FAA/IR training in the UK

[felixflyer]

Hi

I am currently looking into doing my FAA/IR in the UK with a view to converting to JAR later.

One of the problems I have is that a lot of my XC time doesn't count as it was just out to a waypoint and back without the landaway. This means I am about 10 hours short. I take it the requirement is in order to sit the test?

Could I just landaway somewhere 50nm or more away in my training fights and then do the test once I am ready?

Also, does anybody know the latest news on FAA/IR examiners over here?

[B2N2]

If you do your FAA Instrumnet training under Part 141 you are somewhat stuck to a syllabus but there is no requirement for the 50 hrs XC.
I vaguely recall we discussed this earlier already.
The 50 NM crosscountry requirement only applies for training conducted under part 61.

But you've come up with a good solution; I would highly encourage to do as many cross countries under IFR as you can.

[felixflyer]

Thanks, just got a share in an N reg aircraft so will be using it in anger before converting rather than just as a stepping stone to the EASA IR.

[peterh337]

These people (http://www.taauk.net/) might be able to help.

[sapperkenno]

These people might be able to help
There are also a fair few CFIIs around the UK working freelance who may be happy to help, and may charge a fair bit less than £60+VAT. :eek:

A quick search of the FAA website brings up the following examiner:

HUGHSTON, THOMAS P
39 SYDNEY DYE COURT SPORLE
KINGS LYNN NORFOLK *PE322EE
UK
Phone: 011 447710564421
FAA Office: EA15
Aircraft: CE-421-421, DA-42-42, PA-34-200, PA-44-180

Also, see here for a link to §61.65 Instrument rating requirements (http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&rgn=div5&view=text&node=14:2.0.1.1.2&idno=14#14:2.0.1.1.2.2.1.4) to see exactly what boxes need ticking.

All the info on FAA practical test standards, rules and regulations is all freely accessible on the Internet. Also worth checking what TSA hoops need to be jumped through, and how to go about getting DfT permission to use your N-reg for flight training (where an instructor is paid) here in the UK.

Personally, I'd just go and spend a month in the States with a reputable outfit such as Chandler Air Service (http://www.aerobatics.com) and tie it all up over there.

[peterh337]

I did my FAA IR at Chandler AS too :)

Getting training towards the FAA IR, anywhere in the world, has never been a problem.

[custardpsc]

I looked at this too. The significant hurdles are tsa clearance, dft permission for training in a specific aircraft, the written exam and the examiner, of which there is only the one mentioned. Without dft permission you will have to position to france separately to the aircraft before training. Nothing insurmountable but about as much grief as going to the usa in reality.....

[proudprivate]

dft permission for training in a specific aircraft

is that a hurdle if you (partly) own it ?

[peterh337]

The DfT permission is easy to get.

They say on their website they will issue it only to owners, part owners (max 4 owners), or where the aircraft is Ltd Co owned the co. must not have more than 4 Directors (IIRC).

Janeen Kochan also comes over every once in a while, and TAA should know because they used to arrange it.

Without dft permission you will have to position to france separately to the aircraft before training

Who told you that?

[Fuji Abound]

I heard a rumour that janeen will not be over again - i hope its ill founded.

I met her last time. I think her visits are appreciated by many.

[custardpsc]

peter - a FAA instructor in the south of uk told me that. Without dft permission they (the instructor) considered even a positioning flight with a student to be aerial work . I wanted a few hours and a private check ride (so I can get rid of my 61.75) They apparently position to Le Touquet, you get your self there, and subsequently expect the examiner to attend there. They considered that it was an issue to get dft permission, although several posters here indicate otherwise, that may be because they don't actually own the N reg they were intending to teach in.

I did consider it to be a conservative response to say nothing of the cost and effort involved and that was a factor in deciding not to take that option but to go to the US instead. Regretably no checkride in the end due weather, but going to do it next time I am over there instead, hopefully followed by a chunk of IR training.

The other issue I found with some FAA training in UK is that some places quote only full day rates for instructors , not hourly. Not sure that works for me.

[peterh337]

It's obviously true that a DfT permission is needed only if the "aerial work" is done in UK airspace, but I cannot see why an instructor cannot be just a passenger on a preceeding flight - provided obviously that the LHS already has the required papers for that flight.

If an instructor could not be a passenger on a mutually agreed flight then any instructor could potentially never be a passenger and many flights would be instantly illegal for all sorts of reasons.

I hate to over-use the word "obviously" (one sees it on TV all the time, usually from less than bright people :) ) but obviously it depends on what exactly the instructor is charging you for. If he bills you a daily rate then calling himself "passenger" on a flight that day is going to be pushing it a bit :) But if he bills you hourly, and only for the hours takeoff-landing in French airspace, how can there be a problem?

Loads of UK schools do fly-outs where a group of planes fly somewhere, and there are several instructors "aboard" and predictably the whole thing is rigged so as to maximise revenue by putting an instructor in the RHS when there is a "student" in the LHS. That way the school gets the self fly hire rate plus the instruction rate, on every leg. But there is no presumption of instruction if there is an instructor in the RHS and the LHS already has a PPL, or whatever.

In the end you have to go along with the wishes of whoever you are working with, however.

