The True £Saving Of Modular Over Integrated

[TheAeronaut]

Hello all,

Just looking for some confirmation really. I've read many posts on here and have done a lot of my own research into the subject, but could a few of you with experience in the field double check my figures please? I haven't seen anyone that summarises what I'm looking for yet.

I'm 18 and considering whether to go modular or integrated, so I've planned out the total, finalised cost of each. I've used the same FTO to make it a fair comparison, and also out of personal preference having been to many open days.

Integrated:

£250 - Skills Assessment
£79,800 - CAEOAA APPFO
£4,950 - Accomodation (UK, 11 months)
£8,000 - Living Expenses (UK/AZ, 16 months)

£27,500 - Type Rating with UK Airline
£341 - Class 1 Medical Initial
£150 - Class 1 Medical Renewal

Integrated Total: £120,991


Modular:

£9,450 - PPL (45 hours) at Local School
£14,175 - 105 Hours (Hour Building at Local School)
£4,800 - ATPL Theory Exams at CAEOAA
£35,000 - Waypoint Course (CPL/IR/ME) at CAEOAA
£2,000 - JOC at CAEOAA
£3,600 - Accomodation (UK, 8 months)
£4,050 - Living Expenses (UK/AZ, 9 months)

£27,500 - Type Rating with UK Airline
£341 - Class 1 Medical Initial
£150 - Class 1 Medical Renewal

Modular Total: £101,066

Total saving of Modular over Integrated: £19,925.

Would appreciate any thoughts/opinions on this, and how close I am to other people's estimates/actual costs.

[Gazeem]

Have you looked at a modular course anywhere else?? You could easily save enough cash to pay for a TR down the line. (Hopefully by the time you finish training the industry will have sorted itself out and be paying for TRs!!)

[Bealzebub]

Whilst I am sure that your figures are broadbrush accurate, what are they based on? By that I mean what do you want to do then?

The "UK airline type rating" isn't some sort of passport into an airline career.
Most airlines are also TRTO's and have little problem type rating their own job candidates. For jobs that require a type rating, they usually also require commensurate experience (minimum 500 to 1000 hours on type.) Where the type rating is supplied by the airline, it is normally by way of a contract or "bonding" agreement. There are companies that will require an applicant to pay in full or in part, for their type rating training, but those companies are usually looking for experienced applicants in the first place.

For cadet programmes, it normally requires the applicant to have completed a recognised course of training at an affiliated training organisation. Those cadet programmes may or may not require an applicant to fund their own type rating.

How do these figures stack up for a cadet training course at a well know FTO specialising in these type of courses.

Training bond £69,000
Foundation course £10,000
Accomodation costs (included)
Living expenses £8,000
Misc insurances etc. £4,000
MCC + JOC (included)
A320 Type rating (included*) * Subject to placement airline
500 hours line experience as cadet (included and part remunerated by Airline and Training bond)
Contract of employment (depending on airlines requirements at that point.)

Total.... £91,000 and the good possibility of a placement and subsequent career with an airline at completion.


Something else to consider?

[BerksFlyer]

I know you're talking about CTC Wings. I'm not sure why you still refer to the £69k as a 'training bond'.

Was it not originally referred to as such because it was repaid fully upon placement with an airline?


500 hours line experience as cadet (included and part remunerated by Airline and Training bond)

Knowing that proper employment and full bond repayment upon placement is a thing of the past where Wings is concerned (and that you're alluding to Flexi), how much of the bond is repaid as mentioned above?

[pudoc]

My modular training will come no where near that figure including food, accommodation, all fees etc.

[Bealzebub]

I know you're talking about CTC Wings. I'm not sure why you still refer to the £69k as a 'training bond'

It isn't how "I refer to it," it is how they refer to it. I believe it has implications for the recovery of tax where subsequent salary sacrifice is used to discharge "the bond."

I wasn't referring to "flexi," and indeed different programmes utilize different arrangements. In the examples of which I am aware, I believe the sum is around 12% within six months, and the balance is discharged as mentioned above, once on an employment contract.


"Flexicrew" is discussed at much length on these forums, and may well employ different arrangements. Other people will have a greater knowledge of those arrangements than I do.

[mark_c]

The price you have calculated for going Modular is quite excessive in my opinion! Im in the middle of modular training and have estimated that i will have spent ~€55,000 by the end of it.

