London FMP and most local units ( apart from MAD !! ) have been more than helpfull.

SN, fair point about incorrect types on FPLs etc. One airline that subbed for us recently seem to fit that profile perfectly unfortunately. As said before, ops aren't perfect.

However, most majors these days ( incl the much maligned LCAs ) spend a lot of time and money on developing their own ATC Cells. These guys are H24 dedicated to improving the slot management, ATC co-ord and route efficiency of the overall operation.

[pushapproved]

From an ATC point of view, all we want to do is give the best possible service to our customers and keep everybody happy. The way it seems to be going recently I can see us saying to the crews, "you're not going to make the slot, contact company to sort it out", and not get involved!
You can't please everybody all of the time, even with your best efforts!

[ghost-rider]

pushapproved, that's a fair point.

As usual, it's the few lazy sods that are making it difficult for others.

Let's hope it deosn't get to that stage.

[controller friendly]

SN

U little (sorry rotund!) devil, you're at it again.

Relax everyone he just gets immense pleasure from winding you all up. I don't think he really cares, he's just bored!:p ;)

CF

[Standard Noise]

No, No, damn you woman, you've let my secret out!!!!!

Still, last night it happened again. Flight on daily mayfly - pilot calls for start with 54 lumps of SLF in the back- no flight plan in the system (what a suprise) cos the airline ops have fallen asleep yet again!!! Ops wouldn't answer the phone, so we took it upon ourselves to put in a plan (risking the wrath of some, wait for it, halfwitted ops manager!!!). FPL goes through the system with it's customary speed - not, and the flight finally departs half an hour late. The airline incurs a charge for extending the airport opening hours, and all because the ops crew couldn't be ARSED doing their job properly - nuff said!!!:D :D


On the other hand, I phoned the local depatchers for one of our based airlines the other day and let them know a slot was running out, and did they want us to get a new one? (I've been feeling generous of late). No came the reply, we're looking for 1 more pax then he'll push back. With 8 mins to go, the a/c pushed, but with the best will in the world, he wasn't going to make it. However, rather than risk a new, possibly much later slot, I let him go X mins out of slot tolerance. It was easier for everyone, but I don't make a habit of it!