[sapperkenno]

The other issue I found with some FAA training in UK is that some places quote only full day rates for instructors , not hourly. Not sure that works for me.
I currently charge £20/hour (Hobbs) at Breighton, and know of an American fella in Cambs who will instruct for free. So that's at least 2 of us to help swing things in the favour of people who don't want to be ripped off.

[custardpsc]

sapperkenno - many thanks - good to know that. Sadly I am a bit too far south to take you up on that but noted and will retain that just in case.

Peter - right on all those points. In the end you can only go along with what the other party is comfortable with. I did point out that one could travel as a pax on the positioning flight as long as one wasn't charged, and given that they didn't intend to charge for the positioning flight that could have worked, but to no avail. The instructor in the rhs if no charge for the flight would have also worked as you suggest, but if there was a charge for renting the a/c then I am guessing the dft question would have stopped that plan too. That instructor was 'hourly rate' but it all was just over complicated and didn't work for me, even before deciding how to get to le touquet and back under my own steam.

[Bob Upanddown]

DfT – It might seem difficult but after you have done it once, it is very easy and the DfT are very efficient.

I currently charge £20/hour (Hobbs) at Breighton, and know of an American fella in Cambs who will instruct for free. So that's at least 2 of us to help swing things in the favour of people who don't want to be ripped off.

I wish I could find someone like you.

The going rate for FAA instructors seems to be £75 or €100 for an hour which, compared to the usual club rate, is extortionate. But, as already said, some instructors want to charge for a whole day at anywhere between £350 and €600.

It is difficult to find someone who will undertake a BFR properly (I have heard stories of people not passing their BFR which is not how I understood it should work) since some of the established schools with FAA instructors have stopped offering this service or have ceased trading. So the charges seem to be just a question of economics – increasing cost of an increasingly rare resource.

If nothing changes in EASA world, I do not see much of a demand for FAA training in Europe. The only thing we will need an FAA instructor for is going to be the BFR and the odd extra rating. So maybe the FAA instructor will be come more scarce?

[peterh337]

You don't need an "FAA" instructor. The FARs accept non-US training wholly. Countless people - myself included - have done an FAA PPL, wholly in the UK, using their UK PPL training logbook entries towards any required logbook entries. And countless more people have done licenses and ratings in the USA for which previous UK and other ICAO training was accepted without a question. I have never heard of anybody whose non-US training was not accepted in the USA. It has been normal (no idea if it is now) to do an FAA PPL in the UK with just a few hours' training with an FAA CFI and the checkride with a DPE, so the 45 hours of UK training (in a G-reg C152 with a UK/JAA instructor, etc etc) was wholly accepted.

The only thing for which you need an FAA instructor is the last 3 hours (within the 60 days preceeding the checkride, etc).

So, training towards any FAA license or a rating has never been an issue, in Europe - except for those who don't know the options :) What has always been an issue is getting the checkride, and that part of it has been good at times and bad at other times, with many people having trained up here and then found that the checkride option they had lined up has vapourised.

This is why I recommend anybody wanting FAA papers to get their ducks in a row over here (medical, exam, etc) and then go to the USA and do it all out there in one concentrated stint. You benefit all round, from the well organised training at a proper school, from the lack of distractions, and you get cheap flying compared to here. The obvious exception is if you really want to do it in your own aircraft...

This is an area where a number of people posting on forums have received some very nasty threats so everybody who knows anything about it will always just be skirting around the issues when writing in a public forum.

Interesting point about not passing a BFR. AFAIK an FAA CFI does not have the authority to revoke your Private Certificate (an FAA PPL) after a flight. But he doesn't have to sign you off...

[custardpsc]

peter - I agree with you re FAA accepting ppl icao training (although I think there are issues with IR training ?). The only DPE in the UK appears to disagree with you... so we are back to 'you can only work with what the other party is comfortable with' . There are a number of other "FACTS" on his website that are actually Opinions but the one that disagrees with you is as below. I think it is an over zealous interpretation of 61.41. Surely it actually means they can sign your logbook to show the training given, but that they cannot perform other duties required under CFRs ie BFRs for example. It does not say the bit in bold below...

NON-FAA Flight Instructors - The FARs do not allow for the core training to be done by a non-FAA instructor and never have. Everywhere the FARs refer to an authorized instructor it means a current and authorized FAA instructor. Although CFR 61.41 indicates that training given by a non-FAA instructor MAY be credited toward the requirements of a pilot certificate or rating, it only authorizes a non-FAA instructor to give endorsements for training given toward the proficiency level required for the flight test and NOT the minimum core hours required to be given by an FAA Instructor! Furthermore, if the non- FAA instructor cannot give the same training for the award of the equivalent non- FAA license or ratings then he is not authorized to give FAA training for FAA ratings or licenses.

[peterh337]

No comment.

Or, I refer you to my earlier post that you should go to the USA, unless desperate to do it in your own plane.

And, once going to the USA, there isn't a huge point in doing any flying over here, is there? Maybe some specific flights to kill logbook entry requirements, like the 300nm FAA CPL X/C job with 3 landings, which you can probably knock off on some trip by landing in two extra pointless places.

The quite unsatisfactory European situation is mirrored by a very satisfactory one in doing it in the USA :)