PPL (Irish FTO) - €10,000
DL ATPL (Bristol) - €2,500
Hour Building, 100 hours (IRE, Spain, Florida) - €9,000
CPL/IR/MEP (FTE Jerez) - €27,500
Accomodation/Living Expences and air fares in Spain and Florida - €5,000

I'll worry about the MCC and TR when it comes to it :) My advice is shop around, but don't just take the cheapest option! Best of luck

[flystrathclyde]

'Structured' Modular available.

Structured course start to finish - around £55k....

Google Air Service Training.

[Bearcat F8F]

I 100% agree with Mark C.

If you actually spend what you wrote down for modular training, you haven't done a great deal of shopping around.

Good luck.

[student88]

I qualified this year, modular, and it ended up costing me £50-55K to get from zero experience to CPL ME IR.

[i_like_tea]

The flip side is the job prospects.
Wrongly, a modular guy seems to be usually passed over and I have a few friends who went modular who wish they had paid the extra for an integrated course, as they strongly believe they would be flying rather than CCing now.

Plus and Minuses for each way to go.
No job is ever guaranteed and you need a shed load of luck to find one, and even more lucky to find one quickly.

I was integrated, and extremely lucky to finish training and then one month later have an interview at the airline I now work for. I did pay for my own TR but I am very much "properly" employed with the airline now. My overall cost of training was just under 100k.

[student88]

For as long as OAA/CTC/FTE integrated students are graduating only to pay £30K or so on a type rating and job i.e. EZY/RYR - integrated training holds no benefit what so ever over modular.

When BA start recruiting non-tagged integrated graduates, then the value of the extra expense is restored and the integrated vs. modular debate can begin.

For now however, neither avenue holds much hope and only the very lucky/those with experience/those with enough money to pay for a TR and job will gain employment.

If you can't afford to 'buy a job', now is NOT the time to start training because you will be sorely disappointed.

[kingofkabul]

I think BA can only take "non-tagged" students from CTC from now on. However I think it less likely they would recruit "non-tagged" cadets with such large numbers on the FPP. FPP costs (incl living costs) are around £90-95k so this should be your first port of call together with other "tagged" schemes if airline flying is what you are aiming for.

[M1ghtyDuck]

For as long as OAA/CTC/FTE integrated students are graduating only to pay £30K or so on a type rating and job i.e. EZY/RYR - integrated training holds no benefit what so ever over modular.Do you seriously believe that? Integrated is by no means a golden ticket but that statement shows a serious lack of knowledge of current recruitment stats.

[student88]

Well, why not enlighten me?

Lets face it, at the end of the day we're all looking for a job with a respectable airline, aren't we? Why should I spend £90K going to OAA when I could spend £50K at SFC, I know students from both schools who have recently graduated, ending up paying £30K for a MCC and TR with Ryanair.

Same job, same airline, one paid more than the other. Simples.

[flystrathclyde]

There are jobs about - FACT.

I appreciate there is maybe not the pilot shortage to make it easy but there is movement.

Modular is not a poor alternative - FACT.

The majority of students completing courses with us are now now working is various airlines. All of them have obviously been Modular. We also have members who opted for Integrated who are still looking.

Airlines include Air Charter Scotland, Loganair, etc. Two guys who trained together with us were back helping us today with a charity event for Aviation without Borders; the fly with Jet2 and Ryanair.

It is not all doom and gloom!

[ACKAIR]

There are only four pillars of employment..stop debating...these are the facts.

1) You will get a job if you are a really good pilot (guaranteed)
2) You may get a job if you are very rich (although you might not keep it)
3) You might get a job if you are very lucky...although you might fail training, or IOE. prey you have a great IOE captain, or are really good!
4) You are very well connected...although as in option 3 you will get fired unless you are really good...

If you are really GOOD..you will get noticed eventually. In my airline, anything but 'really good' get's fired in week 3.

Don't worry about integrated, modular, yadda yadda yadda.. if you're any good you'll get a job. Cream always rises!

See the best of you on the line...not bitching on PPrune!

[ZuluZuluAlpha]

@ACKAIR what do you mean exactly by 'good/really good'-what makes a 'good' pilot...?:confused:

[mad_jock]

PPL in UK 6.5k to 7.5K depending where you go. You can get it cheaper in the US.

Hour building you can join a group you can get for 70 quid an hour wet or there are people who will hire you a plane dry for about 50 quid an hour (have to be a bit careful here we have had issues with advertising in the past) Or go to the US.

CPL IR

CPL with Airways for example £6100

IR either 15k if done first or £13300 if done after CPL.

MEP 3.5k

Only reason why I use them for an example is that I am very impressed with there product they are proberly not the cheapest but produce the goods.

Night if not done with PPL another 1.5k

MCC 2k

So your pricing is so so way off the mark.

If you are comparing doing the modular route at that particular school you are correct that its just as big waste of cash than self financing a intergrated course there.

[hingey]

Some answers are not to be found on Google.

Myself, along with several others I know, became hangar rats at our respective local airfields. Worked long and hard, got our hands dirty but earned favour and many free hours afterwards. Cheap PPLs and hours building, working 3 jobs (plus cleaning club aircraft, sweeping hangars etc) and you can get a fATPL for about £40k. You will make contacts who will be worth their weight in gold when you are qualified if you can make a good impression, the kind of opportunity you don't get at pilot factories.

Integrated, despite the marketing, offers no guarantees. Ryanair do not only take on Oxford's integrated students. I think ACKAIR's point is to with your attitude, both in the air and on the ground. If you have a good approach (no pun intended) to aviation and can keep your skills up, you will go places.

Good luck!

[BigGrecian]

I think your modular figures are way over and you could knock at least 20,000-25,000 off that figure if you shop around.

You didn't include exam fees in your planning for modular.

Sometimes they are included in integrated.

[felixflyer]

Don't forget you can work whilst doing the ATPL exams so comparing to the integrated course you would probably be in profit whilst doing this part of the training.

Look at doing the IR in Europe and you could do the IR for around £7000. Get a share in something you can do the PPL and hour building on and I think you could do the modular route far cheaper than some people seem to be suggesting.

You will also have the opportunity to meet many people in the industry and get your name known whilst doing the modular route as well. Its all about networking after all.

[mad_jock]

Thats because there is a major part of the industry including the NAA who doesn't want the facts to be out there.

They don't want the number of pilots starting training known and they certainly don't want the number actually getting jobs known either.

There is also the the fact that often quoted facts are actually taken from projected sales reports, which are reports of wishfull thinking.

To be honest posters on here are never going to change the thoughts of a 17-25 year old who has never had to work. I am not talking bar jobs and part time stuff I am talking about hard graft normal jobs. The marketing is geared to such people and it does work. I can still remember being suckered in by similar marketing when that age.

For a number of years I have posted past the original posters, my posts are aimed at the people who are going to provide the credit garantee for the loans.

I wonder how many students have gone modular or haven't started at all because the owner of the family capital has seen through the marketing and refused to put the whole family into debt possibly due to posts on here.

Unfortaunately it means that we have to continually reply to these debates just as Beazel has to reply so its not that negative. If he didn't his prefered method of training would disappear.

If you are on a tagged job scheme go for it. If you are self financed unless your family can afford to loose the lot either earn the money before you start or earn the money while you are doing the training.

There are thousands of CPL's out there that will never earn enough to cover thier training costs using it. Thats both methods of training.

[Bealzebub]

Unfortaunately it means that we have to continually reply to these debates just as Beazel has to reply so its not that negative. If he didn't his prefered method of training would disappear.

Silly statement! It isn't something I invented. This is the method of training that is utilized by most of the principle airline "cadet schemes." In fact it has nearly always been the historic methodology employed for fast track airline apprenticeships. People come on these forums wanting to know how they can be an airline pilot with 200 hours. The answer (for some) is through one of these airline cadet schemes. There is precious little point telling people that the schemes are available by "going modular" if they really aren't.

You think if I didn't point out the realities the "method of training" would disappear? You are wrong, it wouldn't! British airways, Thomas Cook, Thomson airways, Monarch, easyjet, DHL etc. They don't consult me for advice on their cadet programmes, but they all use this training method for their cadet programmes.

The vast majority of would be aspirants will select the cheapest route they can towards their goal of a licence. That is an economic reality. The realisation for many (who don't otherwise drop out en-route,) comes after they achieve their licence, and come to terms with the reality that having a 40k,50k,60k (or whatever) debt, is not a great accolade when the reality is that they cannot achieve these same cadet opportunities, more than that, they can rarely find any kind of flying job. The stepping stones towards their real goals, are few and far between, with some dangerous and very fast flowing waters inbetween.

[mad_jock]

Those airlines you have quoted don't require enough supply to keep even a fraction of the current training supply in your prefered method viable.

So although they wouldn't completely disappear they would be a fraction of the current over supply. And if there is another slump due to fuel price or some other global hit to aviation and those airlines stop the cadet schemes the future is grim for that part of the training industry.

Of course if the supply dropped to the current level of demand then there would be no capacity to ramp up production when they required more than the current.

We have no arguments about the cadet schemes if they can get on one go for it.

Its the self financing of the same training which needs to be highlighted as a poor investment of both time and money.

[Bealzebub]

In both my own company, and the even larger company that my wife works for, I know a significant number of colleagues who have children going through ab-initio training. Of the 6 that I can recollect, there isn't a single one not utilising one of the Big 3 FTO's. In some cases the courses are tied to placements (albeit with no guarantee of anything,) and in some they are simply integrated courses of training. In addition I know 5 in my company and 2 in my wifes who have children graduated from such training programmes and now in airline jobs.

Now to be fair, the demographic is families with high incomes and relative high net worth. Affordability is clearly less of an issue within this specific group. Nevertheless it is interesting that those with the experience and knowledge to form an educated opinion, are selecting this methodology. I doubt it is because they want to "waste 25K."

The truth is that the methodology is economically driven. I have said it before and am now repeating it, but if I were offering a fully paid scholarship via the route of an applicants choice, I would be amazed if tied integrated programme wasn't the first choice (by far) and full time integrated programme mopping up any stragglers. The truth is that it is only economic necessity that keeps the third choice viable, and just as well that the option exists. The reality is that the prime jobs at this level of (in)experience are subject to much the same criteria from airlines who benefit from the training but do not have to assume the financial risk. QED!

The classic self improver route was never a particularly easy path even in strong economic cycles. This was when a basic CPL needed 700 hours and an airline job usually demanded at least three times this level of experience. Now it is the modular (self improvers) who believe the "aerial work" 250 hour licence with the same name, buys them a short cut to the same route. It simply doesn't. Even the traditional stepping stone jobs of instructing, aerial work, bush flying, corporate, air taxi, third and second tier airline turboprop opportunities, are few and far between. Even then the 65% slash in licence experience requirements means that so many more people are able to compete for those few opportunities.

If you think the integrated training market creates a large oversupply (and it does,) it is but a fraction of the oversuppy created by a far larger modular training industry. In the case of the latter, there are even fewer opportunities and teaming hoardes of people fighting for them.

I always say to people "think what it is you want?" because the route will lie in that answer. Possibly saving thousands of pounds may well be sensible if all you want is a CPL/IR. However for many that is not the end goal, and for those people they need to seriously research the market and seriously consider their options.

[mad_jock]

Yep, but now that as you put it the, only way to jets is the cadetship method which I fully agree is the way to go if you get one.

There really is no point paying the premium if your not on one.

I think the whole industry has missed to boat and shot themselves in the foot by going down the cadetship route.

At least when you had to have one method of training to even apply you could sell this is the only way to have a chance, now if you don't get into a cadetship you have zero chance with the big boys and your at a disadvantage for other jobs because your training isn't suited for that enviroment. You know jobs that require you to know how to trim an aircraft and land in more than 10knts of xwind and fly a DME arc without a box of tricks to do it for you.

And the second/third tier is alive and well thanks with mod pilots getting work. Have flown/trained getting on for 20 odd different mod trained FO's in the last 2 years starting out and known of another 30 odd all flying Jet A burning machines. Each one of those pilots will be taking 30k odd out of the big school system. Alot of them did their 500 multi crew then went off to bigger things. Thats 1.5 million lost revenue which could have been subidising the training of the airlines which prefer integrated.

You should have a look how many logan and a few others are recruiting these days. It ain't as much as the loco's but more than BA.

I also know similar number of parents that have payed the dosh and wouldn't repeat the exercise. 2 have had to postpone thier retirements and the others now have another 10 years of morgage to pay off. And I will admit that 4 of them, the kids do have a job but the simple economics of having less than 2k a month income means they can't service the loans. The jobs they are in arn't ring fenced to one form of training. There mates are on the same money flying the same hardware with under half the loan to service.

I have also flown with 5-6 intergrated pilots who would have never dreamed of flying the heap that I do in years past but anything with wings and a couple of engines will do these days. The record is 165k euros of debt with 200k payed. He has a very nice license it has a citation rating, B737NG rating and a crappy turboprop. Which I might add excluding the base check on 737 was the most expensive rating to do but it was the only one he could get a job with. And the sad thing is he is chuffed to bits doing 500 hours a year getting payed less than he would if he had a made a career out of MacDonalds and vastly less than if he had become a train driver. Don't think he is to chuffed though having to put the bungs in and put the aircraft to bed in the :mad: rain and snow which apprently he had been taught was an engineering function.

If you are on a cadetship go for it with my full support.

If you are self financing and putting any of your familys capital online don't pay the premium.